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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2003 :  08:36:43  Show Profile
Shalom everyone,
I am interested in knowing if this disconnecting from "THE BEAST" can be done using only the first five books of the Bible. If not a jot or tittle will be changed from the Torah, then the answer of freedom must be containied within it. Only problem is, when I read the cursings in the Torah, it details exactly why we are "in the mess we are in" with this bondage (Deut 28:48). It also says to accept your punishment (Lev 26).

I would love some feedback!!

BK

doer
Advanced Member

uSA
198 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2003 :  20:00:05  Show Profile
BatKol,

There were a number of Old Testament figures who "made it back Home." Their FAITH was so IMMENSE, that they were able to break through the veil of illusion we call Life. One was chronicled in the following verse --

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Another is spoken of in the following --

Hbr 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as [was] Aaron.
Hbr 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Hbr 5:6 As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hbr 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Hbr 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Hbr 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually

These PERFECTED SOULS did not really need the Torah or any other teaching. They already had it withing their hearts. But for those of us who are not so blessed, it is very necessary to have the proper Road Map. That Road Map is best described in the New Testament.

Be Well,
Doer
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Caleb
Advanced Member

Philippines
209 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2003 :  20:06:30  Show Profile
Dear Bat,

Do you have any other thoughts along this line? I suspect you have broached a subject that may turn out to be THE answer. However, the rest of scripture illuminates the Torah for us, so I would not hesitate to use any portion of it.

To answer the issue of the curses, we need the fuller perspective of the history books and the prophets. Israel failed miserably to abide by the Torah as they had agreed to. The prophets warned them about the curses this would bring upon them, but then also reminded them of the blessing of obeying Torah. The prophecies then say what will (has) happened to Israel as a result of their disobedience, BUT that one day they will return to Yahweh and follow Him as He always intended them to.

If you are a believer in Yahshua, you have been grafted into Israel, AND His death has removed the power of the curses. Are we still under those curses because WE still refuse to obey the covenants of our fore-fathers? I think so. Will we be given the keys to leaving Egypt/Babylon once we finally take those commands seriously? Again, I believe so. Many people (myself included) devote countless hours to studying "the law", in an attempt to find freedom. Yet to date I have met few who have asked the question you have asked. This takes too much faith apparently. Or people are still deluded by the popular church lies that relegate the Torah to insignificance.

Is this an area you have faith to move forward in? I do have more ideas than I have time to pursue on my own at present.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2003 :  20:28:32  Show Profile
Shalom Caleb,
I do not believe in Yeshua or Jesus as the Messiah because 1) he did not fulfill the messianic prophecies as outlined in scripture and 2) his story, as told in the NT, is a compilation of pagan godman myths (almost verbatim). To embrace this religion would be a major "traverse" of the Torah.

However, I am interested in finding out if freedom from CORP bondage can be argued using only Torah.

Shalom Alechiem,
BK
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2003 :  20:34:13  Show Profile
PS, the only way to be "grafted" into the nation of Israel is to accept the terms of the covenant outlined in the Torah. The Torah says nothing about how the belief in a person or concept (other than Torah) can make you a member of the nation of Israel.

I do believe there may be something to applying Torah as an escape from this bondage.

BK
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Caleb
Advanced Member

Philippines
209 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2003 :  03:24:21  Show Profile
Dear Bat,

Forgive me for the Christian lingo, and for presuming upon your beliefs. You are, of course, absolutely correct about the need to accept the terms of the covenant. Your observation reveals why so few Christians actually obey the commands of the "Christ" they claim to believe in. Yahshua Himself said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15. Nowhere can you find Him claiming that this refers to anything other than the Torah. Christians think they can "believe" in a man while rejecting the very truths He embodied. Ya'akov (James) refutes this empty belief as no better than the demons, but the average church-goer remains unconcerned. While I am guilty of embracing such a religion for many years, I have repented and now try my best to dispel the ignorance that caused me to do so.

From what you say about the Messianic prophecies and the pagan myths, I can only guess that you have not reviewed the B'rit Hadashah (NT) in depth yourself, but are accepting what others have told you. This is understandable, since most of what Christians say about this imaginary fellow they call "Jeeezus" comes straight out of pagan myths, rather than their Bibles. Examples include his birth three days after the winter solstice, his resurrection on the feast of the fertility goddess Ishtar, and weekly homage to him on Sun-day. It is really quite peculiar and as contrary to Torah as you can get.

But don't let the errors of others prevent you from seeking the truth for yourself regarding Yahshua. The Gospel writers went to great lengths to show how completely Yahshua fulfilled the Messianic prophecies AND why most people of His day missed this. Read Mattityahu and tell me what's missing? Compare Luke 4:18-19 with Yesha'yahu (Isaiah) 61:1-2 for a big clue. Yahshua cut off his reading in the middle of a sentence because everything past that referred to His second coming. So yes, there remain plenty of Messianic prophecies to be fulfilled, and they will soon be fulfilled by the same Yahshua who fulfilled so many of them the first time. We will be the ones who get to experience the release from bondage that the Jews of His day so longed for.

I have in front of me a list of 54 prophecies regarding Messiah that scripture documents Yahshua fulfilling. I will be happy to send this to you. Also, when you accuse the B'rit Hadashah of being a compilation of pagan myths, you indict the Tanakh (OT) as well. Favorite "myths" attacked by the experts, such as the virgin birth, are direct fulfillments of Tanakh prophecy (Yesha'yahu 7:14). Similarly, a myth gets its power by being an immitation of the true. Be careful you do not dismiss the truth simply because someone has plagiarized it. Is Yahweh not the source of all truth? The pagan myths that immitate His truth are usually quite humorous once the full story is known. For example, the "experts" like to cite the Babylonian flood myth as the source for the biblical flood. Yet the Babylonian ark was an un-seaworthy cube, while the biblical ark has very logical dimensions.

Here is the point of my saying all this. If Messiah has not yet come, then using Torah to fight CORP bondage will not work. Your best hope is to move to the nation-state of Israel and see if they will let you live only according to Torah in that land. I suspect they will not. If Messiah has already come once, then "the government [is] upon His shoulder" (Yesha'yahu 9:6) and "He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet" (I Corinthians 15:25). If we are going to live as True Israel today, then we must again swear allegiance to the True King and uphold His covenants. We cannot leave Babylon/Egypt without having a destination to go to. Otherwise the best we can hope for is another forty years wandering in the wilderness.

I believe this is the year that the first captives will begin the exodus from Babylon the Great. It is 70 years since 1933, when the US went off the gold standard and many other pieces of our present "Babylonian captivity" were put into place. 1933 is 2520 years (the seven "times" of Dani'el) after ancient Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 588 BCE. Obviously, those who will experience this blessing of Yahweh are those who have submitted themselves to His rulership. For Judah, this means recognizing their Messiah. For Ephraim (Christians), this means returning to Torah obedience. Then we will see the prophecy in Yechezk'el (Ezekiel) 37 fulfilled where the nation divided for almost 3000 years is finally reunited again. Only with Ephraim's inclusion can the prophecy in Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) 16:14-15 be fulfilled, making this new exodus so great that we forget about the first one.

To date I have met precious few who see this exodus as involving both disconnecting from the Beast and returning to Torah. I know many who are working hard to understand one half of this equation or the other, but these same brothers reject any thought that the two are inextricably linked. You appear to see the link, but then raise another obstacle if the throne of David is presently vacant.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2003 :  11:49:05  Show Profile
Shalom Caleb,
Thank you for your response.

Caleb: From what you say about the Messianic prophecies and the pagan myths, I can only guess that you have not reviewed the B'rit Hadashah (NT) in depth yourself, but are accepting what others have told you.

BatKol: This is not true. The reason I reject the NT is exactly because I have studied it. Deeply. I can prove to you that the NT was created by the very people we are trying escape.
I can also prove to you that Yirmeyahu 31:31-34 has not been fulfilled, along with the exhaustive and conclusive Messianic prophecies. But my mission here is not to squabble over these issues, one must come to these things on their own and I am forbidden to proselytize. Yes, there are some truths contained within the NT, but the Torah was not to be added to or taken away from so whatever the NT does or does not have is irrelevant to my studies on this forum.

Caleb: I have in front of me a list of 54 prophecies regarding Messiah that scripture documents Yahshua fulfilling. I will be happy to send this to you

BatKol: As I mentioned, I have studied this deeply. I am familiar with the list and I challenge you to go trace every one of those TaNaKH references back to the NT and read the whole chapter they came from IN CONTEXT and you will see one of the many reasons the Torah forbids me to accept the NT. I find it odd you reject main stream Christianity, yet would quote from their list of alleged "fulfilled" prophecies. These are an invention of the early Church. Going back and reading the whole chapters in TaNaKH from which these verses are pulled is a real eye opener. Context, context, context.

Caleb: Also, when you accuse the B'rit Hadashah of being a compilation of pagan myths, you indict the Tanakh (OT) as well.

BatKol: Not so. The similarities of some of the ancient myths you claim in TaNaKH exist because they are distortions from Cain and Nimrod. These same cast-off's made up other myths that are the foundation of NT. We must seperate the myth from the Truth and Torah is the key to this.

Caleb: Favorite "myths" attacked by the experts, such as the virgin birth, are direct fulfillments of Tanakh prophecy (Yesha'yahu 7:14).

BatKol: With out even going to the virgin birth argument (which the Hebrew text does not support), just read the context of Yesha'yahu 7:14 starting at 7:1 and read all the way to 7:16 and you will see that the child had nothing to do with Jesus or the NT. Isaiah's sign to Ahaz in Isaiah 7:14-16 was fulfilled. See 2 Melechem 16:5,9 as well as 2 Melechem 15:29-30. By the time the child had come of age to reject bad and choose good the two kings that Ahaz dreaded (Is 7:16)
would be dead. And so they were. Pekhan and Resin failed in their war and were assassinated. Don't believe me. Read the context and check out my statements above. It is all there. Take this same approach with the messiah of the NT and you will see the "out of context" cut and paste formula used to create the NT. Again, my focus here is just to look at our present bondage through the lens of Torah. If there is a solution, it will be in Torah (properly understood and in context)

Caleb: Here is the point of my saying all this. If Messiah has not yet come, then using Torah to fight CORP bondage will not work.

BatKol: This may not be true. In Hoshea we are told concerning the 10 tribes that their errors will be worked out in exile and bondage. The current bondage is because of the broken covenant. A proper application of Torah may be the key since breaking Torah is what got us here. This is why I came to this forum, to explore these possibilities.

Caleb: Your best hope is to move to the nation-state of Israel and see if they will let you live only according to Torah in that land.

BatKol: Absolutely not. ISRAEL is a fictional entity run by atheists, anti-torah leftists, and talmudic pagans. Jerusalem will be a cup of poison. I'll wait until YHWH chooses Jerusalem again, and not until then. Besides, we are to work out our errors while in bondage.

Caleb: If we are going to live as True Israel today, then we must again swear allegiance to the True King and uphold His covenants.

BatKol: Agree. YHWH, blessed be He, is this king and the Torah is His covenant.

Caleb: It is 70 years since 1933, when the US went off the gold standard and many other pieces of our present "Babylonian captivity" were put into place.

BatKol: We are in the current Roman captivity because Yahudah and it's remnant failed to keep Torah after YHWH had King Cyrus release the Babylonian captives. The 10 tribes were well exiled by then fulfilling (and continuing to fulfill) Hoshea's prophecies. But this is part of the plan. This Roman capitivity, as prophicied in Daniel and Torah, has been going strong for well over 2,300 yrs.

Caleb: For Judah, this means recognizing their Messiah.

BatKol: No, for Yahudah's problem is much the same as Ephraim's. Yahudah wants to add to Torah through the Talmud. Ephraim wants to take away from Torah through the NT. Both are foreign to Torah. Both are a form of idolatry and a big reason why we are in the mess we are in. As for the Messiah, he will need no recognition. You will be able to look out your window and look at the state of the world to verify he has come. There is no command that we "accept" him. He will prove himself by fulfilling ALL of the exhaustive and conclusive prophecies. Until then, I suspect both Yahudah and Ephraim must work through these errors. Ephraim has the birthright so I believe this CORP bondage will be overcome by Ephraimites. Yahudah has the scepter (NOT dominion, like Ephraim) until Ephraim works out their idolatry and bondage. Scepter means Halakah. Unfortunately they have added Talmud to this Halakah and they must work through this as well.

Caleb: You appear to see the link, but then raise another obstacle if the throne of David is presently vacant.

BatKol: The Throne of David need not be filled during our repentance process. In fact, it seems like the Throne will remain unfilled until the above mentioned problems with Yahudah and Ephraim are worked out. The fulfillment of such prophecies as Yechezk'el 37 will not happen until David's Throne is given to who's right it is to occupy it. The rightful Messiah...Then we will be released from 1 Sam 8... In turn, this will not happen until a faithful remnant of Yahudah and Ephraim get properly under Torah. This may include not making contracts with our captors, or at least not making them for our children. This is the area of study I hope to achieve in this forum. If you are willing to explore this possibility within Torah, I would like to join you. I promise to you there will be no personal attacks if you decide not to check out some of my references concerning the NT to see if they are true. My goal here is to find some good minds to search only the Torah for a solution. Also, I understand if you are unwilling to do this w/o the NT.

Shalom,
BatKol

"put not your trust in princes, nor the son of man, in whom there is no salvation" Psalms 146:3
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2003 :  20:33:54  Show Profile
Hello BatKol. The written torah says in Deuteronomy 10:16...circumcise therefore the foreskin of your ...heart...and be no more stiffnecked. Since you love the written Law, I must provide a second witness. Leviticus 26:40-41. IF...they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, and their trepass which they trepassed against me....{have you confronted your father and mother for selling you and the heritage of Israel into bondage?} Of course you haven't.
41.And I have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies {Modern babylon U.S. ALL CAP LAND} if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity. {43 -44 should be read in conjunction}
Beautiful Stephen...Acts 7:51 {1500 years after the Law and Moses} Ye stiff necked and uncircumcised of heart and ears {my oh my} ye do always resist the set-apart Spirit as your fathers did and so do you!
Clue...messiah was with them in the wilderness.
So if Israel of old and new, know how to circumcise the heart, all should be well. Moses had real problems with circumcision, you figure! Saul, who was a very real historical man,tried his whole life to circumcise the heart, and couldn't...until he met messiah Yahushua. Yahushua was the first One to have the circumcised heart! And He left his Father's instructions on how to do this.
The Law of the universe is Spirit Law, yes, somewhat codified in scripture. But so coded as to keep the unregenerate from the Truth. YHWH set the rules, even satan obeys!
So, yes, the torah could deliver you from bondage, but you will find that you can't keep torah within your temple. Read... thoughts. Wear tassles, hang with the orthodox, and you will still kill the prophets sent to you.
Love thy neighbor is in torah. But prove it, talk is cheap.
Question. do you want to leave the beast? And go where?
Yahushua, the great prophet, stated,when One is born again, then, and only then, can he see the kingdom. Borrow a cretins NT and read John 3:3. See, being the key word.
Remember Yahushua's words..."don't call me good, there is but One good, YaHuWeH". The NT is full of land mines, but good soldiers do not step on them...notice them, mark them, and move on.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2003 :  11:14:50  Show Profile
Note to all readers:

My original intention was not to squabble over the NT but to study bondage as it relates to Torah. However I see that this issue of the NT must be dealt with. I beg anyone reading this to search out my claims.....


Robert-James: Hello BatKol. The written torah says in Deuteronomy 10:16...circumcise therefore the foreskin of your ...heart...and be no more stiffnecked. Since you love the written Law, I must provide a second witness. Leviticus 26:40-41. IF...they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, and their trepass which they trepassed against me....{have you confronted your father and mother for selling you and the heritage of Israel into bondage?} Of course you haven't.

BatKol: Ah, Robert-James my favorite person to debate with. I welcome this public forum to handle your claims! You say: "have you confronted your father and mother for selling you and the heritage of Israel into bondage? of course you haven't".. You are operating on some SERIOUS presumptions, here. On top of that you are WRONG in your presumptions. For your information I have discussed our current bondage with my parents. I have discussed Israelite heritage with them as well.

Robert-James: 41.And I have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies {Modern babylon U.S. ALL CAP LAND} if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity. {43 -44 should be read in conjunction}

BatKol: Excellent verse, I quoted it earlier. You confirm that it is YHWH who put us in this bondage and that we are to accept this punishment... I agree. When we have to make contracts for even our basic necessities (rental of a domicile and power at a very minimum), this is a very humbling thing. Are you not humbled?? I most certainly am...

Robert-James: Beautiful Stephen...Acts 7:51 {1500 years after the Law and Moses} Ye stiff necked and uncircumcised of heart and ears {my oh my} ye do always resist the set-apart Spirit as your fathers did and so do you!

BatKol: A perfect place to show one of the MANY fatal errors in the NT.. Are you aware that the charecter "Stephen", under the alleged influence of the holy spirit in the Nicene Testament, does not even know where his fore-father was buried??? Will you comment on this? Please do not gloss or avoid this but answer point by point:

Stephen tells the crowd in his sermon that Jacob died in Egypt and his body was brought to Shechem for burial, and placed in the tomb that Abraham bought from the sons of Hamor at Shechem. Let’s see exactly how he recounts this in the NT.

Acts 7:15-16 - KJV
So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor at Sychem.

What does the TaNaKH say about this?

Genesis 23:2
and Sarah died in Kiriath-Arba; which is Hebron in the land of Canaan; and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah, and to weep for her.

Genesis 23:19
And after this, Abraham buried Sarah his wife in the cave of the field of Machpelah before Mamre; the same is Hebron in the land of Canaan.

Genesis 50:13
For his sons carried him to the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which Abraham bought with the field for a possession of a burying place of Ephron the Hittite, before Mamre

Robert-James, Hebron is SOUTH of Jerusalem, Shechem is NORTH of Jerusalem. They are not even close. In addition, Stephen identifies the wrong seller.

Here is a break down of Genesis vs. Acts:

Location of cave: Genesis= Hebron..... Acts= Shechem
Cave purchased from: Genesis = Ephron the Hittite..... Acts= Sons of Hamar

But wait, you may say! This is recorded in the TaNaKH in the book of Joshua.

Joshua 24:32
And the bones of Joseph, which the children of Israel brought up out of Egypt, buried them in Shechem, in the parcel of ground which Jacob bought of the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem for a hundred pieces of money; and they became the inheritance of the children of Joseph.

Look closely at the verse from Acts again…

Acts 7:15-16 - KJV
So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulcher that Abraham bought for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor at Sychem

Break down of Joshua 24:32 vs. Acts 7:15-16

Who is buried there? Book of Joshua = Joseph ........... Book of Acts = Jacob
Who purchased cave? Book of Joshua = Jacob ............ Book of Acts = Abraham
Cave or field? Book of Joshua = field ................ Book of Acts = cave/sepulchar

Joseph was buried in a parcel of ground that Jacob had purchased in Shechem.
Jacob was carried over to Hebron, and buried in a cave that Abraham purchased.

The author/editor/redactor of Acts picked the wrong verse. Joshua clearly indicates that it is Joseph, not Jacob who is buried in Shechem. He also indicates that it is Jacob who purchased the plot of land from the sons of Hamor, not Abraham as Stephen claims in Acts.

Robert-James, you would have me take THIS "Acts" as the word of YHWH??

Robert-James: Clue...messiah was with them in the wilderness.

BatKol: Show me where this is claim supported in the TaNaKH wilderness account. Where is your proof to back this up?

Robert-James: So, yes, the torah could deliver you from bondage, but you will find that you can't keep torah within your temple. Read... thoughts.

BatKol: The Torah seems (my opinion here) to be a process, when followed correctly, that will lead to controlling your thoughts. As for your claim to "can't" Deut 30:10-19 says other wise.

Robert-James: Wear tassles, hang with the orthodox, and you will still kill the prophets sent to you

BatKol: You make serious presumptions AND you operate on pretext, not context, as shown on your above wilderness exegesis. I would not "kill" any prophet nor have I or will I "kill" any prophet. I promise you I will test all prophets against TaNaKH. I will debate self-appointed psudeo priests and test alleged prophets against Torah and TaNaKH.

Robert-James: Love thy neighbor is in torah. But prove it, talk is cheap.

BatKol: Yes, talk is cheap and love thy neighbor is a cornerstone Mitzvah. Again, you operate on presumption concerning my relationship with my neighbors.

Robert-James: Question. do you want to leave the beast?

BatKol: If accepting my punishment per Lev 26 is required of me by YHWH and "the beast" is part of this punishment then "no" (with stipulations pending more study). On top of that, I can prove most have contracts with the BEAST by the very fact that we are using electricity, which requires a monthly renewal of this BEAST contract by abiding by the terms we signed.. i.e - paying the bill.. This is part of YHWH's punishment per Lev 26, Deut 28 (bondage). Talk contracts all you want, but be advised that YOU, YOURSELF have an active contract with the STATE power company.... My original goal here is to study the possibility that perhaps there is a way in Torah, once we accept and understand the bondage, to start moving towards the blessings of Lev. 26. However, after seeing how many have read these posts and have not replied, I suspect I will actually believe what YHWH said in 1 Sam 8 that when collective Israel complains about the king system their ansesters choose..He will not hear them.. This seems to be true as, one way or another, we are dependant on THE BEAST, even if it is going into their system to trabe labor for FRN's, going to THE CORP to get our barcoded food, or even contracting with BEAST for electricity.. PS..I use the word BEAST because everybody knows this means GOV'T..

Robert-James: And go where?

BatKol: A place where Israelites have abandoned all foreign doctrines such as the Talmud, NT and desire to live according to personal, do-able Torah (obviously not temple or gov't Torah which can not be performed in our current bondage). YHWH has blessed me recently with an answer to this prayer and it seems I am not alone in my conclusions. Had a most wonderful Pesach experience with like-minded individuals... a group of people that I could only dream existed!! Only two hours from my home, in fact!! Part of the reason I posted this request for study on this matter using ONLY Torah is because this community asked me to study this issue so the results can be plugged into the equation.

Robert-James: The Law of the universe is Spirit Law, yes, somewhat codified in scripture. But so coded as to keep the unregenerate from the Truth.

BatKol: Somewhat? It seems to me it is well spelled out. It is plain for ALL to see, even the unregenerate so that there is hope for them as well. Does YHWH desire that the wicked perish? NO!
In fact, in Psalms it is said that YHWH speaks in parables to that His concepts are easy to understand. What you speak of is Pagan elitism. YHWH desires Israel to be a light to the nations, not some secret encoded mystery-religion. Yes, there are some things hidden so that we can be like Kings and search the matter out. The NT heresy fits this category and we are warned about false doctrines.

Robert-James: Yahushua, the great prophet, stated,when One is born again, then, and only then, can he see the kingdom. Borrow a cretins NT and read John 3:3. See, being the key word.

BatKol: Why bother borrowing a cretin's NT? I can find this pagan concept spelled out better in other places (the original places this concept was taken from). The only problem is I can not find this "born again" concept in Torah and TaNaKH. YHWH's salvation program is simple: Return to me, and I will return to you. If you want to attach yourself to the Nation of Israel and YHWH, then follow Torah. All evidence points to the accuracy of the curses of Lev 26. We can certainly do much to point out and confess the sins of our fore-fathers, but how many are willing to accept YHWH's punishment of bondage. It is easy to accept bondage if you don't even know you are in bondage, but an honest reading of Lev 26 and a look outside your window (or at your monthly payments on your rental, phone, power contracts, etc.) and this reality comes into focus quickly.

Robert-James: The NT is full of land mines, but good soldiers do not step on them...notice them, mark them, and move on.

BatKol: When the land mines are removed from the NT there is not much else left. Much of the heart of it is based on pagan concepts and a false claim of fulfilled prophecies. You quoted Acts earlier in the post. Hopefully I have helped remove this landmine for you.... ;-). Do you know the history of the construction of the NT? I'd love to FWD an essay concerning this.

May YHWH bless you with Peace,
BatKol
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2003 :  23:22:24  Show Profile
Greetings in the name of El-Elyon.
Yeremiah 8:8 was spoken to the scribes of the written torah.
I gave you the answer to the "Stephen question" from Acts 7, but lightening hit near, and was booted, as was the reply. So be it. Doubt is satan's workshop. The waters of Meribah bring strife. Living waters bring Life. Yahushua {Joshua} spent more time with YHWH than Moses in the tabernacle. Moses couldn't go, Yahushua led the Way. Parables abound. But a veil is cast over the nations and hearts. Which veil shall be removed....go ask Thomas, go ask Paul, he thought he knew the Law, until the Spirit of the Law came.
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Caleb
Advanced Member

Philippines
209 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  01:56:50  Show Profile
Dear Bat,

Where we are in our spiritual walk tends to determine just whose mythology we accept as truth. What makes someone's mythology about the "construction" of the NT more credible than the equally voluminous mythology about how the Tanakh was created? JEPD and other such erudite exercises are standard fare in most seminaries today. Someone like David Icke may be more entertaining, but in the end people swallow his myths because they serve some other purpose.

In your case, you seem to have missed the painfully obvious fact that you have joined those who killed Yahshua. There is no presumption about it if one simply reads your words. They too, denied he was Yahweh in the flesh - Immanuel, "Elohim with us". Like all prophecies, Isaiah's had more than one fulfillment. The one you quote did not result in a child who fulfilled the meaning of "Immanuel", so there had to be another. Look at the previous chapter. Isaiah 6 contains your so-called "pagan elitism". Is the virgin birth an example of something that those with eyes would not be able to see? The reality is that every attack you make on the NT merely weakens your stance on the Tanakh.

The same Spirit who speaks to me out of one end of my Bible speaks to me from the other end as well, and fills me with awe at the amazing unity of the whole. There is nothing in Revelation that cannot be traced back to a seed planted in Genesis. Have you ever read one of Paul's epistles while imprisoned? I have, and for the very first time I KNEW I was reading the letter of a prisoner. You can't forge this kind of stuff. But if you are not living this, it will remain a mystery even while sitting there on the page in front of you.

It was a mystery to me for years, though I could not admit this to myself. But when the Spirit brings it to life for you, He does so with the whole. Even if you take away your so-called "myths" from the NT, there remains a richness of teaching on Torah that no lover of truth can miss. You may have read through the NT with the aid of some critic pointing out various "errors", but you clearly have not understood it. For years I avoided reading the Gospels, for they seemed more myth than reality to me, yet I still claimed to believe the "whole" Bible. But now I read the Gospels regularly and am amazed at what I missed all those years. I truly had eyes, but could not see.

In the case of Stephen's narative, if you correct one name, the story is flawless. Whether Stephen got his history mixed up or a scribe created an error when he thought he was correcting one is really irrelevant. Stephen's story and his point still stands unchanged, as does the rest of scripture even after all the "errors" are pointed out. I find it humorous that people would willingly reveal the smallness of their thinking by writing page after page on the errors of scripture. Most of the supposed errors they find are really just misunderstandings on their part, and none of them change the message. Critics are a dime a dozen, but those who truly understand Yahweh are a rare breed indeed.

Let me illustrate how shaky your position is by my favorite example from my engineering-school days. Brace yourself, for you may soon have to burn your Tanakh in order to maintain respectability. Read I Kings 7:23 if you dare. May I remind you that I Kings is in the Tanakh, NOT the portion of scripture you consider purely myth.

"And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."

Now as an engineer who claimed to believe the whole Bible, this created a real dilemma. I mean, I either had to deny my Creator or I had to deny the value of Pi. Since it wasn't a theology degree I was after, I burned my Bible. I now recommend that you do the same. That is, unless you can see that this doesn't actually change anything. It is an error only to our Greek mindset. The Hebrews didn't see this as a problem. If we want to understand Torah, we need to start thinking like the Hebrews.

The real issue Yahweh is interested in is where our heart is. Yahshua is a "stone of stumbling and a rock of offense". He gets dismissed so we don't have to deal with His teachings. You quote Daniel's 2300 years but can't relate it to anything specific, yet you ignore Daniel 9:25 that speaks specifically of "Messiah the Prince". We know when the command to rebuild Jerusalem was given (455 BC), and we know that 69 weeks is 483 (69 x 7) years, so you tell me who "Messiah the Prince" was, who was "cut off" around the year 28 AD? Do you have any other candidates, or is Tanakh prophecy merely a collection of interesting but irrelevant numbers?

Finally, read Deut. 17:14-20 and compare it with I Samuel 8. Either this another contradiction in the Tanakh, or Yahweh had something bigger in mind. We must have a righteous king over us "from among our brethren", and the Tanakh clearly identifies who He is - provided we have eyes to see. He is the living Torah, as made plain in John 1: the same word of God that spoke everything into being in Genesis 1. Without knowing Him, the Torah you seek to understand will remain dead words on flat paper. I believe you are right that the answers we seek are to be found there, but you are presently stuck in the reverse error of modern Christians. You cannot both reject Torah and know it at the same time.

"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?
. . .
Who hath established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"
Proverbs 30:4
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  06:54:07  Show Profile
Greetings BatKol. Your original question {back to}.Yahuweh called His Son out of Egypt, ok? Moses was sent with the name and authority and delivered the Israelite multitude. YHWH proved Himself. The people later failed terribly. Even bloody David was a failure. YHWH chisled the Law on stone because it was softer than an Israelite's heart. Plan B sets in. He descended upon and in a mere man, Yahushua, and called him out of Egypt. He was obedient to the Voice to the extreme, the death on a stake, surpassing Abraham and Isaac. {Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for Lawbreakers...your torah Law}. No ram in the thicket for this Son. Is Plan B working? Yahushua asked a question..."nevertheless when the Son of Man come, will He find faith on the face of the earth"? {Adam man was made of earth}.
Plan B is about finished. He is calling the final sons out of Egypt. Egypt gave you an ALL CAP name and ss#. They must be left behind. This web site has info on "Its all in the name". Has Yahuweh called you out of Egypt? Literally? Or is the call a vague echo? Only you can answer this. John Bunyon spent 12 years in jail over a license issue. Yahuweh called him by name. Your ALL CAP name will protect you from the agents who patrol the roads, you are one of theirs, caught in the web of lies and PRETEND names. Presently, very few have answered the call. {Ring, ring,...hello? Its Abba, come home! Follow your older Brother Yahushua, He knows the Way. The price has been paid.
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amenyahu
Junior Member

United Kingdom
24 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  08:14:47  Show Profile
I'll try to be as plain as possible in what I say.

I don't think BatKol has ignored Daniel 9 at all. There is another interpretation of Daniel 9:22-27 that goes better with the hebrew of the verses and the times following. This interpretation takes note of the fact that the word translated "messiah" is only translated that way in this one section of scripture. All the other times it is just translated in its proper sense: "anointed [one]". It takes note of the fact that throughout the Tanakh, this word "mashiach" or "anointed one" is never a proper name, but a descriptive term of a priest (lev 4:3 - the anointed priest is literally the messiah priest) or a king like Saul (1 Samuel 24:10). This interpretation takes note of the fact that the "mashiach" in v.25 and 26 is not "THE anointed one" but "an anointed one" since the hebrew doesn't have the definite article in those places at all. It also takes note of the fact that the 70 weeks is separated into THREE distinct time periods of 7, 62, and 1, and not two time periods of 69 (62+7) and 1. It notes the fact that if the hebrew wanted to say "69" it would have said "69" and not "7" and "62". It notes the fact that in the hebrew there is a separation of a semicolon in verse 25 where it should say:

Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; [note the separation] and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times.

This implies very strongly that there are two "mashiachs" being talked about here in the verses and not just one. The versions that translate verse 26 as "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:" are not accurate. It should state that "after THE threescore and two (62) weeks an anointed one shall be cut off, and have nothing" showing no way of saying that "the anointed one shall be cut off, and not for himself, but for the world" as is implied by christian and messianic preconceptions. It also notes that "cut off" does not necessarily mean "to kill", but also "to separate, excommunicate".

Also this interpretation takes the 70 weeks as a unit culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE, rather than using a made up "prophetic" year of 360 days, or breaking off the 70th week to another time of their choosing where their "anointed one" dies at the end of the 62 weeks, and the 70th week is yet to happen for another 30 or 40 years, or even still in the future to come.

I don't think that your notion of Yeshua of being "YHWH in the flesh" is totally founded in scripture but on an assumption. Why do I say that? Because if you look throughout scripture you will see a lot of names have meaning, some having a much clearer meaning that "Yeshua" or "Yahushua". Some mean "Yahweh is my father", "Abijah". Another name has the salvation issue in it. Yeshayahu, or Isaiah means "Yahweh is salvation". It didn't make any of these people divine. So for a person to be called "Immanuel" didn't have to mean that this person would literally be "El with us". Your assumption is that because you believe that Yeshua was deity in flesh, and that this verse applies to him (ignoring the time context and textual context of the verse), that must mean that his "Immanuel" is literal in meaning. This conclusion would be a first in the entirety of Tanakh. Was Soloman literally peace or was it just a sign of his times? Was Jonah literally a dove or was that just a sign of the peace that his prophecy would bring between Nineveh and Yahweh? Was Abijah literally the son of Yah? No. So it is all based on your assumption.

You say that prophecies have many fulfilments? Can you prove that using the Tanakh? Normally I see prophecies being fulfilled and then that is that. For example, I see the prophecy in 1 Kings 13:2. I see the prophecy happen when Josiah comes to the throne and is talked about in 2 Kings 23:16. I don't see any further fulfilment. So show me an example IN TANAKH where a prophecy needs to be fulfilled more than once. Once again, this is down to your assumption. Your assumption is "Yeshua is the Messiah". There is a part of scripture that is said to be a prophecy. Although it may have been fulfilled before it looks like what you believe about Yeshua in the gospels. So you will say therefore that prophecies can have multiple fulfilments to fit that preconceived belief, whether it is true or not.

The problem here is that it is easy to call people blind and to accuse someone of not having the truth. BatKol wanted to talk about something separate from what you were talking about. He wanted to talk about freedom in Torah. You could have used your knowledge to enlighten him, maybe through the conclusion of that discussion, he may have wanted to know more about your knowledge source. But now the conversation is all wrapped up in the validity of the "new testament", and "is yeshua the messiah"?

Your problem concerning 1 Kings 7:23 doesn't really work well. I think it can be proven that the figures given still come up to approximate Pi using the fact that back then they were using cubits and other notations. If the thickness of the rim can be ascertained and the measurement of a cubit then it may be possible to get to Pi. Check out the following christian link and it may show you.

http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=articles&specific=9

As I say, unless this is going to turn into a huge discussion about the validity of the new tesatent, which it already is, then why not deal with the very first question given by BatKol, finish it, AND THEN discuss all this stuff about the nt.

PS. You take Proverbs 30:4 out of context.

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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  09:56:50  Show Profile
Robert-James, Before I can even go on to address your other speculations, your misunderstanding of Torah must be dealt with concerning atonement. There are so many subjects flying around at this point, that we will not get any where until you get a proper understanding of sin and atonement. Clearly you have not studied Torah on this issue, but rather received your education from NT and taken it at face value. Allow me to remove another land-mine of the NT:

Robert-James said: {Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for Lawbreakers...your torah Law}

BatKol: Yes, this is Paul's opinion and it is flat wrong. There are many responses to this. Here is the most simple one:

We know it is established in Torah that in judgment is equal to both the poor and the rich. This is established in Lev 19:15. Now, with that understanding go to Lev 5:11 which explains that an ephah of fine flour can be used as a sin offering. How can this be acceptable if your understanding of Lev. 17:10-11 is correct? You and Paul take Lev 17:10-11 out of context to support your claim. You need to first understand the details of the sin sacrifice. Go back to the scripture when the corban was instituted: Lev 4:1-2. What is the context? Unintentional sins. The point being made in Lev 17:10-11 is that the blood can not be used for ANYTHING else but the unintentional sin offering. You can't eat it. It must be handled properly per instructions given in Torah. Buried or placed on the alter.

So, before we go on, how can Lev 5:11 be an acceptable for sin sacrifice if your understanding of Lev 17:11-10 is correct? I hope lightening does not strike before you can answer this reply!

BK

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atarah1
Regular Member

Antigua and Barbuda
27 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  15:28:04  Show Profile
Deut. 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of YHWH thy Elohim, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that YHWH thy Elohim will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of YHWH thy Elohim.

======

Can't speak for anyone else, but I'd sure like to partake in those blessings (not to mention losing the cursings as well).

I guess what I have a hard time understanding is christians who think the Torah was somehow done away with, spiritualized away, nailed to the cross, or changed, when the messiah of the new testament supposedly said not one yud nor pen stroke of the Torah would be done away with unless heaven and earth passed and as far as I can tell, both of them are still with us.

I want the blessings. I don't want the cursings. I'll believe in those foundational scriptures called the Torah for the time being (unless and until heaven and earth passes... then maybe I'll reconsider).

atarah1

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DanielJacob
Advanced Member

USA
138 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  17:16:55  Show Profile  Visit DanielJacob's Homepage
Brothers,

I too can't speak for others but for me brother Paul seems to put it into perspective.


"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power: in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of the Eternal, who hath raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Let no man therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of the Eternal.
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh.
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of the Eternal. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in the Eternal. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory. "

Peace to all.

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Caleb
Advanced Member

Philippines
209 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  18:46:14  Show Profile
Atarah, we need both the written and the living Torah. Satan knows that those who accept only one are no threat to him. Thus, right as "Christians" such as myself are returning to the written Torah, it becomes more imperative for Satan to convince you to reject the living Torah. As long as you are happy playing with only half the deck, you'll bring in the kingdom of Yahweh with all the power and zeal of the modern church.

Bat and Amen, I think you've proven my point. Our minds will perform any gymnastics necessary to justify our cherished beliefs. To appeal to a Christian to bail you out on I Kings 7:23 is a perfect example. Another is to discredit the 7 and 62 weeks of Daniel, since back to back they work out TOO well. Those who have studied the timeline of Yahshua's ministry can demonstrate that it is 62 weeks (literal this time), not the standard 3 1/2 years we're told in church, so there is a reason for the 70 being divided up. 7 weeks later the disciples were baptized in the Holy Spirit. So far I have not found a good answer for the remaining one week.

Daniel's "abomination that maketh desolate" is one prophecy that has already been fulfilled twice: once in 167 BC and again in 70 AD. The second time was referred to by Yahshua, and His added warnings were used by His followers to flee Jerusalem right before it was destroyed. Most teaching on prophecy claims that the "real" fulfillment is yet future. However, there is another group called "Preterists" who believe that all prophecy was fulfilled by 70 AD. So even while they disagree on when, most Christians would subscribe to your view that prophecy can only have one fulfillment.

What is very clear is that if you read a portion of scripture and assign only one meaning to it, or limit it to one application or fulfillment, you serve a very small god indeed. Your approach comes close to claiming that Yahweh has been asleep for the better part of the last 3500 years. He woke up long enough to dish out some punishments now and again, but other than that His original plan is in total disarray. But if you understand Yahweh's plan, it is clear why He had to bring back a tiny remnant (~50,000) of Judah from the Babylonian captivity and establish them again in the land. Then one generation (~40 years) after they killed their Messiah, Yahweh was through with them and scattered them to join their brethren all over the earth. Is there any other explanation that makes sense of this?

That you are engaged in an exercise of the mind (or ego) and not of the heart is demonstrated when you set yourself above Paul in your understanding of Torah. He sat under the most respected Torah teacher of his day, and was as faithful to Torah as anyone could be. He even believed he was serving Yahweh by killing the followers of Yahshua. Then he had a dramatic conversion, and somehow all his previous teaching has come to nought?!? Again, you are accepting what others say regarding Paul, rather than reading his writing yourselves. Even Peter admitted it was hard to understand Paul, so don't blitz through it and claim to know what he taught. You again associate yourself with the ignorance level of modern church pastors when they tell us Paul taught that Torah was done away with.

Once you understand Torah to the degree that Paul did (which I doubt you or I ever will), and once you understand Paul as well as I do (which is far less of a challenge), then I'll take you seriously when you claim that he misinterpreted Torah. Hebrews 9:22 says, "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Read the context and see that Paul sums up the importance of blood in the Torah, but does not claim that it is the only offering for sin. This importance goes back to Genesis 9 when Noah steps off the ark, and then to Abel's sacrifice which was accepted, and finally to the animals Yahweh sacrificed for Adam and Eve's sins in Eden. Miss this and you might as well throw your Torah away.

Incidentally, which Torah sacrifice do you all observe for your own sins? And what makes you think you can "finally" get right what Israel could never get right except for a few, very brief intervals in her entire history? Have you not learned from this history? I think Bat's original proposal is a very worthwile project, but I might as well go down to the local church and ask them to help me do the same thing from the NT alone. Your thinking is indistinguishable from most pastors, except for which end of the book you prefer. If history demonstrates anything, it is that men will go to any lengths necessary in order to avoid obeying the WHOLE counsel of Yahweh.
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atarah1
Regular Member

Antigua and Barbuda
27 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  19:13:45  Show Profile
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of YHWH your Elohim which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

I'm just dumb enough to believe that stuff I guess. May YHWH forgive my ignorance in believing that nothing shall be added to nor diminished from His Torah. Maybe Paul was smarter than me and found a way around those verses but since I ain't as smart as him, I'll just have to plead "GUILTY" for trying to guard and observe the words of YHWH my Elohim and not add anything to them, nor take anything away from them.

I guess Paul is so smart that he probably deserves to be worshipped. After all, it was him who figured out that when YHWH said that keeping the commands would bring life, that He really meant death.

2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

I just am too stupid to get it. I always thought keeping the ten commmands led to life. What an idiot I've been!!!

I thought when the word of YHWH said...

"All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which sware unto your fathers." (Deut. 8:1)... that He meant it.

I thought it sorta sounded like keeping His commands led to life.

Like earlier in Deuteronomy when it says...

Deut. 5:32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as YHWH your Elohim hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which YHWH your Elohim hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.

Even there I must have gotten confused because it does at least SEEM to say that keeping His commands leeds to life and not death.

But I guess Paul is smarter than I am so maybe I need to start lapping at the fountain of truth that Paul seems to be, because obviously he knows something about the ten commandments when he says they are the "ministration of death". Every good Jew should know that shouldn't they?

Well maybe if I go before YHWH and I bring up Ezekiel chapter 18 which shows the way to repentance and forgiveness of sin (without "shedding of blood), and also bring up Joel 2:32 (since I call on the name of YHWH), maybe He'll show mercy on me. After all, (unless Paul has something contrary to say about this) YHWH will show mercy on whomever He will and His hand is not shortened that it cannot deliver.

Also, unless Paul has figured out a way around this next one, I better be on the safe side: "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination." Proverbs 28:9

I wonder how Paul gets around this next one also (I'm sure he has it figured out somehow): "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

Oh well... I guess I'm doomed to the bondage of YHWH's perfect law (Psalm 19:7).

atarah1
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  19:44:42  Show Profile
Caleb,
You claim gymnastics on my part to "justify" my position. Can't the same be said of you? Here are the circular arguments I was hoping to avoid from the beginning. There are so many issues to address point by point that we should stip this discussion to the essence... Forgiveness of sin.

Robert-James and others agree with Paul when he tries to say that "there is no forgiveness of sin with out the shedding of blood". This totally goes against Torah, plain and simple..

Humor me and explain to me how the flour sacrifice for the poor was not acceptable with out blood, if sin can only be forgiven with the shedding of blood.. Explain to me how a whole town of Nineva received forgiveness with out blood. Paul says this is not possible. Please comment on my post on the last page concerning the context of Lev 17. This would be a great help to me.

BTW, when I seek forgiveness from YHWH I just ask Him for it and bring him the offering of my lips, as He instructed per Hosea.

Shalom,
BK
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Caleb
Advanced Member

Philippines
209 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  23:14:44  Show Profile
Bat, it appears that you and your friends have bought the same lies that I did for many years, but your response is to throw the baby out with the bath water. Searching out the truth is more than an intellectual exercise, and it begins with a large dose of humility regarding the limits of our mind. I too am willing to question the validity of everything, but once something shows itself to be true I change my thinking to fit it, rather than the other way around. Your present views contain some contradictions that you probably do not see as yet.

Among those are quoting Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 in an attempt to discredit the NT, and then using the books of Joshua and following as scripture. You admit to not following Torah instructions regarding sin sacrifices, and appeal to later books instead (Hosea and Ezekiel). Yet the purpose of these sacrifices was to point us to Messiah, so you leave yourself without the roadmap, as it were. In this vein, you do not appear to believe the Torah and the prophets when they declare just how desperately sinful we all are.

The simple answer to your Lev. 17 question is that the priests offered blood sacrifices for the sins of the entire nation, and even the poor were covered by these. The sacrificial system was complex, and with no one practicing it for over 1900 years we are all a bit rusty on this subject. The blood sacrifice must be viewed from the perspective of the whole. You cannot draw a meaningful conclusion by isolating one sacrificial instruction. If things were this simple, the Jews would have had no reason to create the massive volumes of commentary they call the Talmud.

Now here is something in the Torah that is very clear, as it is still observed right up to the present day. Do you keep the feasts outlined in Leviticus 23? Yahweh has not left himself without a witness. What is the purpose of those feasts? They outline the master plan and are "rehersals" for the main events Yahweh planned. Why are there four in the spring and three in the fall? Simple: to show us that they would be fulfilled at two distinct times. Can you tell me when or how the spring feasts were fulfilled? Passover was Messiah's sacrifice, Unleavened Bread was his burial, First Fruits His resurrection, and Pentecost was when the Holy Spirit was given. Yahshua fulfilled each of these feasts on the actual day of the feast. The fall feasts will be fulfilled at Messiah's second coming, and the clear parallels between them and other prophecy is easily shown.

Were I sure you were serious about understanding and observing Torah, I would not spend my time in such a debate, for the Torah would push you straight into the arms of Messiah. However, what I see instead is you picking and choosing what is convenient, in the same way the modern church does. You have obviously gotten many of your misconceptions about both the New and Old Testaments from the modern, life-less church. You have framed this brief dialogue in such a way that every answer is simply shot down or ignored. I have taken your perspective seriously, but do not sense that you are reciprocating.

The spiritual reality we are under is that we must first "see" Yahweh's kingdom before we can learn how to be released from captivity. I Samuel 8 shows us that Saul, David and Shlomo were not the true kings. They were stand-ins demanded by the people in direct violation of Yahweh's will. Not until John the Baptiser and Yahshua did anyone teach on the true kingdom of Yahweh. Ignore that kingdom and you have nowhere to go. So you may get everything letter-perfect out of Torah, and then find that it does not give you the results you desire. I see this in practice every time I try to describe Yahweh's kingdom to so-called "Christians". They give me a blank stare and retreat back into the security of their comfortable bondage. The principles of freedom are so simple, but they are beyond the ability of the spiritually dead to grasp. This is why we must be born again.

Yahweh's has demonstrated His power over everything by making our corrupted, modern law reflect this spiritual reality. You cannot understand all that is wrong with modern law unless you have His life in you. Similarly, you will not have the faith to obey His Torah alone, such as by giving up your car registration and driver's license, without His Spirit in you. Those who do obey His Torah alone will in fact be released from the grip of the modern Babylonian system. The steps to do this are simple, yet they come from the heart, and modern judges are trained to discern the thoughts of your heart. If you try to fake spiritual life, they will throw you behind physical bars to remind you of the spiritual bondage you remain in.

Paul was willing to go to jail for his faith. Are you?

Edited by - Caleb on 08 May 2003 00:58:01
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atarah1
Regular Member

Antigua and Barbuda
27 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  00:21:51  Show Profile
Hi Caleb,

I'm sorry that I struck such a nerve with you. Those who find the Torah to be less than perfect do tend to take personal offense when the contrary is clearly shown to them, to wit; The torah of YHWH is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of YHWH is sure, making wise the simple. (Psalm 19:7 which I referred to above).

If I am a simple man, I don't need Paul or the addition to YHWH's word known as the New Testament. I need the Torah. It converts me (no, not overnight but by observing it all the rest of the days of my life). The testimony of YHWH is sure.

You say the priests offer sacrifices for the whole nation? That may apply to Yom Kippur and to unintentional congregational sins but not individual unintentional sins. Besides that, regarding the national Day of Atonement you apparently don't acknowledge Jesus as being either one of (or both of) the goats of that Moedim. Interesting, because this is the Day of Atonement not Passover.

So you apparently believe Jesus was the Passover lamb. This was NOT an atonement sacrifice. By the way, that lamb is to be without blemish which Jesus surely wasn't (beaten and bloodied and circumcised, or mutilated as Paul might say). And who sacrificed this non-atoning lamb of yours? Pagan gentiles, not a priest! Well that's just special! The Passover lamb was to be roasted and eaten and the remains burnt and none left to morning. Did this happen with Jesus? The blood of a sacrifice was to be applied to the horns of the alter and the remainder poured out at the base. Was this done? You call this a perfect sacrifice? You think that atones for your sins? Ok, believe it if you will. It doesn't affect me one bit if you do.

Again I'm sorry if I struck a nerve with you. Didn't mean to tick you off, just wanted to illustrate some very key issues. I see I have failed for now. I strongly encourage you to do a Torah based study of sin and atonement. I pray YHWH bless you with the wisdom that the perfect Torah can give to even the simple (such as I am). I guess I will bow out for now because the most basic elements of YHWH's word are being belittled or demeaned. I also hope you will consider that the very first command of the ten commands prohibits putting another el before YHWH. Even IF Jesus was the Son of YHWH, he would still be "another el" and you should not pray in his name, sing songs of adoration to him, or in any way put him before the Most High Elohim. It is idolatry which has put Israel into exile, and Israel will not come out of the exile until she puts the idolatry away.

Shalom - be well,
atarah1

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy Elohim, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:6
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