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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jan 2005 : 16:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Linc
Walter, I agree with you. But then why do all four of the Gospels say that Jesus was raised up after the last of sabbaths, toward one of sabbaths? (sabbatwn). I did read an article that made a good case that the Greek "mias" was used an an indefinite article "a", just as "ein" (one) is in German. How would that understanding affect the translation of the resurrection verses?
http://home.sprynet.com/~jbwwhite/HEIS_MIA.html
Taking all verses in the KJV which have "first day of the week" and examining the Greek, with reference to the article you linked, and changing the English translation to (as I see it) be closer to the original language: (There is no Greek word for "day" in this phrase in these passages - it is added by the KJV translators.)
Mt 28:1* In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward ((the first day of the week))ONE SABBATH, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Mr 16:2* And very early in the morning ((the first day of the week))ONE SABBATH, they came unto the sepulchre at the ((rising))SETTING of the sun.
Mr 16:9* Now when Jesus was risen early the first ((day of the week))SABBATH, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
Lu 24:1* Now upon ((the first day of the week))ONE SABBATH, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
Joh 20:1* ((The first day of the week))ONE SABBATH cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
Joh 20:19* Then the same day at evening, being ((the first day of the week))ONE SABBATH, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Ac 20:7* And upon ((the first day of the week))ONE SABBATH, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
1Co 16:2* Upon ((the first day of the week))ONE SABBATH let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
It may be helpful to note that there is a special Sabbath on Abib 21, before the regular, weekly Sabbath of Abib 22. This can explain why there is reference to the first Sabbath in Mark 16:9. It also explains why there were eight days between Sabbaths at John 20:19 and John 20:26.
Joh 20:26* And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
The translation of "first day of the week" is so bad that I have to admit my suspicions that a conspiracy was/is in place to convince people Sunday was to be a new Sabbath as if designated by Christ Himself. There is no scripture which suggests the OT calendar and Sabbath arrangement was to be replaced. The whole of the Sunday-sabbath arguments rest on inventive translation and a institutionalized ignorance of the OT calendar wherein Passover falls on a regular, weekly Sabbath. |
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Gold
Junior Member
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2005 : 00:56:05
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| I have read every dictionary I could get a hold of, catholic, seventh day, Jehovah witness, Jewish, Hebrew and so on and so forth. on the true Hebrew Sabbath and every one of them has told me historically that their (Hebrew) Sabbath was Lunar based. seek and you shall find the way. |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2005 : 07:46:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Gold
I have read every dictionary I could get a hold of, catholic, seventh day, Jehovah witness, Jewish, Hebrew and so on and so forth. on the true Hebrew Sabbath and every one of them has told me historically that their (Hebrew) Sabbath was Lunar based. seek and you shall find the way.
How would you explain the fact that Jesus kept the Passover the day before the Pharisees did?
http://home.earthlink.net/~walterk12/Xian/Cal/ChristKeptPassover.html
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Gold
Junior Member
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2005 : 15:34:05
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Walter;
I read the link and the guy made some very valid points, but I do think that he forgot some major points, that being that the old testament mentions Nemours times the new moon celebration and in some cases long before the Babylon empire. I have read one book that Semmes to lean towards the solar theory and that is in the book of Jubilees or enoch cant remember quite which one.
1 Sam 20;5 David said to Jonathan, "Tomorrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit with the king at the meal; but let me go, so that I may hide in the field until the third evening.
20;18 Jonathan said to him, "Tomorrow is the new moon; you will be missed, because your place will be empty.
Isa 66;23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says YHWH (JAHOWAH).
Amos 8;5 saying, "When will the new moon be over so that we may sell grain; and the sabbath, so that we may offer wheat for sale? We will make the ephah small and the shekel great, and practice deceit with false balances,
quote
5) I'm glad you want to wholeheartedly know the will of God, and that you believe the words in the Bible. So please answer me this on my third request: How is it that men are worshiping in the temple on the 4th day of the 9th month, when the doors were opened only on sabbaths? (Zec 7:1-2) This Bible fact appears to run counter to your posted understanding of the sabbaths. Please explain to me why this doesn't show your view false. I think it proves that 9/4 is a sabbath and I'm interested in seeing a possible refutation.
Zec 7:1 And it came to pass in the fourth year of king Darius, that the word of YHWH came unto Zechariah (a prophet) in the fourth day of the ninth month, even in Chisleu (something lost); [chisleu means something lost witch makes me wonder, what was lost.]
2 When they (Zechariah) had sent unto the house (court) of the Most High Sherezer and Regemmelech, and their men, to pray before the Most High, [if I were to go to the White House on the weekend they would not open the doors for me , but if I were a man of great importance thy would welcome me our my messengers in. if I was a recognized prophet with a message from the Most High]
3 And to speak unto the priests which were in the house (court) of YHWH of hosts, and to the prophets, saying, Should I weep in the fifth month,[ why did he separate him self in that month was it for the whole month?] separating myself, as I have done these so many years?
4 Then came the word of the Most High of hosts unto me (Zechariah), saying, [the word came not to the priest who were in the court but to the Prophet]
5 Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me?
I think on your quote, I just presented more questions then answers, sorry, maybe one with a greater understanding then my self will read this and give us some more insight. I do know that one will never understand the things of the Father, until the Father puts his spirit of understanding upon you and me. and we must not look for wisdom in the answers of men, but only in the Father and as he revels it to us.
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2005 : 18:49:28
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| Using the moon as a clock is a far cry from bowing down to it as if it were some god! Why would our CREATOR not give us a universal clock for all to see and placed where it cannot be changed. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2005 : 19:16:15
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| Zec 7:1 is a sabbath day? why? it does not say this is a sabbath (day). To assume it is may be the problem no? |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2005 : 19:20:42
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| The sabbath is not a day in a lunar calendar so to try and use a day as a sabbath will not work (once again my thoughts). The moon rising starts a new period in the month not a day. Sabbath day is never used is it? |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2005 : 23:28:49
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I should have done this earlier. I withdraw the fourth day of the ninth month as any sort of valid objection to the lunar sabbath.
I should have read the texts cited. Now that someone posted it to this thread I see clearly that the text said NOTHING about the eastern gate being open on that day. It merely says that some people were inside worshipping. Guess what, anyone could worship at the temple on any day. There was a "constant feature" there, after all, involving sacrifices of wheat, meat, and beer.
It was only the east gate that was opened on sabbath and new moon, for the use of some select individuals. THERE WERE OTHER GATES! The temple didn't shut down during the week.
The only remaining possible objection I can see is the passover anamolies pointed out earlier in this thread; if Jesus died on the 15th (a Sabbath), then why was it called the day of preparation? Why was the next day considered a sabbath? Even Jesus disciples observed it!
This passover objection may clear up if I spend a few days reading the relevant texts. Alas, I must go to work to pay my bills. May Yehovah bless your studies, and hopefully someone will come up with a good harmonization between the lunar theory and the passover account. |
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Linc
Advanced Member
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2005 : 23:31:39
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Actually, there is a second remaining potential objection to the lunar sabbath. Pentecost was to happen on the fiftieth day after a particular sabbath, and that time period was to include seven sabbaths. How is this possible in a lunar sabbath scheme?
I know it is currently dealt with by counting the sabbath plus new moons as one day, but can we really do that? Is there some scriptural precedent for it? How about historical precedent? |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2005 : 09:03:05
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"Gold" and others,
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
I read the link and the guy made some very valid points, but I do think that he forgot some major points, that being that the old testament mentions Nemours times the new moon celebration and in some cases long before the Babylon empire. I have read one book that Semmes to lean towards the solar theory and that is in the book of Jubilees or enoch cant remember quite which one.
OK.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
(regarding 1 Sam 20:5; 1 Sam 20:18; Isa 66:23; Amos 8:5)
In each of those four verses you've posted, "new moon" comes from "codesh" which is translated 254 times as "month" and only 20 times as "new moon." I would argue the KJV is wrongly translated in those 20 times.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
[if I were to go to the White House on the weekend they would not open the doors for me , but if I were a man of great importance thy would welcome me our my messengers in. if I was a recognized prophet with a message from the Most High]
Favoritism? I don’t think God would favor that. The Levites maybe, but not anyone else would normally be admitted, IMHO.
Repeating a verse posted by a lunar calendar supporter:
Ezekiel 46:
1 ¶ Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
2* And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.
3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons((codesh)).
And:
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon((codesh)) to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Lu 4:16* And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
People are to work six days and then worship at the door of the east gate on Sabbaths and new months/codesh. I don’t know of a verse that prohibits a non-Levite from being in the temple (going in through another way) on other days, but, if you treat the above verses as positive commands, doing so would be a violation of the six-day work commandment. The prophecy in Isaiah 66:23 and the custom was to worship at Sabbaths and new months.
I suspect pro-lunar folks want a verse saying the men of Zec. 7:2-3 were absolutely not allowed to be there, but I don’t know of such a verse at this time. Yet, I think the weight of scripture says being there at other times is "not regular."
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
[ why did he separate him self in that month was it for the whole month?]
Don’t know.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
[the word came not to the priest who were in the court but to the Prophet]
Sometimes our prayers work for someone else.
Walter |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2005 : 21:09:08
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| LINC If the lunar month is considered periods that start at moon rise there is no passover problem, it is when you try to count days. If you count 7 full sabbath periods and then the next period (moon rise) is the holy day. Since you have taken a scripture to try and disprove the lunar period as the way the month is counted let me ask you a question about scripture that disproves using days as the measure of time instead of lunar periods. JOSHUA 6:14-15 The vanguard marched for seven days in a row. Where is the sabbath kept in this set of verses? Only one way to accountfor a seven day period without a sabbath and that is using the moon as the beginning of a period in a month. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2005 : 21:17:30
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| I hate to be picky but there is more than just an east gate so what of the other gates? The sabbath had procedures to follow - all who came on that day would enter the east gate and some rules how others are to arrived. So to use a description of rules use on how to enter on the sabbath day, as the only way and only time (only the east gate is mentioned) I think is going past what that story is about. Once again just my thoughts. |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 19:58:06
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
I hate to be picky but there is more than just an east gate so what of the other gates? The sabbath had procedures to follow - all who came on that day would enter the east gate and some rules how others are to arrived. So to use a description of rules use on how to enter on the sabbath day, as the only way and only time (only the east gate is mentioned) I think is going past what that story is about. Once again just my thoughts.
To be equally picky on the other side of the debate, if God gave instructions to worship on particular days at a particular place, why do you think God would hold in high regard those who worshiped at their own whim and convenience? I think God would "not be amused," as the saying goes. Also, just my opinion. |
Edited by - Walter on 06 Jan 2005 19:58:49 |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 22:41:19
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| The sabbath was kept long before any east gate existed. The law has not changed has it? |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 09:09:12
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
The sabbath was kept long before any east gate existed. The law has not changed has it?
You're asking what does worshiping at the east gate have to do with the Sabbath? It is the place God said one was to worship. I don't see this as changing what one does at home, but when one approaches God in His Temple to worship and make offerings (Eze 46:2), I think one better do it the way God said to do it. The Temple is not some local church building where you might walk in any time; this was THE Temple. Even today, depending on the congregation, waltzing into a church's sanctuary is not necessarily done casually. If it wasn't a Sabbath, the men of Zec 7:1-3 would have entered the Temple in a way different and on a day different than God commanded (when they were supposed to be working) - and then to have asked God's favor?! I just don't think so. |
Edited by - Walter on 07 Jan 2005 09:09:53 |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 11:17:12
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| No Walter No problem here about how and when - The use of ZEC 7: 1-2 as proof that that was a sabbath day is what my thoughts were about. The east gate being open and it being a sabbath day out of those to verses is not in the story - is it? |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 12:27:04
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quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
...
The east gate being open and it being a sabbath day out of those to verses is not in the story - is it?
No it's not - does it need to be repeated in Zec. 7 to be in force? I think not. Is it a logical conclusion to make, that godly men would be following the instructions - though they may be recorded elsewhere - laid down by God? I think it is.
But even if we contiinue to disagree on the implication of Zec. 7:1-3, I believe the example given by Jesus, where He celebrated the Passover the day before the Pharisees did, is sufficient to question the lunar calendar. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2005 : 11:16:38
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| Once again using the moon rise as a start of a period within a month and the start of the sabbath period there is no problem with when Jesus celebrated passover - if you try to count solar days from the first period of the month then yes but thats not what a lunar calendar is about. In the Concordant version (plain english) of Zec 7:1-3 there is no mention of an east gate or a sabbath day or even a hint of it so to tie it in as some kind of proof of a solar sabbath ? to each his own. Your definition of a lunar calendar is to start the month by the moon but count solar days? My definition of a lunar calendar is to start the month by the moon and count each period at moon rise. |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2005 : 15:29:51
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| Is one of the rules reading the bible that first mention is the definition of the phrase or term. If this is a valid rule then the definition of day is in Genesis and it does not include night? |
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jambosas
Advanced Member
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2005 : 17:23:03
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| In Judges 14:12-18 An appointed Judge of Israel had a wedding feast for seven days, once again where does the sabbath come in here? |
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Lunar Sabbath
