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Its2Die4
Regular Member
uSA
28 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jul 2003 : 19:15:34
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Hi All,
I attempted to solicit comments on another discussion group but to no avail so please indulge me I am having an inner philosophical tug of war, and want all commentaries! Succinctly, I will try to state the problem... All throughout the Old Testament there was remedy provided by God for those that were God's children (Israel) (i.e., Moses, Jonah, Prophets, Kings, Judges, etc.). Those remedies were continually provided even after God provided major remedy called the sacrificial system allowing believers to be right with God (albeit temporary). But in the New Testament has God now provided us with the one and ultimate remedy that we are ever suppose to need and desire for in the person of Jesus Christ, the ultimate sacrifice that took away all sin? Or are there instances of remedy being provided clearly, even in the New Testament beyond His life saving work, that can prove that we are to continue to look and expect messages, techniques, methods from Him to implement for our comfort while here on earth?
Interesting that parts of the New Testament strongly advocate suffering to be endured not challenged (i.e., offer yet your right cheek once the left one is struck, continue being a slave in obedience for my sake [of course there were moral expectations for the owner as well though], etc. etc..). Obviously, the theological dilemma is: is there an argument for Christians being proactive and even defensive while living within a pervasive evil system? If so, is there Biblical reference to support this? Comments please.
Regards,
Keith
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naifgnostic
New Member
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2003 : 22:01:30
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A great place to get answers to your questions about scripture, if you’re interested, is at: http://www.truth.now.nu/
Of course, this site right here isn’t so bad either ;)
quote:
Originally posted by Its2Die4
Hi All,
I attempted to solicit comments on another discussion group but to no avail so please indulge me I am having an inner philosophical tug of war, and want all commentaries! Succinctly, I will try to state the problem... All throughout the Old Testament there was remedy provided by God for those that were God's children (Israel) (i.e., Moses, Jonah, Prophets, Kings, Judges, etc.). Those remedies were continually provided even after God provided major remedy called the sacrificial system allowing believers to be right with God (albeit temporary). But in the New Testament has God now provided us with the one and ultimate remedy that we are ever suppose to need and desire for in the person of Jesus Christ, the ultimate sacrifice that took away all sin? Or are there instances of remedy being provided clearly, even in the New Testament beyond His life saving work, that can prove that we are to continue to look and expect messages, techniques, methods from Him to implement for our comfort while here on earth?
Interesting that parts of the New Testament strongly advocate suffering to be endured not challenged (i.e., offer yet your right cheek once the left one is struck, continue being a slave in obedience for my sake [of course there were moral expectations for the owner as well though], etc. etc..). Obviously, the theological dilemma is: is there an argument for Christians being proactive and even defensive while living within a pervasive evil system? If so, is there Biblical reference to support this? Comments please.
Regards,
Keith
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Its2Die4
Regular Member
uSA
28 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2003 : 22:27:15
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| Thank you naifgnostic! |
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Livefree
Advanced Member
USA
270 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2003 : 22:30:58
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Scriptures that were written three thousand years ago were meant for the people for whom it was written and those scriptures responded to their people. There is a gap of three, four, five thousand years between you and those scriptures. Relying on them would be as absurd as somebody who studies physics stopping at Newton and never getting to Albert Einstein.
Scriptures can't respond to living people; they can't grow. That's why in the old days many masters insisted that their sayings should not be written down, so they could keep on growing. The masters would give their message to their disciples, then the masters would be gone and the disciples would teach something to other people in their own right. They would make changes because the people had changed. Once you write in a book it becomes fixed. Nobody can change it, and if somebody does, then the followers of the book will become very angry.
I'm not telling you not to read and the study the Bible, but just know that those messages were written thousands of years ago. They are not the gospel truth.
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Bondservant
Forum Administrator
382 Posts |
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Its2Die4
Regular Member
uSA
28 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2003 : 22:41:13
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| Gee Bondservant, thanks for the great input on my inital question... geeez |
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naifgnostic
New Member
USA
4 Posts |
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Bondservant
Forum Administrator
382 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2003 : 09:25:39
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When you go to http:/truth.now.nu it advises you at the top:
Attention: This website has moved!
Please Click Here to be taken to our new location.
Don't forget to Bookmark our new URL!
The new URL is http://ecclesia.org/truth
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Livefree
Advanced Member
USA
270 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2003 : 15:33:53
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I hope I didn't offend anyone regarding my opinion of the scriptures. It wasn't meant to attack anyone's views or convictions, although it does seem to come across that way.
I'm willing to listen to any other opinions. |
Edited by - Livefree on 18 Jul 2003 15:34:48 |
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2003 : 19:37:34
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Livefree I just would have put it quite differently.
The scripture must be read in light of all knowledge known...Briggs
The scripturess are still valid when kept in their original context. Many are too lazy to learn. Yeshua is living and reigning as King but His sayings are all Jewish and all Hebrew. Likewise all the other writers, writing to goy (nations) outside of the Hebrew culture.
To say scripture does not lead to light is a misconception but you didn't say that. Ruach HaKodesh (G-d) is going to see us through the coming times of trouble. The scripture helps us to understand the nature of man and the naure of G-d that we may 'hear' the small voice that leads. |
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Livefree
Advanced Member
USA
270 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2003 : 18:42:33
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The scriptures must be read in the light of all knowledge known...Briggs
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Truth North, can you tell me what that quote means? |
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2003 : 20:38:36
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It's an 'off the top of my head' quote from Dr. Charles A. Briggs of the Brown, Driver, Briggs "A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament" fame. A leading German archeologist, Semitic Culture and Semitic Languages expert of the 17th century. It refers to translating the concepts of the bible in light of all Gnosis, archeology, and etymology which most of us don't do. (Most of us will have to look some of those words up to even know what they mean, let alone apply them to the infallible word :-)
He also said that unless the 'spirit' of a translated document can be communicated the translation is useless.
We know a lot about the historical times of Yeshua from archaeology...what they taught their children and how, what they wore, their religious practices, etc. But is is a foreign culture, completely other than what we know that can only be 'experienced' by knowledge.
Briggs was an expert at translating Hebrew words...I'll see if I can find the paper I did on it...We don't have a clue on the doctrine of the early church because the 'spirit' of the translation was, like you said, 1st century and completely foreign to us.
Take for instance 1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. This verse has a definite context and situation that it applies to. We don't know what it is as a church, partly because of the infallible word doctrine, and part laziness and apathy.
Women have been suppressed because preachers never knew the context. But the context was known by scholars 'outside' of the 'standard church'. It just wasn't taught in seminary.
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Livefree
Advanced Member
USA
270 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2003 : 21:15:19
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"He also said that unless the 'spirit' of a translated document can be communicated the translation is useless."
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Exactly. Even if you know the meaning of the words they used, the meaning we give to their words is still our own and not the actual meaning.
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Edited by - Livefree on 19 Jul 2003 21:16:12 |
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2003 : 08:12:20
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Context, Livefree, context...Something that surrounds and influences, as environment or circumstances.
We know the circumstances of the 1st century enough to correctly interpret the words...by archeology.
I definitley need to find that paper I did if you are to see what happened to allow us to just 'blow off' the contradictions we find rather than figure out where our premise is.
90% of Christian doctrine is distorted in some way out of its context.
There is only one new concept in the new testament saying of Yeshua. All His other teachings are from Torah and the Hebrew culture.
I liken it to using the UCC...You must first know why you are not subject to a jurisdiction before you can be effective in its use. |
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Livefree
Advanced Member
USA
270 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2003 : 17:22:39
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Women have been suppressed because preachers never knew the context. But the context was known by scholars 'outside' of the 'standard church'. It just wasn't taught in seminary."
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It just goes to show you these preachers didn't have a mind of their own. They believed whatever they read, and were taught; they were followers. You won't find the truth in any book, in any bible.
"By saying the word ‘beautiful’ you are bringing in the past, and all the experiences that you said were beautiful have coloured the word. Your word ‘beautiful’ contains many experiences of beauty. But this experience is totally new. Life has never been like this before. It will never be again. Why bring in the past? The present is so vast, the past is so narrow. Why look through a hole in the wall when you can come out and look at the whole sky?" Osho
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2003 : 22:56:09
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"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
Georges Santayana |
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Livefree
Advanced Member
USA
270 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2003 : 00:05:33
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Or, how about this:
... that the stories of his life (Jesus) were never meant to be a factual record of history but rather are teaching parables designed to provide ongoing spiritual guidance for generations to come. |
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sandpreacher
Junior Member
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 18:57:55
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Hi all,
I have a quick question... I am trying to learn all this and you all have been a source for me along with many others.
Can you accept something for value before filling your UCC paperwork?
I am getting conflicting information on this as well as many other parts of the process. A friend has asked me to help him learn also and this was one of the thing which we are seeing diffrerent views on.
Thanks - Mike |
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Livefree
Advanced Member
USA
270 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 00:30:06
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Yes, you can accept for value before filing your UCC paperwork, but why you would only shows you don't understand accepting for value.
When you accept for value, the SECURED PARTY (you) and the DEBTOR, (your STRAWMAN) sign the presentment. Without the UCC-1 filed, the signatures you just put on the presentment is basically worthless. |
Edited by - Livefree on 27 Jul 2003 00:34:53 |
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sandpreacher
Junior Member
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 08:49:15
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your right I don't understand it all yet... I am not in a situation that calls for that - as yet - but in reading some web info we had come across this, accepting before or without, and I could not understand how that could be...
My friend and I also have finished reading CTC 3 and now hear - here and other places - that it is basically not the correct application... frustration is setting in, though I am willing to do the work to learn this I am finding most of the work is wading through OLD and finding it hard to get NEW info... I am as a lamb... and the sheppards helpers are offering some feilds that have already gone under the plow... Thanks for your reply, any other thoughts - encouragement - directions etc. will be greatly appreciated...
Thanks - Mike |
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UCC "Redemption" Scheme
