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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Oct 2005 : 18:00:52
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| Hello Manuel Is the sun off 5 days in 20 years - yes? In the long cycle of time the sun becomes unusable without man made adjustments as a calendar measure of time but the moon is in line with the seasons and years with no man made adjustments. Just a note here the sun is not the moving time piece here, It is the rotation of the earth that solar calendars are trying to measure with and it is not in sync with the seasons and has nothing to do with the seasons - it is the tilt of the axis of earth as it revolves around the sun that make the seasons. |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2005 : 13:39:08
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
Hello Manuel Is the sun off 5 days in 20 years - yes? In the long cycle of time the sun becomes unusable without man made adjustments as a calendar measure of time but the moon is in line with the seasons and years with no man made adjustments. Just a note here the sun is not the moving time piece here, It is the rotation of the earth that solar calendars are trying to measure with and it is not in sync with the seasons and has nothing to do with the seasons - it is the tilt of the axis of earth as it revolves around the sun that make the seasons.
Jambosas, just for your information, the earth does not tilt. It is rock-steady at the center of our small universe, and the sun orbits around it. The sheet of fluorescent daylight appears to orbit the earth independently of the sun. |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2005 : 13:46:05
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
First can we agree that the verse you quote can be understood in plain english as count 50 days from the morrow after the seventh sabbath?
No. My reading is that we count 50 days from the morrow after the first sabbath, and that the day after the seventh sabbath is the fiftieth day.
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If so then we need to take a closer look at what is a day. If we use the common Jewish understanding of a day then Lev 23:32 would put the day of atonement starting the ninth day not the tenth?
Not every sacrifice was to be done the way the Pesach sacrifice was. So then should we keep every sabbath the way the day of atonement was? The evidence of Exodus 12 shows that days were counted from midnight to midnight.
Think; the word midday is used a couple times. Did it not refer to lunchtime? The time halfway inbetween two midnights? If one uses the Jews evening-to-evening theology, then midday would actually be 3/4 day.
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In Lev 23:23 The word day is inserted by the translater? So it could be read on one of month 7 - one what? A day or a season? (lunar season?). Just a few examples of translation that are taken for granted but is it true - does another definition work - to me a lunar definition fits perfectly.
Thanks for pointing out the word day was added. So what other definition would you use to go along with "one of month 7"? |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2005 : 13:49:28
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
A clearer translation would be "there shall be seven flawless sabbaths. UNTIL the morrow after the seventh sabbath you shall count off fifty days;" Notice the period after sabbaths and the word flawless - could this flawless acount for the number of days needed to make a sabbath cycle?
Is the word flawless in the original? If it is, and if we can find other references to "flawless sabbaths", this might clear up the mystery immediately. If a flawless sabbath refers to exactly seven days, without taking any new moon into account, and if flawless sabbaths are different from "regular" sabbaths, I can finally start keeping the lunar calendar with a clear conscience.
God bless. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 22:55:30
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| I am not trying to change your mind just present a diffrent view and some facts and point out that a solar calendar is full of problems and plain english means diffrent things to diffrent agendas. The flawless is accepted by many but the view that a sabbath is a week is once again a redefine of the word sabbath? The sabbath is a season not a day or a week (my view) and is measured by the moon. Why would midday not be midday - if we redefine what a day is one more time, why not yes = no a few times? Yes I think midday is lunch time because in a lunar time calendar midday makes sense where as in a solar calendar midday has no place? Where I live we are tilted so far nothing works. Month seven season 1? |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 23:11:59
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
I am not trying to change your mind just present a diffrent view
That is too bad; I want my mind to be changed. I find the lunar sabbath idea very very attractive. But before I adopt it I want to be really solid so I can give a witness to others without having flaws of reasoning and errors of fact pointed out. I already have a rock-solid foundation for the lunar sabbath, I feel; but I want a titanium one.
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The flawless is accepted by many but the view that a sabbath is a week is once again a redefine of the word sabbath?
What do you mean "the flawless is accepted by many"? What is it about the phrase "flawless sabbath" that is accepted by many?
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The sabbath is a season not a day or a week (my view) and is measured by the moon.
That is a good insight.
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Why would midday not be midday - if we redefine what a day is one more time, why not yes = no a few times?
Because the Jews, who most Sabbatarians blindly follow, say that a day is actually night plus day. Making midday equivalent to sunrise.
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Yes I think midday is lunch time because in a lunar time calendar midday makes sense where as in a solar calendar midday has no place?
How do you figure that? I always thought midday at lunch time made sense because it is the time when the sun is at its highest point in the day. How does the moon relate to midday? Remember, I am fairly ignorant of the moon and how it travels across the sky. Surely it is not easy to tell the time of day by the moon? |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2005 : 21:37:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Linc
quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
[quote]Why would midday not be midday - if we redefine what a day is one more time, why not yes = no a few times?
Because the Jews, who most Sabbatarians blindly follow, say that a day is actually night plus day. Making midday equivalent to sunrise.
Forgive me if I didn't quote the above correctly...
And by only asking one question it should not be implied I agree with anything else written in the immediately above thread...
But where oh where do you derive your definition for "midday" from? From the English translation or from going back to the Hebrew? |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 14:48:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Walter
But where oh where do you derive your definition for "midday" from? From the English translation or from going back to the Hebrew?
From the English translation. If you are able to return to the Hebrew and it says something different, please share with us here.
Even if the word midday pans out, the events in Exodus 12 prove that a day ends and then begins at midnight. Kudos to Charles Weisman for popularizing this bit of knowledge. |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 09:00:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Linc
quote:
Originally posted by Walter
But where oh where do you derive your definition for "midday" from? From the English translation or from going back to the Hebrew?
From the English translation. If you are able to return to the Hebrew and it says something different, please share with us here.
Even if the word midday pans out, the events in Exodus 12 prove that a day ends and then begins at midnight. Kudos to Charles Weisman for popularizing this bit of knowledge.
(From Online Bible; it has KJV with Strong's information - download it for free.)
Three references in the whole Bible:
1Ki 18:29* And it came to pass, when midday((06672)) was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
Ne 8:3* And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday((04276)), before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.
Ac 26:13 At midday((2250)), O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
Going to the Hebrew/Greek isn't necessary or that useful in this instance, but the context of these three verses show it is our noon. Midday is the middle of the daylight hours, not necessarily the middle of the whole (24-hour) day.
Exodus 12 proves, rather, that the day begins at evening. Compare verses 6, 8, and 16: it's work to kill and dress-out a lamb "between the evens" (the correct Hebrew translation) which is eaten at night which is a new day of "an holy convocation" wherein no work is to be done.
Walter
EDIT: Maybe I should expand this a bit.
06672 tsohar {tso'-har}
from 06671; TWOT - 1883a,1883b
AV - noon 11, noonday 9, day 1, midday 1, noontide + 06256 1,
window 1; 24
n m
1) noon, midday
1a) noon (as specific time of day)
1b) noon (in simile as bright of happiness, blessing) n f
2) roof
2a) meaning dubious
04276 machatsiyth {makh-ats-eeth'}
from 02673; TWOT - 719e; n f
AV - half 15, much 1, midday + 03117 1; 17
1) half, middle
1a) half
1b) middle, midday, noon
The two Hebrew words translated once each as "midday" are usually xlated "noon" and "half," respectively. If one wants to say that "midday" being noon makes the start of the whole day as midnight, then the first word doesn't help you because it's just the name for noontime. The latter, however, would be useful if you can demonstrate it does not mean to divide only the light part of the day, which I believe it does. The only two OT uses of "midday" (above) show men are up and about from morning (Ne 8:3) to evening (1 Ki 18:29) - the light part of the day - and noon/"half"/"midday" is used to name the middle of it.
Do you have a link for Charles Weisman's article that you say shows the day starting at midnight? I'd like to look it over. Thx. |
Edited by - Walter on 23 Oct 2005 13:04:14 |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2005 : 01:35:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Walter
Do you have a link for Charles Weisman's article that you say shows the day starting at midnight? I'd like to look it over. Thx.
Alas, no. I was visiting a distant friend when I read The Sabbath and the Lord's Day, by Charles A. Weisman. It is in that book. If I had a copy on hand I would gladly type it in for you. If you can wait a couple weeks I may be able to find a copy locally.
However, the argument he presented boiled down to the fact that the Israelites left Egypt "after midnight", but they left on the "next day" after Passover. So they had Passover, toward evening, one day. Then at midnight the death angel struck. Then, within a couple hours, Pharaoh told the Israelites to get out of Dodge, which was the next day already. |
Edited by - Linc on 25 Oct 2005 01:54:02 |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 10:21:36
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| The bottom line for thoes who use the moon as a keeper of time, what a day is does not matter, when a day starts does not matter. The seasons to be observed are measured by the moon. The definition of day is in Genesis - and cannot be much clearer but those who need to use other calendars cannot use that definition so they ignore it? Between the evens proves nothing and also brings up another more clear and non twisted definition. Two things set every day, the moon, and the sun. The real bad definition of the sabbath is it is a week? We have already disproved that one - so the 50 day count for the feast of weeks? |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 10:24:20
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| NE 8:3 can be proof that the first sabbath is a midday to midday season. They read the law (a sabbath function) fron morning till midday? At midday the sabbath ends. |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 20:36:04
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
The bottom line for thoes who use the moon as a keeper of time, what a day is does not matter, when a day starts does not matter. The seasons to be observed are measured by the moon. The definition of day is in Genesis - and cannot be much clearer but those who need to use other calendars cannot use that definition so they ignore it? Between the evens proves nothing and also brings up another more clear and non twisted definition. Two things set every day, the moon, and the sun. The real bad definition of the sabbath is it is a week? We have already disproved that one - so the 50 day count for the feast of weeks?
Is a lunar day different from a solar day? How do you determine the start and end of a lunar day? What definition of day allows the lunar sabbath to work? And it has to be a reasonable definition. In India for instance, there is a group of people that reconcile the lunar and solar years by using a type of lunar day. Check out http://12x30.com |
Edited by - Linc on 02 Nov 2005 20:36:37 |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 20:37:50
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
NE 8:3 can be proof that the first sabbath is a midday to midday season. They read the law (a sabbath function) fron morning till midday? At midday the sabbath ends.
I'm pretty happy with midnight to midnight myself, based on Charles Weisman's explanation. Just because they stop reading the law at noon doesn't mean the Sabbath ended. If people are to rest, they need some time to do that, and to visit with each other, break bread together, and generally rejoice in our Lord's peace. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 13:36:04
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| But it could? The fact that the new testament in greek never uses sabbath and day together is a clue. The use of a day as a measurement of time is assumed. So if the sabbath is not a day then why would one use the (day) to measure it? With this in mind - I have looked around creation to see what tells time, the spin of the earth which is out of sync with the seasons over time, the rev of the earth around the sun which is also out of sync with the seasons over time (there goes the solar calendars), or the moon that is in sync. No matter where you are on earth moon time is the same. So the problem of when a day starts or ends has little to do with the sabbath if the sabbath is not a day. By the way the greeks do have a word for day so they were not limited. The problem with sabbath today is that the JEWS claim to own it and their definition is held in high even though they themselves admit to manmade calendar changes? But as we can see in Genesis the sabbath was in use long before the Jew and Jerusalem. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 16:53:28
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| II Kings 4:23 Is another example of a statement that would indicate that a day is not the understanding of a sabbath. How can you observe a day of the newmoon? |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 11:31:39
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| What would a person use for a calendar in the southern part of the globe where summer is winter? Would he use Jerusalem time? The lunar calendar has some interesting symmetry - for example the Feast Of unlvb in the spring in the north is exactly at the same time as the Feast of tab in the fall in the south. The first period of the year in the south is the same lunar period of the Feast of trump in the north and visa versa. Now with this exact mirrored footprint of time north and south, the meaning of counting for Pentecost can be speculated - but I have some more work (study of creation) to do before I put forth more on these possibilities. The great time piece in the sky covers the whole globe with the same rules of time? The solar calendar cant do this - it must focus only on the Jerusalem area??? micro calendar or global calendar? |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2005 : 01:26:15
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
I have looked around creation to see what tells time, the spin of the earth which is out of sync with the seasons over time, the rev of the earth around the sun which is also out of sync with the seasons over time (there goes the solar calendars), or the moon that is in sync. No matter where you are on earth moon time is the same.
Jambosas, you are making some extraordinary claims. Can you expand a bit on them?
What do you mean the spin of the earth is out of sync with the seasons over time? The earth doesn't spin, according to the Word. The sun, moon, and heavens spin around the earth.
What do you mean the spinning of the sun gets out of sync with the seasons? How? I thought the seasons today are measured by the sun, by the solar solstices and equinoxes?
How is the moon in sync with seasons in a way that the sun is not?
Can you post details of the method I should use to tell the current season by observing the moon? |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2005 : 02:33:04
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
Is the sun off 5 days in 20 years - yes? In the long cycle of time the sun becomes unusable without man made adjustments as a calendar measure of time but the moon is in line with the seasons and years with no man made adjustments.
Jambosas, what do you mean the sun is off 5 days in 20 years? Are you referring to the extra quarter-day contained in every year? The equinoxes are not calculated by counting whole days, so I don't know what you mean by the sun is drifting out of sync. Is there some requirement that the year be a whole number of days? Ditto for the month? |
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Mark
Senior Member
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2005 : 14:31:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Linc
The earth doesn't spin, according to the Word. The sun, moon, and heavens spin around the earth.
Linc, could you please indicate where in scripture it says that the earth doesn't spin; rather, the sun, moon and heavens spin around the earth. I would like to take a closer look at that.
Thanks,
Mark |
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Lunar Sabbath
