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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 11:57:56
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Since the "corrupt scripture" excuse is used often as a resonse to the many verses and examples I provide when debating oneisraelite I thought the topic deserves it's own thread.
oneisraelite's handy theory is that the scriptures are corrupt and that he is lead by "the spirit" to use "what is left of it, buffet-style". Indeed, on the "Kingdom of Yahuway" thread he has told us that he believes "the written versions of Yahuwah’s Word have been tampered with." But this confession is nothing new to those who read oneisraelite's theories and - yes - his "corrupt scripture" doctrine is certainly a handy catch-all that can allow him to offer a blanket response to all of the verses and examples from both the OT and NT which sqarely refute his teachings.
He has told us point blank in the past that he believes "the Set-Apart scriptures are the delusion sent by Yahuwah". Quoting on the "His name is not Yahushua" thread he confesses "there is a preponderance of evidence that this has occurred, and it is “the honour of kings [sovereigns] to search out the matter.” Not only should we search out the matter, we should also try to figure out why? The questions we ask are: (1)Why did the kosmokrators [#G2888] resist giving us a translation of the Scriptures until they felt they had "sanitized" them, made them ineffectual against their power base? (2)What did they do to make them safe?
Now let us address the first question he asks. The second one is answered in this response.
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(1)Why did the kosmokrators [#G2888] resist giving us a translation of the Scriptures until they felt they had "sanitized" them, made them ineffectual against their power base?
This question is flawed from the outset as an a proiri assumption. Let me explain.
Oneisraelite's errors are many. He makes an a priori assumption based on some faulty conclusions. I know it well because I used to make this same argument right here on this list a few years ago after reading "the Jesus Mysteries" and others titles like this. Those arguments do not hold water for many reasons.
One reason is the individual epistles and gospels - and their teachings - were well established before 313AD, 325AD.
Another reason is simply look at the behavior of the early Christians
and their attitude concerning, for example, citizenship and taxes. Note the proofs I provided on the "Kingdom of Yahuweh" thread from Justin Martyr circa 153AD which show that Christians were getting killed just for their confession regardless of the fact that taxes were being paid and that they were good citizens.
oneisraelite has stated that:
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"This persecution/prosecution of the followers of the Anointed King of the commonwealth of Yisra’el did not “officially” end until 313 A.D. when Emperor [commander-in-chief] Constantine created a syncretized[1] "religion", called Christianity, and made it the STATE RELIGION.
Obviously 153AD is much earlier than 313AD (so is Romans 13 for that matter) yet we read Justin Martyr's witness to the good conduct of the early Christians citizens paying taxes yet still getting murdered for simply confessing to be Christians! To imply that the verses I consistantly provided concerning respecting government and paying taxes were added in later by a "syncretic" "STATE" version of Christianity is plain foolishness given the witness of Justin Martyr and others.
After the 'smoke of persecution' cleared so to speak - and after Christianity finally triumphed in Rome - the various communities could now meet openly without fear of being killed.
Another important point is just because the 'offical' canon was not fixed until a later date does not mean the individual texts were not in existence. 'Christianity' was not syncretically created in 313AD... nor was Christianity 'after' the council of Nicea 'radically' different from the earliest Faith. It's just the Faith was mostly underground and subject to obvious limitations. Now the various communities could share their individual letters and texts with each other. Each community did not always have each other's letters and writings. Now the various communities could get together to share their individual writings as well as discuss tamperings that had arisen from break away members.... "from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them." We have a good history of the early ecclesia addressing such splinter groups. In fact, some of the earlist writings from the ecclesia are on this point.
So oneisraelite's assertion that a later, false Christianity tampered with the NT to include examples of goverment submission is proven false by the examples I provide above. If what oneisraelite asserts were true we would not be reading about Justin Martyr's confession about Christians paying taxes in 153 AD.
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Keeping the foregoing in mind, how overt[2] do we think the New Testament writers would have been?
We know who they were. We know what books were around and when they were written. One thing that needs to be understood is the actual climate in which the persecuted Christian underground existed in for over two hundred years before the 'open season' ended with Constantine. These underground communities all did not have the exact same Christian writings at all times. Obviously, letters written to the Roman sect were not delivered to the Corinthians, etc. Actually, the original need to verify the authenticity of the various early Gospels and Epistles was after 140AD when a wealthy, break away Christian named Marcion, (influenced by Gnosticism) started editing the Christian writings to get rid of the all references to "the Lord" (who he said was the "evil, lesser god" compared to Christ, the "good Father") as well as all references to the Old Testament. Kinda like what Thomas Jefferson did but even worse. Marcion said that all references to the OT were added in and not authentic much like how you say that all of the points I bring up in scripture that argue against your teaching are "corrupt scripture". Anyway, Marcion was a wild success and forced the early Christians to recognize the need for authentic writings. Indeed, Christ and Paul warned exactly of such people. Note also this was well before Constantine. There were many others after Marcion. Also note that OT canon was not even fixed until AFTER the rise of Christianity! When I learned this it about knocked me over. Anyway, to make a long story shorter the Christian writings found in the final NT canon were individually well established in their respective communities years and years before Constantine's council of Nicea making it practically impossible to get away with the type of changes you assert were made. The writings were just too well known.
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All we are doing is trying to find the Way out, according to the Scripture, which has been tampered with for ages (Rom. 1:25), in which to accomplish this.
This verse you quote does not say that scripture has been tampered with. You can’t just pluck one verse out of its context to make your argument and then expect everyone to agree with you!
Look at the context of Rome 1:25
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
The context here is worshipping people, birds, four footed animals and creeping things instead of the incorruptible God.
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If you believe we are doing it wrong, if we are wrongly dividing what is left of the Word of Truth after the lying pen of the scribes have had their way with it for ages upon ages
Think about this. The context of the lying pen of the scribes is the OT law!!
Jer 8:8 - "How can you say, 'We are wise, we have the law of the Lord'? Why, that has been changed into falsehood by the lying pen of the Scribes!"
Fact: The NT was not around when Jeremiah wrote this. As for your verse above Paul goes through much pain to explain the correct understanding of the Faith. No doubt, over half of the NT was written by him. Paul was a CITIZEN of the EMPIRE who argued in COURT, appealed to Caesar, etc. yet by your rendering of his own work and the words of Christ he would actually be serving two masters! Joseph and Mary would not have really be righteous and blessed but rather first commandment breakers for going and enlisting in the TAX roles.
...... more to come. |
Edited by - BatKol on 12 Feb 2007 12:46:53 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 14:44:13
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Greetings list,
This item belongs in this thread as well:
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And, of course, Iesu and Iesus was, we are told, an attempt to transliterate this sycopated word, Y'shua, into Latin. It eventually evolved into the Ibriy/Greek/Latin/English hybrid, and totally meaningless word, JESUS (gee-zus).
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Of course, you have been told wrong. Me too. This is one item that I had to eat crow on after I had studied Biblical Hebrew and tried to debate the same position you still put forth. It does not hold water. Using the early Greek LXX OT and the Greek NT is the slam dunk for Iesous but the Yeshua argument can be just as easily established from the later Masoretic (why bother when we have older Greek of both the OT and the NT establishing the antiquity of "Iesous" - both texts being earlier than the Masorah Tanakh).
However, even if you want to go the much later Masoretic Hebrew route instead of the earlier Greek you will find that the name Yeshua is established in the later Biblical Hebrew. Notice that Joshua is also called this name Yeshua while also being called Yehoshua and that in the same verses in the LXX the word Jesus (Iesous) is there. Keep in mind - of course - that there is no "J" in the Hebrew so the "J" would be rendered "Y":
1Ch 24:11 The ninth to Jeshua, the tenth to Shecaniah,
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2Ch 31:15 And next him [were] Eden, and Miniamin, and Jeshua, and Shemaiah, Amariah, and Shecaniah, in the cities of the priests, in [their] set office, to give to their brethren by courses, as well to the great as to the small:
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Ezr 2:2 Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel:
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Ezr 2:6 The children of Pahathmoab, of the children of Jeshua [and] Joab, two thousand eight hundred and twelve.
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Ezr 2:36 The priests: the children of Jedaiah, of the house of Jeshua, nine hundred seventy and three.
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Ezr 2:40 The Levites: the children of Jeshua and Kadmiel, of the children of Hodaviah, seventy and four.
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Ezr 3:2 Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as [it is] written in the law of Moses the man of God.
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Ezr 3:8 Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, began Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the remnant of their brethren the priests and the Levites, and all they that were come out of the captivity unto Jerusalem; and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to set forward the work of the house of the LORD.
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Ezr 3:9 Then stood Jeshua [with] his sons and his brethren, Kadmiel and his sons, the sons of Judah, together, to set forward the workmen in the house of God: the sons of Henadad, [with] their sons and their brethren the Levites.
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Ezr 4:3 But Zerubbabel, and Jeshua, and the rest of the chief of the fathers of Israel, said unto them, Ye have nothing to do with us to build an house unto our God; but we ourselves together will build unto the LORD God of Israel, as king Cyrus the king of Persia hath commanded us.
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Ezr 5:2 Then rose up Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and began to build the house of God which [is] at Jerusalem: and with them [were] the prophets of God helping them.
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Ezr 8:33 Now on the fourth day was the silver and the gold and the vessels weighed in the house of our God by the hand of Meremoth the son of Uriah the priest; and with him [was] Eleazar the son of Phinehas; and with them [was] Jozabad the son of Jeshua, and Noadiah the son of Binnui, Levites;
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Ezr 10:18 And among the sons of the priests there were found that had taken strange wives: [namely], of the sons of Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren; Maaseiah, and Eliezer, and Jarib, and Gedaliah.
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Neh 3:19 And next to him repaired Ezer the son of Jeshua, the ruler of Mizpah, another piece over against the going up to the armoury at the turning [of the wall].
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Neh 7:7 Who came with Zerubbabel, Jeshua, Nehemiah, Azariah, Raamiah, Nahamani, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispereth, Bigvai, Nehum, Baanah. The number, [I say], of the men of the people of Israel [was this];
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Neh 7:11 The children of Pahathmoab, of the children of Jeshua and Joab, two thousand and eight hundred [and] eighteen.
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Neh 7:39 The priests: the children of Jedaiah, of the house of Jeshua, nine hundred seventy and three.
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Neh 7:43 The Levites: the children of Jeshua, of Kadmiel, [and] of the children of Hodevah, seventy and four.
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Neh 8:7 Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people [stood] in their place.
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Neh 8:17 And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness.
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Neh 9:4 Then stood up upon the stairs, of the Levites, Jeshua, and Bani, Kadmiel, Shebaniah, Bunni, Sherebiah, Bani, [and] Chenani, and cried with a loud voice unto the LORD their God.
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Neh 9:5 Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, [and] Pethahiah, said, Stand up [and] bless the LORD your God for ever and ever: and blessed be thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise.
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Neh 10:9 And the Levites: both Jeshua the son of Azaniah, Binnui of the sons of Henadad, Kadmiel;
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Neh 11:26 And at Jeshua, and at Moladah, and at Bethphelet,
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Neh 12:1 Now these [are] the priests and the Levites that went up with Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua: Seraiah, Jeremiah, Ezra,
Here's the definition:
Hebrew for 03442
Pronunciation Guide
Yeshuwa` {yay-shoo'-ah}
TWOT Reference Root Word
Not Available for 03091
Part of Speech
n pr m, n pr loc
Outline of Biblical Usage
Jeshua = "he is saved"
n pr m
1) son of Nun of the tribe of Ephraim and successor to Moses as the leader of the children of Israel; led the conquest of Canaan
2) son of Jehozadak and high priest after the restoration
3) a priest in the time of David who had charge of the 9th course
4) a Levite in the reign of Hezekiah
5) head of a Levitical house which returned from captivity in Babylon
6) father of a builder of the wall of Jerusalem in the time of Nehemiah
So there you have precedent that the name Yeshua (Jeshua) is an established name in Hebrew predating Christ.
Now, having proven that Yeshua is an established name in the Hebrew Bible (especially for Joshua), connect the dots:
Hebrew Yehoshua is also Hebrew Yeshua
Hebrew Yeshua is found as Greek Iesous in the LXX OT.
Greek Iesous is in English Jesus
There is no "sh" sound in the Greek so we rightly have the middle "s" sound in Iesous. The "s" at the end of the Greek name is a grammatical necessity.
So either way you want to go the name Jesus and Yeshua are present. 300 BC Greek LXX or the 900 AD Masoretic text.
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Nomina si nescis perit cognitio rerum. If you know not the names of things, the knowledge of things themselves perishes. Co. Litt. 86.
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Well, the Greek NT stands as solid and detailed testimony of the name Iesous so the knowledge of things concerning Him has NOT parished. In fact that name Jesus is called "emmanuel" which means "God is with us". The same Jesus that is a light to the Gentiles and the glory of Israel.
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Originally posted by kevin
But, if anyone thinks it a waste of time to study the names, with particular attention to their meanings, it is certainly their prerogative to do so. They should probably just ignore threads like "His Name is Not Jesus" and "His Name is Not Yahu'shua", if that is the truth of the matter.
agreed, Peace,
kevin
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It is a waste of time if one is not willing to REALLY study the topic but rather only looking to find things to support their false assumptions.
Kev, consider these important points nobody seems to bother with:
Jesus spoke Aramaic and most certainly Greek but not the 9th century AD Babylonian Hebrew of the Masorah Tanakh written over 800 years after the fact. Think on that a bit.
In Aramaic His name is Eashoa'. In Greek it is Iesous. No conspiracy at all seeing as the "Toldoth Yeshu" assertion does not even come into this equation until at least hundreds of years later (5 AD at the earliest) but most likely over 1,000 years later with the Jewish persecutions. The Hebrew that oneisraelite is trying to use to make his argument is from the Masoretic OT Tanakh which was written around the 9th Century AD. Christ Himself quotes the Greek LXX OT which was written around 300 BC. Even in that Greek LXX OT, we see IHSOUS (Iesous) in the title of the Book of Joshua. In a word, the Masoretic Hebrew is much later than both Greek and Aramaic that Jesus would have been familiar with!
This whole "blot out the name" argument is quite flawed for those simple points (and more).
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The "corrupt scripture" excuse
