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True North
Advanced Member

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  13:27:49  Show Profile
Baruch Atta Adonai Elohenu Melek haOlam (please forgive my poor Hebrew all, I am an ignorant talmid).

I am no barrister and any info received here is subject to being just plain wrong and is not legal advice but here is what I can remember about "Reliance" or the "Doctrine of Good Faith".

The US vs. Aitken and the US vs. Seeger are two cases to reference. The Seeger case dealt with exemption claims under section 6(j) of the Universal Military Training and Service Act of conscientious objectors who did not belong to an othodox religious sect. Section 6(j) excerpts from combatant service in the armed forces those who are conscientiously opposed to participation in war by reason of their (1. "religious training and belief,") i.e. belief in and individual's relation to a (2. Supreme Being) involving (3. duties) superior to those arising from any human relation but (not including) essentially [ (A.) political, (B.) sociological or (C.) philosophical views or a (D.) merely personal moral code.]...

So you must have...
Religious Training and Belief
God
Duties
Truly held
Sincere Belief
Individual Belief

But not for...
political
sociological
philosophical views
personal moral code

Certain religious groups in the US have used the Torah sucessfully. Some Mormans have used Torah upon the basis of a being a "Hebrew". Using an ideological identity standing of geneological ancestry from the "10 lost tribes". Albeit finding over 700 mitzvot instead of 613.

If you divest yourself of any US "benefits" (as suggested elsewhere)you should be able to stand on Torah.

On another note...my proselyting talmudim of Y'shua forget that Yudea has known Adonai as Y'shua for over 5000 years. They do not realise that Y'shua haNazarit only said one thing that had not already been said in Torah and that, if claiming to be talmid, they are ambassadors to goyim not to the house of Ysrael. Nor do they understand that the "new berit" was written by Jews to Goyim not Ysrael. In their zeal they seem to forget Hashema. Most, like the ancient Greeks, must have a formula for even the infinite but their concepts "should" be viewed objectively.

BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  00:01:42  Show Profile
Shalom Alechiem True North,
Thank you for a great start up on this topic. This doctrine of good faith or reliance argument, could it be applied to the DL issue? Also, do believe it is against Torah to enter and argue in court? It seems clear to me in the scriptures that there will a time when we are the tail and not the head. I believe we are in this time as Israelites. Since the physical Throne of David is not yet established and we have no properly appointed Torah-based Judges, I do not think it unrealistic that YHWH would provide an avenue to properly defend one's self in court during this current ROMAN exile. I will look into the above information and probably have many questions.

Baruch HaShem YHWH,
BK

Shema Yisrael.. YHWH Echad!!
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True North
Advanced Member

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  07:27:30  Show Profile
Batkol

The drivers' license isssue has already been challenged and won numerous times using the doctrine of the "Hebrew" ideology. I can remember no cites off the top of my head. I just know personally one who travels with no license and wins in court.

But (why does my heart hurt and my eyes fill with tears?) they (those that claim Hebrew heritage) have to crucify Torah to meet their needs. The fact that Israel was/is to be separate and appoint its own judges who would deal justly by using Torah, as you inferred, shows that bending. Only by twisting Tanak to fit my needs can I make it acceptable, for myself, to deal with the nations in their own court. Not one yod will pass from Torah until all is mala.

If the Kingdom of Israel has no King on the throne of David there is no deliverer. I know I'm being morbid, defeatist and pessimistic but "I" cannot keep Tanak in its entire context within the nations. To embrace Torah means, to use all of one's heart and until haYasha' arise, a slave of hagoyim. My opinion but offered with your well being as motive.
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  07:32:34  Show Profile
Greetings. Yahushua only read the "old Testament" ...and revelation knowlege, and overcame Rome and the religionists of His day. In that respect, We can too. Yahushua is the One who showed me the Way. It is for this understanding I have, that I look to him, his example, and his words. He was so successful...at The great cost, forevermore other lost children of the house of Israel have called him the great sheperd, who knows the Way home. YHWH has provided a Babylon-Rome for generations so as the children have something to prove themselves 'with'. Come out of 'her' My people is the imperative of our day. Tremendous sacrifice and faith-works are necessary to leave that ALL CAP identity behind. But, there is a Way. YHWH in Law, did not create an impossibility. It is for Us to find the Way out.
Do not discredit man's judges, they may know more than you think. Maybe, just maybe, they are testers, to see IF one really is obedient to the Law, or as others say, torah. You will never know, till you are there. Yahushua preached a Kingdom, here and now, though everyone could not "see" it till some did on the mysterious day of pentacost. Then they started coming out by the thousands.
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True North
Advanced Member

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  09:21:30  Show Profile
Indeed Robert-James you speak aright...

Fighting Rome as if an adversary has been from my own misconception of the Kingdom as "other" or "pie in the sky, sweet by and by".

Remedy in Law being an absolute shows that you may be correct in my (mis)-construed idea that "judges" don't know what is up.

Israel was never to be part of the coercion. That was Cains' choice. YHWHs' way is to be separate, depending upon Him, not on another.

Moses wore a veil, because many could not bear to look upon this way?

There are some who have looked and followed. May I, and any who will, be given the fortitude and vision to follow this path "so simple even a child can understand". No mockery but an absolute.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  15:27:03  Show Profile
Shalom,
So basically you all are saying with out Jesus, HaYshua, Yahushua (or which ever spelling) in the picture, one can not effectively fight the bondage BECAUSE the Messiah of the NT is the only Way out.. is this basically it in a nutshell?

BK
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  15:47:17  Show Profile
I'll comment on the statement: "You will never know, till you are there. "

I have been personal witness to three different people who have the same doctrine of "ambassador to the Messiah" (for lack of a better term). The first guy has ended up being implicated in a scam called "greater ministries" and had a horrible Ruach. It was with this man's group I learned the "identity" message of "the serpent seed". Later I witnessed a man who preached the same doctrine who turned out to be "not a very good example" of family unity, etc. And most recently I have seen another with the exact same doctrine belittle his close friends, and all the while his family began to erode around him. No Simka Joy, just harsh, bitter judgement. And lots of contradictions in both action and speech. Messy divorce and confused, hurt children in the wake..In all of the cases I have not seen Shalom but destruction, deep judgement of those who would question "the Way", and extreme anger. These examples in the last ten years seem like "three strikes". Do what they did, get what they got. A basic TaNaCK principle.. YHWH is trying to unite the tribes NOT divide the Tribes. Maybe you all have seen different examples but in my ten years "knowing" the basic doctrine of the "no marks Way" I have only seen fruits of angry bitter Ruachs. I think I will proceed with out Jesus in my life.

BK
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Lewish
Advanced Member

uSA
496 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  16:50:43  Show Profile

I'll offer only an observation. I have seen many who apparently knew the path, and were very ready to tell others how they should walk it, but never applied what they knew to their own lives. It was as if, by telling others how to live, they were exempt from the rules.

An example, and you are probably way to young to remember him, but there was this evangelist named A.A. Allan. He was quite a preacher, and many professed to come to know Jesus as a result of his preaching. But, his person life was a disaster, and he died of acute alcohol poisoning. It was sad to see.

Peace,

Lewis
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doer
Advanced Member

uSA
198 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  17:56:23  Show Profile
BatKol,

There is a saying, "Do not judge The Teacher by His followers." Is there no hypocrisy in the so-called “followers” of the Torah? There is rampant hypocrisy in ALL religious “followers” -- IN ALL RELIGIONS, without exception.

This is one reason why I continue to assert that we must stop being “followers” and become LEADERS BY EXAMPLE. THE LAW is NOT written in books. THE LAW is NOT a piece of paper or a stone tablet. THE LAW is NOT words.

THE LAW is written on every man’s heart by his Creator. We all know THE LAW. We all are very aware when we go astray of it. We all KNOW, because the Voice of our Creator speaks to us in that moment. This is called Conscience. This is the difference between man and the animals. This is what directly connects us to our Creator, and this is what is continually calling us back Home.

The Teacher (Yahushua, Emmanuel, Jesus -- whatever word you wish to use) tried to explain this. He tried to guide us back to The Way, because the religious “authorities” of the time had usurped the teachings for themselves, in order to keep the people in ignorance and bondage. We see the same thing happening today. So what else is new?

This is why I so much appreciate this Forum, and all of the Members and contributors. For the most part, we are all looking to uncover the Truth. We are all looking to re-discover The Way back to our Creator. Those few who have “hidden agendas” are quickly exposed in this Light. There are too many people here who see too clearly, so that charlatans are discovered for what they are.

And those who become temporarily overcome by their pride, are just as quickly admonished to look at themselves and correct course. This is the ultimate duty and test of Friendship. For True Friendship cannot exist in an atmosphere of pride, selfishness and falsehood. I greatly desire to be so exposed when I fail, for a True Friend would sooner risk his friendship by pointing out failings, than see his friend continue on the road to Hell. Such is the power of Love.

So there is much error that has come down to us from the teachings of Torah and Christianity. If it were all so clear, then we would be “walking on water” by now. We would then have no need to study and search for the Truth, because we would be living in Perfect Truth at all times. It is the principle of “not seeing the forest for the trees.” We cannot see the Big Picture because the words get in the way.

Have you noticed how very important WORDS have become? Just try to defend yourself in any courtroom, without a comprehensive understanding of their words! So it is, with the study of The Way. Words have become TOO important. Even here in this Forum, words are constantly referenced in an attempt to infer their original, true MEANING.

But that is the very problem with WORDS. For words are NOT the reality. Is your name you? Can you sit comfortably on the word, “chair?” So imagine how utterly difficult is was for the ancient Teachers, to attempt communication of the Spiritual World, when they only had words for the physical world. Therefore the Teachers spoke in parables, metaphors, stories and the like. Their teachings and writings are to be used as GUIDES ONLY. They were never meant to be “sacred” -- to be worshipped as the ultimate Truth. They are imperfect!

This is why I am not so much interested in nit-picky WORDS. Give me the MEANING! Give me LIVING examples of your UNDERSTANDING. (Understanding = to stand under, to be humbled by the Truth.) What has all of this intellectual study done to help you through LIFE? How has it empowered your life to deal with Babylon? And how far have to gotten on The Way?

Be Well,
Doer
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Surveyor
Regular Member

USA
31 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  21:03:32  Show Profile  Visit Surveyor's Homepage
Very well said Doer
Clarence
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  21:58:47  Show Profile
Greetings. It may not be so much as what the Word says, but what the Word does. Messiah is considered a verb, which is action. Discussion is done sitting down.

The society today is totally out of Yahuweh's order, most families included. Almost without exception, single men are the comer outers of the system, to date. The first Ones bringing their family will be fit to be kings. And this time there will be no 'mixed multitude'.
Cleave is one strange word. In English it means to divide, and another defination is to glue together. Which is it? Adam was to cleave to his wife. And other times scripture says for us to cleave to Yahuweh. What was Adam's problem? He listened to the voice of his wife. Family is the Beginnings of Yahuweh's government here. There was Law way before Moses codified all the little variables. Code means something only those knowing the code...can understand. Moses veiled the truth in all the statues, laws, and judgements. To be unveiled at a later date. Or revealed.
If Moses was so circumspect with the Law, why did he not have those in the wilderness walk circumcised? Because if their heart wasn't circumcised, why bother with the fleshy part. Again, Yahushua {Joshua] had every male entering into the promised land get circumcised. To 'understand' the Law, One must start in genesis-the beginnings, and not exodus. What say ye? Our problems did not start in Egypt, they were from the beginnings.
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True North
Advanced Member

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2003 :  07:06:47  Show Profile
Yes, from the beginnings. As you say Law was way before Moses. The reasoning is simple enough. Atonement is traditionally through either sacrifice or washings. Sin cuts you off from Adonai. You must atone, check out those that were cut off, Cain, Korah in Numbers 16:32, Achan in the valley of Achor. Joshua 7:1, Ananais and his wife...

Adam had to atone (restore fellowship) and the sacrificial lamb gave its innocent life. The early temple...every morning and every evening a lamb was offered, must have been gruesome being a priest. You can understand why Adam hid. Most think that Cain killing Abel is the first place blood was shed in haTaNaK (the Torah, Writings and Prophets = OT).

Check out my post about blood that was ignored in the other thread. Dam, Damut, Adamah the root Hebrew word is blood (dam) and all used in the verse about the creation of adam. The concept is "outside" doctrine but will let you in on many other reasonings. Ever wonder why Immanuel has to be born of a virgin in Isaiahs' prophecy? There is a foundational reason and it has to do with blood.
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Surveyor
Regular Member

USA
31 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2003 :  18:22:01  Show Profile  Visit Surveyor's Homepage
Are you speaking of laws against sinful acts such as defined by the law of Moses? The first law I find reference to is found in Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. It seems to me that this reduces all laws backed by external force for the sake of righteousness to what amounts to beating a dead horse. Neither do I find any provision for atonement or even mercy included within this law. Nor any covenant made with man containing such a provision until the covenant with Abraham.

Neither do I see that the Creator handled the wickedness of men based on laws against specific acts. I see no picture of wrath or accusations of trespass from the Creator such as is found under laws or covenants.

But I do see man endowed from the beginning with the provision of faith which allowed God's law to be written on his heart, not by commandments found in statutes and ordinances but through love of righteousness.

Clarence





Edited by - Surveyor on 09 May 2003 18:24:48
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True North
Advanced Member

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2003 :  20:58:27  Show Profile
Surveyor, thanks I was beginning to fret...

We really do need to start at the beginning but you carry the concept of sin and Law from a slanted perspective as if sin is breaking some commandment. Don't think I'm jumping out on some subjective limb here, sin must be viewed from the perspective of those who were cut off. As in the examples of those I quote above. Each was cut off for a different reason, for Cain, it was murder and so on. The scripture that tells you this seems to be just about lust but sin is a heart condition...

James 1:15...sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

You speak of Law from the common perspective, as if it is something apart or other than Life. (Read with an open mind here, I'm being deliberately obscure, for a reason but not personal).

I had a nifty little post already made when I saw your post, so please read it and then ask your same question but phrase it so I can try to understand better what your perspective is.

...

I was setting at the dinner table, having just enjoyed and rocking back and forth sort of half praying and and half contemplating, when my wife asks, "Are you rocking?"

(I have a habit of just sitting and under my breath singing Hey Yah over and over. A habit I picked up after spending time with an old Hopi medicine man and his family I happened to be rocking back and forth while doing it.) I realised I was thinking to myself, "Why has no one asked any questions about that post on blood?" So I started talking to my wife about the blood when she floored me with the comment, "I don't get it."

"Don't get what, the blood?" I asks and she says, "Yeah the blood, what's the connection?"

I was incredulous. I said, "After all my fanatical (almost hysterical) harping all these years about the blood and you still don't get it?" She could see I was flabbergasted and said, "Yeah I know the blood of Abel cried out from the ground. Is that it? I know the priests offered up a lamb every evening and every morning but why?"

I won't bore you with my mundane home life but it occured to me that maybe others have never seen the connection either...so this post.

We really do need to start at the beginning and I will if you're interested but without a lot of scripture you "should" have already seen...Adam was made... Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:...Job 7:17 What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him? (I hope you caught Robert-James' statement that Job is the oldest book, before Moses). Anyway the question is...What have you done Adonai? Why did you make such a one as this Adam? Why have you given him dominion and such an authority? I let you work this out, or ask, my subjective opinions are freely given, as you can tell.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. But what has this to do with blood?

The setup was perfect...fellowship with a kindred spirit...with one stipulation. "Don't partake of that one thing over there, Adam," Adonai says, "Or the whole thing will go down the tubes".

You know the story but the outcome is death. Separation...Adam you gonna die!... You blew it! But wait...Law...Leviticus 17:11 For the LIFE OF THE FLESH is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

That aspect of YHVH that is Law was brought into the garden where an innocent could be exchanged for the guilty party. A Lamb in whom there is no guile...Job was before Moses...ask yourself how he went before Adonai, how did he know? How did Abel and Cain even know to offer sacrifices?...See?...there was no tablet, yet they knew...How?

Duh...True North...calibrate your compass or how about a Hebrew lesson and start over from the top?
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2003 :  21:43:12  Show Profile
True North, I'd care to hear what you see on "the foundational issue of Isaiah 7:14 and blood". The male gene Y chromosome is what creates-produces the blood of a forming child in the womb.
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True North
Advanced Member

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2003 :  23:01:26  Show Profile
You already know that the female passes no blood to the fetus. The male baby always has the fathers' bloodtype. The wastes from the fetus are passed out by osmosis so there is never a mixing of blood with the mother. But you already knew that.

Where it is foundational is in knowing who we are. Adam, dam is blood in Hebrew, the alef/a is two yods surrounding a vav (as in Y V), Adonai surrounding man, maybe, (I'm no scholar of the wisdom in the Hebrew alef-bet/alphabet, check with Gregory) but add the H which always stands for Adonai and you have YHVH. This is backed up in the Encyclopedic Judaica and I can find that again if you want. But that is not the whole of it.

A-dam ... God/blood is the living soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

What that verse says in Hebrew. YHVH Elohim yatsar adam afar adamah... what you might not have is the knowledge that Hebrew is formed of root words usually three letters. I'll make this short cause I'm tired but afar is a minute particle used elsewhere in the text to denote flour fine gold as in tiny particle...of the a-dam-ah...the root is dam/blood the H on the end stands for YHVH. The blood of God (Adam) was formed from a minute particle of all that God is. Where the argument is in all the different ways that adamah is used in the text but it is always something just a little more signifigant than dirt.

The reason for...1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit...is because Life is in the blood and they both had the blood of God. That is why they are god/man. Something happened to that Life when adam transgressed the Law of Life and he was changed.

There is a similar Hebrew example for the forming of Eve. Not a rib but a Tselem. I'll get to that tomorrow maybe and do a better job on the foundational issue.

I'm bushed
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Surveyor
Regular Member

USA
31 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2003 :  23:16:08  Show Profile  Visit Surveyor's Homepage
True North, you misunderstood my post or I fail to make myself clear. My question to you was if you were speaking of sin as the breaking of a commandment of the Mosiac type. I see the command given to Adam as a statement of the existance of the Spiritual law. Not so much as if you do this then I will take revenge on you but you bring it on yourself. Adam broke this law when he made the choice to partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The act was the evidence of his choice. And Cain already had a problem with his heart before he murdered his brother.

But go ahead with your train of thought, I am interested in what you have to say.

Clarence
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doer
Advanced Member

uSA
198 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2003 :  05:32:06  Show Profile
Does not "sin" literally mean, "To miss the mark"?

So in this context, there is no hint of vengeance or judgment regarding the consequences of sinning, is there? It is just like Natural Law -- where we hurt ourselves if we fall down, pure and simple. Then we must get ourselves up, brush ourselves off, and hopefully learn to avoid that tripping hazard the next time. But we need not feel any guilt about the process -- so long as we are not so stupid, as to have to repeat it.

Be Well,
oer
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True North
Advanced Member

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2003 :  07:21:47  Show Profile
Both of you see how easy it is to misinterpret and judge rather than contemplate a writing of this sort (on the net). You can't see my face, hear the inflections or read the body language to be able to judge the whole of the comments.

Maybe this is good in a way, as in, this imperfect, poor example of a flesh man doesn't prejudice the purity of the message. If it speaks of truth, it stands, if not...pooooey

Doer, I know what you speak, it is a Christian concept of sin. Sin cuts you off from God, period. Now don't get side-tracked. The holy cannot abide with the unholy. Why are we not cut off then? Because sin is a heart condition. When it is finished it brings forth death/separation. Go back to the scripture in James. You miss the mark, yes but it was in Annanais and Saphiras' mind to deceive God. No accident, no mistake. It was Cains' contemplation and decision to kill. No missing the mark but a heart condition that when it is full brings forth death.

I'm going pretty far left here, so keep me straight, but you can't separate a natural law from Law or a torah from Torah. The reason why you don't have to feel guilty when you sin is because your heart is not intent on sinning and deceiving God and you get up, brush yourself off and ATONE with the blood, intent to do better in the future.

The reason why we must get Robert-James' message about the Messiah being action, my harping about faith and belief being the same word and an action. His message about Messiah forming in you, about becoming a deliverer is the message of Law.

Rome recognised the King of Kings by conscription. Tauper Saucey makes the point that the other system of law is the one set up for those who will not recognise the true King. I going to put the chapter I wrote about the blood in the next post. Please read it evaluate my perspective and yours and let's chew this whole idea of sin and Law until we get a handle on who we are. I'm not there yet either, but I'm changing, and each time I explore this topic I learn a little more about bringing this flesh into subjection to Ruach Elohim (Spirit - Creator).
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True North
Advanced Member

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2003 :  07:29:49  Show Profile
3



Symbols of Blood in the Torah




Genesis 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 5:1 ¶ This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man (Hebrew = adam) of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul

Adam is not a name, it is a transliteration of a Hebrew construct of the Hebrew root "dam" and the first letter in the Hebrew alphabet "Alef" or "A". To the Hebrew every letter is important and contains significance on its own merit. "The Alef is more personified than any of the other Hebrew letters...the alef ha(s) been interpreted...as the notarikon, which is the opening phrase of G-ds' proclamation: 'I shall open the tongue (and) mouth of all people to praise Me, or to study, and teach' (Midrash Alfa Beta de-Rabbi Akiva in A. Jellinek, Beit ha-Midrash, 3 (1938)...The expression...denotes complete integration." Encyclopedia Judaica Vol. 2 Page 555.

What is G-ds' name? To the Hebrew this is the sacred language. Instead of writing G-ds' name, Elohim, the Hebrew would abbreviate the name with the A(lef). What is the Name of Elohim? To the Hebrew it is Y, H, V, H, unspeakable and when he writes the name, to avoid taking it litely, H. YHVH is the covenant aspect of G-d, Elohim is the creative G-d.

When exploring the symbol of blood, the word adam with its Hebrew root word dam, carries many implications and is the base root for many words and concepts but its primary meaning is blood.

adam is man the blood of G-d, verse seven, He formed man (Hebrew = adam) from the dust (Hebrew = aphar) of the ground (Hebrew = adamah).

Using Strong's Concordance to the bible, Aphar is used 110 times in the AV. It is translated as dust 93 times, earth 7 times, powder 3, rubbish 2, ashes 2, morter 2, ground 1.

Aphar (dust) is a minute particle. used elsewhere in the text to denote flour fine gold and to denote ashes or something ground to a powder.

adamah is used 225 times in the AV and translated as land(s) 125 times, earth 53, ground 43, country 1, husbandman 2, husbandry 1 time. Marcus Jastrow in his dictionary of the Targumim lists adamah as a feminine biblical Hebrew word probably coming from dam (bloods) in the plural.

What I point out here is the root constructs. A or the Aleph has the symbol of integration, power or leading, dam is blood or water, h or Hey is the symbol of G-d in His totality (the symbols used to define the h or hey is of arms extended as in encompassing all of creation)


"breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (Chay)" The key here is life, What is it?

Chay (life) is used 501 times in the AV. Translated as - live 197 times, life 144, beast 76, alive 31, creature 15, running 7, living thing 6, raw 6, misc 194

Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Genesis 2:9 has a tree of life, 3:22 talks about eating from this tree and living forever. 7:15 & 7:22 talk about every living thing having it, but in 9:4-5 and Leviticus 17:11 and :14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof. Life is in the blood.

1 Pet.1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; :19 But with the precious blood...

So my translation; G-d formed the blood of G-d (adam), from the minute particles (aphar) of all that G-d is (adamah) and the blood of G-d (adam) had blood (chay or life). I translate this way to introduce the next factor in the symbols.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man (adam) in our image (Hebrew = tselem), after our likeness (Hebrew = damuwth):

Tselem is used 17 times in the AV and translated as image 16 times and as a vain shew one time.

damuwth is used 25 times in the AV and translated as likeness 19 times, similitude 2, like 2, manner 1, fashion 1.

This word damuth, has the Hebrew root dam or blood. The symbol of dalet or "d" being the door and the "m" is water or blood.

Concerning the thing being created here, what is the nature of G-d, Love. A created being who is less than G-d is a servant, one created above is a master. A being created to love must be equal.

And the Lord G-d formed Adam of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Adam became a thing just like G-d .

This word "image" is also important. We find it not only in defining the offspring from adam in Gen. 5:3 but in the very formation of Eve. What we miss from "image" or tselem is the root letters. Tsade or "ts" in the Hebrew alphabet is the symbol of the side (man on side). Lamed or the "L" is the staff that binds or directs and the "M" or Mem is water or blood.

Tselem is used elsewhere in the text to denote a cell or cage, as in incarceration. We may get our English word cell from it. This is a subjective comment but consider also our English word atom (adam?) as defining a minute particle.

Backing up into a Hebrew lesson, adam, Damuth, adamh, see the intertwine of the root into each one of these words and see that adam is the blood of G-d.

Gen 2:22 And the rib (Hebrew = tsela), which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

tsela is used 41 times in the AV and translated as side 19 times, chamber 11, boards 2, corners 2, rib 2, another 1, beams 1, halting 1, leaves 1, planks 1;

Tsela is the symbol of a structure much like the ribcage of a ship and is translated as the taking of a rib from adam.

The point being belabored here is; an exact duplication in kind is created. This is adam, it is one, in the exact image and likeness of its creator. Part of adam is separated to form two beings from the source.

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

This is written thousands of years before there was any science telling us of the ability to take one cell of your body and create an exact duplication of you. Its called cloning, we have been cloning carrots in the lab for years as well as simple life forms. We will continue to explore cloning as a symbol in Symbols of Birth.

One more point, you may not be aware of, the male and female body contain the same parts physiognometrically in vestige form. It is relatively simple to make a male, female, and vice-versa. It is being done as an out-patient office procedure every day. If you knew the number of (transvestites) people changing sex in america today you would be amazed.

So what am I getting at? G-d cloned himself and then cloned adam, emphasizing the female aspects? No, I don't believe we would understand the symbols of these verses even with the blueprints in our hands. But something of dramatic proportion is being introduced in these symbols. Something of much more vital importance than an oak tree in a garden with red apples on it and a twelve foot boa constrictor wrapped around a limb hissing at Eve.

What we want to remember here and later when we study the symbol of the virgin birth is the symbol of blood and all that it implies here. The whole symbol of drinking blood for immortality could be attributed to these legends. The Human blood sacrifice and the animal sacrifice symbols take on meaning with the symbol of life in the blood. The symbol of G-d dwelling in each individual starts here. The symbol of Faust signing his name in his own blood and the warning to escape becomes more signifigant when we consider the symbol for the origins of knowledge. But let's let the symbol of blood rest for now and look at the symbol of knowledge. As we do, consider the following...

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent (Hebrew = nchsh) was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

What is the symbol here? What does the symbol of nchsh infer?

Power and authority of an exact duplication of the source, (adam), has been given for dominion over all the earth.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

There can be no duality when considering one original source. Eveything is subject to the source of life and there is only one authority until adam. The source is the source with nothing else created except what is subject to that source. This is where etymology becomes key to interpreting the symbols and understanding the whole picture of the symbol of man as god without the trappings of religion is vital to understanding the symbols.
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Caleb
Advanced Member

Philippines
209 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2003 :  19:40:33  Show Profile
Dear Bat,

I believe you and I want the same thing. Hopefully you can see from my post on the other thread that I think you have thrown out so many cards that the deck is now stacked heavily against you. When one views the B'rit Hadashah as shedding more light on the Torah, rather than changing it or adding to it, the Father soon opens up more and more of His plan to you in a way that is impossible to put into words. The history and the prophets already shed more light, such as reminding us that it is our obedience, not our sacrifices, that please Yahweh. You could figure this out from Torah alone, but Israel did not and thus needed repeated reminders and clarification.

This is all Yahshua was doing when He confronted the Talmudists of His day. You place yourself in a peculiar position when you denounce both sides, for you then become the sole authority on Torah - having rejected all understanding previous to yours. Talk about "pagan elitism"! The problem you have in trying to further your "Torah only" approach with us, is that you also have to reject our understanding of the Tanakh. Were we never to mention Yahshua, or to quote the B'rit Hadashah, you would still be unable to agree with the conclusions we reached from Torah alone. Thus, it is fair to say that we can see no way to fight our present bondage that does not have Yahshua at least looming large in the background.

The issue of the ruach of the followers of Yahshua is a significant one, for it really gets into another form of bondage that is equally important to be freed from. Yahweh has been teaching me freedom in both areas at the same time. This might be best moved to another thread, but there is a reason for the anger you see in the three men you mention as examples. I was much the same for years, and only have learned why very recently. The cause of this anger tends to produce men who search for absolute truth, and then take a stand on what they find. The problem is that they seldom find the "whole truth", just a good size chunk of it, and they defend it with an angry spirit that drives away almost everyone. I should know, for this is the story of my life. You could see a glimpse of this in some of my posts on the other thread (though I have now edited those parts out).

The key point here is that this angry ruach has NOTHING to do with being a follower of Yahshua. It is caused by a certain form of lawlessness (failure to obey the Torah) on the part of their parents. The big problem is that so many of these parents are "Bible-believing Christians", who seem sweet and nice and model parents on the surface. They did not beat their kids senseless behind closed doors, but were guilty of sins far more damaging once understood. So these people preach "Jesus" but produce bitter fruit, and their fruit preaches more truth but without the love that is supposed to go along with it. You reject their truth because it lacks the love, yet it is the B'rit Hadashah that reminds us that the two must go together. You see, the Law written on your heart is consistent with the B'rit Hadashah. The conflict comes from interpreting the book through the words and lives of its supposed followers.

The real surprise comes the moment you take Yahshua's words literally. Christians ramble on about love and present their religion as the formula for how everyone can best "get along" with each other. This is in direct contradiction to what Yahshua said! In Matthew 10:34-42 He said:

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Where is the pagan god-man mythology in this? How does the above teaching help keep us subservient to Babylon? Once acted upon it has the opposite effect, freeing us from all of Babylons chains, including our own flesh and blood if they seek to keep us in bondage. This stuff is so dangerous to Babylon that pastors every week preach sermons that in effect make Yahshua a liar here. Those of us who have determined that we will "lose our lives" in order to obey Yahweh have learned first hand the reality of Yahshua's words. My entire family has told me I'm crazy and my marriage was touch and go for a solid year. My wife disagreed with every single thing that Yahweh directed me to do, and only stayed with me for the sake of our young children. Our marriage went through the valley of the shadow of death.

I know many more who did not survive this. Their marriages were the casualty of their obedience to the Father. I used to think this was a reflection on them, but I cannot judge this any more. I am grateful that Yahweh did not take my wife and children from me, but to get where I am today I had to tell my wife on several occasions that I would help her pack up and send her and the kids back to her family. I had to come to a place where I was willing to let her go rather than disobey Yahweh. Until you've stared that in the face, you cannot understand another who has. And you can never again judge another for the outcome, for it is only by Yahweh's grace that I still have a family. It is only through this experience that I learned the truth about the source of my anger. That truth is now in the process of setting me free.

Your heart resonated with Paul's words about "the freedom of the glory of the children of Elohim", so I will close with another of his quotes that sums up this discussion for me. What True North has injected into our debate has brought out the life that is in the Torah from levels we were all ignorant of. When Yahweh is speaking to you, you recognize this life immediately and it lifts your ruach to new heights. There is more profound truth hidden in the first few chapters of Genesis than we are even capable of comprehending. In Romans chapters 9 to 11 Paul tries to explain some of the truths we have been wrestling with regarding the full plan of Yahweh. After giving it his best shot, he finaly stops and bursts into praise over how inadequate this attempt has made him feel. He can only proclaim:

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of Elohim! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of Yahweh? or who hath been His counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Read these three chapters with your mind free of all the lies you have been told about Paul. Take him at his word and see if it doesn't shed light. Then see if you still think you are doing Yahweh justice by claiming that His ways are simple to understand. It is my prayer that you will catch a glimpse of the depths of the riches that Paul and I and others know are beyond our finite minds to fully grasp, much less explain to others.
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