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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 23:53:57
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| I guess we can close this out - No one can produce any proof that saturday is the sabbath but yet many keep it - why because the JEWS do. If you read the bible (not verse by verse but as a story) it seems that the Tribes (AND THE JEWISH BRANCH) are always in trouble - not in compliance with the law and being punished - so why follow them? |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2005 : 14:48:55
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
I guess we can close this out - No one can produce any proof that saturday is the sabbath but yet many keep it - why because the JEWS do. If you read the bible (not verse by verse but as a story) it seems that the Tribes (AND THE JEWISH BRANCH) are always in trouble - not in compliance with the law and being punished - so why follow them?
Not just because the Jews do, but also because the Romans claim it was the original Sabbath. Now, I don't trust Jews or Romans. Coming from a non-Sabbath keeping background (Jehovah's Witness), it is all the same to me whether it is Saturday, Sunday, or phases of the moon. I just want something from the scriptures that we can all agree on, so we can be in communion with each other.
It is far more important that everyone keep the Sabbath on the same day as each other, than it is that we keep it on some mysterious, particular unnamed day of Creation.
All the refutation of Lunarianism I found on the web have been very arrogant, unfriendly, and bullying. Saturdarian arrogance really gets my goat, especially since they insist on this particular day, and keep the food laws, but reject beard-growing, slavery, and polygamy out of hand.
If Saturdarians reject the things that are CLEAR and OBVIOUS from the scriptures, why should I trust them when it comes to something so subtle, which relies purely on HUMAN TRADITION? Why don't they see the contradiction? |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2005 : 14:51:18
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
Is the solar calendar in direct contradiction of sripture? The Holy days in the solar calendar fall on diffrent days but scripture states that each Holy season is on the same day every year? I have got a lot of emails with the same question so I will answer it here - When I say the moon is the clock I do not mean its rotation time or side real month or any timings except the human observation from earth at its rise and the appearance of it - simple clock it rises and tells what day and month it is - so from the first crescent rise to the next (1st pierod of the month) is 30 days. The moon circles the earth 29 times during this period but the human can only see 28 and the last period of the month can last 2 solar days - a sabbath season of 2 days - the last day being the "new moon".
Jambosas, tell me, when I look at the moon, how can I use it to tell what season we are in? How does the moon stand witness to the seasons? If I can tell the season from the moon, then finally we will make progress toward using the moon to tell the beginning of the New Year. This is important Jambosas. Right now the Saturdarians have a slight lead, but their arrogance is hobbling them. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2005 : 23:42:36
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| Hello LINC if you are still passing by here - the moons position in the sky tells what part of the year we are in - when the moon rises it also appears at a diffrent spot in the sky as the year goes by. The saturday people say their proof is that the Jews do it - but I ask you what was THE SON OF GOD teaching people (JEWS) that was so new during his time on earth (did they not know of the law?) - things they never heard of? - and how does a man just walk in and start to teach in the temple on a jewish sabbath!? |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2005 : 22:46:18
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
Hello LINC if you are still passing by here - the moons position in the sky tells what part of the year we are in - when the moon rises it also appears at a diffrent spot in the sky as the year goes by. The saturday people say their proof is that the Jews do it - but I ask you what was THE SON OF GOD teaching people (JEWS) that was so new during his time on earth (did they not know of the law?) - things they never heard of? - and how does a man just walk in and start to teach in the temple on a jewish sabbath!?
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining. I really need to start examining the skies myself.
One thing the Sabbath people have never taken into account is that God changed the calendar at the time of the first exile. He added five days to the year, and took half a day away from the month. Every single ancient people had to make up new calendars after that.
The Word says "He changeth times and seasons". We would be wise not to rely on calculations too much, but to continue observing the sky.
Jambosas, using the moon to tell the beginning and ending of the year, do the moons solstices happen near the time when the sun has its equinoxes? Or does the moon coincide exactly with the sun in its solstices and equinoxes? |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2005 : 16:18:02
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quote:
During the winter months the Full Moon culminates higher and higher in the sky until it reaches its maximum height throughout the year at the full Moon nearest the winter solstice. In the summer months the Full Moon culminates lower and lower in the sky until it reaches its lowest position above the visible horizon at the Full Moon nearest the summer solstice. So the Full Moons nearest the solstices do the opposite to the Sun which is lowest in the sky at the winter solstice and highest in the sky at the summer solstice. Whichever hemisphere you are in, the experience is the same.
Jambosas, the above quote is what my web searching pulled up. Wow! I had no idea.
I'm starting to get an inkling that the whole "calculated calendar" movement is an attempt to lead men away from God. After all, he SAYS he changes times and seasons. If people rely blindly on calculations instead of observations, they will miss out on his miraculous acts happening above their heads in the sky!
When you have to observe the moon to keep the feast days and high days, it is natural to notice other phenomena while you are at it. That way noone can miss unusual happenings in the sky. It is like a big natural television set that YHWH uses to communicate with us. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2005 : 11:49:54
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| The moon syncs up with the sun every 19 years - whats interesting is the moon rises at the same time every day in the 19 year pattern - ie if you take any day look up the moon rise time and go ahead or back 19 years its the same time. The moon is exact in time through observation from earth - just use it like you would a clock - if you can see it it will tell you the time - this is why I dont belive the month starts at a new moon because you cant see it. During your study of the moon always remember its observation from earth only, and you will see that its time is perfect so to speak. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2005 : 12:00:54
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| Yes its out of mans reach and after years of observation and putting together the 19 year pattern I can go back or forth to plot out future/past sabbaths. The moon is so interesting - it rotates from right to left in the sky but rises and sets like the sun from left to right. The reading of this clock (the light on the moon surface) is from right to left just like Hebrew. |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 02:18:06
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
Yes its out of mans reach and after years of observation and putting together the 19 year pattern I can go back or forth to plot out future/past sabbaths. The moon is so interesting - it rotates from right to left in the sky but rises and sets like the sun from left to right. The reading of this clock (the light on the moon surface) is from right to left just like Hebrew.
Forgive my ignorance; what do you mean it rotates right to left?
I found this newer translation of Sirach 43; it confirms everything you've said.
quote:
It is the moon that marks the changing seasons,
governing the times, their everlasting sign.
From the moon comes the sign for festal days,
a light that wanes when it completes its course.
Hallelujah. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2005 : 23:05:18
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| Please give me some insight on the change of the year during the first exile? The moon has no direct relationship to the sun except that the moon does account for the seasons. The moon is the clock not the sun .so solar day count does not a calendar make - the moon goes around the earth from west to east even though it rises and sets like the sun from east to west. The speed of revolution of the moon around the earth is such that it appears to be going the other direction. Do you have a copy of the bible put out by Concordant Publishing Concern? They have a concordant version that is very useful for study - Gen 1-7 will give some food for thought. My favorite is the epistle of Jude. |
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Manuel
Advanced Member
USA
762 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2005 : 21:59:07
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The following is from The Book of Enoch:
[Chapter 73] 1 After this law, I saw another law dealing with the smaller luminary, which is named the Moon. 2 Her circumference is like the circumference of the heaven, and her chariot in which she rides is driven by the wind, and light is given to her in (definite) measure. 3 Her rising and setting change every month: and her days are like the days of the sun, and when her light is uniform (i.e. full) it amounts to the seventh part of the light of the sun. And thus she rises.
4 Her first phase in the east comes forth on the thirtieth morning: and on that day she becomes visible, and constitutes for you the first phase of the moon on the thirtieth day together with the sun in the portal where the sun rises. 5 The one half of her goes forth by a seventh part, and her whole circumference is empty, without light, with the exception of one-seventh part of it, (and) the fourteenth part of her light. 6 When she receives one-seventh part of the half of her light, her light amounts to one-seventh part and the half thereof. 7 She sets with the sun, and when the sun rises the moon rises with him and receives the half of one part of light, and in that night in the beginning of her morning [in the commencement of the lunar day] the moon sets with the sun, and is invisible that night with the fourteen parts and the half of one of them. 8 She rises on that day with exactly a seventh part, and comes forth and recedes from the rising of the sun, and in her remaining days she becomes bright in the (remaining) thirteen parts.
[Chapter 74] 1 And I saw another course, a law for her, (and) how according to that law she performs her monthly revolution. 2 All these Uriel, the holy angel who is the leader of them all, showed to me, and their positions, and I wrote down their positions as he showed them to me, and I wrote down their months as they were, and the appearance of their lights till fifteen days were accomplished.
3 In single seventh parts she accomplishes all her light in the east, and in single seventh parts accomplishes all her darkness in the west. 4 In certain months she alters her settings, and in certain months she pursues her own peculiar course. 5 In two months the moon sets with the sun: in those two middle portals the third and the fourth. 6 She goes forth for seven days, and turns about and returns again through the portal where the sun rises, and accomplishes all her light: and she recedes from the sun, and in eight days enters the sixth portal from which the sun goes forth. 7 When the sun goes forth from the fourth portal she goes forth seven days, until she goes forth from the fifth and turns back again in seven days into the fourth portal and accomplishes all her light: and she recedes and enters into the first portal in eight days. 8 She returns again in seven days into the fourth portal from which the sun goes forth.
9 Thus I saw their position - how the moons rose and the sun set in those days. 10 And if five years are added together the sun has an over-plus of thirty days, and all the days which accrue to it for one of those five years, when they are full, amount to 364 days. 11 The over-plus of the sun and of the stars amounts to six days: in 5 years 6 days every year come to 30 days: and the moon falls behind the sun and stars to the number of 30 days. 12 The sun and the stars bring in all the years exactly, so that they do not advance or delay their position by a single day unto eternity; but complete the years with perfect justice in 364 days. 13 In 3 years there are 1,092 days, and in 5 years 1,820 days, so that in 8 years there are 2,912 days. 14 For the moon alone the days amount in 3 years to 1,062 days, and in 5 years she falls 50 days behind: [i.e. to the sum (of 1,770) there is 5 to be added (1,000 and) 62 days.] 15 In 5 years there are 1,770 days, so that for the moon the days 6 in 8 years amount to 21,832 days. 16 [For in 8 years she falls behind to the amount of 80 days], all the days she falls behind in 8 years are 80. 17 The year is accurately completed in conformity with their world stations and the stations of the sun, which rise from the portals through which it (the sun) rises and sets 30 days.
[Chapter 75] 1 The leaders of the heads of the thousands, who are placed over the whole creation and over all the stars, have also to do with the four intercalary days, being inseparable from their office, according to the reckoning of the year, and these render service on the four days which are not reckoned in the reckoning of the year. 2 Owing to them, men go wrong therein, for those luminaries truly render service on the world-stations, one in the first portal, one in the third portal of the heaven, one in the fourth portal, and one in the sixth portal, and the exactness of the year is accomplished through its separate three hundred and sixty-four stations.
3 For the signs and the times and the years and the days the angel Uriel showed to me, whom the Lord of glory hath set for ever over all the luminaries of the heaven, in the heaven and in the world, that they should rule on the face of the heaven and be seen on the earth, and be leaders for the day and the night, i.e. the sun, moon, and stars, and all the ministering creatures which make their revolution in all the chariots of the heaven.
4 In like manner, twelve doors Uriel showed me open in the circumference of the sun's chariot in the heaven, through which the rays of the sun break forth: and from them is warmth diffused over the earth, when they are opened at their appointed seasons. 5 [And for the winds and the spirit of the dew when they are opened, standing open in the heavens at the ends.] 6 As for the twelve portals in the heaven, at the ends of the earth, out of which go forth the sun, moon, and stars, and all the works of heaven in the east and in the west, 7 there are many windows open to the left and right of them, and one window at its (appointed) season produces warmth, corresponding (as these do) to those doors from which the stars come forth according as He has commanded them, and wherein they set corresponding to their number. 8 I saw chariots in the heaven, running in the world, above those portals in which revolve the stars that never set. 9 One is larger than all the rest, and it is that that makes its course through the entire world.
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2005 : 00:10:13
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| Hello Manuel - what is the summary of you post? |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2005 : 00:20:29
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| The moon does not fall 50 days behind in five years? so this statement is invalid? and it can be proven that it never has fallen behind so why the statement it falls behind 50 days in five years? The math dont work so who wrote this stuff? |
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Manuel
Advanced Member
USA
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2005 : 11:07:12
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jambosas,
Being that there was and is inquiries and comments on sun and moon, I sought to find and post interesting tidbits.
Now, the Book of Enoch is interesting being that Noah is said to be Enochs grandson.
Also, my knowing of planetary observance and its many rotations is not to be considered since I have never taken time to follow up neither scientifically nor religiously its significance. Even after 'roughing-it' for forty some days at a time on the vast outdoors. |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2005 : 23:16:13
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Although the book of Enoch makes for interesting reading, I am deeply suspicious of it and consider it spurious. Enoch is clearly in the solar year camp, as opposed to the lunar year.
Jambosas, the final item stopping me from switching from Saturday to Lunar sabbath keeping, is the Omer Count. Robert Keyser's explanations did not satisfy me.
How can seven sabbaths amount to 49 days, leading to pentecost being the day after the seventh sabbath, if the sabbaths are lunar?
This is really the final issue for me. All other arguments against the lunar sabbath, I consider to be well and truly demolished.
God bless and keep you. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2005 : 21:31:10
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| I have read Robert Keysers's studies, he has a lot of good data on early lunar calendars, but he still tries to mix a solar/lunar calendar - can you mix it? I dont because the math will never work. The Omer Count, is the issue 2 sabbath periods in a row? Count 7 complete sabbaths - 50th day or 50th lunar period? As I have stated before now where in the new testament is the sabbath ever called a day so what are you counting to get fifty days? I keep the lunar sabbath because I have proven to myself that the saturday sabbath does not fit or add up - to much scripture disproves the 7 day method. The Jews have rules on what day can be a Holy day? Glad to talk to you who seek the truth. |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2005 : 03:10:52
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
I have read Robert Keysers's studies, he has a lot of good data on early lunar calendars, but he still tries to mix a solar/lunar calendar - can you mix it? I dont because the math will never work. The Omer Count, is the issue 2 sabbath periods in a row? Count 7 complete sabbaths - 50th day or 50th lunar period? As I have stated before now where in the new testament is the sabbath ever called a day so what are you counting to get fifty days? I keep the lunar sabbath because I have proven to myself that the saturday sabbath does not fit or add up - to much scripture disproves the 7 day method. The Jews have rules on what day can be a Holy day? Glad to talk to you who seek the truth.
And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. Leviticus 23:15,16
That seems pretty clearly to me to be saying "the morrow after the seventh sabbath must be the fiftieth day". In the lunar sabbath, doesn't there have to be at least one sabbath every month that lasts longer than a day? What if the New Moon is not counted as part of the sabbath? What if there is an extra few days between the fourth sabbath of the month, and the New Moon?
Everything in the Bible appears to point to a lunar sabbath and lunar calendar, but I don't see any way that Leviticus 23:15,16 can fit into a lunar sabbath. Please help.
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2005 : 11:57:17
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| First can we agree that the verse you quote can be understood in plain english as count 50 days from the morrow after the seventh sabbath? If so then we need to take a closer look at what is a day. If we use the common Jewish understanding of a day then Lev 23:32 would put the day of atonement starting the ninth day not the tenth? Therefore for starters a day does not start at sunset as the Jews wish it? In Lev 23:23 The word day is inserted by the translater? So it could be read on one of month 7 - one what? A day or a season? (lunar season?). Just a few examples of translation that are taken for granted but is it true - does another definition work - to me a lunar definition fits perfectly. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2005 : 12:04:26
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| A clearer translation would be "there shall be seven flawless sabbaths. UNTIL the morrow after the seventh sabbath you shall count off fifty days;" Notice the period after sabbaths and the word flawless - could this flawless acount for the number of days needed to make a sabbath cycle? |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2005 : 14:55:31
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| Let me ask you a hypothetical question in giving a logical view of measuring time or anything else for that matter. If you have a common one foot ruler that has inches on one side and cm's on the other and you wanted to measure out 12 feet with it, Would you use the cm side of the ruler because it is a tiny bit short of one foot, but every 4th foot to measure you add an extra cm to make up for the short 3 feet you measured to come up with 4 feet and then do this over again to come up with eight feet ........ to 12 feet? Sounds nuts? but what do we due in the solar calendar - the same thing, even worse - when the months are set in the solar calendar by using the moon?? This is the ruler of time you are using when you map out the Holy Seasons. I dont see this type of instruction in the Bible? |
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Lunar Sabbath
