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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Dec 2006 : 22:48:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Buck
Greetings brother Batkol!
I will quote from the scholars again, because I like brother Robert: may have it all wrong also thus we rely on other people to get it right for us!
Greetings! The problem here is you are inserting your set of assertions upon the author's statement. For example. When you see the phrase "Set Apart Spirit" in the author's work you then import what you assert to be the meaning of that statement according to your own theory. I'll address this more later.
quote:
I guess a layman's summary is when we are called to separate from the political State and serve Yahuwah in His kingdom we are translated to be under the authority of Yahushua who is our Prime Minister. We serve one another with love. We are the anointed in this age. The rule of law is what courts and politicians constantly claim all are under! Well the rule of law is the rule of Yahuwah as far as I can work out.
brother Rick, when one enters into which-ever STATE's court - be it the Roman Empire 45 AD or the USA 2006 AD - one is under the rule of law of that STATE. This is the hot button item right here. Paul saw no conflict to be subject to the rule of law of the Roman Empire (which over threw the Roman Republic, BTW) while being also a Citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven with no contradictions. What is the difference of submitting to a non-Biblical STATE in 45 AD vs. submiting to a non-Biblical STATE in 2006 AD?
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Greetings brother Batkol, be encouraged brother Robert:, sister Kathleen:, myself and every other believer in the kingdom want you here! But more importantly so does Yahuwah and Yahushua!
No doubt. brother Robert and sister Kathleen are certainly wanted here by everyone including me. This doctrinal disagreement need not be taken personal. AT ALL.
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Yahuwah does not give us bad government. We elect a government and we choose to operate under a constitution because we are incapable of self-government under Yahuwah!
Hold on here. That's not what scripture says. YHWH gives the rule to whoever He will. If not, please explain these many verses which state the contrary to your assertion:
YHWH is in total control of everthing without exception. Yes, even a demokraria:
Dan 2:20-21: Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
Dan 4:17 This matter [is] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
Dan 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
Dan 5:21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling [was] with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and [that] he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Psa 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.
Rom 13:1 - Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
I Timothy 6:15 ...Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords
Prov 16:4 - The LORD hath made every things for His own purpose, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
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We are cured through the purification of the Holy or Set-Apart Spirit. It purifies us. We obtain that gift by believing in Yahushua, we have the same belief he had that is Yahuwah will save us if we cry out for help!
OK. So how does this equate to citizenship means 'serving two masters'? As I have proved from scripture many times we have examples in Paul, etc. who were citizens or subjects of Rome who submitted to the rule of law of Rome yet still obtained the gift of the Holy Spirit. Look at the Gentiles addressed in Acts 15 who received the Holy Spirit not by following any OT laws. This perplexed the Israelites who claimed that to be attached to Christ one must follow OT laws. Acts 15 is all about what OT laws the Gentile believers were obligated to follow. No where even hinted is anything you guys are asserting. Don't you think a council concerning what OT laws the Gentiles are obligated to follow would have been a perfect place to mention your theory - if in fact it is the kernal of the Gospel itself?
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As for Paul, I believe he was a citizen of the Roman Empire which simply means he was free. Free to contract. Not bound by any roman laws. An equal. That was his civil status.
I think you will find he had no political Status to bind him under authority of a man master.
By that same measure then one could be still be free as a USA CITIZEN. Paul certainly asserted that those whom he was dealing with recognize that he be treated with the benefits enjoyed exclusively by those of Empire citizenship. Paul's political status was certainly that he could enjoy - and invoke - special benefits afforded by that Empire citizenship. What is the difference between Paul appealing to Caesar and me appealing to appellate court? None as both are rooted in the Lex Romana.
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He had the protection of the Roman Emperor to retain that freedom and conduct his commerce/trade on his own terms.
Not on his 'own terms'. Only those within the Lex Romana which applied to citizens of the Empire (which over threw the Republic, btw). Paul was such a citizen and therefore subject to the Lex Romana... which was a good thing in context considering the Jews' trying to kill him!
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My gut feeling and I may be wrong is that it would be similar to being a 'subject of the Queen' in England which appears to be the highest form of freedom for one born in the Commonwealth ie: exempt from political rule.
Huh? Being subject to the Queen equates to being exempt from political rule? The Queen is a political entity who rules over her subjects. The only freedom in that context is that which is granted by the Queen to her subjects. No different from being subject to USA.
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There is civil status and political status. Political Status is the one getting us into problems.
If you are subject to the Queen - who governs the body Politic - then
your civil status is administered by the Queen in her courts... and on the street. Again, one can be subject to the Queen or USA as long as - like Daniel - one puts God first and foremost.
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Was Joseph capable of being 'self' righteous before the Messiah was born? No one is righteous [Romans 3:10]. The word righteous also means to render innocent. Strong's G1344
Please read the section concerning Joseph.
Mat 1:19 Then 1161 Joseph 2501 her 846 husband 435, being 5607 a just 1342 [man], and 2532 not 3361 willing 2309 to make 3856 0 her 846 a publick example 3856 , was minded 1014 to put 630 0 her 846 away 630 privily 2977.
You will find that the greek word "righteous" or "just" means exactly G1342
1) righteous, observing divine laws
a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
a) only Christ truly
4) approved of or acceptable of God
b) in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them
So I ask you. How could Joseph be considered just or righteous if he was breaking the first commandment by going and registering for the Empire census?
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"This righteousness from Yahuwah comes through faith in Yahushua the Messiah to all who believe" [Romans 3:22]. There is a future aspect to righteousness. Yahuwah has set a day when he will judge the world by his standard of righteousness [Acts 17:31]. We "will reap a harvest of righteousness and peace" [Hebrews 12:11] and thus become fully righteous [Gal 5:5].
All good and well. However, one can easily line up scripture to show that being a citizen of whatever country is not in conflict with your statement above. As the scripture points out that you qoute, "all who believe". It does not say "all who refuse goverments". This is exactly why - I believe - brother Robert has claimed that scripture is corrupt.
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My problem in 'believing' we CAN serve two Masters is - Why would the second master want to punish us????
You are asserting an 'a priori' assumption that being a CITIZEN as well as a believer in Christ is serving two masters. I have shown you in detail that if your assertion is correct both Paul and Joseph were serving two masters. If you read the rest of the verse that line is taken from you will see that one cannot serve both God and mammon. That goes beyond any status of CITIZENSHIP or what-have-you.
Best to you and yours!
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Edited by - BatKol on 06 Dec 2006 23:38:40 |
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Uncle Buck
Advanced Member
Australia
134 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 02:15:57
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Greetings brother Batkol, I will respond in kind and it is great to see you challenging everything! Hold fast to what is good brother! No one can drag you into the kingdom you must find that opening yourself... Let us not be your stumbling block.
Batkol wrote:
brother Rick, when one enters into which-ever STATE's court - be it the Roman Empire 45 AD or the USA 2006 AD - one is under the rule of law of that STATE. This is the hot button item right here.
Rick replies: Dead wrong. You bring YOUR OWN LAW FORM TO COURT. You create YOUR OWN COURT if you have proper Standing. Unless you have committed a crime against Yahuwah and broken one of the ten commandments then it is purely administrative.
Batkol wrote:
By that same measure then one could be still be free as a USA CITIZEN.
Rick responds:
No a USA Citizen is a corporate entity. A citizen of the united States of America is a man or one of the people a living sentient being. There is a huge difference between the birth certificate commerce and man-to-man contracts.
Batkol wrote:
What is the difference between Paul appealing to Caesar and me appealing to appellate court? None as both are rooted in the Lex Romana.
Rick responds:
Why were you in the appellate court in the first place? If you follow Matthew 5:25 and pursue peace you obtain your own remedy; an ex-parte default judgment against your 'enemy' before you get to court. It is all a private administrative process.
Batkol wrote:
Being subject to the Queen equates to being exempt from political rule? The Queen is a political entity who rules over her subjects. The only freedom in that context is that which is granted by the Queen to her subjects. No different from being subject to USA.
quote:
Rick: There is civil status and political status. Political Status is the one getting us into problems.
If you are subject to the Queen - who governs the body Politic - then
your civil status is administered by the Queen in her courts... and on the street. Again, one can be subject to the Queen or USA as long as - like Daniel - one puts God first and foremost.
Rick responds:
There has never been, to the best of my knowledge and belief, any legal definition of the term 'subject of the Queen'. It is NOT in its political status it is in the original jurisdiction. The Queen is the defender of the protestant faith. The Queen is also head of the body politic and the legal system. Persons swear oaths of allegiance and loyalty to the Queen. However an example of the phrase or term 'subject of the Queen' can be found in section 117 of the Constitution of Australia. It is referring to living sentient moral beings not persons. You can have an allegiance to Yahuwah and a loyalty to the Queen or President but you cannot share allegiance! As for QEII (Lizzie) she does not administer MY status in HER courts. It is a paper duel. Show me the jurisdiction over the man that QEII has? None, she needs a valid claim over my life, liberty or property before she has a legitimate claim otherwise it is an allegation only or perjury!
As for Joseph, I do not know enough about the Census laws to determine whether there was an exemption for religious beliefs? If Joseph doesn’t know how to be free, as apparently Yahushua hadn’t taught him that from the womb, and a whole nation of Jewish/Israelites had backslid into stupidity, why caste the first stone at him? There is scripture 1 Cor 7:21 etc…, that says IF you can be free.
Batkol wrote:
....one can easily line up scripture to show that being a citizen of whatever country is not in conflict with your statement above. As the scripture points out that you qoute, "all who believe". It does not say "all who refuse goverments". This is exactly why - I believe - brother Robert has claimed that scripture is corrupt.
Rick responds:
You have free will to accept or reject the call of grace from Yahuwah. If you accept the invitation then your faith must be the same as that of Yahushua. If you reject the call then you are in a political state and under someone who is exercising authority over you at your election! Scripture is pretty clear on narrow path and straight gate too. If you were in prison doing life for murder and repented and entered the kingdom of Yahuwah it doesn't mean your pre-existing legal obligations disappeared? However, I am more confident that all so-called crimes are simply commercial in nature and can be paid for through the cestui que trust exemption accounts established through the birth certificate.
Batkol wrote:
You are asserting an 'a priori' assumption that being a CITIZEN as well as a believer in Christ is serving two masters. I have shown you in detail that if your assertion is correct both Paul and Joseph were serving two masters. If you read the rest of the verse that line is taken from you will see that one cannot serve both God and mammon. That goes beyond any status of CITIZENSHIP or what-have-you.
Rick responds:
Not true, I am a citizen of heaven and therefore a believer. I cannot be a citizen of heaven unless I am a believer. I can be a believer and not a citizen of heaven just like Satan. I am pretty sure He believes Yahuwah exists and I am pretty sure Satan aint in the kingdom proper (and if he is he is an enemy of the state). Now I can also be a believer and not press into the kingdom by being a belligerent resistent so-and-so. I can also want to press into the kingdom proper but be restrained because I am a slave or prisoner of the corporate State in jail.
I agree with you that one cannot serve Yahuwah and Mammon. Whose desires are you serving by remaining in the kingdom of the USA with George Bush as your head?
Best also my friend to you and yours.
brother Rick
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If I have to be like him who is going to be like me?
James 1:25 The Perfect Law of Liberty |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 07:59:39
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PECU'LIAR, a. [L. peculiaris, from peculium, one's own property, from pecus, cattle.] 1. Appropriate; belonging to a person and to him only. 4. Belonging to a nation, system or other thing, and not to others. - Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me from all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a set apart nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Yisra'el. - Exodus 19:5-6
For thou art an set apart people unto Yahuwah thy 'Elohiym, and Yahuwah hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, from all the nations that are upon the earth. - Deuteronomy 14:2
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people... - Titus 2:14
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people... - 1Peter 2:9
peculiar people. Eccl. Jehovah's <sic> own people... - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, copyright 1916-1960, page 619
Yahuwah hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, from all the nations that are upon the earth.
...unto himself...belonging to a person and to him only...belonging to a nation, system or other thing, and not to others.
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate[1], saith Yahuwah, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons (subjects[2]) and daughters (inhabitants[3]), saith Yahuwah Almighty.
And, as for "emulating" Paul...
...he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the nations, and kings, and the children of Yisra'el: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake!
...one may want to reconsider.
Endnotes:
[1] G873 aphorizo Thayer Definition: 1) to mark off from others by boundaries, to limit, to separate
[2] H1121 ben BDB Definition: 1) ...member of a group ...1g) people (of a nation) (plural)
H1121 ben bane ...figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition
[3] G2364 thugater thoo-gat'-air ...(by Hebraism) descendant (or inhabitant)
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 08 Dec 2006 06:13:52 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 13:31:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Buck
Greetings brother Batkol, I will respond in kind and it is great to see you challenging everything! Hold fast to what is good brother! No one can drag you into the kingdom you must find that opening yourself... Let us not be your stumbling block.
Greetings to you as well. I am just going to go strait to this point because all of the arguments come down to this bottom line. I just responded to every point in your last post but realize it is just too long and the bottom line will get lost.
quote:
quote:
Batkol wrote:
What is the difference between Paul appealing to Caesar and me appealing to appellate court? None as both are rooted in the Lex Romana.
Rick responds:
Why were you in the appellate court in the first place? If you follow Matthew 5:25 and pursue peace you obtain your own remedy; an ex-parte default judgment against your 'enemy' before you get to court. It is all a private administrative process.
You did not really address the point fully and your answer only strengthens my original question. Paul argued his way even to appeal as a citizen of the pagan EMPIRE in their 'private administrative process'. The point is brother Robert claims that it is a breach of the first commandment to even enter into the private administrative process or to be a citizen of a pagan GOVT. Paul did both. He did not “bring his own law” and “create his own court”. The court was governed by Lex Romana and - as a citizen of the Pagan Roman Empire he could access that court and law.
We should focus here so I'll only respond to this last bit:
quote:
I agree with you that one cannot serve Yahuwah and Mammon. Whose desires are you serving by remaining in the kingdom of the USA with George Bush as your head?
Best also my friend to you and yours.
George Bush is no more 'my head' then the Queen is yours. No more than Nebuchadnezzar was Daniel's. No more than Caesar’s was Paul's or Joseph's. The bottom line is Paul, a self confessed Roman citizen argued his court case within the pagan Lex Romana all the way to appeal without serving two masters. Joseph went and registered with the pagan Roman Empire for census tax and is still defined as "one who follows divine law". The Bible sees these people as having a "Proper Stand" as is evidenced by their exhaultation in scripture.
None of what you offer up gets around the fact that the Bible does not view these folks as serving two masters and yet they are solid examples of those who served God while participating in and submitting to a pagan government structure. Pagan government structures which were even more brutal to their populace than USA. Study Rome during Paul’s era.
Also, are you saying that the golden calf that the Israelites made was not really a molten pagan figurine made out of gold and fashioned in a literal fire?
quote:
Rick responds:
You have free will to accept or reject the call of grace from Yahuwah. If you accept the invitation then your faith must be the same as that of Yahushua.
If you reject the call then you are in a political state and under someone who is exercising authority over you at your election!
The very fact that Paul - who wrote over half of the NT - was a self confessed citizen of a pagan empire who exersized authority over it's populace stands in opposition to your assertion. Paul could be both a citizen of that pagan empire politically with no contradiction of being a citizen of the kingdom of heaven.
quote:
Scripture is pretty clear on narrow path and straight gate too.
Yeah, but you are filling in what you assert is that very path when - as the NT has shown - there are exhaulted figures in the Bible who did submit to the pagan Empire with no conflict in their citizenship in heaven.
quote:
However, I am more confident that all so-called crimes are simply commercial in nature and can be paid for through the cestui que trust exemption accounts established through the birth certificate.
Again, the key issue here is citizenship and we have Paul being both a citizen of a pagan empire while at the same time being a citizen of heaven. We have Joseph who is defined as being one who follows divine laws registering with a pagan empire.
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Edited by - BatKol on 07 Dec 2006 20:54:18 |
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stefree
Regular Member
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 14:38:56
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Gentlemen,
I'm not sure what you have written in your latest post, but this is the message that comes up when we tried to access it...
Access Denied
The requested document, http://ecclesia.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=512&whichpage=11, will not be shown.
Reason: DDR score = 166. This page will not be displayed because it contains prohibited words or it has exceeded its tolerance of questionable words.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright © (1996-2003) Symantec Corporation
All Rights Reserved. Legal Notice
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Bondservant
Forum Administrator
382 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 18:46:35
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| Stefree, whatever censoring programme you have that is made by Symantec is rejecting the page because of Uncle Buck's defining the word "fornication" on December 5. You need to change the settings on your censor programme. |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 06:43:41
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Greetings and salutations,
Peace be unto the house.
Our "censoring programme", the set apart spirit of Yahuwah, rejects that definition of fornication as well, as it does not put enough emphasis on the figurative meaning of this word, and words akin to it, as they are used in the Word of Yahuwah.
For example, when we look at a Greek word translated fornication in the New Covenant/Testament we begin at G4202 (porneia), which comes from G4203 (porneuo), which comes from G4204 (porne), which comes from G4205 (pornos), and they all originate from the Greek word pernemi, which means "to sell".
Both James Strong and Joseph Thayer tell us that that word is "akin to the base of G4097". Here (in green) is some of what Strong's Greek Dictionary, and (in brown), Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament have to say about G4097.
(to traverse...) to traffic (by travelling), that is, dispose of as merchandise or into slavery (literally or figuratively)
Thayer Definition: 1) to sell; 1a) of price, one into slavery; 1b) of the master to whom one is sold as a slave; 2) metaphorically; 2a) sold under sin, entirely under the control of the love of sinning; 2b) of one bribed to give himself up wholly to another’s will
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you...The merchandise of...slaves, and souls of men.
And Ya'acob [Jacob] said, Sell [H4376] me this day thy birthright.
H4376 makar ...to sell, literally (as merchandise, a daughter in marriage, into slavery)
H4397 makar ...to sell oneself...to sell oneself...
And satan answered Yahuwah, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
That birthright was his sovereignty; it was his liberty, his right to the tree of life!!
Have we too sold our sovereignty for a mess of pottage? Have we sold our children, and will they, by our example, in turn sell their children, for that same boiled mess?
Those who exchange liberty for security
will soon find
that they have neither.
- Benjamin Franklin
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 09 Dec 2006 08:31:24 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 07:45:31
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And there is another form of fornication; it is called adultery.
Strong's Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary gives us two senses for the Ibriy [Hebrew] word na'aph, which has been translated, adulterer ('ess), commit (-ing) adultery, woman that breaks wedlock.
The first, or literal sense, is to commit adultery.
Many of us may have noticed that from the standpoint of the Scripture it would appear that a man can commit adultery only with a maid who is betrothed or a woman who is espoused to another man, i.e. a woman who belongs to another man (See Lev 20:10; Pro 6:29; Yirm'yahu [Jeremiah] 29:23; Eze 16:32), and conversely (in a contrary order) only a maid who is betrothed to a man, or a woman who is espoused to a man, can commit adultery. In fact, from a Scriptural point of view it would appear that a maid does not become a woman until she becomes espoused to a man, which is where our term "old maid" comes from. That phrase means a maid who has never joined herself (consented to belong to) to a man. All this, of course, leads us to the second, or figurative sense, which means to apostacize.
Apostasy, in general, means, "The desertion from a party to which one has adhered". In the set apart Scripture of Yahuwah this is generally referred to as backsliding (Ibriy mashubah).
Hast thou seen that which backsliding Yisra'el hath done? she is gone up upon every high (powerful, arrogant) mountain and under every prosperous tree, and there hath played the adultress.
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Yisra'el committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Yahu'dah [Judah] feared not, but went and committed adultery also.
And Yahuwah said unto me, The backsliding Yisra'el hath justified herself more than treacherous (one who violates allegiance) Yahu'dah.
Why then is this people of Yerushalem [Jerusalem] turned to a perpetual backsliding? they fasten upon treachery, they refuse to turn back.
But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this one to reign over us.
And so He invited "others" to cleave unto him and be His peculiar people, and the invitation is irrecovable.
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the Word [of the Kingdom] of Yahwuah should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the [those of other] nations[1].
The [natural] branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by belief.
Be not highminded, but fear: For if Yahuwah spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Endnotes:
[1] Note well that at Act 13:46 it did not say "we turn to those of other religions (Gr threskeia)".
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 11 Dec 2006 05:29:34 |
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kevin
Advanced Member
uSA
100 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 08:04:47
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quote:
Originally posted by BatKol
quote:
Originally posted by kevin
Now Im getting the picture,
So we have the law and we have us all disobeying that law,
even on my best day if there is such a thing) I miss it , alot.
Kevin, show me in the Bible where it says being a citizen of a country is a sin.
I can't ...
Hmm I wonder why,
cuz I do not believe for a minit the the bible is the word of God.
When the word of God came to Sam it didnt come in the mail as a written book, the written word happens after the real word came.
The Word of God is sharp ,He Lives and is active.
He is not static,
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 14:21:57
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quote:
Originally posted by kevin
quote:
Originally posted by BatKol
quote:
Originally posted by kevin
Now Im getting the picture,
So we have the law and we have us all disobeying that law,
even on my best day if there is such a thing) I miss it , alot.
Kevin, show me in the Bible where it says being a citizen of a country is a sin.
I can't ...
Hmm I wonder why,
cuz I do not believe for a minit the the bible is the word of God.
When the word of God came to Sam it didnt come in the mail as a written book, the written word happens after the real word came.
Hmm. OK. You are saying that the reason you can't show me where in the Bible it says being a citizen is a sin is "cuz you don't believe for a minit the bible is the word of God". Thanks for being clear and direct for the thread......So, is it safe to assume you don't believe the parts in the Bible where God instructs the prophet or patriarch to write down what is being told to them? After all (and for example) Moses is told by God to write down a few things. Forget John the Revelator because - after all - what is the book of Revelations?!?
Setting that aside for a moment, can I assume that you also don't believe in any of the history recorded in the Bible either? Because if you go that route it gets you off the hook on so many of the problem spots concerning this same topic we have been debating for years now.
quote:
The Word of God is sharp ,He Lives and is active.
He is not static,
FWIW, The Word became flesh and is the same yesterday, today and forever. People change. He does not change. |
Edited by - BatKol on 10 Dec 2006 14:26:14 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 15:18:10
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quote:
Originally posted by oneisraelite
Greetings and salutations,
Peace be unto the house.
Our "censoring programme", the set apart spirit of Yahuwah, rejects that definition of fornication as well, as it does not put enough emphasis on the figurative meaning of this word, and words akin to it, as they are used in the Word of Yahuwah.
For example, when we look at a Greek word translated fornication in the New Covenant/Testament we begin at G4202 (porneia), which comes from G4203 (porneuo), which comes from G4204 (porne), which comes from G4205 (pornos), and they all originate from the Greek word pernemi, which means "to sell".
Both James Strong and Joseph Thayer tell us that that word is "akin to the base of G4097". Here (in green) is some of what Strong's Greek Dictionary, and (in brown), Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament have to say about G4097.
(to traverse...) to traffic (by travelling), that is, dispose of as merchandise or into slavery (literally or figuratively)
Thayer Definition: 1) to sell; 1a) of price, one into slavery; 1b) of the master to whom one is sold as a slave; 2) metaphorically; 2a) sold under sin, entirely under the control of the love of sinning; 2b) of one bribed to give himself up wholly to another’s will
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you...The merchandise of...slaves, and souls of men.
And Ya'acob [Jacob] said, Sell [H4376] me this day thy birthright.
H4376 makar ...to sell, literally (as merchandise, a daughter in marriage, into slavery)
H4397 makar ...to sell oneself...to sell oneself...
And satan answered Yahuwah, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
That birthright was his sovereignty; it was his liberty, his right to the tree of life!!
Have we too sold our sovereignty for a mess of pottage? Have we sold our children, and will they, by our example, in turn sell their children, for that same boiled mess?
Those who exchange liberty for security
will soon find
that they have neither.
- Benjamin Franklin
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
Let's say you are right and keep that frame of mind going.
Well, what about benefiting off of the very slavery scheme itself? Is that fornication too? What's the culpability in willfully choosing to benefit from trafficing the very product created by the slavery scheme?
A fed lawyer told me - in response to claim that FRN's are not backed by gold - "we changed that. FRN's are now backed up by contracts, promises to pay and good faith in the USA."
When we use them, sell our labor for them, etc. we give them value and complete the good faith end of their contracts and promises to pay. Nobody is sovereign when dealing in FRN's. We are subject to the laws that govern commerce when we traffic FRN's.
.... or is it something else all together and these imperfections of liberty are really symptoms of a bigger illness?
That can be proven from the Bible - as it is written - with no contradictions.
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Edited by - BatKol on 10 Dec 2006 15:32:45 |
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kevin
Advanced Member
uSA
100 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 18:54:45
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[
Hmm. OK. You are saying that the reason you can't show me where in the Bible it says being a citizen is a sin is "cuz you don't believe for a minit the bible is the word of God". Thanks for being clear and direct for the thread......So, is it safe to assume you don't believe the parts in the Bible where God instructs the prophet or patriarch to write down what is being told to them? After all (and for example) Moses is told by God to write down a few things. Forget John the Revelator because - after all - what is the book of Revelations?!?
Setting that aside for a moment, can I assume that you also don't believe in any of the history recorded in the Bible either? Because if you go that route it gets you off the hook on so many of the problem spots concerning this same topic we have been debating for years now.
quote:
The Word of God is sharp ,He Lives and is active.
He is not static,
FWIW, The Word became flesh and is the same yesterday, today and forever. People change. He does not change.
[/quote]
Okay I was not clear I dont think,
I said I dont believe the written down book is our Fathers word but I do believe our Father spoke to our brothers in the past and they wrote down what they heard. I have not read anywhere where it is a "sin to be a slave or bond or free.
Also I have heard in the spirit that no matter what my physical state, I belong to Him and Him alone. He has spoken to me through three years olds and drunken abusive men and sometime perfect strangers.
Its the daily walking and living where I meet him more than in study.
Now study is a great thing it does help to read, just like a map helps with a journey, but you could journey without a map.
I do believe the Word of God is what He says today,
we are proof that He exsists.
I know if you did not have a bible to read you could still know Him.
Yes I do read , I read alot , I understand a little, but where I see the Living Word active is in daily living, in daily commerce with whom ever my path crosses.
and I did not say I did not believe things in the bible, I just don't call it the word of God, thats sounds too much like when a radio preacher turns up the reverb and anounces what he is about to say, too many men use the "word of God' to prop up there own thing,
Like this brother I know who can quote scripture all day and is way smarter than I but he is into this thing called the toronto blessing ,?? huh? ever heard of that one its called the spirit of lafter, its when all the people get slain in the spirit and make animal noises oh yeah its a big hoot,
and they back it up with scripture and you can not talk them out of it they are con vinced.
I really do love readin about the laws , I dont do it cuz I have to I do it because I find them very good they make lots of sense and they do seem like a wonderful way to live, but His real desire is the Word written on our own heart.
thats my vague understanding.
Kevin
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 07:26:01
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The Kingdom of Yahuwah
is like unto a certain Sovereign
who made a marriage for his Son.
Marriage n. ...In a scriptural sense, the union (Gr gamos) between the Anointed One and his ekklesia (political assembly of citizens)...
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 12 Dec 2006 04:56:24 |
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Surveyor
Regular Member
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 08:51:45
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Well said Kevin. BatKol's response to your comment about the word of God is typical of those who are locked into their own preconceived ideas about the written word. It is the same ole pattern. First presume you know what the other fellow is saying, then pretend that is exactly what he was saying, and then attempt to show him up before everyone else by addressing your own presumptions of what has been said rather than just asking the other fellow to explain what he meant.
Clarence
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2006 : 06:44:11
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Greetings and salutations:
Peace be unto the house.
Wow!! Take a look at this, brothers and sisters!! After looking at the following verses for years now, the set apart spirit has shed a little more light on them this morning. Praise be to Yah!!
At Psalm 2:2 and 3, in the King James Version, we have found, it would certainly seem, the mother of mistranslations!! It reads...
[2] The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, [3] Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
The word saying has no Strong's number, AND it is italicized, indicating, two-fold, that it has been added to the Word of Yahuwah. Here for the edification of the body of anointed ones is how those very same verses read in the 1587 Geneva Bible.
[2] The Kings of the earth band themselues, and the princes are assembled together against the Lord, and against his Christ. [3] Let vs breake their bands, and cast their cordes from vs.
And if we may be permitted to translate it as best we can from the Ibriy [Hebrew] we perceive that it would read thusly.
The kings of the earth station themselves, and the rulers establish a union, against YaHuWaH and against [the] anointed. Tear off their band (that which binds), [and] throw out the cord!
This is, when translated properly, we perceive, a direct instruction to come out of bondage[1]; be not ye slaves of men!!
Praise be to Yah!!!
Endnotes:
[1] bond (n.) ...phonetic variant of band...(see bondage)
bondage ..."condition of a serf or slave"...
slave (n.) ..."person who is the property of another"...the ground sense of which seems to be "thing that changes allegiance" (in the case of the slave, from himself [sovereign] to his master)...
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 13 Dec 2006 23:49:40 |
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kevin
Advanced Member
uSA
100 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2006 : 22:23:45
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[quote]Originally posted by oneisraelite
[font=Book Antiqua]Greetings and salutations:
Peace be unto the house.
Wow!! Take a look at this, brothers and sisters!! After looking at the following verses for years now, the set apart spirit has shed a little more light on them this morning. Praise be to Yah!!
At Psalm 2:2 and 3, in the King James Version, we have found, it would certainly seem, the mother of mistranslations!! It reads...
Well hey now that is a problem,
and when I ead this one without the italics ??
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give *thee* the heathen *for* thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth *for* thy possession.
so it says?
ask me and I will give the heathen thine inheritance??
and
the uttermost parts of the earth thy possession
so He is givng thine inheritance to the heathen, and thine possessions well they wil just be scattered to the uttermost parts of the earth spread out and dissapated.
be dont be sad cuz!!!
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
So watchout Ye rulers He is comin for a feast,
and HE yes HE will carve the roast beast!
I love them psalms
k
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2006 : 08:50:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Surveyor
Well said Kevin. BatKol's response to your comment about the word of God is typical of those who are locked into their own preconceived ideas about the written word. It is the same ole pattern. First presume you know what the other fellow is saying, then pretend that is exactly what he was saying, and then attempt to show him up before everyone else by addressing your own presumptions of what has been said rather than just asking the other fellow to explain what he meant.
Clarence
Dear Clarence,
Read what I actually wrote, not what you think I wrote. I did assume I understood what Kevin meant. He responded to my question if he could show me where in scripture it is a sin to be a citizen. He said he could not and added he does not believe that the Bible is the word of God. I asked him a few more questions in light of that response. In his next post to me he admitted "Okay I was not clear I dont think" while at the same time answering my questions.
So your assumption that I 'pretended' to understand his statement is false and a misreading of what I wrote. I thought I did understand it because his statement seemed quite direct.
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Edited by - BatKol on 13 Dec 2006 10:30:50 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2006 : 09:35:00
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quote:
Originally posted by kevin
[quote]Originally posted by oneisraelite
[font=Book Antiqua]Greetings and salutations:
Peace be unto the house.
Wow!! Take a look at this, brothers and sisters!! After looking at the following verses for years now, the set apart spirit has shed a little more light on them this morning. Praise be to Yah!!
At Psalm 2:2 and 3, in the King James Version, we have found, it would certainly seem, the mother of mistranslations!! It reads...
Well hey now that is a problem,
and when I ead this one without the italics ??
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give *thee* the heathen *for* thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth *for* thy possession.
so it says?
ask me and I will give the heathen thine inheritance??
and
the uttermost parts of the earth thy possession
so He is givng thine inheritance to the heathen, and thine possessions well they wil just be scattered to the uttermost parts of the earth spread out and dissapated.
be dont be sad cuz!!!
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
So watchout Ye rulers He is comin for a feast,
and HE yes HE will carve the roast beast!
I love them psalms
k
That's a sharp observation Kevin and I wonder how your discovery will be answered. I also went and looked up the whole section where oneisraelite is lifting the "be ye not slaves of men" bit. I see that he is replacing the greek word "doulos {doo'-los}" which is translated "servant" with the word "slave". No problem and quite acceptable yet the verse he choose as support actually proves his theory wrong once again.
Let's look at the preceeding verses and the one which follows to get an idea of what Paul (an Empire citizen) is saying in context:
1Cr 7:20 Each in the calling in which he was called -- in this let him remain;
1Cr 7:21 a servant(1401) -- wast thou called? be not anxious; but if also thou art able to become free -- use [it] rather;
1Cr 7:22 for he who [is] in the Lord -- having been called a servant(1401) -- is the Lord's freedman: in like manner also he the freeman, having been called, is servant of Christ:
1Cr 7:23 with a price ye were bought, become not servants(1401) of men;
1Cr 7:24 each, in that in which he was called, brethren, in this let him remain with God.
WOW!! Paul sees no difference in Christ between he that is free or he that is a servant (or slave in oneisraelite's rendering). In fact, what does Paul tell us?
1Cr 7:22 for he who [is] in the Lord -- having been called a servant -- is the Lord's freedman: in like manner also he the freeman, having been called, is servant of Christ:
This is consistant with Paul's other statements:
Eph 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth , the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether [he be] bond(1401) or free.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond (1401) [nor] free : but Christ [is] all, and in all.
Now here is one that I am sure will get avoided. According to oneisraelite free men don't have "the mark of the beast" which he asserts are DL#'s, SS#'s etc (even though one can easily buy or sell without them). Well, then what does he do with this verse which speaks of free men in context to getting the "mark"?
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great,rich and poor, free(1658) and bond(1401), to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
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Edited by - BatKol on 13 Dec 2006 10:10:44 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2006 : 09:58:26
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quote:
Originally posted by oneisraelite
The Kingdom of Yahuwah
is like unto a certain Sovereign
who made a marriage for his Son.
Marriage n. ...In a scriptural sense, the union (Gr gamos) between the Anointed One and his ekklesia (political assembly of citizens)...
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
Here is what was written:
Mat 22:2 The kingdom 932 of heaven 3772 is like 3666 unto a certain 444 king 935, which 3748 made 4160 a marriage 1062 for his 846 son 5207,
Keep in mind that Paul, the Empire citizen, was also a citizen of heaven and member of the Ecclesia.
According to oneisraelite's theories this is impossible!
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Edited by - BatKol on 13 Dec 2006 10:09:24 |
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Bondservant
Forum Administrator
382 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 09:03:13
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Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free(1658) and bond(1401), to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads...
I've read this verse MANY times over MANY years, but it wasn't until Batkol posted it above that the word ALL stood out like a knife of fire. My question - to myself and all of you - is does this include the free in Christ who are also called bondservants in Christ... or does this verse refer to those STATE CITIZENS who are considered legally free or in legal bondage (perhaps in prison?)?
Personally, I can't imagine I will ever voluntarily take this "mark" of the worldly beast, but then that doesn't mean it won't be involuntarily forced upon me.
So, just exactly who does the word "all" in this verse refer to? |
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The Kingdom of Yahuwah
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