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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 22:13:44
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
Once again using the moon rise as a start of a period within a month and the start of the sabbath period there is no problem with when Jesus celebrated passover - if you try to count solar days from the first period of the month then yes but thats not what a lunar calendar is about. In the Concordant version (plain english) of Zec 7:1-3 there is no mention of an east gate or a sabbath day or even a hint of it so to tie it in as some kind of proof of a solar sabbath ? to each his own. Your definition of a lunar calendar is to start the month by the moon but count solar days? My definition of a lunar calendar is to start the month by the moon and count each period at moon rise.
So why did Jesus keep the Passover the day before the Pharisees did?
We agree that neither a gate nor a Sabbath is mentioned in Zec. 7, but we disagree on whether godly men would be at the temple on any other than a Sabbath.
Think about it this way, if you make an appointment with a doctor for next Wednesday at 2pm, but then you show up on Monday at 7:30am (before opening time), banged on the door, and demanded to be seen, what would the doctor think? The doctor will probably understand if it is an emergency, but if not and you showed up when you felt like it, the doctor will probably be miffed.
As I see it, God gave the people an appointment for each Sabbath (if they needed it) to come to the east gate of the temple for which He commanded that the Levites would have opened the temple doors. Now if as you claim, the men of Zec. 7 went there at another time and through another gate, what would God think? What was emergency that they couldn't wait for the Sabbath? |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 22:22:53
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
Is one of the rules reading the bible that first mention is the definition of the phrase or term. If this is a valid rule then the definition of day is in Genesis and it does not include night?
The way I read it, "day" applies to both the daytime and to the (approximately) 24-hour period. Just like we do.
5* And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
From the context and following usages, I think it undeniable that the 24-hour day starts at evening and runs through night then through day(light) until the next evening.quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
In Judges 14:12-18 An appointed Judge of Israel had a wedding feast for seven days, once again where does the sabbath come in here?
A Sabbath is a feast. So somebody decided to party/feast very much. I see no violation of the Sabbath, though maybe of the six day work part, but then I'd cut him some slack and say he's on vacation.
Your question applies to both solar and lunar calendars, yes? Or do I presume wrongly that the luunar calendar follows the sabbath every seven days rule? |
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berkano
Advanced Member
uSA
129 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2005 : 03:48:28
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Sabbaton Nutshell.
The sabbath is about this:
You do the work, then you rest. But first you must do the work before you rest.
The way of the world is to go in debt then work off the debt, never having any rest.
.Berkano
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2005 : 05:13:30
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quote:
Originally posted by berkano
Sabbaton Nutshell.
The sabbath is about this:
You do the work, then you rest. But first you must do the work before you rest.
The way of the world is to go in debt then work off the debt, never having any rest.
.Berkano
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
Berkano,
We agree with you.
Yahweh's Commandment recorded at Exodus 20:8-11 confirms what you have stated...
But it seems that many of our people have not regarded verse 9:quote:
Exodus 20:9
Six days you shall labor and do all your work.
To rest on the Sabbath is a command...but to work six days is also a command.
How does retirement and perpetual vacation fit into this scenerio?
Best Regards,
Marty |
Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 11 Jan 2005 05:14:31 |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2005 : 05:48:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Walter
Originally posted by jambosas
Is one of the rules reading the bible that first mention is the definition of the phrase or term. If this is a valid rule then the definition of day is in Genesis and it does not include night?
[teal]Walter wrote:
The way I read it, "day" applies to both the daytime and to the (approximately) 24-hour period. Just like we do.
5* And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
From the context and following usages, I think it undeniable that the 24-hour day starts at evening and runs through night then through day(light) until the next evening.[teal]
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
QUESTION: WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF NIGHT?
Definition:
Night...
1. is the dark portion of a 24 hour period.
2. begins one-half hour after the sun disappears below the western horizon.
3. ends one-half hour before the sun appears above the eastern horizon.
4. is 12 hours in duration only at the vernal and autumnal equinoxes.
5. does not have the same definition as evening.
6. contains only a fraction of the 12 hours called "P.M." or evening hours of each day/date.
7. contains only a fraction of the 12 hours called "A.M." or morning hours of each day/date.
8. will for purposes of this discussion be referred to as the blue definition.
9. is separate and distinct from the definition of evening and therefore is not synonymous with evening.
May we use the definition above for the word night in the discussion of this topic?
Is there anyone participating is this discussion that believes something should be added to or deleted from the 9 statements made above to define night in this discussion?
QUESTION: WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF DAY/DAYLIGHT
Definition:
Day/Daylight...
1. is the light portion of a 24 hour period.
2. begins one-half hour before the sun appears above the eastern horizon.
3. ends one-half hour after the sun disappears below the western horizon.
4. is 12 hours in duration only at the vernal and autumnal equinoxes.
5. does not have the same definition as morning.
6. contains only a fraction of the 12 hours represented by morning in each and every 24 hour period regardless of what month of year is occurring at a particular time.
7. contains only a fraction of the 12 hours represented by evening in each and every 24 hour hour period regardless of what month of the year is occurring at a particular time.
8. shall for the purposes of this discussion be referred to as the orange definition.
9. Is not synonymous with the term day/date.
May we use the definition above for the word day/daylight in the discussion of this topic?
Is there anyone participating is this discussion that believes something should be added to or deleted from the 9 statements made above to define day/daylight in this discussion?
QUESTION: WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF EVENING?
Definitions:
Evening...
1. is 12 hours in duration.
2. begins when the sun is straight up (i.e. 12:00 noon standard time... 1:00 P.M. daylight savings time)
3. ends at midnight (12:00 midnight standard time...11:00 P.M. daylight savings time.)
4. is 12 hours in durations every day of the year.
5. does not have the same definition as night.
6. contains only a fraction of the day/daylight hours of each 24 hour day/date.
7. contains only a fraction of the night hours of each 24 hour day/date.
8. will for purposes of this discussion be referred to as the green definition.
9. is separate and distinct from the definition of night and therefore is not synonymous with night.
May we use the definition above for the word evening in the discussion of this topic?
Is there anyone participating is this discussion that believes something should be added to or deleted from the 9 statements made above to define evening in this discussion?
QUESTION: WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MORNING?
Definitions:
Morning...
1. is 12 hours in duration...coincides with all the A.M. hours of standard time.
2. begins at midnight (12:00 midnight standard time ...11:00 P.M. daylight savings time)
3. ends at noon (12:00 noon standard time...1:00 P.M. daylight savings time.)
4. is 12 hours in duration every day of the year.
5. does not have the same definition as day/daylight.
6. contains only a fraction of the night hours of each 24 hour period called a day/date.
7. contains only a fraction of the day/daylight hours of each 24 hour hour period called a day/date.
8. will for purposes of this discussion be referred to as the purple definition.
9. is separate and distinct from the definition of day/daylight and therefore is not synonymous with day/daylight.
May we use the definition above for the word evening in the discussion of this topic?
Is there anyone participating is this discussion that believes something should be added to or deleted from the 9 statements made above to define morning in this discussion?
Respectfully submitted,
Marty |
Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 14 Jan 2005 07:55:55 |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 18:07:55
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| Walter - could it be verse 1 has nothing to do with the time frame in verse 2? Bethel is sending men to conduct goverment bizz on the sabbath? Do the prophets also live in the temple? I guess we can both read diffrent things so I think we have beat this horse enough. Once again if the light is day and the dark is night then can they both be day? or is there some other translation here that would not counter itself as to what day and night become? No one holds a wedding feast on a sabbath day do they? No one marches to war on the sabbath day? If Jesus was using a lunar calendar why would he be keeping the same passover as the jews they counted solar days? |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 20:27:34
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| In Gen 1:5 A more clear translation in english (not mine) "were the first day" is "day one". Now if the definition of day is light as stated before then saying day one has occured could also just mean day (light) one did occur. There is no reason to assume that day one includes the night? A period of light occured and it was day one. |
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 09:23:20
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Please pardon my intrusion into a thread I have no expertise in.
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day
Day, or the Hebrew word "Yom", signifies a period of time throughout the text. The context clarifies the length of that time period.
In Gen.1:5 the time period is specified as the evening and morning. To try to clarify it differently may prejudice the text.
A little dogmatic but the sun and the moon have not been created yet and without them you can't have a day.
TN |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 10:38:02
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
Walter - could it be verse 1 has nothing to do with the time frame in verse 2? Bethel is sending men to conduct goverment bizz on the sabbath? Do the prophets also live in the temple? I guess we can both read diffrent things so I think we have beat this horse enough. Once again if the light is day and the dark is night then can they both be day? or is there some other translation here that would not counter itself as to what day and night become? No one holds a wedding feast on a sabbath day do they? No one marches to war on the sabbath day? If Jesus was using a lunar calendar why would he be keeping the same passover as the jews they counted solar days?
Reading Zec. 7:1-5, I see no way to separate them as to time. Zechariah sent the men to the temple to pray and inquire, and the word of the Lord came to him (Zechariah).
Where do you see Jesus keeping lunar days as opposed to Pharisees keeping solar days? What is clear is that they were keeping different calendars/days. I don't understand where "lunar days" come from. There's enough evidence to point to a "day" ending at nightfall. I need to look for evidence that a "day" in the Bible really meant a 24-hour day, not just the daylight portion... |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 12:02:55
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Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
May we enter this fray with “our little box of evidence”?
Yom, or day, can mean many things, just as it does in the English. It can be, even when reading it in the context in which we find it, quite difficult to determine exactly which of the following uses of this word is being referred to.
H3117 yom
BDB Definition:
1) day, time, year
1a) day (as opposed to night)
1b) day (24 hour period)
1b1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
1b2) as a division of time
1b2a) a working day, a day’s journey
1c) days, lifetime (plural)
1d) time, period (general)
1e) year
1f) temporal references
1f1) today
1f2) yesterday
1f3) tomorrow
Now, "mid", as in mid-night, are one of two Hebrew words, chatsoth which properly means, “middle, mid-, half, division” or chetsiy, which means, “half or middle” which come from the idea of “to cut or split in two”, i.e. “bisect”. Midnight, at our position, is when the sun is at its most extreme opposite at the mid-day position on the opposite side of the earth i.e. it exactly “bisects”, or "spits in two", the light of the sun, and the break, or breaking away from this darkness (adversity), is “the break of day”; it is, we perceive, the very instant that the sun “breaks” across this most extreme position. From this point on the light is returning [though we cannot yet see it, so we must "believe without seeing"]. Is this why Merriam: of Magdala [Mary Magdalene] arrived at the sepulcher of Yahowshua, “when it was yet dark”?
Yahu’hanan [John] 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark…
We see that the word “early”, is the Greek word proi, 2) the fourth watch of the night, from 3 o’clock in the morning until 6 o’clock approximately – (Thayer’s), thus it appears she arrived, "early on the first day of the week", sometime between, what we currently refer to as, 3 A.M. and 6 A.M. From this, and the amount of time it would have taken her to walk to the sepulcher, we can extrapolate that she may have anxiously awaited, the instant the sabbath day ended, to begin her walk to the sepulchre; which in turn, if this is truth, it could mean that it had ended at midnight, hence she arrived "when it was yet dark". Had the "first day of the week" started at sun up, sun down, or noon, and she had left at that precise moment, she would not have arrived between 3 A.M. and 6 A.M., during the fourth watch, when it was yet dark. This means, again if what we have said previously is correct, that the sabbath day started at midnight the previous day (24 hour period of time). Is there any evidence to validate this? We believe there is.
It would seem that the people “…gathered on the Mount of Olives at festivals to await the opening of the doors of the Temple at midnight.”, which may be why David said: At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments. Psalm 119:62; and this may be why we were brought out of Egypt [bondage] at about midnight (our darkest our); and this may be why Shaul/Paul and Silas “…at midnight…prayed and sang praises unto Yahowah: and the prisoners heard them”; and this may be why it is written, “…at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.”.
How many of us will “go out to meet the bridegroom” at sundown, or at sunup, or at noon on the seventh day?
Yob [Job] 34:20 In a moment shall they die, and the people shall be troubled at midnight, and pass away: and the mighty shall be taken away without hand.
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 14 Jan 2005 12:53:58 |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 14:36:04
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quote:
Originally posted by oneisraelite
From this, and the amount of time it would have taken her to walk to the sepulcher, we can extrapolate that she may have anxiously awaited, the instant the sabbath day ended, to begin her walk to the sepulchre; which in turn, if this is truth, it could mean that it had ended at midnight, hence she arrived "when it was yet dark".....
From this point on the light is returning..... Is this why Merriam: of Magdala [Mary Magdalene] arrived at the sepulcher of Yahowshua, “when it was yet dark”?
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
We believe the answer to this question is probably ,“No”.
quote:
[brown]Yahu’hanan [John] 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark…
We see that the word “early”, is the Greek word proi, 2) the fourth watch of the night, from 3 o’clock in the morning until 6 o’clock approximately –, thus it appears she arrived, "early on the first day of the week", sometime between, what we currently refer to as, 3 A.M. and 6 A.M. From this, and the amount of time it would have taken her to walk to the sepulcher, we can extrapolate that she may have anxiously awaited, the instant the sabbath day ended, to begin her walk to the sepulchre; which in turn, if this is truth, it could mean that it had ended at midnight, hence she arrived "when it was yet dark". Had the "first day of the week" started at sun up, sun down, or noon, and she had left at that precise moment, she would not have arrived between 3 A.M. and 6 A.M., during the fourth watch, when it was yet dark. This means, again if what we have said previously is correct, that the sabbath day started at midnight the previous day (24 hour period of time)......
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
We believe that that the day/date began the previous noon on the Hebrew Calendar that Yahweh gave our ancestors.
We believe that the references in the Scripture to the “fourth watch” and to the “first day of the week referred not to the ancient Hebrew calendar but rather to the Roman calendar and/or the perverted Babylonian Yahdaim(Jewish) calendar that were the standards in Yahrusalem(Jerusalem) at that time in history.
Mary Magdalene was under obligation to observe the Sabbath based on that perverted calendar to avoid being punished for violating the Sabbath laws in that society.
To use those particular Scriptures to prove when the Sabbath begins and ends on the Hebrew calendar would in our opinion be like saying that millions of Wal-Mart cash register receipts for chocolate Easter Bunny’s and Easter egg dye, being in the possession of the Anglo-Saxon, Germanic, Scandanavian and kindred Israylites in America in 2004, are evidence that Easter Sunday is the anniversary of the resurrection of Yahshua Messiah on the ancient Hebrew calendar. The receipts obviously are not evidence of that.! The receipts are evidence that true Israyl has strayed from the way of Yahweh.
When the events referred to in Yahchanan(John)20:1 took place, our ancestors had strayed from the way of the ancient Hebrew calendar and were in a society that was living by a different calendar.
At the present time we find that most of the true Israylites on earth have strayed from the way set out for them by Yahweh on the ancient Hebrew calendar and are in societies in which the majority of people are living by a different calendar.
We believe that is why: Yahweh said through the prophet Yeremyah(Jeremiah):
quote:
Yeremyah(Jeremiah ) 6:16 …..
This is what Yahweh says: Stand in the way and look, and ask for the paths of age past times, saying; Where [is] the righteous way? Then walk in it, and you will find rest to your souls. But they said; We will not walk in it
We have not done an exhaustive study on this..but with what we have looked at so far; it appears to us that the understanding of a Hebrew calendar day/date beginning at midnight will not reconcile with other Scripture that states specific times and hours when Israyl was commanded to do certain things by Yahweh.
Therefore because we believe Yahweh had the calendar correct; that causes us to hold to a position that the day/date on the ancient Hebrew calendar cannot and did not begin at midnight and did not begin ½ hour before night.
Yahweh's eternal calendar for the Adamic Hebrew Israylite people is not effected by the fact that a Roman day/date may have begun at midnight or at 1/2 hour before the sun appeared above the eastern horizon and a Babylonian perverted Yahdaim(Jewish)day/date may have begun (and still does) when the sun disappeared behind the western horizon. Yahweh is Sovereign.
We have studied a large amount of time on these calendar issues and want very much to be in sync with Yahweh’s true calendar.
Any help that any of you can give us is appreciated. If we find we have been incorrect we will say so and adjust our living pattern accordingly.
We invite any and all to challenge our position on these matters. That will help us learn the truth.
In challenging us , however, it is imperative that the definition of terms be specific. Neglecting to do so, in our opinion, will result in a scenario where we will “talk past each other” and talk in circles perhaps for years and never come to a consensus.
Therefore you cooperation and patience is asked for and appreciated when we attempt to get all the serious truth seekers in this area of study to specifically define the terms they are using in the discussion.
Respectfully submitted,
Marty
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Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 14 Jan 2005 22:27:40 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 18:56:15
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Greetings brother Marty:
Peace be unto the house.
You state:
quote:
We believe that the references in the Scripture to the “fourth watch” and to the “first day of the week referred not to the ancient Hebrew calendar but rather to the Roman calendar and/or the perverted Babylonian Yahdaim(Jewish) calendar that were the standards in Yahrusalem(Jerusalem) at that time in history.
We believe that the Nagg Hammadi digs showed that there were two concurrent calendars being used and that Yahowshua and his disciples were using the ancient solar calendar and the Iewes were using a lunar calendar, which would explain them having different Passover days.
quote:
When the events referred to in Yahchanan(John)20:1 took place, our ancestors had strayed from the way of the ancient Hebrew calendar and were in a society that was living by a different calendar.
So what you are saying is that Yahowshua was using, and had taught his disciple Merriam of Magdala, the wrong calendar?
quote:
Is there any other evidence to validate this? We believe there is. It would seem that the people “…gathered on the Mount of Olives at festivals to await the opening of the doors of the Temple at midnight.”, which may be why David said: At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments. Psalm 119:62; and this may be why they/we were brought out of Egypt [bondage] at about midnight (our darkest our); and this may be why Shaul/Paul and Silas “…at midnight…prayed and sang praises unto Yahowah: and the prisoners heard them”; and this may be why it is written, “…at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.”.
How many of us will “go out to meet the bridegroom” at sundown, or at sunup, or at noon on the seventh day?
Yob [Job] 34:20 In a moment shall they die, and the people shall be troubled at midnight, and pass away: and the mighty shall be taken away without hand.
brother Marty, we would appreciate your opinions on all these other coinkydinks also. Thank you in advance for your time.
P.S. We will try to use more definitions in the future so that no one will be confused by undefined terms which may be misunderstood.
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 21:32:39
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quote:
Originally posted by oneisraelite
Greetings brother Marty:
Peace be unto the house.
Cornerstone Foundation had stated:
quote:
We believe that the references in the Scripture to the “fourth watch” and to the “first day of the week referred not to the ancient Hebrew calendar but rather to the Roman calendar and/or the perverted Babylonian Yahdaim(Jewish) calendar that were the standards in Yahrusalem(Jerusalem) at that time in history.
Oneisraylite wrote:
quote:
We believe that the Nagg Hammadi digs showed that there were two concurrent calendars being used and that Yahowshua and his disciples were using the ancient solar calendar and the Iewes were using a lunar calendar, which would explain them having different Passover days.
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
Although we admittedly are unfamiliar with the Nagg Hammadi digs, we would not at all be surprised to learn that there were two concurrent calendars being used in Palestine at the time Yahshua walked among our ancestors in the flesh.
We did not have evidence to prove that heretofore, but it was our perception that Yahshua would not be living and worshiping by a calendar that did not adhere to his Father's way.
Best Regards,
Marty |
Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 15 Jan 2005 13:45:14 |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 22:15:29
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quote:
Originally posted by oneisraelite
Greetings brother Marty:
Peace be unto the house.
Cornerstone Foundation had stated:
quote:
When the events referred to in Yahchanan(John)20:1 took place, our ancestors had strayed from the way of the ancient Hebrew calendar and were in a society that was living by a different calendar.
Oneisraylite had replied: So what you are saying is that Yahowshua was using, and had taught his disciple Merriam of Magdala, the wrong calendar?
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
No Robert, we certainly do not intend to communicate that Yahshua was using, and taught his disciple the wrong calendar.
We believe tha Yahshua was living by Yahweh's Ancient Hebrew Solar, not lunar, calendar. We believe that it is quite likely that he taught his disciples to live by that Ancient Hebrew solar calendar also.
We will say here that we do not see any Scriptures in the New Writings that record such direct teachings by Yahshua.
Neither do we see any Sciptures in the New Writings that would show that Yahshua was teaching, directly, that his followers should live by the Babylonian Talmudic Lunar Calendar or by the Roman calendar.
The point we attempted to make in our original post is that Mary Magdalene, regardless of whether she knew about Yahweh's Ancient Hebrew Solar Calendar was obligated to either refrain from making the trip to the gravesite and carrying a burden there because of the decrees in place by the leaders of that society who regarded the Sabbath as being from when the sun went behind the horizon on the Roman Babylonian 6th day of the week until the sun went behind the western horizon on the Roman/Babylonian seventh day of the week. The consequences of violating that perceived Sabbath would have been,at least, unpleasant for Mary Magdalene.
We think the scenerio was probably this. She did not go after the sun had gone behind the western horizon at the end of the Roman Babylonian Sabbath/seventh day of the the week because she could not get to the grave, do what she had to do there and get back before dark. Therefore she waited, slept , and got up early and started out in the dark on the Roman Babylonian first day of the week so that she would be there at first light.
We will add more to this later if necessary.
Best Regards,
Marty |
Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 15 Jan 2005 15:01:58 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2005 : 06:37:15
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Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, fellowcitizens of the Kingdom of Yahowah and any who may be just peeking in:
Peace be unto the house.Speaking of sabbath, here is a thought for this entire forum [self included]: if Yahowshua's sabbath was not the same one that the Iews honoured, in lieu of the several accusations by the Iews that either he or his disciples were breaking the sabbath rules, why did they not once respond with, "because this day is not the sabbath of Yahowah"? In fact, we believe the subject of which day was the sabbath was never argued anywhere in the entire Book of the Law [the Scripture], Old and New alike. Did Yahowah ever say, "Hey, you've got the wrong day!"; "Hey, you're supposed to use the New Moon!"; "Hey, you're supposed to start this at midnight!"; "Hey, you're supposed to start this at noon!"; and on and on ad nauseum? Not that we know of; He said, "You may work six days, but take the Seventh one off in Remembrance [as a sign] of your Oath of Allegiance [your Sevening] to Me" [Exodus 20:8-11; 31:16-17]...gotcha Chief! Thanks, much appreciated!
How many of us use the "seventh" day as a Sign, a Sign [Signal] to Remember our Oath of Allegiance; how many of us have even made an Oath of Allegiance to the King of kings and His Eternal Government? Most people honour Him and His Anointed King with their lips, or with water, or whatever, and then Pledge [their] Allegiance to a stupid flag! ...an idol!! ...a graven image!!! ...and remember to hang it on their house, stick it on their automobile or motor vehicle, even put it on the seat of their favourite blue jeans, and remember it at every stupid football game or baseball game!!
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge [G2919] you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days...
G2919
krino
Thayer Definition:
1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
2) to approve, esteem, to prefer
3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
4) to determine, resolve, decree
5) to judge
5a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
5a1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one’s case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
5b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
5b1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
6) to rule, govern
6a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants
7a) to dispute
7b) in a forensic sense
7b1) to go to law, have suit at law
In the words of Rodney King, "Can't we just get along?" It seems we never run out of contentions, whether it be sabbath, food, race, or whatever [We cannot agree on anything!]...Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the Law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Sound advice, Shaul, we believe we shall heed it. It is done!
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 15 Jan 2005 09:20:44 |
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Mark
Senior Member
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2005 : 09:05:30
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onisraelite makes a valid point.
Maybe the command is to simply work six days and rest on the seventh irrespective of a specific (man made) calendar. Even I am lord of the Sabbath.
Just a thought.
Peace, Mark
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2005 : 16:40:20
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quote:
Oneisraylite wrote:
It seems we never run out of contentions, whether it be sabbath, food, race, or whatever [We cannot agree on anything!]...
Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the Law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Sound advice, Shaul, we believe we shall heed it. It is done!
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
As for us and our house…
We do not consider our discussions concerning Sabbath, food and race to be contentions. We feel no animosity toward those of you who disagree with our current points of view on these issues.
In an environment in which the pure milk of the word is being fed… we agree that such in depth discussions on Sabbath, food and race would be perhaps inappropriate.
We agree with what Paul wrote to Titus:quote:
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the Law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
We do not agree that when discussions on this forum concerning the issues cited in a, b, and c below are discussed intelligently, politely and with a motive of learning the truth concerning them, that said discussions constitute foolish questions, foolish genealogies, foolish contentions, and foolish strivings about the Law.
a.) the issues of when the Sabbath of Yahweh is and how to properly obey Yahweh on that day,
b.) Which animals are clean animals and therefore food for true Israylites vs. which animals are unclean animals and therefore are not food for true Israylites.
c.) Which people on the earth then and now are members of which races Yahweh created and what the role of each race is in Yahweh’s plan and what the attitudes and “rules of engagement” of true Israylites with people of each of these races should properly be…and who a true Israylite may obediently marry and produce children with.
If we should ever post something that another member of the Ecclesaia regards as foolish, please bring that to our attention and we will take a hard looking at whether we should revise what we have written or delete it altogether.
If any member or guest believes that they are outside of Yahweh’s will by reading or participating in a particular discussion, that man or woman, has the prerogative and perhaps the duty to refrain from participating in that particular discussion. In our opinion we should each look at this on a case by case basis. May Yahweh’s Set Apart Spirit guide each of us in this regard.
Because the proper discussions have not taken place in years past, true Israyl is, in general, ignorant of and in disobedience to much of Yahweh’s Law concerning Sabbath, food and race.
We have not done a good job of obeying Yahweh’s command given through Moses at Dueteronomy 6:1-7:quote:
Dueteronomy 6:1-7
Now these are the Laws; the statutes, and the judgments which Yahweh your Father has commanded me to teach you: so that you may observe them in land that you are crossing over to possess;
So that you may reverence Yahweh your Father by keeping all His statutes and all His Laws which I command you, your son, and your son’s son all the days of your life; so that your days may be prolonged.
Hear O Israyl and be careful to obey; so that it may be well with you , and so that you may greatly multiply, as Yahweh, the mighty Father of your fathers, has promised you, in the land that flows with milk and honey,
Hear O Israyl, Yahweh is our Father. Yahweh is One.
And you must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all you might.
And these Laws which I command you this day must be in your heart;
And you must teach them diligently to your children, and talk about them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the road, and when you lie down, and when you rise up….
We are diligently seeking to find our way back to all that Israyl has lost. We confess our sins and the sins of our fathers in this regard. It is our hope that Yahweh may use some of you, who yield to his Set Apart Spirit, to say and write words that will help us find what is lost.
We perceive that is happening through the fellowship taking place on Ecclesia.org and we are abundantly appreciative of it. Much of what we have received has been through brother Robert and it is our hope that Yahweh's Spirit may direct brother Robert to participate in these ongoing discussions.
Respectfully submitted with Yahshua's words from the Sermon on the Mount in mind (Mattithyah 5:19),
Marty |
Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 15 Jan 2005 17:24:34 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2005 : 08:13:05
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Greetings and salutations fellowcitizens of the Kingdom of Yahowah, and to those just peeking in:
Peace be unto the house.
Perhaps I owe everyone here an apology. My words may have been too harsh and not well chosen.
It is just that we, at times, get frustrated. It just seems that we all may never come to a consensus on any issue. Sometimes it feels as though we all simply try to justify our own beliefs, and regardless of facts to the contrary, will not change those beliefs. And I know full well that this may not be true of all here on Ecclesia.org, so we humbly ask that no one be offended by this statement. We are, at times, as guilty of this as anyone else.
Many times we feel that we all [self included] strain at a gnat while swallowing a camel. We make the above statements because we do not know if it is even possible to "prove beyond a shadow of a doubt" any issue, since Yahowah Himself tells us that the "interpreters" and "the pens of the lying scribes" have perverted His Word (Yasha'yahu [Isaiah] 43:27 & Yirm'yahu [Jeremiah] 8:8, among others). In a nutshell, we would like to see more time spent at re-establishing [fully manifesting] Yahowah's Kingdom here on earth, filling the "details" in later, though to be truthful we do not know if this is even possible.
Perhaps we could start by not judging victimless offenses, and when Yahowah Himself is the victim, let Him judge the offender. Our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees...Mattith'yahu [Matthew] 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven ...it does not mean that we have to be more "stiffnecked" [stricter], it means that we have to be more equitable, more just than they are, which should not be too difficult, since they are not just.
We perceive, however, that we may even get arguments against this, so where do we go from here?
Again, I apologize if I have offended anyone by my writings.
Sincerely, brother Robert:
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 16 Jan 2005 09:28:34 |
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David Merrill
Advanced Member
USA
1147 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2005 : 10:04:41
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Maybe this will be helpful.
Look at the Active Topics for the past two months. Notice the number of readers in the "Views" column. Here you get a profile of what people are interested in here. Then look at "Online Members". Not just once but over a week keep looking. There are guests and you can even see what the guests are reading around here.
The interest is clearly about the use and misuse of identity - cybersquatting on an artificial entity - call it STRAWMAN if you will. The use of tradition (conditioning) to Traffick in Humans. It seems we all want to decrypt the CODE that keeps us in bondage.
I have been avoiding this Topic (except a short comment around Page 3) because I did not give any credence to the idea that Sabbath could deviate from the traditional definition. Or maybe that it could not be important enough if one was honoring the "spirit" of the Sabbath - to take one day in seven and 'recharge'. I have never heard of a dispute among people that "Today is Tuesday." --- "Oh no. You are wrong; today is Wednesday." I keep the download "Luach" from Aish.com on my desktop and it goes back to year 0 AD on the presumption the days have been agreed consistent the whole while.
http://www.aish.com/shabbatthemes/explorations/Why_Seven_Is_Holy.asp
I am formerly a calibration technician. I think that it is silly to create a new calendar for your personal use. It just makes you seem fanatic when you try to correct people on the traditional calendar. Right or wrong. But that is just my opinion.
http://friends-n-family-research.info/FFR/Merrill_AreYouLostAtSea.pdf
http://friends-n-family-research.info/FFR/Merrill_Diagram1.jpg
Now take for instance the Diagram 1 of the book, "International Law - Admiralty/Maritime Process - Are You Lost At "C"(?) by "AUTHORS UNNAMED TO PROTECT THEIR LIVES!" It points out, in conjunction with the text that most people traditionally fall into a trap. They figure the offer of Tax Court remedy is the only option just because the Treasury offered it like it was the only option. Now in the civil structure burden of proof falls on the Petitioner/Plaintiff, who is now the victim instead of the real mover, the Treasury. Bad deal; tradition.
Regards,
David Merrill. |
Edited by - David Merrill on 18 Jan 2005 00:06:55 |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2005 : 21:22:30
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| We do get along - thats why we can speak and respond to get at a truth. The first thing I would like to point out is that it is never written sabbath day is it? so to continue to assume sabbath day everytime we talk of the sabbath is you reading of scripture. Did not Luke write - prove all things and let no man lead you from the truth. The fact that you cannot prove that saturday is the sabbath means you follow an unproven tradition? Do you think the Great Creater of all things would tell you to keep a period of time as law and not give you a sign or clock to tell you when it is? The sun or solar counting of days does not work, using the moon for the first day then counting solar days does not work, using the observation of the moon as it rises to tell what period of the week and month you are in mathematically works. |
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Lunar Sabbath
