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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jan 2007 : 06:30:51
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Greetings and salutations, brother kevin:
Peace be unto the house.
Proverbs 17:9 He that covereth a transgression seeketh love...
I was only trying to cover any possible transgression against you, so I thank you for your kind words.
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Messiah, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 17 Jan 2007 06:39:47 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2007 : 05:57:38
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...That the majority shall prevail is a rule POSTERIOR to the formation of government, and result FROM IT. It is not a rule BINDING UPON MANKIND in their natural state. There, every man is independent of all [manmade] laws, except those prescribed by nature. He is not bound by any institutions formed by his fellowMEN WITHOUT HIS CONSENT." Cruden v. Neale, 2 N.C. 338 (1776) 2 S.E. 70 Emphasis added. (Thanks, brother Harry)
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
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kevin
Advanced Member
uSA
100 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2007 : 18:01:24
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Robert and Harry,
That surley says it all, majority rule sure is a pain in the posterior.
I see an even on the horizon with the local SCHOOL folks they told me I gotta get My Daughter a physical,I told em hey shes fine and she doesnt need one,
They say its a MANDATE? thats a funny word they must be speaking from the posterior.
hehehehe,
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2007 : 09:24:18
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The oldest, and thus highest jurisdiction, of course, is that of “Nature’s God”, the Supreme Suveran [correct orthography of sovereign], the One who created the heavens, the earth, the seas, and all that in them is. This, we can be most certain, is the jurisdiction the author(s) of the Declaration of Independence were referring to when he/they spoke of the “Laws <sic> of Nature and Nature’s God”.
Governments, according to the founding document known as the Declaration of Independence, have only one Lawfully Author-ized reason for existence; “Governments are instituted among Men…to secure…their…unalienable rights”, to "guard effectually from danger; to make safe" those rights which can never be "withdrawn; withheld; alienated" from us.
Inalienable rights. Rights which can never be abridged because they are so fundamental. – Black’s Law Dictionary, Abridged Sixth Edition, page 1057 [Emphasis added]
It is by reason of this one Lawfully Author-ized function, “to secure their unalienable rights” that our ancestors gave their consent to be governed…by their own words, handwritten, in the Declaration of Independence. And, as a consequence, when the “government” fails to “secure’ our ‘unalienable rights”, it is our prerogative, nay; it is our Divine Summons, as “sovereigns of the Supreme Sovereign” to “come out from among them and be ye separate”, to return to the “separate and equal station to which the Laws <sic> of Nature and of Nature's God entitle [us]”.
You ask the profound question, brother [Harry], “What does it mean ‘retire elsewhere’?”
Jurisdiction is not a place, it never has been, it is a condition.
“The law of persons is the law of status or condition." - American Law and Procedure (1910), Vol 13, page 137
If we return to “the separate and equal station to which the Laws <sic> of Nature and of Nature's God entitle [us]”, what do we “retire” from, and where do we “retire” to? The answer to your question can be found in Noah Webster’s (c. 1825) definition for the word “retire”.
RETI'RE, v.i. 1. To withdraw; to retreat; to go from company or from a public place into privacy; as, to retire from the world… 3. To withdraw from a public station [office]. General Washington, in 1796, retired to private life. [Emphasis added]
Once we leave their jurisdiction we are no longer “RESIDENTS” in their fictions known as UNITED STATES or STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, or any other fanciful name they may wish to choose; we now live in the Kingdom of YaHuWaH, here on earth, “we live and move and have our being...in him”, in His jurisdiction, and we, “assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws <sic> of Nature and of Nature's God entitle [us]”.
When we leave their jurisdiction, we become nonpersons, one(s) having no social or legal status; simply put, we do not exist in their “world”, nor do their fictions, such as the caesar's "image and superscription", exist in ours.
...if ye be dead with the Anointed from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Ordinances is, here, translated from the Greek word dogmatizo, which is the verb form of the noun dogma, which Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defines, in part, as:
1) doctrine, decree, ordinance; 1a) of public decrees; 1b) of the Roman Senate; 1c) of rulers; 2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment. [Emphasis added]
In fact, Paul appears to be telling us that we will “perish” if we make ourselves subject to those “ordinances”.
“Touch not; taste not; handle not; which all are to perish with the using”.
The author(s) of the Declaration of Independence also wrote, “…deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…”. This, in and of itself, is a “Law of Nature”!!
“Choose you this day whom you will serve…”
“Involuntary servitude”, in my humble opinion, is against the Law of Nature and Nature’s God. However, regardless of whether that opinion is correct or not, it just so happens that it is also against the law of their own [UNITED STATES] Constitution. This being the case, we already have their permission, though the sovereigns of the Supreme Sovereign do not need it, to leave their jurisdiction.
So, what must we do to accomplish this “separation” from being a “PUBLIC PERSON” to being a “private man”? According to their founding document called the Declaration of Independence (Damn, the GUBBERMINT must absolutely abhor that document!), “out of a decent respect to the opinions of mankind,” we should “declare the causes which impel [us] to the separation”, nothing more.
The causes?
For starters, “You failed to secure our unalienable rights, that is to say, you failed to "guard effectually from danger; to make safe" those rights which can never be "withdrawn; withheld; alienated" from us, the only reason your creators gave for your very existence".
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 21 Jan 2007 05:35:01 |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2007 : 07:42:24
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Brother Robert wrote:
Verily, verily! But this is admittedly a difficult concept to grasp.
Firstly, we see that the First Commandment applies to those whom He has brought out of "double straits", i.e. out of bondage.
Question from Cornerstone Foundation:
How do we know that "the First Commandment applies ONLY to those whom He has brought out of bondage?"?
With Respect,
Marty |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2007 : 09:08:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Cornerstone Foundation
Question from Cornerstone Foundation:
How do we know that "the First Commandment applies ONLY to those whom He has brought out of bondage?"?
Greetings brother Marty:
Peace be unto the house. Long time, no see, brother!
We have come to that understanding because, it is written, no man can serve two masters, brother.
For the Greek word kurios, translated masters here, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament correctly tells us that, 1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor. "In the state" it is not Yahuwah, or "Nature's God"? Hm-m-m-m-m?
The supreme magistrate of the UNITED STATES is the PRESIDENT, not Yahuwah and the "Supremacy clause" of their CONSTITUTION is not "the Law of Nature", the Ten Commandments of Yahuwah. In fact they are forbidden in their so-called courtrooms, if we are not mistaken. Hm-m-m-m-m?
And, because the Ten Commandments of Yahuwah begin, ...I am Yahuwah thy 'Elohiym, which have brought thee out of the land of mitsrayim [double straits], out of the house of bondage.
We believe that we also see another witness of this at 1Shama'el 8:7 when the ancient "princes of 'El" (Yi-sar-el-ites) demanded an earthly ruler, Yahuwah says, "...they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them". We ask your opinion, why couldn't they serve both their earthly sovereign and Yahuwah?
And, in the New Testament, we read, "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, "We will not have this one to reign over us". When did they do this? We perceive that it was when they said, "We have no king [foundation of power; sovereign] but Caesar".
But if there be any who believe that we can serve both Yahuwah (the Author of good) and satan (the arch enemy of good) simultaneously, we should like very much to see their evidence.
Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil...
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 21 Jan 2007 09:36:54 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2007 : 20:03:16
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quote:
Originally posted by kevin
[Steven,
This whole thing has been goin on for years descrepencie and dis agreements over this and that, it is all just a symptom of something deeper, something missing, something lacking, something we are to fill up many Sons being revealed in many ways
the beast rising out of the sea is no match for the stone that fell from heaven not a bunch of little white stones or pebbles built into a wall but a living stone that grows!
a living stone,
a stone that lives it will engulf everything and whatever is not stone will just unbe out of exsistance
I give great respect to the ones like Oneisraleite and American and BatKol and others who stand for what they believe
in the end we all stand, and we can look forward to the day when all things end in this timespace everything has a season a rising and a setting
Yep. Been arguing on this subject going on years now. Just the time and money I have into studying this one item amazes me. From moving alleged teachers of this doctrine from one end of the country all the way into my town to 'learn first hand' these doctrines. Flying their child out as well. Donations, etc. Also time off of work. Time away from my wife and children. Only to learn that - when asked just the right questions, when presented with volumes of scriptures which debunk their theories - the alleged teachers finally explain the Bible just cannot be trusted. Nope. All those verses - and there are many from both the Old and New - which argue against their theory must be stricken because they 'have been lead by the spirit'. However, 'Satanas' can appear as an angel of light so I don't blame our sincere friends. I blame a crafty adversary who is very persuasive. He will stop at nothing to keep us from Corinthians 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
A dual citizen of both the Roman EMPIRE and Heaven wrote that!
Kev, the Bible is also clear where the real battle is. Our fallen nature inherited from Adam/Eve. All of this 'bad gov't' stuff
is just the symptom of our own condition. 'Satanas' would be more than happy to run us around on worrying about the symptoms (bad govt) rather than us focusing on the Real cure to the disease. Don't let anyone ever tell you that you can't apply the cure if you are a CITIZEN. Slave or free it does not matter.
I do hope you find peace!
He has given us all the things that we need for life and for true devotion, bringing us to know God himself... through them you will be able to share the divine nature. — II Peter 1:3-4a |
Edited by - BatKol on 21 Jan 2007 23:28:44 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2007 : 22:52:20
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quote:
Originally posted by oneisraelite
quote:
Originally posted by Cornerstone Foundation
Question from Cornerstone Foundation:
How do we know that "the First Commandment applies ONLY to those whom He has brought out of bondage?"?
Greetings brother Marty:
Peace be unto the house. Long time, no see, brother!
We have come to that understanding because, it is written, no man can serve two masters, brother.
For the Greek word kurios, translated masters here, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament correctly tells us that, 1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor. "In the state" it is not Yahuwah, or "Nature's God"? Hm-m-m-m-m?
The supreme magistrate of the UNITED STATES is the PRESIDENT, not Yahuwah and the "Supremacy clause" of their CONSTITUTION is not "the Law of Nature", the Ten Commandments of Yahuwah. In fact they are forbidden in their so-called courtrooms, if we are not mistaken. Hm-m-m-m-m?
And, because the Ten Commandments of Yahuwah begin, ...I am Yahuwah thy 'Elohiym, which have brought thee out of the land of mitsrayim [double straits], out of the house of bondage.
We believe that we also see another witness of this at 1Shama'el 8:7 when the ancient "princes of 'El" (Yi-sar-el-ites) demanded an earthly ruler, Yahuwah says, "...they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them". We ask your opinion, why couldn't they serve both their earthly sovereign and Yahuwah?
And, in the New Testament, we read, "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, "We will not have this one to reign over us". When did they do this? We perceive that it was when they said, "We have no king [foundation of power; sovereign] but Caesar".
But if there be any who believe that we can serve both Yahuwah (the Author of good) and satan (the arch enemy of good) simultaneously, we should like very much to see their evidence.
Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil...
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
The problem here is that oneisraelite only wants to recognise bits and pieces of the Bible.
He quotes one cannot serve two masters but leaves off the rest of the statement that one cannot serve God and mammon. He quotes 1st Samuel but does not like 1 Samuel 12 which shows Samuel instructing the israelites they should still serve God even though they have 'done evil' by choosing a 'king like the nations'.
If we apply oneisraelite's theory Samuel is giving them an impossible task. If only Samuel had oneisraelite to correct him. Paul could have used oneisraelite's advice too seeing that he was violating the theory being taught that one cannot be a citizen and still serve God. Joseph was not really a just man like the Bible says but actually breaking the first commandment and serving two masters by registering with Rome... And that golden calf 'elohim' god that was made in the fire by the Israelites when Moses was getting the commandments, that was not really a calf figurine. No sir. That was really a magistrate. Just like the 'elohim' Rachel stole from Laban and hid amongst her luggage.
Of course oneisraelite - guided by a spirit - is right because he says the Bible is corrupt. Hm-m-m-m.
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Edited by - BatKol on 21 Jan 2007 22:59:07 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2007 : 07:57:05
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Greetings and salutations, brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
And the devil [G1228], taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil [G1228] said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. And Yahu'shua answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, satan [G4567]: for it is written, Thou shalt worship Yahuwah thy 'Elohiym, and him only shalt thou serve.
We are sure that no one here minds if we choose to follow that last directive, "...and him only shalt thou serve", as best we know how.
G1228 diabolos Thayer Definition: ...2) metaphorically applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
G4567 Satanas Thayer Definition: 1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act)...
G4567 Satanas Strong's Greek Dictionary: ...the accuser...
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me from all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a set apart nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Yisra'el. - Exodus 19:5-6
For thou art an set apart people unto Yahuwah thy 'Elohiym, and Yahuwah hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, from all the nations that are upon the earth. - Deuteronomy 14:2
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people... - Titus 2:14
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a set apart nation, a peculiar people... - 1Peter 2:9
PECU'LIAR, a. [L. peculiaris, from peculium, one's own property, from pecus, cattle.] 1. Appropriate; belonging to a person and to him only. 4. Belonging to a nation, system or other thing, and not to others. - Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 22 Jan 2007 09:04:23 |
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Uncle Buck
Advanced Member
Australia
134 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2007 : 19:22:04
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Greetings brothers and sisters; peace be unto the house.
There is an important point being discussed in relation to the First and Greatest Commandment. We can't move on unless this is resolved! It appears that our beloved brother 'BATKOL'is comfortable to serve Yahuwah and other gods and to be double minded in having a form of dual citizenship. This puts him in the position of authority in deciding which god he will choose for each thought or activity or deed or action. Sort of a smorgasboard of gods to choose from. One thing I will give great credit to for our brothers Robert: and 'Batkol' is that they do attempt to let scripture interpret scripture, for that I am thankful.
Surely if we follow other 'gods' we shall perish! Remember what other 'gods' refer to: masters, chiefs, rulers, kings, and the like.
Deu 8:19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God/Yahuwah, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. Deu 8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God/Yahuwah.
The following verses indicate that failure to obey means we shall be cursed by Yahuwah.
Deu 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them; Deu 11:17 And [then] the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and [lest] ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you.
In my reading of Exodus 23:13 if I make mention of the name of other gods then I am doing contrary to the 1st Commandment.
Exd 23:13 And in all [things] that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
Exodus 23:24 warns us to obey Yahuwah.
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Matthew 22:37-38;
Jesus/Yahushua said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God/Yahuwah with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
That means we can get past the First Commandment and try and justify our thoughts and deeds using/interpreting commandments 2-9 etc...
Luke 10:25-27 is another example.
Hewbrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
1st John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Once we have established who our ABSOLUTE LORD IS and who His Anointed King in this AGE is for us then we can look at the consequences of breaking HIS second commandment which prohibits us from bowing down to and serving false gods see: Ex 23:24,32,33; Deut. 6:14; 7:16; and 1st Thess. 1:9
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If I have to be like him who is going to be like me?
James 1:25 The Perfect Law of Liberty |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2007 : 07:34:49
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Greetings and salutations, brother Rick:
Peace be unto the house.
We thank you for your post.
You wrote: Remember what other 'gods' refer to: masters, chiefs, rulers, kings, and the like.
We respond: Wouldn’t want you to forget “lords” and “queens”, mate.  But with all humour aside for the moment, here are a couple of things, red, bolded and underlined, we have to remember when talking with others on this subject...
For though there be that are called gods [supreme...magistrates], whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods [supreme...magistrates] many, and lords [masters, rulers, governors] many,) But to us there is but one God [Supreme...Magistrate], the Father [Founder], of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord [Master, Ruler, Governor] Yahu'shua, the Anointed, by whom are all things, and we by him. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge…
G3962 pater
Thayer’s Definition:
3) God is called the Father
3a) of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler
3b) of all rational and intelligent beings, whether angels or men, because he is their creator, preserver, guardian and protector
Notice that? If "God is called the Father...of the stars...because he is their creator, upholder, ruler", wouldn't the same hold true "of all rational and intelligent beings"? Allow us to rearrange those definitions to demonstrate our point.
G3962 pater
Thayer’s Definition:
3) God is called the Father
3b) of all rational and intelligent beings, whether angels or men…because he is their creator, upholder, ruler
Some may, at this point, be wondering why Joseph Thayer would think to include only "rational and intelligent beings"; he may have done so because, although Yahuwah gives all men the free will to choose "their creator" as "their...upholder' and 'ruler", only "rational and intelligent beings" will do so.
Although it may seem almost contradistinct, there are many men who are extremely intelligent, but who are, at the same time, not at all rational. In fact, Scripture tells us that he, or those, who overthrew the nations and who seek to take the place of the Creator, as the Supreme Suveran over all men, are heyel, which is from the root word halal, which means to be foolish, to act madly, act like a madman, i.e. they are irrational.
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 23 Jan 2007 07:55:27 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2007 : 09:06:15
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Greetings and salutations, brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
Some of us may now be asking, but what about Malachi 2:10?
Have we not all one father? hath not one 'Elohiym created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
Although Yahuwah is the creator of the heavens, the earth, the seas, and all that in them is, which of course includes all men, we can see by the third question, "why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?", that Malachi may be speaking only to those who are of Yahuwah's covenant.
The Ibriy word bara, which here is translated created, can also mean, "select... (as a formative process)" and was also translated as "choose". (See Ezekiel 1:19 KJV) In other words that second question might also have been translated, "hath not one 'Elohiym selected us?'.
Strong's Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary tells us that ab [H1] can mean, "father in a literal and immediate, or figurative and remote application", but what on earth does that mean? Well, Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Lexicon gives a more itemized list of some of those possible interpretations.
1) father of an individual
2) of God as father of his people
3) head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
4) ancestor; 4a) grandfather, forefathers - of person; 4b) of people
5) originator or patron of a class, profession, or art
6) of producer, generator (figuratively)
7) of benevolence and protection (figuratively)
8) term of respect and honour
9) ruler or chief (specifically)
We can pretty much surmise which of these might apply to "father", as it is being used at Malachi 2:10. Malachi, was apparently referring to Yahuwah as father of his people, the head or founder, the producer, generator of the peculiar nation known as the "princes of 'el (Yisar'el), the originator or patron of those who were of the covenant, which would make Him their Father, the ruler or chief (specifically), i.e. the true King of Yisra'el[1] (King of kings), because what one creates, one controls.
Of course, this, as with all we write here, may be in part, or in whole, wrong. Prove all things, hold fast that which is good.
[1] Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
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Uncle Buck
Advanced Member
Australia
134 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2007 : 15:42:18
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Greetings brothers and sisters; peace be unto the house. Excellent post brother Robert: and sister Kathleen:....
The following summary should be kept in mind when thinking of who the King in this Age/Eon of the anointed people of Yahuwah IS; as well as how He (Yahushua) reigns.
Are we a kingdom of Priests (and NOT princes); or are we a nation of kings (actually adopted princes of Yahuwah) AND priests (not kings OR priests). Is there a subtle difference?
Jesus: The Man Anointed as King
Chapter 11:4 of Volume 1 of Goldingay's OLD TESTAMENT THEOLOGY: ISRAEL'S GOSPEL
from page 814.
Proclaiming that God's (Yahuwah's) reign is here presupposes that God (Yahuwah) is king, but the New Testament also speaks in terms of Jesus (Yahushua) being king.
There were various options for envisaging leadership in Israel.
A leader could be a Messiah and enable Israel to regain its rightful independence and its authority over the nations.
He could be a Zealot and lead a violent revolutionary movement to that end.
He could be a Pharisee and encourage people to apply Scripture to their lives and in this way live lives of dedication to god (Yahuwah).
He culd be a Herodian and accept the necessity for realistic compromise with the Gentile powers in order to leave the people of God (Yahuwah) relatively free to live its life with Yahuwah for Yahuwah.
He could be an Essene and withdraw from the corrupt life of Jerusalem to found an alternative community elsewhere.
Each of these models has some appropriateness. Like the Messiah, Jesus (Yahushua) is concerned to be the leader of the Jewish people. LIke the Zealots, Jesus (Yahushua) believes in God's (Yahuwah's) violent overthrow of the foreign powers oppressing Israel. Like the Pharisees, Jesus (Yahushua) encourages individual righteousness - a righteousness that exceeds the Pharisees'. Like the Sadducees, he loves the temple as God's (Yahuwah's) house. Like the Herodians, he believes in rendering to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and he wants to live in this world. Like the Essenes, he sets up an alternative community.
But none of these models matches his (Yahushua's) vocation, and you could be sure he would offend everyone. He is the person God (Yahuwah) intends should rule Israel in succession to his ancestor David, but from the beginning God (Yahuwah) shows himn that this will be a much more complicated matter than it sounds, and he also has to try to show his disciples that this is so. His (Yahushua's) exaltation as king will be a different process from what one might have expected.
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If I have to be like him who is going to be like me?
James 1:25 The Perfect Law of Liberty |
Edited by - Uncle Buck on 24 Jan 2007 15:46:56 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2007 : 21:25:15
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quote:
UNCLE BUCK: Greetings brothers and sisters; peace be unto the house.
Greetings.
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There is an important point being discussed in relation to the First and Greatest Commandment. We can't move on unless this is resolved!
If we go with your methods of resolving this item the Bible becomes a contextual mess with many of the righteous people in it becoming first commandment breakers.
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It appears that our beloved brother 'BATKOL'is comfortable to serve Yahuwah and other gods and to be double minded in having a form of dual citizenship.
Well UNCLE BUCK I don’t serve other “gods” so there is no double mindedness. You are applying oneisraelite’s faulty intepretation of the masoretic Hebrew word “elohim” in a context that does not fit as I will show in detail below. By joining him in this error you have accused Paul, Daniel, Joseph, Cornelius and others in the Bible of what you accuse me of. oneisraelite tries to get around this fact by accusing the source text of being corrupt. Of course he could not simply be choosing the wrong definition. No sir. He is not wrong. The Bible is corrupt and the Jews were right about their claims against Christ and the apostles.
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This puts him in the position of authority in deciding which god he will choose for each thought or activity or deed or action. Sort of a smorgasboard of gods to choose from.
Nonsense. Your theory puts you at odds with many well spelled out verses and those who complied with them in the NT.
Romans 13:1 - Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment
1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
Heb 13:17 - Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
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One thing I will give great credit to for our brothers Robert: and 'Batkol' is that they do attempt to let scripture interpret scripture, for that I am thankful.
brother Robert is absolutely NOT letting scripture interpret scripture. When I have presented him with scriptures that - when we apply his theory - contradict his position, he simply says “corrupt scripture”. So, no he does not attempt to let scripture interpret scripture. He regularly disregards context, quotes only snippets of verses while taking as truth the false claims of the Jews made against Christ and the apostles.
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Surely if we follow other 'gods' we shall perish! Remember what other 'gods' refer to: masters, chiefs, rulers, kings, and the like.
You are having a crisis of context as if those definitions are the only ones listed. When the word “elohim” is speaking about ‘earthly rulers or judges’ it is speaking about Israelites who sit in the context of the Sinai covenant. Here is one perfect example in context:
Exodus 22:28 - Thou shalt not revile the godsH430, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
Uncle Buck, I have been challenging oneisraelite for years now to show me one verse where the word “elohim” is used in context for a non-Israelite earthly ruler. He never has and cannot. I now pass that challenge on to you. I can - however - provide you with many examples of the word "eholim" referring to the false creator deities of non-Israelites. Examples which fit perfectly with the context of the verses you list below.
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Deu 8:19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God/Yahuwah, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. Deu 8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God/Yahuwah.
The following verses indicate that failure to obey means we shall be cursed by Yahuwah.
Deu 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them; Deu 11:17 And [then] the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and [lest] ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you.
Here are those verses in action:
In this story below Solomon is already king of the Israelites with his rule firmly in place. 'gods' in this verse does not mean ruler or judge.
1 Kings 11:4 - For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other godsH430: and his heart was not perfect with YHWH his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddessH430 of the Zidonians, and after Milcem the abomination of the Ammonites. ..... 8And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their godsH430.
Also this which Jeroboam did:
1 kings 12 28Whereupon the king took counsel, and madeH6213 two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy godsH430, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 29And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan. 30And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
Note that both Jeroboam and Solomon were already Israelite kings when these imaginary gods were worshiped. These gods were not men acting as judges or rulers like in Ps 82 but rather false, imaginary gods like the golden calf god of Exodus 32. Again, it is all about the context that tells us what type of god we are dealing with. Both of these kings broke the first and second commandment. And as was promised in Deut 28, Israel was banished from the holy land and scattered amongst the nations
Just think with me for a second. It's all about context. If lower case god/elohim meant a living, physical 'ruler or judge' in the verses below, think how wacky this story would be:
Genesis 31:30-34 - And now, though thou wouldest needs be gone, because thou sore longedst after thy father’s house, yet wherefore hast thou stolen my gods? 31 And Jacob answered and said to Laban, Because I was afraid: for I said, Peradventure thou wouldest take by force thy daughters from me. 32With whomsoever thou findest thy gods, let him not live: before our brethren discern thou what is thine with me, and take it to thee. For Jacob knew not that Rachel had stolen them. 33And Laban went into Jacob’s tent, and into Leah’s tent, and into the two maidservants’ tents; but he found them not. Then went he out of Leah’s tent, and entered into Rachel’s tent. 34Now Rachel had taken the images, and put them in the camel’s furniture, and sat upon them. And Laban searched all the tent, but found them not. 35And she said to her father, Let it not displease my lord that I cannot rise up before thee; for the custom of women is upon me. And he searched, but found not the images.
Can you imagine Rachel taking Laban's 'earthly rulers or judges' and putting them on the camel and sitting on them? Surely the context and common sense tells us that 'gods' can most definately mean the imaginary fake 'gods' we find through out the bible!
or this one:
Exodus 12:17 - Thou shalt make thee no moltenH4541 godsH430.
and this:
Exodus 20:23 - Ye shall not make with me godsH430 of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
or this about the golden calf 'god':
Exodus 32:31 - And Moses returned unto YHWH, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have madeH6213 them godsH430 of gold.
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In my reading of Exodus 23:13 if I make mention of the name of other gods then I am doing contrary to the 1st Commandment.
Exd 23:13 And in all [things] that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
Exodus 23:24 warns us to obey Yahuwah.
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
Seriously, Uncle Buck please don't skim what I am about to explain to you but read it slowly and prayerfully. Firstly, you are quoting from the Sinai covenant as it pertains to Israelites in that era. The Israelites broke that covenant and had their kingdom taken from them when the rejected Christ. Secondly - and I gave you examples above - the word “gods” in those verses are not “non-Israelite earthly rulers”. UNCLE BUCK think for a second. The OT and NT is full of examples where “non-israelite earthly rulers” are being called by their names. By your rendering of the verse you quote above you make even Jesus Himself guilty of breaking Ex 23:13 for saying Caesar. THINK BROTHER!!!
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Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Matthew 22:37-38;
Jesus/Yahushua said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God/Yahuwah with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
That means we can get past the First Commandment and try and justify our thoughts and deeds using/interpreting commandments 2-9 etc...
All fine and good. However, by your private interpretations you make Paul a first commandment breaker. You even make Jesus’ parental gaurdian Joseph - who is called just (defined as “following divine law”) a breaker of the first commandment. The list goes on and on.
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Luke 10:25-27 is another example.
Hewbrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
Folks, why not take the advice? This false theory you are promoting is exactly a divers and strange doctrine. With it you condemn many righteous people in the Bible!
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1st John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Once we have established who our ABSOLUTE LORD IS and who His Anointed King in this AGE is for us then we can look at the consequences of breaking HIS second commandment which prohibits us from bowing down to and serving false gods see: Ex 23:24,32,33; Deut. 6:14; 7:16; and 1st Thess. 1:9.
By your theories Daniel breaks the first commandment. Paul breaks the first commandment. Cornelius breaks the first commandment. Samuel instructs the Israelites to break the first commandment in 1 Sam 12. Both Josephs - from the old and new testaments - break the first commandment. Romans 13 would be false. 1 Peter 2 would be bad advice. Hebrew 13:7 would be off.
Either A) all of those examples are “corrupt scripture” like brother Robert asserts or B) you guys are ignoring context and selecting the wrong definition from the list.
The answer is simply B.
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2007 : 21:44:53
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quote:
Originally posted by oneisraelite
Greetings and salutations, brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
And the devil [G1228], taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil [G1228] said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. And Yahu'shua answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, satan [G4567]: for it is written, Thou shalt worship Yahuwah thy 'Elohiym, and him only shalt thou serve.
We are sure that no one here minds if we choose to follow that last directive, "...and him only shalt thou serve", as best we know how.
G1228 diabolos Thayer Definition: ...2) metaphorically applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
G4567 Satanas Thayer Definition: 1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act)...
G4567 Satanas Strong's Greek Dictionary: ...the accuser...
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me from all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a set apart nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Yisra'el. - Exodus 19:5-6
For thou art an set apart people unto Yahuwah thy 'Elohiym, and Yahuwah hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, from all the nations that are upon the earth. - Deuteronomy 14:2
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people... - Titus 2:14
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a set apart nation, a peculiar people... - 1Peter 2:9
PECU'LIAR, a. [L. peculiaris, from peculium, one's own property, from pecus, cattle.] 1. Appropriate; belonging to a person and to him only. 4. Belonging to a nation, system or other thing, and not to others. - Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language
Dearest viewers, just when you think you've seen it all we get this above. Notice how oneisraelite quotes the devil to back up his position? He quotes the devil as if he is one to be trusted just like he quotes the Jews when they are lying to frame Christ and the apostles! Well, folks both the devil and Jews are liars in the NT.
Quoting the devil and believing him when he claims authority 'to give the kingdoms of the world to whoever he chooses' is the exact opposite of what these verses say on that same topic:
Dan 2:20-21: Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: And he changeth the times and the seasons: He removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
Dan 4:17 This matter [is] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
Dan 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
Dan 5:21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling [was] with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and [that] he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Psa 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.
Rom 13:1 - Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
I Timothy 6:15 ...Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords
Prov 16:4 - The LORD hath made every things for His own purpose, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Of course, oneisraelite has already said that the above is "corrupt scripture". Now, to add to that, he quotes the devil to back up his theory!
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Edited by - BatKol on 24 Jan 2007 21:48:06 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2007 : 08:16:01
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Greetings and salutations, brother Rick:
Peace be unto you and yours.
We are glad that you enjoyed it. We will presume, for the moment, that you were alluding to the one posted Jan 23 2007 : 07:34:49 AM, the one containing the following paragraph.
Some may, at this point, be wondering why Joseph Thayer would think to include only "rational and intelligent beings"; he may have done so because, although Yahuwah gives all men the free will to choose "their creator" as "their...upholder' and 'ruler", only "rational and intelligent beings" will do so.
We would like to provide you with a living example to demonstrate how this might work.
Typically, we are born to a natural father[1], who should, at least until we have reached the age of consent, have almost total say about what we do and what is done to us, but shortly after our nativity a certificate of lading (birth certificate) was produced and signed, generally by our mother, which reportedly makes us a "child of the STATE". Unbeknownst to the our natural mother and father, the STATE became our adoptive father (paren).
As the adoptive father, 2b) one who stands in a father’s place and looks after another in a paternal way (parens patriae), the STATE now has total say over what will, and will not, be done with the PERSON of that child, at least until he reaches the age of consent.
Because most men don't understand what has taken place, they will ignorantly ass-u-me that they are still that child's father. They therefore cannot understand how it is that the STATE can tyrannically dictate how their child will be educated. They cannot understand how it is that the STATE can take the PERSON of their child away from them, any time it so chooses. Can you imagine why it is that a natural father must go to COURT and "pray for" the STATE'S permission to have possession of his own child? Think about it, RATIONALLY!! Read the reason why in the Owner's Manual!!
Let us now take this to the next level, brother Rick.
When that child attains the age of consent, he gets to choose whom he will serve; ...choose you this day whom you will serve. At the age of consent we get to choose which god we will serve, "whether the gods which your father served", in our case the STATE, the god of the dead, or Yahuwah, the God of the Living. (See Mattith'yahu 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38)
Because many of us "received not the love of the truth", we cannot understand the fact that, by our own consent, and notwithstanding that Yahuwah created us all, Yahuwah is no longer our Father. He gave His permission, "Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee", and the people have chosen, ..."they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them". (We now have tears welling up in our eyes, for those who care to know.)
This, we hope, clarifies why we wrote...
Some may, at this point, be wondering why Joseph Thayer would think to include only "rational and intelligent beings"; he may have done so because, although Yahuwah gives all men the free will to choose "their creator" as "their...upholder' and 'ruler", only "rational and intelligent beings" will do so.
The Iewes chose the caesar, "we have no king but Caesar", because they believed that it was the caesar who gave them power and prosperity. But, before we go pointing accusatory fingers at our brother Yahudah for his choice, we might want to take a good, long, hard look in the mirror, and be completely honest with ourselves about who we have chosen?
We love you all; yes, even you, brother Steven.
Endnote:
[1] Some children, for one reason or another, never know their natural fathers. These children have first-hand knowledge of what their father, the STATE, is truly like.
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 25 Jan 2007 10:07:16 |
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Uncle Buck
Advanced Member
Australia
134 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2007 : 17:47:08
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Thankyou brother ‘Batkol’ for your response. I apologise sincerely for offending you. It was not my intention to attack you as a man rather to challenge our respective thoughts. Please forgive me my friend. I just find your position untenable from common sense. If we MUST obey the STATE do you get to pick and choose which pieces of legislation will apply to you? If it is one in all in fine! How does that enable you to obey Yahuwah when their laws are contrary to His?
quote:
In my reading of Exodus 23:13 if I make mention of the name of other gods then I am doing contrary to the 1st Commandment.
Exd 23:13 And in all [things] that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
Exodus 23:24 warns us to obey Yahuwah.
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
BATKOL responded:
Seriously, Uncle Buck please don't skim what I am about to explain to you but read it slowly and prayerfully. Firstly, you are quoting from the Sinai covenant as it pertains to Israelites in that era. The Israelites broke that covenant and had their kingdom taken from them when the rejected Christ. Secondly - and I gave you examples above - the word “gods” in those verses are not “non-Israelite earthly rulers”. UNCLE BUCK think for a second. The OT and NT is full of examples where “non-israelite earthly rulers” are being called by their names. By your rendering of the verse you quote above you make even Jesus Himself guilty of breaking Ex 23:13 for saying Caesar. THINK BROTHER!!!
I respond:
Context is crucial – I admit. There is a sense of hidden danger in obeying the words of a prostitute or harlot [including the secular State]. Why must I obey what they say instead of obeying Yahuwah? It is a spiritual journey as well as a physical one my friend. I believe that the scriptures go a little bit deeper than a literal interpretation! Do I not carry my own law in my heart and mind? Why do I have to borrow Caesar’s??? It is also my understanding that 10% of the quotes in scripture referring to elohim are in relation to men.
1Sa 2:3 Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let [not] arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD [is] a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
Psalm 73:9 They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth.
Proverbs 22:14 likens the mouth of an adulteress to a deep pit.
KJV: The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein.
Proverbs 23:27 uses the same analogy of the prostitute.
KJV: For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit.
In verses such as Jeremiah 18:22, Psalm 57:6 and Psalm 119:85 – who is it the arrogant pit digger? Why would they draw the righteous people away from Yahuwah’s law? They do it with their mouth as well as their shovel.
Sin can overpower a man. Psalm 119:133. It is NOT the ruler that is evil it is the SIN nature in the ruler that is evil. Compare the power of sin against the men of wisdom. If I obey a tyrant ruler who does not fear Yahuwah am I being truthful to scriptures such as Romans 13:1-7?
Ecclesiastes 7:19
KJV: Wisdom strengtheneth the wise more than ten mighty men which are in the city.
Ecclesiastes 10:5-6KJV: There is an evil which I have seen under the sun, as an error which proceedeth from the ruler: Folly is set in great dignity, and the {e} rich sit in low place.
Commentary: (e) They who are rich in wisdom and virtue.
Jeremiah 18:22
KJV: Let a cry be heard from their houses, when thou shalt bring a troop suddenly upon them: for they have digged a pit to take me, and hid snares for my feet.
Psalm 57:6
KJV: They have prepared a net for my steps; my soul is bowed down: they have digged a pit before me, into the midst whereof they are fallen themselves. Selah.
Psalm 119:85
KJV: The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.
[I wonder if that includes secular legislation?]
Psalm 119:133
KJV: Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.
Commentary: We must beg that the Holy Spirit would order our steps. [Not a ruler of the political State]. The dominion of sin [missing the mark] is to be dreaded and prayed against by every one. The oppression of men is often more than flesh and blood can bear; and He who knoweth our frame, will not refuse to remove it in answer to the prayers of his people.
Nehemiah 5:15
KJV: But the former governors that had been before me were chargeable unto the people, and had taken of them bread and wine, beside forty shekels of silver; yea, even their servants bare rule over the people: but so did not I, because of the fear of God.
I am not sure why you claim I meant a literal mouthing or vocalising the names of other ‘gods’. That is out of context with scripture.
As for Romans 13:1-7; 1st Peter 2:13 onwards and Hebrews 13:17 the same issues arise:
Question - who made the secular State YOUR governing authority? You did through delegating your authority from Yahuwah to another. You are supposed to use wisdom and serve not be a slave under those who to whom you without wisdom have enabled to exercise authority over you. Don’t you think it is odd that there are only 3 little scriptures for a concept that screams at us all. Persecution isn’t the glory; it is the obedience to His will and law that is glorified in persecution.
How can you seriously claim any STATE as a corporate entity [dead thing] is worshipping Yahuwah??????? Seriously - THINK BROTHER! A pack of sinners in a parliament or senate or congress MAKING laws OVER YOU? That is enslaving you to sin! What crap is coming out of their mouths and what pits are they digging with their tongues for YOU?
brother Rick:
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If I have to be like him who is going to be like me?
James 1:25 The Perfect Law of Liberty |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2007 : 08:09:16
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Greetings and salutations, brother Rick:
Peace be unto you and yours.
You wrote: I believe that the scriptures go a little bit deeper than a literal interpretation!
We respond: Verily! As a witness, we give you this, brother Rick.
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables [fictious narratives]? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Common sense (rational thinking) tells us that if the Good Tidings of the Kingdom of Yahuwah was nothing more than "literal interpretation", then there would be no "mystery", no, "1b) a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding"[1].
You wrote: I just find your position untenable from common sense.
untenable ADJECTIVE: 1. Being such that defense or maintenance is impossible: an untenable position
Common sense, that power of the mind which, by a kind of instinct, or a short process of reasoning, perceives truth, the relation of things, cause and effect, &c. and hence enables the possessor to discern what is right, useful, expedient, or proper, and adopt the best meams to accomplish his purpose. This power seems to be the gift of nature [Nature's God], improved by experience and observation.
We respond: What a marvelous choice of words!! The antonym for "common sense" is "absurd" which means, "Opposed to manifest truth; inconsistent with reason or the plain dictates of common sense".
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit [mind[2]] of Yahuwah: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually [mentally] discerned.
[1] Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
[2] 1Corinthians 2:16 defines "the spirit of Yahuwah" for us, i.e. For who hath known the mind of Yahuwah...
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 26 Jan 2007 09:22:05 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2007 : 17:44:47
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quote:
Thank you brother ‘Batkol’ for your response.
Thank God.
quote:
I apologise sincerely for offending you. It was not my intention to attack you as a man rather to challenge our respective thoughts. Please forgive me my friend.
You did not offend me at all. I understand the nuances of communicating on the internet. Maybe I can get you to understand where I have failed with brother Robert. I will not personally attack you, just your assertions.
quote:
I just find your position untenable from common sense.
Really? You never speak to the bottom line of my position. If we apply your theory - like I have been pointing out - then many of the righteous people in scripture are not righteous after all. Many of the contexts also are out of whack. This is the root problem that crops up when considering your choice of definition and application of certain words.
Now, brother Robert (Love you too bro!) gets around the many scriptures and examples I bring up by saying "corrupt scripture".
Are you going to use this too or just keep skipping over most of what I put forth that refutes your claims?
quote:
If we MUST obey the STATE do you get to pick and choose which pieces of legislation will apply to you?
The applicable legislation depends on what you are engaged in.
quote:
If it is one in all in fine! How does that enable you to obey Yahuwah when their laws are contrary to His?
Firstly, there are excellent examples in the Bible which show us exactly how to handle a conflict between God’s laws and man’s laws. Daniel is a great example even though - if we apply you and brother Robert's theory - he would be guilty of breaking the first commandment and serving two masters by simply being a high ranking Babylon official. Daniel followed every law of Babylon while also following all of God‘s laws. However, thinking to capitalize on Daniel’s obedience to God, his political enemies had to INVENT a law that would cause him break man’s law.
Read this:
Daniel 6:4 - 8 Then the presidents and princes sought to find occasion against Daniel concerning the kingdom; but they could find none occasion nor fault; forasmuch as he [was] faithful, neither was there any error or fault found in him. Then said these men, We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel, except we find [it] against him concerning the law of his God. Then these presidents and princes assembled together to the king, and said thus unto him, King Darius, live for ever. All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions. Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.
So UNCLE BUCK, that is just one example.
Secondly, show me a law that I am compelled to follow by being a citizen of USA that is in direct opposition to what is found in the NT.
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In my reading of Exodus 23:13 if I make mention of the name of other gods then I am doing contrary to the 1st Commandment.
Exd 23:13 And in all [things] that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
Exodus 23:24 warns us to obey Yahuwah.
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
BATKOL responded:
Seriously, Uncle Buck please don't skim what I am about to explain to you but read it slowly and prayerfully. Firstly, you are quoting from the Sinai covenant as it pertains to Israelites in that era. The Israelites broke that covenant and had their kingdom taken from them when the rejected Christ. Secondly - and I gave you examples above - the word “gods” in those verses are not “non-Israelite earthly rulers”. UNCLE BUCK think for a second. The OT and NT is full of examples where “non-israelite earthly rulers” are being called by their names. By your rendering of the verse you quote above you make even Jesus Himself guilty of breaking Ex 23:13 for saying Caesar. THINK BROTHER!!!
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I respond:
Context is crucial – I admit.
UNCLE BUCK, then why do you disregard it? By your own rendering of Exodus 23:13 you make Christ Himself a breaker of the first commandment by making mention of the name Caesar. I am not letting you slide by and skip over this - or even back peddle - because your reasoning on this item is the key to your misunderstanding seeing as you yourself say when speaking about the first commandment “Remember what other 'gods' refer to: masters, chiefs, rulers, kings, and the like.”
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There is a sense of hidden danger in obeying the words of a prostitute or harlot [including the secular State]. So Why must I obey what they say instead of obeying Yahuwah?
I don’t quite follow who “they” are in your statement above. Is “they” those who wrote Romans 13, 1Pe 2:13, Heb 13:17 etc? Is it Paul, the Roman Citizen? Is it Joseph - Christ’s parental guardian - who is called righteous yet also registered with the EMPIRE?
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It is a spiritual journey as well as a physical one my friend. I believe that the scriptures go a little bit deeper than a literal interpretation!
They go far deeper than a literal interpretation but what you are doing is making a good many of the literal people in the scriptures - including Christ Himself - to be first commandment breakers in with your private interpretation.
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Do I not carry my own law in my heart and mind?
You do. That does not necessarily mean it is God’s law especially when you render God’s law in such a way that turns many of His righteous servants as first commandment breakers.
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Why do I have to borrow Caesar’s???
Only you can answer that one as I am not living in your body, spending your SCRIP, using your INTERNET CONTRACT, etc.
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It is also my understanding that 10% of the quotes in scripture referring to elohim are in relation to men.
Since you ignored - or simply cannot refute the examples I provided on 'elohim' in my last post - I will state for the readers that you have not provided even ONE example of the word “elohim” where it is referring to a flesh man who is not an Israelite. The only example you have given is one of the definitions out of Strong’s yet you fail to show the actual word being used for a non-Israelite when it refers to a flesh being.
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If I obey a tyrant ruler who does not fear Yahuwah am I being truthful to scriptures such as Romans 13:1-7?
Yes, as long as whatever ruler does not require you to personally break God’s law. Consider that Paul wrote his epistle well after the Roman republic was overthrown and established as an Empire. Consider Daniel. Consider Joseph. The Bible shows these folks as righteous. Consider Christ Himself. He certainly did not teach opposition to Caesar because the Jews, in an effort to frame Him - claimed that He did yet - upon examination - the historical tyrant Pilate stated, "I find no fault with this man". He also knew the Jews were just trying to set Christ up to frame.
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I am not sure why you claim I meant a literal mouthing or vocalising the names of other ‘gods’. That is out of context with scripture.
Because - while we are discussing the first commandment and meaning of the word “gods” - you claimed “Remember what other 'gods' refer to: masters, chiefs, rulers, kings, and the like.” One of the main topics of this thread is the first commandment and you yourself said we have to come to an understanding on that point before we can go any further. Also, saying that "elohim" means a GOVT ruler in the first commandment is out of context with "letting scripture interpret scripture" - as I have proven - yet neither you nor brother Robert has a problem with disregarding context on that point.
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As for Romans 13:1-7; 1st Peter 2:13 onwards and Hebrews 13:17 the same issues arise:
Question - who made the secular State YOUR governing authority?
The authors of those verses clearly understand that God is the one who appoints rulers. These many scriptures clearly explain that fact:
Rom 13:1 - Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Dan 2:20-21: Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: And he changeth the times and the seasons: He removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
Dan 4:17 This matter [is] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
Dan 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
Dan 5:21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling [was] with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and [that] he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Psa 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.
I Timothy 6:15 ...Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords
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You did through delegating your authority from Yahuwah to another.
Nonsense. See the above.
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You are supposed to use wisdom and serve not be a slave under those who to whom you without wisdom have enabled to exercise authority over you.
Don’t you think it is odd that there are only 3 little scriptures for a concept that screams at us all.
I have given you far more than three scriptures to support my position. I have given you examples of exact situations which speak directly to this issue.
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Persecution isn’t the glory; it is the obedience to His will and law that is glorified in persecution.
How can you seriously claim any STATE as a corporate entity [dead thing] is worshipping Yahuwah???????
I am not claiming that. You are trying to say that is what I am saying based on your own linguistic misunderstandings and out of context applications. I have provided you with so many examples from the Bible - from actual point blank instructions from the Apostles down to righteous examples who people who actually lived God’s laws - that support my position.
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Seriously - THINK BROTHER! A pack of sinners in a parliament or senate or congress MAKING laws OVER YOU? That is enslaving you to sin! What crap is coming out of their mouths and what pits are they digging with their tongues for YOU?
brother Rick:
Brother Rick, on point if you dare to answer this. Please share for us the details of your internet CONTRACT by telling us exactly who made those laws which govern that CONTRACT which brings you here. If you are also feeling bold, pull out some SCRIP and tell us who’s
REALM claims issuance? Why do you have tickets to enter that REALM?
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Edited by - BatKol on 29 Jan 2007 16:20:53 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2007 : 11:12:58
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Greetings and salutations, brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
Thought some of you might like (this means some of you might not like) to see this response (edited) to a beloved brother of ours.
Greetings and salutations, brother ******:
Peace be unto the house.
One thing at a time, brother. Let us begin here, to see if we can have any kind of meeting of the minds.
You wrote: How do you participate in the use of lawful currency (vice federal reserve notes - a benefit to carry and exchange paper [backed by the "full faith and credit of the 'nation'"] instead of the lawful currency [dollars as defined by "The Coin Act" of 1792 - 90% silver, 10% amalgum] gold and/or silver [standard weights and measures as defined by Our Father])?
We respond: “Federal reserve notes...shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.”
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/12/411.html (Our thanks to brother Jay for this pearl.)
You continued: This was a question posed to me: If you use dollar bills (frns) issued by the Federal Reserve and authorized by the "U.S. government", aren't you recognizing (and therefore accepting) their value? If you recognize/accept their value, aren't you participating in unjust weights and measures, as well as accepting the benefit of carrying their non-redeemable notes which are backed not on substance, but FAITH in THEM?
We respond: Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne…
To the mind of Messiah, this is one of the meanest interpretations one could possibly put on the Scriptures regarding “just weights and balances (scales)”. Using that irrational premise you couldn’t buy gold and silver with those “worthless” FeRNs any more than you could buy food and clothing with them!! And, whom would you judge as having the evil intent, the one who bought gold and silver with them, or the one who bought shelter, food and clothing for his family with them. You be a judge of Yisra’el, brother.
Isn’t all value nothing more than a perception? If you were cold, which would be worth more to you, a blanket or gold and silver? What would you use the gold and silver for, if someone did perceive it had value, and you were cold? You’d use it to buy the blanket!
Go ahead, laugh at the Indians who made that trade. If we were to laugh at anyone, we would laugh at those who received the flashy bauble (gold and silver) in lieu of true wealth. Thus saith Lord Yahuwah; “…their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of Yahuwah: they (silver and gold) shall not satisfy their souls (won't make them happy), neither fill their bowels (and they can't eat it): because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.
We are instructed to rightly divide the Word of Truth, so let us proceed to look at Yahuwah’s instructions concerning “just weights and balances”, with an anointed mind, i.e. with the rational mind Yahuwah breathed into us.
Leviticus 19:36 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard [measure], in weight [weighing], or in measure [a measure (for liquids)]. Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am Yahuwah your ‘Elohiym, which brought you out of the land of mitsrayim.
Deuteronomy 25:13 Thou shalt not have in thy bag divers weights, a great and a small. 14 Thou shalt not have in thine house divers measures, a great and a small. 15 But thou shalt have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure shalt thou have: that thy days may be lengthened in the land which Yahuwah thy ‘Elohiym giveth thee. 16 For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto Yahuwah thy ‘Elohiym.
Proverbs 16:11 A just weight and balance are Yahuwah’s…
Proverbs 20:10 Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to Yahuwah.
Proverbs 20:23 Divers weights are an abomination unto Yahuwah; and a false balance is not good.
Mica’yahu [Michah] 6:10 Are there yet the treasures of wickedness in the house of the wicked, and the scant measure that is abominable? 11 Shall I count them pure with the wicked balances, and with the bag of deceitful weights? 12 For the rich men thereof are full of unjust gain, and the inhabitants thereof have spoken lies, and their tongue is deceitful in their mouth.
When we look at these directives and admonitions of Yahuwah with a rational mind, we see that He is telling us, His citizens, not to use unjust weights and scales, weights and scales intended to cheat the seller or buyer with! And, figuratively, weights and scales intended to pervert judgment with.
What are your intentions, my beloved brother? Do you use FeRNs with the intent to cheat someone? Do you snigger (laugh in your sleeve) every time you use them to buy shelter, food and clothing for your family, thinking something like, “Tricked that ignorant UNITED STATES citizen into accepting worthless paper and increasing his debt”?
We honestly answer that question with, “We do not!” just as, we are sure, you too answered it.
But what of those who, while truly believing that FeRNs are worthless pieces of paper, trade them for gold and silver? Do you suppose that, in their hearts, they believe that they have gained something for nothing? We intuitively answer, Yes, they do!! They do it with, in our opinion, the deliberate intention of swindling their brothers and sisters. Do they they not take something they believe to be totally worthless and proceed to trade it to their own kinsman for something they believe to be of great value?
SWIN'DLE, v.t. To cheat and defraud grossly, or with deliberate artifice; as, to swindle a man out of his property. – Webster’s 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Therein lies the abomination of unjust weights and balances.
What are your feelings on this portion of our reply, brother. Let us, you and I, iron all the wrinkles out of this one, before moving on to the others. Agreed?
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 28 Jan 2007 13:26:17 |
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The Kingdom of Yahuwah
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