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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 13:07:26
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quote:
Originally posted by oneisraelite
Considering the harsh penalty for missing a shabbath [or shabbathon], one would think had Yahowah "demanded" Abib 1 to be a sabbath [or shabbathon], we would have seen Him emphatically say so, as He does at Passover...
Following that same line of reasoning, does that mean we were not supposed to infer the wrongness of lesbianism from the command against male homosexuality, and therefore lesbianism was not a sin until explicitly condemned in the New Testament?
I believe much of the Bible was designed for intelligent people; we are expected to make inferences and connect the dots. The problem comes when people read things into the Bible that it doesn't say. But we can always trust what it DOES say... if we connect the dots properly. Jesus did speak in parables; much of the Bible doesn't make sense until the history and origins of the actors and locations are known.
One example of inference. King Solomon was great-grandson of Ahithopel, a man so wise that his advise was as if from Jehovah himself. Was it a coincidence that God made Solomon the wisest man on earth? Maybe it helped that he already had a healthy dose of the smartest naturally occuring genes in the world, through his mother Bathsheba. To he who has much, more will be given... |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 13:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by oneisraelite
It is just that we, at times, get frustrated. It just seems that we all may never come to a consensus on any issue. Sometimes it feels as though we all simply try to justify our own beliefs, and regardless of facts to the contrary, will not change those beliefs. And I know full well that this may not be true of all here on Ecclesia.org, so we humbly ask that no one be offended by this statement. We are, at times, as guilty of this as anyone else.
Many times we feel that we all [self included] strain at a gnat while swallowing a camel. We make the above statements because we do not know if it is even possible to "prove beyond a shadow of a doubt" any issue, since Yahowah Himself tells us that the "interpreters" and "the pens of the lying scribes" have perverted His Word (Yasha'yahu [Isaiah] 43:27 & Yirm'yahu [Jeremiah] 8:8, among others). In a nutshell, we would like to see more time spent at re-establishing [fully manifesting] Yahowah's Kingdom here on earth, filling the "details" in later, though to be truthful we do not know if this is even possible.
Perhaps we could start by not judging victimless offenses, and when Yahowah Himself is the victim, let Him judge the offender. Our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees...Mattith'yahu [Matthew] 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven ...it does not mean that we have to be more "stiffnecked" [stricter], it means that we have to be more equitable, more just than they are, which should not be too difficult, since they are not just.
We perceive, however, that we may even get arguments against this, so where do we go from here?
Amen. I believe God led me to a part of his Word two days ago. In it, the apostle Paul said that we ARE being driven around by winds of doctrine, and this is because we, including Paul himself, can only see as through a glass darkly, but when Jesus comes again, then we will see all things clearly.
To try to arrive at the truth of a matter is Godly, and a Commandment. To argue, browbeat, manipulate, and coerce people into accepting your viewpoint is not of God; his word itself says "My ways are higher than your ways; tell me if you can the measure of the earth?" He confirmed it in the New Testament by saying "you CANNOT know all things right now, they are hidden". Many people assume this only refers to prophesy. I think it refers to more than that.
So, given that we are in darkness, but in less darkness than the heathen, where does that leave us? Judging just judgement, loving our neighbor, having an honest tongue, and not scheming to relieve our brothers of their possessions.
There are many good people on this forum, and I thank you for it. May Jehovah bless you all with his saving knowledge, a calm and peaceful heart, and material prosperity beyond the very limit, so you may have many wives, hundreds of children, and grow his Kingdom by leaps and bounds through home-schooling and total subjection and obedience to Him through his Torah. |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2005 : 14:48:46
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quote:
[blue]Originally posted by Linc
I believe much of the Bible was designed for intelligent people; we are expected to make inferences and connect the dots. The problem comes when people read things into the Bible that it doesn't say. But we can always trust what it DOES say... if we connect the dots properly. Jesus did speak in parables; much of the Bible doesn't make sense until the history and origins of the actors and locations are known.
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
In our opinion, Linc, you said much in the above quote and said it well.
Best Regards,
Marty
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Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 22 Jan 2005 18:53:44 |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2005 : 12:11:42
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| Cornerstone Foundation You have not proven that a solar calendar is true - I have given just 2 examples of many that disprove the solar calendar - you have not addressed these examples with any facts to support a solar calendar. We are to prove all things - if this is so why would you keep a calendar that cannot account for all of scripture? Any calendar that has to be adjusted is a true calendar? Until truth is revealed by His choosen leaders the only object in creation I have found to account for all situations in scripture is the moon and its actions. In the end I have tried to seek only provable truth and in so doing I have found that the sun and its actions to be easily dismissed? |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2005 : 13:15:28
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Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
jambosas,
It is good to hear from you. We have attempted to contact you several times privately to discuss these issues. Are you aware that the Administrators of this forum have provided an internal Private Message(PM) Inbox in which you can receive private (Non-Posted) messages from other members. We have tried to contact you several times, but our outbox shows that our Private Messages to you have not been read by you.
In this post what you stated is in black...our responses are in blue.
Cornerstone Foundation You have not proven that a solar calendar is true - I have given just 2 examples of many that disprove the solar calendar - you have not addressed these examples with any facts to support a solar calendar.
Please let us know which posts you made in which you "have given 2 examples" so that we may respond directly and specifically. Because of time constraints we have not responded to all posts to the extent we would like to.
We are to prove all things -
You are correct, we are to prove all things. We support you in this. Anything that we post should, in our opinion, be prayfully considered by you, asking Yahweh's Set Apart Spirit to guide you into all truth and protect you from any error in the content.
You are certainly on the right track there, jambosas. It is appropriate for you to challenge our position, just as you have done.
We will try to get the information to support our position for you. We have looked into these matters quite alot...but if we find we are wrong we are willing to change.
if this is so why would you keep a calendar that cannot account for all of scripture?
It is our understanding that the Ancient Hebrew Solar Calendar does account for all of Scripture. We look forward to discussing this with you on a Scripture by Scripture basis.
Any calendar that has to be adjusted is a true calendar?
We perceive that the Ancient Hebrew Solar Calendar does not have to be adjusted and that is one piece of compelling evidence that causes us to believe we should live by the solar calendar.
Until truth is revealed by His chosen leaders
Who are His chosen leaders?
the only object in creation I have found to account for all situations in scripture is the moon and its actions. In the end I have tried to seek only provable truth and in so doing I have found that the sun and its actions to be easily dismissed? 1/23/2005 Gregorian
Thank you for beginning to communicate with us on this. We sent some PMs to you previously...did you get them.?
Best Regards,
Marty |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2005 : 16:32:59
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| In this thread it was stated that Jesus ate the passover a day before the jews did - If you are talking about the last passover then we can start by going through Mark 14:1 - It was 2 days into the jewish ulb feast that they were talking about killing him? This is a long ways from the day before and a solar adjustment must be made here to account for this? How does your solar calendar account for this account in Mark? The two posts I put up were examples of seven days where no sabbath was accounted for? |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2005 : 17:03:22
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| Noah was in the ark for 5 months but he counted 150 days - if an ancient solar calendar was being used here and no adjustments made winter would start comming early? Once again no cheap shots here - email and message boards can make it seem so. |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2005 : 17:46:44
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
In this thread it was stated that Jesus ate the passover a day before the jews did - If you are talking about the last passover then we can start by going through Mark 14:1 - It was 2 days into the jewish ulb feast that they were talking about killing him? This is a long ways from the day before and a solar adjustment must be made here to account for this?
How does your solar calendar account for this account in Mark?
The two posts I put up were examples of seven days where no sabbath was accounted for?
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
jambosas,
In all fairness to Mark we should point out that the 1/25/2005 Gregorian post to this topic was not posted by Mark. It was posted by Cornerstone Foundation.
Best Regards,
Marty |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2005 : 18:41:20
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
In this thread it was stated that Jesus ate the passover a day before the jews did -
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
We do not agree with Walter, that Yahshua ate the Passover a day before the Jews did. We believe the meal he ate with his diciples was a Passover seder.
In a book entitled Fossilized Customs by Lew White, 2nd edition, the Hebrew tradition called a Passover seder is explained.quote:
From the book entitled Fossilized Customs by Lew White, page 76....
Many of you will differ with me, and that's fine, but it is my opinion that the "Last Supper" was what our Rabbi said it was: "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer." Luke 22:15. There is confusion on this. It is possible that this was what was called a teaching seder, as rabbis would commonly hold a seder the evening before the actual Passover, so the students could be with their families as required for the real Passover. We just don't really know. But how Christiandom has NO Passover is what is amazing, but now some are beginning to.
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
One of the most compelling reasons we believe, that what has become known as "The Last Supper", was not held on the actual Passover as prescribed in Yahweh's Ancient Hebrew Solar Calendar, is explained in The Biblical (Solar) Calendar topic of this Ecclesia Forum in Cornerstone Foundation's 4/02/2004 Gregorian Post at 4:57:37 PM. Exerpts from that post are published below.
quote:
Originally posted by Walter
Abib 14-15, the Passover
On the fourteenth of Abib, the children of Israel were to kill their passover lamb.
Exodus 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month : and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. ("in the evening" is really, "between the evens.")Exodus 12:14* And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Jesus the Christ, our Savior, kept the Passover at the proper time, as He must have to keep the law and be perfect; that 'Last Supper,' as it is called today, was a Passover feast.
Cornerstone Foundation replied...
Walter and Robert James:
Thank you for your posts (much..but not all..we agree with).
Your comments it seems would have Yahshua keeping Passover at the right time to "keep the Law and be perfect"....but His Father Yahweh not keeping the Law and not being perfect...
...because Yahweh caused his ULTIMATE LAMB, the one that all the other lambs foreshadowed, to be sacrificed perhaps 21 hours later.
Yahshua Messiah is OUR PASSOVER, the LAMB OF YAHWEH provided by our Father Yahweh to pay a price that was much too high for us to pay.
It is inconceivable for us to think that our Father Yahweh disobeyed the Law of Passover in that event.
With that in mind we think we should "go figure" and see how the rest fits and we encourage others in the ecclesia to help us with that.
Respectfully submitted,
Marty
Therefore we encourage you all to "go figure" and help us to do the same. We do not have this all figured out, but we perceive that we are getting closer.
Proverbs 25:2... It is the glory of Yahweh to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
Best Regards,
Marty |
Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 25 Jan 2005 19:01:46 |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2005 : 21:59:27
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
In this thread it was stated that Jesus ate the passover a day before the jews did - If you are talking about the last passover then we can start by going through Mark 14:1 - It was 2 days into the jewish ulb feast that they were talking about killing him? This is a long ways from the day before and a solar adjustment must be made here to account for this? How does your solar calendar account for this account in Mark?
OK, it says two days before the Passover, the Pharisees wanted to find out how to kill Jesus. How does this passage contrdict that Jesus kept the Passover two days/one day later?
Matthew 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. 19) And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. 20) Now when the even was come He sat down with the twelve.
quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
The two posts I put up were examples of seven days where no sabbath was accounted for?
I've already posted my reply to this. Are you saying that the passage somehow proves as incorrect a solar-based calendar's, but not a lunar calendar's, keeping the command for six days work then sabbath? |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2005 : 22:04:04
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
Noah was in the ark for 5 months but he counted 150 days - if an ancient solar calendar was being used here and no adjustments made winter would start comming early? Once again no cheap shots here - email and message boards can make it seem so.
Are you speaking of the "slip" of the start of the seventh month in my calendar understanding & chart? I admit I have no easy explanation, other than to suspect the were earth orbital changes caused by some of the then and later cataclysims (sp?).
The lunar calendar doesn't work for that passage either:
Looking at Genesis verses 7:11 and 8:4, we see that the one hundred and fifty days that Noah's ark floating ran from the seventeenth day of the second month to the seventeenth day of the seventh month - five (5) months. Examining the moon data sheet at nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/moonfact.html we see that the synodic period is 29.53 days. IF the month in Noah's time were lunar, then we would expect five months to be 29.53 * 5 or 147.65 days long; this could be as many as 149 solar days, if the fractional portion fell just at the end of the first and just at the beginning of the last days. 149 days maximum. But this falls short of 150 days, and unless other theories are offered with believable evidence, shows that the moon could not have been used by Noah to mark the months. (It has been offered that the moon could have had a longer period in those days, thus allowing five moon months to span 150 days. This requires the moon synodic period to exceed, by some small amount, 148 / 5 or 29.6 days. I'm willing to examine any credible data.)
So how would a lunar-calendar proponent explain this? |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2005 : 22:20:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Cornerstone Foundation
We do not agree with Walter, that Yahshua ate the Passover a day before the Jews did. We believe the meal he ate with his diciples was a Passover seder.
But didn't Jesus eat the Passover, and not a substitute, as recorded in Matthew?
Matthew 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. 19) And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. 20) Now when the even was come He sat down with the twelve.
You add your interpretation that Jesus as our Passover Lamb, had to be slain on the Passover. (He would also have to be eaten!) For myself, I say that I cannot know God's ways and despite seeing your point of view - I've thought about it myself-, I think it more important that Jesus remain perfect in keeping the Law, else all following would be vain. Yet Jeus did declare He was being eaten, didn't He?
Matthew:26:26 ¦ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27) And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
The kidnapping of Jesus happened later that night, and the actual slaying of Jesus took place the next day. This would be on the Pharisees' passover perparation day.
Remember, Jesus was selected twice as the Passover Lamb: 1) once by annointing (Luke 7:37-47; John 3:3-7), and the next day by the masses (John 12:12-15). I see two calendars being addressed here. To have Christ killed on the solar preparation day would not have allowed him to eat the solar Passover, but eating the solar-calendar Passover would allow Him to be slain on the lunar-calendar preparation day. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2005 : 18:09:59
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| The lunar calendar does allow this - there are 30 days (29.6) in a true lunar month and its been that way since day one. To have a earth orbit change or spin to slow to make your calendar work is what I spoke of before - you have to make an adjustment (somehow the earth changed) to make the solar calendar right? Besides when the earth was stopped for a while in the old testament (more than once) do you think it might have changed then?? A correct translation of MARK says 2 days into the feast not 2 days before. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2005 : 18:46:36
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| When I get home tomorrow when I can spend a little more time here I will lay out What the lunar calendar I use so you can see if it has merit. There is a lot to what the moon does so to put in a short statement is not possible. One thing about new testament dates that make things difficult is the belief that all jews kept the same days - even Josephus notes many sects that kept diffrent days. One thing of note on the moon is the light moves from right to left - it also goes from right to left in the sky even though it sets and rises like it goes from left to right - This really raised my interest so after much study of moon rise dates and times and human observation the math fell together - I may not be right or close but date anomalies can now be explained and to apply prove all things I have convinced myself that this could be correct. The real important issue for me is - is the sabbath a day or is it a period of time not bound by a day. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2005 : 08:24:42
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| Every 19 years the same day starts the year, in this 19 years there are 8 years with 13 months and 11 years with 12 months. The first day of the year is the first crescent after the spring equinox. Each month has 28 lunar periods - 4 sabbaths at 7 14 21 28Th moon rise - half moon - full moon - half moon - no moon(can be 2 solar days long). With this calendar the periods of the sabbaths and feasts are at the same time every year by lunar periods (not solar days). By eye sight one lunar month has 30 days. |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2005 : 09:51:55
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
Every 19 years the same day starts the year, in this 19 years there are 8 years with 13 months and 11 years with 12 months. The first day of the year is the first crescent after the spring equinox. Each month has 28 lunar periods - 4 sabbaths at 7 14 21 28Th moon rise - half moon - full moon - half moon - no moon(can be 2 solar days long). With this calendar the periods of the sabbaths and feasts are at the same time every year by lunar periods (not solar days). By eye sight one lunar month has 30 days.
Well, I've seen this information before in one form or another. But the same question you have about the solar calendar I have for you: Where are these principles laid down in the Bible? Or can they be inferred? If so, then How? I believe the calendar I provided a link to can be justified from the Bible for a solar calendar - I've tried to give the principles in this and the other calendar thread. I know no way to produce the calendar you describe from the Bible.
And to repeat a question: How do you handle the seven weeks / fifty days of Pentecost using this lunar calendar? |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2005 : 11:20:17
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| Does it say count seven weeks? or seven full sabbaths - and after seven complete sabbaths count 50 days. What is missing here for the lunnar sabbath not to work? 7 full lunnar sabbath periods then count 50 days? The fact that a month has 30 days is your principle - it is stated in the bible - I dont need earth movement to justify a solar calendar? I ask you where are the principles of your solar calendar when it states in plain english - a month has 30 days? Which is harder to belive a moon as a clock that fits all biblical situtations or a solar calendar that requires the orbit of the earth to have changed in the past? or adjustments every year to keep in sync. From a scientific point of view the sun and its (our) movement does not make a good time table on a round earth that spins at an angle - at no one point is a day the same but the moon is a diffrent story. If you just spend a little time with the moon rise concept and its observation from earth it should become clear that there is a clock in the sky that tells the time no matter where you are on earth - It cannot be just a coincidence. Please give one scripture that says the sun is used for the calendar? |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2005 : 12:46:17
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| In Esther 1:4 a description of a Persian feast as being 180 days. In other historical works this same feast is described as 6 months long. This is long after the flood but yet a 30 day month is being used so an exact earth shift as needed for a solar calendar must have happened after this time? Revelation 13:5 has 42 months and Rev 12:6 has 1260 days - if you belive these are the same periods of time then once again a month has 30 days. This covers scripture in the new testament that shows a month contains 30 days and the only way this can be done to keep the seasons in sync is using the lunar period (of which each one does contain at least one day) for the accounting of sabbaths and feasts. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2005 : 13:34:04
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| The lunar calendar for 2005 - day one of the lunar calendar sunrise on 4/10/2005. Passover is sunset on 4/23/2005 also a (weekly) sabbath (the second sabbath of a month is always at sunset). First day of UNLVB is about sunset on 4/24/2005 (MOON RISE about 21:30 mytime). The last day of UNLVB is also the (weekly) sabbath 5/1/2005 (MOON RISE about 4 A.M.). |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2005 : 17:58:26
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| In the works of Philo Judaeus Section 19 paragraph 60 he mentions that the word month means 30 days and at the end of this section he ends with God has appointed thses things and are unalterable for ever. This is during the time of Jesus. Whether you belive him or not is not the point but the fact that he mentions a month being 30 days as a law written by Moses and will not change is proof that the idea of a 30 day month was accepted at this time? many decades after the flood and after Moses. |
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Lunar Sabbath
