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berkano
Advanced Member
uSA
129 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Apr 2004 : 01:27:55
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Oyez and Greetings All:
I thought about posting this under "holy days" thread but changed my mind realizing it could be a lengthy discussion all by itself.
I posted the following at another forum and I feel it is very relevant to some of the discussions here.
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I would like to submit some more statements and scriptures regarding the "lunar sabbath" for comment.
I have researched a bit more regarding the lunar sabbath I posited earlier. Some would contend that the modern Jewish calendar is the same calendar kept by the ancient Hebrews under Moses, and the sabbath falls on Saturday. I digress from this upon an inspection of the scripture. Although I have not been able yet to fully examine and ponder the hundreds of relevant passages, I have found enough so far that indicate that no current calendar in use can properly account the sabbath days as commanded by Yahweh. I know for certain what the sabbath is NOT. It is neither Sunday nor Saturday. It is not reckoned by heathen calendars, but rather by a pure lunar calendar.
For instance the Book of Numbers gives solid proof that the beginning of each ancient Hebrew month was definitely marked by the day of the new moon:
"And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no
customary work. For you it is a day of blowing the
trumpets. You shall offer a burnt offering as a sweet
aroma to the LORD: one young bull, one ram, and seven
lambs in their first year, with out blemish. Their
grain offering shall be fine flour mixed with oil:
three-tenths of an ephah for the bull, two-tenths for
the ram, and one-tenth for each of the seven lambs;
also one kid of the goats as a sin offering, to make
atonement for you; besides the burnt offering with
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
its grain offering for the New Moon, the regular
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
burnt offering with its grain offering, and their
drink offerings, according to their ordinance, as a
sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD
[Numbers 29:1-6]
The context of this above passage clearly shows the first day of the month is marked by the new moon, as per the parts highlighted with upward chevrons [^^^]. This first day of the month is a day of doing no customary work. This same offering is to be offered at the beginning of all months, each beginning day being a new moon day:
At the beginnings of your months you shall present
a burnt offering to the LORD: two young bulls, one
ram, and seven lambs in their first year, with out
blemish; three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as
a grain offering, mixed with oil, for the one ram;
and one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour, mixed with
oil, as a grain offering for each lamb, as a burnt
offering of sweet aroma, an offering made by fire
to the LORD. Their drink offering shall be half a
hin of wine for a bull, one-third of a hin for a ram,
and one- fourth of a hin for a lamb; this is the burnt
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
offering for each month through out the months of the year.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[Numbers 28:11-14]
Clearly the new moon marks the first day of each month, and clearly each new moon day is an offering day of worship, or the first sabbath day of the month.
And the new moon day is a holy day as is the sabbath:
Thus says the LORD God: “The gate way of the inner
court that faces to ward the east shall be shut the
six working days; but on the Sabbath it shall be
opened, and on the day of the New Moon it shall be
opened. The prince shall enter by way of the
vestibule of that gate way from the out side, and
stand by the gate post. The priests shall prepare
his burnt of fering and his peace offerings. He shall
worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall
go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening.
Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the
entrance to this gateway be fore the LORD on the
Sabbaths and the New Moons.
[Ezekiel 46:1-3]
The new moon days are days of worship at the gates of the temple!
And notice that God reckons time once more by the moons and sabbaths:
And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to
another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh
shall come to worship be fore Me,” saith the LORD.
[Isaiah 66:23]
This passage declares each New Moon day to be a day of worship, which means not a day of work.
The new moon day of the seventh month is clearly declared a sabbath day by Yahweh:
Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘In the seventh
month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
sabbath rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy
^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and
you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD.’
[Leviticus 23:24-24]
The first day of the seventh month here is declared a "sabbath rest" on which no customary work shall be done. This is the same first day of the seventh month that is declared to be marked by the new moon in the quote above [Numbers 29:1-6]. Thus the first day of that month is always measured by the sighting of the new moon, and it is always a sabbath rest day. That would make the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of each month, sabbaths, accounting six days of work between each. The Roman calendar cannot account for this because the weeks are independent of the months, whereas with the ancient Hebrew calendar the first day of the first week begins on the new moon each month, as borne out in the scriptures quoted above. Since the first day of each month is a sabbath, then automatically the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days are automatically and easily figured as sabbaths. In ancient Israel the priests had the duty to watch the moon carefully and made calculations just in case the anticipated new moon day clouded the moon, to declared the correct first day of the month since the length of the lunar cycle can vary from a few hours to a day from month to month.
So there is much more to the lunar sabbath theory than just theory. As I had believed before that current calendars cannot account for the sabbath because of the seven-day week that has no relationship to the calendar, we can see that the weeks can be marked by the cycle of the moon in the sky, each month, and not beforehand, as lunation varies from time-to-time.
Notes: the first new moon day of the month was not a "seventh day" but kept as a sabbath rest, nonetheless. Following this day are four "seventh days," so that there are at least five sabbath rests each month. This seems contiguous to the Shuwai sabbaths of the syriac calendar of the old Syrian church, which to my knowledge is no longer observed, but instead held up like a cultural icon of a bygone era.
The truth is out there. I believe I know what it is NOT, but knowing what it IS requires something more convincing than just words written by men on paper.
-- Berkano
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For peace to prevail:
the means must sanctify the end.
--------------------------------
True Words: http://word.true.ws |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2004 : 11:10:57
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Hi Berkano,
The verses you quote all have codesh as the Hebrew word which in the version you are using shows up as "New Moon." The KJV has some that way, others as "month." I believe codesh should always be 'month,' as it is translated a far majority of the time, and not 'new moon.'
What about these passages?
Exodus 19:
1* ¶ In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
2* For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
...
10* And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
11* And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
==> Sanctify themselves (as I read it on) 3/4 and 3/5, or do you figure different days? (I understand "In the third month, ... , the same day" to mean 3/3, with them camping for the night, and Moses going up to the mountain the next day, 3/4.)
Zecariah 7:
1* ¶ And it came to pass in the fourth year of king Darius, that the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah in the fourth day of the ninth month, even in Chisleu;
2* When they had sent unto the house of God Sherezer and Regemmelech, and their men, to pray before the LORD,
==> In the temple on 9/4.
How would these holy/worship days reconcile with your understanding of a lunar month?
Walter |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2004 : 12:52:56
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Greetings,
the "new moon" is a mis-translation.
New moon reads...first of the month, and there are twelve months in a year.
May Father's Spirit blow through the open mind and heart. The wind shall blow away the chaff, leaving only the wheat. |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 12:33:41
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| For what it's worth, there is a website dedicated to the Lunar Shabbat concept www.lunarsabbath.com. I even purchased the booklet from this organization but was still unconvinced although it offers an interesting argument in favour of the Lunar Shabbat. One of the big points against this concept is that the Shabbat as it is gauged in Genesis is to work six days and rest on the seventh. The Lunar Shabbat disrupts this formula. |
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Tiza
Regular Member
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2004 : 17:44:17
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quote:
Originally posted by berkano
Oyez and Greetings All:
"And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no
customary work. For you it is a day of blowing the
trumpets. True Words: http://word.true.ws
Hello,
Your interpretations are pretty far-fetched. The reason that one is to WATCH for the first day of the 7th month is because it's the Day of Trumpets and is a high sabbath. The reason that one is to WATCH for the first day of the 1st month, Abib, is to help in the count for Passover. Both ends of the feast days, the spring ones and the fall ones, depend on each other and you have to know the new moons for these two times. New moons are not and never have been called a sabbath at all.
Number one, when was the sabbath day established in Genesis? Wasn't it the 7th day? Yes, I know the luminaries were made to appear in the shamayim and they were for the moadi, but the sabbath day was established and blessed on the 7th day of the creation week. And while the weekly sabbath day is many things: a sign, a commandment, a statute, a moadi, it doesn't mean that it's not to be kept every 7th day. The fact that it's every 7th day shows it's an appointed time (a moadi) because it's appointed on the 7th day of every week.
Number two, did Yahushua the messiah argue with the Jewish Religious leaders about the day that they were keeping as the sabbath was incorrect? I know that he knew that the things they were doing on the 7th day (weekly sabbath) were incorrect, but he never argued about the fact that they were keeping the wrong day.
Those are just two things and the interpretations of the ones who are teaching a lunar sabbath will not stand because they are far off from teaching any truth.
Tiza |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2004 : 19:36:50
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Tiza said: Number two, did Yahushua the messiah argue with the Jewish Religious leaders about the day that they were keeping as the sabbath was incorrect?
Steve: I agree. "The scribes and pharisees sit on Moses' seat therefore do all they command... just don't do as they do". |
Edited by - BatKol on 19 Apr 2004 22:01:39 |
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Tiza
Regular Member
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 16:02:49
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quote:
Originally posted by BatKol
Tiza said: Number two, did Yahushua the messiah argue with the Jewish Religious leaders about the day that they were keeping as the sabbath was incorrect?
Steve: I agree. "The scribes and pharisees sit on Moses' seat therefore do all they command... just don't do as they do".
And what does it mean to "sit in the seat of Moses"?
ANSWER: It means that when the Pharisees and scribes read from the Torah, do those things that's written in the Torah, but don't do after their (Pharisees and scribes) own works because they say stuff and don't do it themselves, i.e., they were hypocrites (v. 13).
Shem Tob Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, "Then Yahushua spoke to the people and to his disciples saying: Upon the seat of Moses the Pharisees and the sages sit. Now all which (they) say to you keep and do; but (according to) their ordiances and deeds do not do because they say and do not."
For example, they put 39 additional manmade laws surrounding the sabbath day creating a burden on mankind. They even accused Yahushua of breaking the sabbath for healing people, but this charge wouldn't hold because it's not against what is taught in the Torah. It was only their hard-hearted teachings. As a matter of fact, it was an act of love to heal someone on the sabbath day. Yahushua was doing Yahweh's work!
Tiza |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 20:41:44
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Nicely put Tiza. Nehemiah Gorden, who is a translator on the DSS project in Israel, did a great talk on the Shem Tov on PalTalk a few months back. Thanks for the excellent post.
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Edited by - BatKol on 20 Apr 2004 20:45:10 |
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Tiza
Regular Member
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 20:42:40
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quote:
Originally posted by berkano
Oyez and Greetings All:
I thought about posting this under "holy days" thread but changed my mind realizing it could be a lengthy discussion all by itself.
I posted the following at another forum and I feel it is very relevant to some of the discussions here.
-----------------------------------------
I would like to submit some more statements and scriptures regarding the "lunar sabbath" for comment.
I have researched a bit more regarding the lunar sabbath I posited earlier. Some would contend that the modern Jewish calendar is the same calendar kept by the ancient Hebrews under Moses, and the sabbath falls on Saturday. I digress from this upon an inspection of the scripture. Although I have not been able yet to fully examine and ponder the hundreds of relevant passages, I have found enough so far that indicate that no current calendar in use can properly account the sabbath days as commanded by Yahweh. I know for certain what the sabbath is NOT. It is neither Sunday nor Saturday. It is not reckoned by heathen calendars, but rather by a pure lunar calendar.
For instance the Book of Numbers gives solid proof that the beginning of each ancient Hebrew month was definitely marked by the day of the new moon:
"And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no
customary work. For you it is a day of blowing the
trumpets. You shall offer a burnt offering as a sweet
aroma to the LORD: one young bull, one ram, and seven
lambs in their first year, with out blemish. Their
grain offering shall be fine flour mixed with oil:
three-tenths of an ephah for the bull, two-tenths for
the ram, and one-tenth for each of the seven lambs;
also one kid of the goats as a sin offering, to make
atonement for you; besides the burnt offering with
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
its grain offering for the New Moon, the regular
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
burnt offering with its grain offering, and their
drink offerings, according to their ordinance, as a
sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD
[Numbers 29:1-6]
The context of this above passage clearly shows the first day of the month is marked by the new moon, as per the parts highlighted with upward chevrons [^^^]. This first day of the month is a day of doing no customary work. This same offering is to be offered at the beginning of all months, each beginning day being a new moon day:
At the beginnings of your months you shall present
a burnt offering to the LORD: two young bulls, one
ram, and seven lambs in their first year, with out
blemish; three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as
a grain offering, mixed with oil, for the one ram;
and one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour, mixed with
oil, as a grain offering for each lamb, as a burnt
offering of sweet aroma, an offering made by fire
to the LORD. Their drink offering shall be half a
hin of wine for a bull, one-third of a hin for a ram,
and one- fourth of a hin for a lamb; this is the burnt
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
offering for each month through out the months of the year.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[Numbers 28:11-14]
Clearly the new moon marks the first day of each month, and clearly each new moon day is an offering day of worship, or the first sabbath day of the month.
And the new moon day is a holy day as is the sabbath:
Thus says the LORD God: “The gate way of the inner
court that faces to ward the east shall be shut the
six working days; but on the Sabbath it shall be
opened, and on the day of the New Moon it shall be
opened. The prince shall enter by way of the
vestibule of that gate way from the out side, and
stand by the gate post. The priests shall prepare
his burnt of fering and his peace offerings. He shall
worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall
go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening.
Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the
entrance to this gateway be fore the LORD on the
Sabbaths and the New Moons.
[Ezekiel 46:1-3]
The new moon days are days of worship at the gates of the temple!
And notice that God reckons time once more by the moons and sabbaths:
And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to
another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh
shall come to worship be fore Me,” saith the LORD.
-------------------------------
For peace to prevail:
the means must sanctify the end.
--------------------------------
True Words: http://word.true.ws
Hello,
It would seem to me that part of this overall problem of thinking that there's some scriptural doctrine of a lunar sabbath, specifically lies with misunderstandings about words in the Scriptures that are used to let us gain an understanding of exactly what a sabbath(s) is.
For example, you will never, never see a new moon called a high sabbath, unless of course it's the first day of the seventh moon (month) which is a high sabbath, called the Day of the Blowing of the Trumpets. What I'm trying to say is a moad (singular) moadi and moaduth (plural) and moadim (collective noun) mean an appointed time, whether it's talking about a festival or another sacred day.
Next, you have these specific words: khag, plural khagi, a festival, or a victim therefore:--(solemn) feast (day), sacrifice, solemnity (see Strongs Heb. 2282)
Three periods of the moadi are classifed as a khag of Yahweh, which are the 7-day khag of Unleavened Bread (Exod. 23:14f, 34:18 & Deut 16:16), also called the 7-day Festival of Passover (Exod. 12:11-14, 34:25; Ezek 45:21). Then you have the khag of Weeks (Pentecost; Shabuath) and next, you have the 7-day Festival (khag) of Tabernacles.
The Day of the Blowing of the Trumpets is not a khag, but it is a high sabbath regardless. Also, the Day of Atonement is not a khag. It is a day of fasting and high sabbath.
Again, certain distinctions must be made between the sabbaths and the day of the new moon. The time of the new moon is never called a sabbath (except the first day of the 7th month) or is there a command to keep the rest of the new moons, although one has to watch for the 1st new moon in Abib to set the Passover timing. However, there are very specific rules which apply. If anyone is interested, they can download these articles for free entitled "Rules for the New Moon" and "The Beginning of the Year":
http://yahweh.org/articles.html
Also, at this same Web site and for free, you can download this book, "The Festivals and Sacred Days of Yahweh." There is a chapter that helps one gain foundational language in the Scriptures and specifically what is being said. It will help those who are listening to many interpretations that are simply not scriptural at all, but in fact are simply made up by somebody. Gaining knowledge of what the words mean helps you gain a knowledge of what exactly Yahweh is telling us.
In Yahweh,
Tiza
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FleeBabylon
Junior Member
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2004 : 11:33:16
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Another problem with the looney...err..uh...lunar Sabbath:
If it is reckoned within the context of the moon, then there would only be one Sabbath per month(moon) because there is only one "seventh day" within each monthly cycle.
By contrast, the commands to work six days and rest the seventh, clearly establish the weekly cycle, independent of any astronomical sign.
It seems such a simple command- work 6 days- rest the 7th- yet luinar sabbatarians can not fulfill this simple precept, but turn it into a complex scheme that is in no way supported by the Word.
There is nowhere in scripture any connection between the Sabbath and the moon- and the only evidence in history of anyone practicing such a reckoning, is the ancient Babylonians!
"The right to life is the source of all rights--and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave."
-Ayn Rand |
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Tiza
Regular Member
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2004 : 12:00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by FleeBabylon
Another problem with the looney...err..uh...lunar Sabbath:
If it is reckoned within the context of the moon, then there would only be one Sabbath per month(moon) because there is only one "seventh day" within each monthly cycle.
By contrast, the commands to work six days and rest the seventh, clearly establish the weekly cycle, independent of any astronomical sign.
It seems such a simple command- work 6 days- rest the 7th- yet luinar sabbatarians can not fulfill this simple precept, but turn it into a complex scheme that is in no way supported by the Word.
There is nowhere in scripture any connection between the Sabbath and the moon- and the only evidence in history of anyone practicing such a reckoning, is the ancient Babylonians!
"The right to life is the source of all rights--and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave."
-Ayn Rand
Hello,
Yes, I agree. The sabbath cycle was blessed, established and consecrated during the first week of the Adamic creation. It was then set in place, and is an appointed time since that time.
I didn't even go into history on my other posts yet. Just take the suppression of the sabbath day by Rome. There are actually several things that preserves the sabbath day timing. One is the scrupulous observance of the Roman church of the first day of the week and it seems no one even considers this point. Another one is the Jewish observance of the sabbath.
The early assemblies kept the sabbath. This is proven in history. And by "sabbath," I mean the "7th day."
Socrates Scholasticus, 440 C.E.:
"For although almost all the assemblies throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and Rome, on account of some ancient TRADITION, have CEASED to do this (5:22)."
Note that they had previously kept the sabbath because they "CEASED." Also note the datings of the writers.
Sozomen, 443-450 C.E.:
"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or Alexandria (7:19)."
So not only is the lunar sabbath an unsound scriptural doctrine, but these people believing in this made-up doctrine must rewrite history to make their doctrines fit.
Tiza |
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berkano
Advanced Member
uSA
129 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 22:04:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert-James
Greetings,
the "new moon" is a mis-translation.
New moon reads...first of the month, and there are twelve months in a year.
May Father's Spirit blow through the open mind and heart. The wind shall blow away the chaff, leaving only the wheat.
Unfortunately I have a counter for every argument against lunar sabbath that can be devised. I have spent months studying this and have not come even close to conclusion, but the fact remains that neither Saturday nor Sunday are the sabbaton, and the sabbaton cannot be determined using the perpetual 7-day week as it is not Biblical.
I now without a doubt that just about EVERYONE is ignorant regarding the true Weekly Sabbath, including the Saturday-sabbath Jews. I have already quoted the scriptures that make it very clear that the Weekly sabbaths fall on days contiguous to the phases of the moon. This alone makes it clear that the seven-day Julian week cannot account the sabbath.
Month and New Moon are interchangeable in word "chodesh" of ancient hebrew because the beginning of each month was determined by the new moon and chodesh meant both, which is why the KJV translators used both "month" and "new moon" interchangeably, because it did not really matter: However, "New moon" is more accurate translation of ancient word "chodesh" because that is how the Hebrews marked a new month. It's the same in English. The English word month originally meant month and moon. The word, "month" in modern english comes from OE > monath, month, moon > IndoEur > me, to measure, and IndoEur > me, law, measurement, bound.
The ancient European language makes it clear that moon was synonymous with the measure of law and time, because measure, month, and moon come from the same word, "me" {may}. See below for more:
-- Berkano
"When YEHOVAH God was ready to lead the children of Israel out of Egyptian bondage, He gave his servant Moses the following instructions Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you (Exodus 12:1-2). Right here we have, at the very time of Moses, a very clear and precise statement from YEHOVAH God that He wants the year to start with a specific month -- or New Moon! The Hebrew expression translated into English as THIS MONTH is ha-chodesh ha-zeh. The word zeh is a demonstrative pronoun meaning this or this one. The reason I am pointing this out here is because this demonstrative pronoun makes it quite clear that YEHOVAH God is specifically singling something out. It is not just the definite article (as in the month ) that is used here -- but it is a specific reference to THIS very month. Next, the word chodesh means both New Moon and month. The reason being that YEHOVAH God intended every month to start with a New Moon. Therefore, it is perfectly correct to translate Exodus 12:2 in the following two ways: 1) Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you (NKJV). 2) THISNEWMOONshall be your beginning of New Moons (or months); it shall be THE FIRST NEW MOON of the year to you. The key to remember here is that in Biblical Hebrew there is no distinction made between the concepts of New Moons and months, so it is equally correct to say that YEHOVAH God was specifically singling out TWO things in Exodus 12:2: THIS NEW MOON and also THIS MONTH! The Hebrew word chodesh simply does not allow you to divorce the New Moon from the month -- they both go together! A month is only a month because it starts on the New Moon! So when we have a clear statement from YEHOVAH God that this New Moon is to be the first new moon of the year to us, then we obviously have a very clear responsibility to determine exactly when YEHOVAH wants that New Moon to occur! We cannot pass this responsibility off to other people (such as the Jews) by reasoning that it is really up to YEHOVAH to make sure that these other people (i.e. the Jews) pick the right New Moon for us! Why should we trust the Jews any more than we should trust the Catholics -- or any other group that has strayed far from YEHOVAH God? YEHOVAH God listed the weekly Sabbath days right alongside the annual Sabbath days in Leviticus Chapter 23 -- giving us the first clue that the weekly Sabbaths should be determined the same way the annual Sabbaths are. The one group is as important as the other is; and we would not dream of allowing someone else to determine for us which day of the week we should keep as the Sabbath day. Just because the Jews happen to keep Saturday as the Sabbath, while most of professing Christianity keeps Sunday, does not mean that we did not check up on them to determine who -- if any -- are correct. We certainly didn t accept on faith that the Jews have gotten the weekly Sabbath right -- and it s a good thing we didn t be cause the Jews are just as wrong as professing Christianity!"
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 23:01:43
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quote:
Originally posted by berkano
Unfortunately I have a counter for every argument against lunar sabbath that can be devised. ...
... I have already quoted the scriptures that make it very clear that the Weekly sabbaths fall on days contiguous to the phases of the moon. ...
Month and New Moon are interchangeable in word "chodesh" of ancient hebrew because the beginning of each month was determined by the new moon and chodesh meant both, ... The English word month originally meant month and moon. The word, "month" in modern english comes from OE > monath, month, moon > IndoEur > me, to measure, and IndoEur > me, law, measurement, bound.
The ancient European language makes it clear that moon was synonymous with the measure of law and time, because measure, month, and moon come from the same word, "me" {may}. See below for more:
-- Berkano
"... This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you (Exodus 12:1-2). Right here we have, at the very time of Moses, a very clear and precise statement from YEHOVAH God that He wants the year to start with a specific month -- or New Moon! ...
You may have counter arguments but you don't have scripture, only scripture twisted to suit your needs. I say we read "codesh" everywhere it occurs and don't change it into month or new moon and then see from context what it means. This is what I've done in my few years of studying the calendar and I see it as solar. Simply asserting that month = codesh = new moon doesn't get you there.
Word derivations are interesting and informative, but not definitive because we don't know for sure what a word may have been used to mean centuries ago, or maybe said better, we don't know what enemies intent on confusing Christians have done to the language.
If you read case law digests (as I do) on the subject, you will learn that there were/are recognized two types of months: the 30-day christian month, and the lunar month at (IIRC) 28 days. Which one is used depends on the type of contract being enforced. Hint: maritime contract ==> lunar month. This shows that two types of time-keeping have been in use (and at war with each other) for a long time.
In quoting Exodus 12:1-2, are you SURE that codesh means new moon? Can you prove it? It is my understanding (for which I need to find sources) that the ancient Egyptians kept the calendar that today's Ethiopians keep, which is a solar calendar (but they don't use the VE).
And while we're at it, why did Jesus keep a different Passover than the Pharisees?
http://home.earthlink.net/~walterk12/Xian/Cal/ChristKeptPassover.html
Who was wrong?, and why?
To add another facet (if you read the whole linked article), how do we know that "new moon" means the moon between the earth and Sun as it does today? Can we be sure it didn't mean what we call a full moon today?
You didn't address Zecariah 7:1-2 and why certain men were in the house of God on the 4th day of the 9th month, when the doors were opened only on sabbaths? Or did I misinterpret what you first said?
This is an important subject, and needs to be fleshed out. |
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Manuel
Advanced Member
USA
762 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 01:02:44
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Greetings In His name Yahushuah,
In the spanish language which I know of the days are:
Domingo = Sunday = ?
Lunes = Luna = Moon?
Martes = Tuesday = Mars?
Miercoles = Wednesday = Mercury?
Jueves = Thursday = Jupiter?
Viernes = Friday = Venus?
Sabado = Saturday = ?
There are some close resemblences there, but as how and why they corrolate, and the extent, I do not know.
A Dios,
Manuel |
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Manuel
Advanced Member
USA
762 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 09:51:33
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I did a little search and found the following from:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0002065.html
The Names of the Days of the Week
See also Greek and Roman Mythology and Norse Mythology
(Note: It is more understandable right off the website provided)
Latin Old English English German French Italian Spanish
Dies Solis Sunnandaeg Sunday Sonntag dimanche domenica domingo
Dies Lunae Monandaeg Monday Montag lundi lunedì lunes
Dies Martis Tiwesdaeg Tuesday Dienstag mardi martedì martes
Dies Mercurii Wodnesdaeg Wednesday Mittwoch mercredi mercoledì miércoles
Dies Jovis Thunresdaeg Thursday Donnerstag jeudi giovedì jueves
Dies Veneris Frigedaeg Friday Freitag vendredi venerdì viernes
Dies Saturni Saeternesdaeg Saturday Samstag samedi sabato sábado
NOTE: The seven-day week originated in ancient Mesopotamia and became part of the Roman calendar in A.D. 321. The names of the days are based on the seven celestial bodies (the Sun, the Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn), believed at that time to revolve around Earth and influence its events. Most of Western Europe adopted the Roman nomenclature. The Germanic languages substituted Germanic equivalents for the names of four of the Roman gods: Tiw, the god of war, replaced Mars; Woden, the god of wisdom, replaced Mercury; Thor, the god of thunder, replaced Jupiter; and Frigg, the goddess of love, replaced Venus.
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Edited by - Manuel on 30 Apr 2004 10:01:39 |
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Tiza
Regular Member
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 16:55:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Manuel
I did a little search and found the following from:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0002065.html
The Names of the Days of the Week
See also Greek and Roman Mythology and Norse Mythology
(Note: It is more understandable right off the website provided)
Latin Old English English German French Italian Spanish
Dies Solis Sunnandaeg Sunday Sonntag dimanche domenica domingo
Dies Lunae Monandaeg Monday Montag lundi lunedì lunes
Dies Martis Tiwesdaeg Tuesday Dienstag mardi martedì martes
Dies Mercurii Wodnesdaeg Wednesday Mittwoch mercredi mercoledì miércoles
Dies Jovis Thunresdaeg Thursday Donnerstag jeudi giovedì jueves
Dies Veneris Frigedaeg Friday Freitag vendredi venerdì viernes
Dies Saturni Saeternesdaeg Saturday Samstag samedi sabato sábado
NOTE: The seven-day week originated in ancient Mesopotamia and became part of the Roman calendar in A.D. 321. The names of the days are based on the seven celestial bodies (the Sun, the Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn), believed at that time to revolve around Earth and influence its events. Most of Western Europe adopted the Roman nomenclature. The Germanic languages substituted Germanic equivalents for the names of four of the Roman gods: Tiw, the god of war, replaced Mars; Woden, the god of wisdom, replaced Mercury; Thor, the god of thunder, replaced Jupiter; and Frigg, the goddess of love, replaced Venus.
Hello,
Who cares about the names of the days of the week, I surely don't. Also, if you'll study in Genesis, Yahweh blessed and sancitified the SEVENTH day of the creation week, setting it apart for Adam (adam also generic for all of mankind.)
Tiza |
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Tiza
Regular Member
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 17:21:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Walter
quote:
Originally posted by berkano
Unfortunately I have a counter for every argument against lunar sabbath that can be devised. ...
... I have already quoted the scriptures that make it very clear that the Weekly sabbaths fall on days contiguous to the phases of the moon. ...
Month and New Moon are interchangeable in word "chodesh" of ancient hebrew because the beginning of each month was determined by the new moon and chodesh meant both, ... The English word month originally meant month and moon. The word, "month" in modern english comes from OE > monath, month, moon > IndoEur > me, to measure, and IndoEur > me, law, measurement, bound.
The ancient European language makes it clear that moon was synonymous with the measure of law and time, because measure, month, and moon come from the same word, "me" {may}. See below for more:
-- Berkano
"... This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you (Exodus 12:1-2). Right here we have, at the very time of Moses, a very clear and precise statement from YEHOVAH God that He wants the year to start with a specific month -- or New Moon! ...
You may have counter arguments but you don't have scripture, only scripture twisted to suit your needs. I say we read "codesh" everywhere it occurs and don't change it into month or new moon and then see from context what it means. This is what I've done in my few years of studying the calendar and I see it as solar. Simply asserting that month = codesh = new moon doesn't get you there.
Word derivations are interesting and informative, but not definitive because we don't know for sure what a word may have been used to mean centuries ago, or maybe said better, we don't know what enemies intent on confusing Christians have done to the language.
If you read case law digests (as I do) on the subject, you will learn that there were/are recognized two types of months: the 30-day christian month, and the lunar month at (IIRC) 28 days. Which one is used depends on the type of contract being enforced. Hint: maritime contract ==> lunar month. This shows that two types of time-keeping have been in use (and at war with each other) for a long time.
In quoting Exodus 12:1-2, are you SURE that codesh means new moon? Can you prove it? It is my understanding (for which I need to find sources) that the ancient Egyptians kept the calendar that today's Ethiopians keep, which is a solar calendar (but they don't use the VE).
And while we're at it, why did Jesus keep a different Passover than the Pharisees?
http://home.earthlink.net/~walterk12/Xian/Cal/ChristKeptPassover.html
Who was wrong?, and why?
To add another facet (if you read the whole linked article), how do we know that "new moon" means the moon between the earth and Sun as it does today? Can we be sure it didn't mean what we call a full moon today?
You didn't address Zecariah 7:1-2 and why certain men were in the house of God on the 4th day of the 9th month, when the doors were opened only on sabbaths? Or did I misinterpret what you first said?
This is an important subject, and needs to be fleshed out.
Hi, Walter:
Yahushua kept Yahweh's Passover, not the ones that the Pharisees started and kept of their own interpretation. There is some interesting history that you should read about this when you get a chance. It's in a historical book entitled "The Festivals and Sacred Days of Yahweh," which you can download at yahweh.org
You can download by chapters or the whole book. It opens up in Adobe. It goes into the history of the Sadducees and the Pharisees and the two different Passovers that they kept. Little do people know that the Sadducees came from the sons of Zadok line and kept the true Passover. It also goes in depth into Christian history on the Passover. Those early followers of Yahushua the messiah were referred to as quartodecimans, 14th keepers.
Also, about khodesh, it is translated as moon, new moon and month. The Hebrew word yerakh is the name of the moon. There are a couple of good articles to read on this subject, also explains the terms. They are titled "Rules for the New Moon" and "The Beginning of the Year." Here is the link: http://yahweh.org/articles.html
Hope this helps!
Tiza |
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berkano
Advanced Member
uSA
129 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 14:00:50
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quote:
Tiza posted: "Those are just two things and the interpretations of the ones who are teaching a lunar sabbath will not stand because they are far off from teaching any truth."
quote:
Originally posted by Tiza
Hello,
Who cares about the names of the days of the week, I surely don't. Also, if
you'll study in Genesis, Yahweh blessed and sancitified the SEVENTH day of the
creation week, setting it apart for Adam (adam also generic for all of
mankind.)
Tiza
I assume you, Tiza, are a woman, as I have yet to meet a Tiza that is a man. Please correct me if I err this point.
Yahweh hallowed and sanctified the seventh day of the week of creation. But the creation began one day before the seventh, if you will read the Genesis account carefully. The seventh day is the seventh day of the week but the eight day of the sabbath cycle. Look again. God created all things spiritually before he put them on the earth physically. The sabbath is a day of *spiritual* work only,
which is why we are commanded to rest from all *material* labor. Thus Genesis contains two accounts of the creation that seem to contradict each other on some points unless one looks to see the first account was the spiritual, not material, creation, and this spiritual creation occured on the first sabbath day before the seven-day material work week! It was common to refer to a sabbath cycle as an eight-day week in ancient times, meaning from one sabbath to
another.
Yahweh hallowed and sanctified the seventh day of creation. Taking this as proof that the pagan perpetual seven-day week is somehow correct; taking such as a proof is a stretch. Genesis does not specifically say how God told Adam to reckon the sabbaths. But the "books of Moses" most certainly do, time and time again, showing the sabbath days fall regularly in a pattern with the phases of the moon. The sabbath cycle is simple: New Moon, first day of month; work six days; sabbath; work six days; sabbath; two more six-days-work, two more sabbaths, then another New Moon and the cycle begins again. It's right there in the Bible, and this is the sabbath cycle that ancient "Jews" and Jesus and his disciples observed. The Jewish Luni-solar calendar now in use came after. The same lunar calendar used to determine the feasts was used for the sabbaths, as well. The Ancient Syrian Church calendar reflects this to some extent but is no longer observed to my knowledge.
Unfortunately I do not have time to put it all down here or address every question, so I will cut and paste articles and quotes as I find time. It is my hope that those who do have time can dissect what is posted here. To those who wish to attack my character, be careful, for you will find you know not what you attack and what the stakes are for lifting the heel agains one who brings these ideas to the table. Saying that one cannot teach truth (Tiza) because you disagree with his belief that the sabbath must be of lunar reckoning (looney
sabbath) can only prompt me to return the same hair-splitting logic:
"1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
"1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the
transgression."
Of course I am quoting this not to tell anyone to be silent, but rather to show that the bible you claim to believe bites both ways, sister! Please be careful when you insinuate that a man cannot be teaching any truth because he disagrees with you. Not only might you "hurt my feelings," but you might "hurt God's feelings" as well.
I am glad to discuss this topic and debate it. I am glad to pour over the scriptures. If men have got the sabbath wrong, then what have they? Then what claim upon being obedient to the commandments do they really have?
If any wish to accuse me of being a "false preacher" for rattling your
cage, now is the time to do it and get it over with so the discussion can go on. If believing what the bible says about sabbath days to be true is a fault and transgression, then I am the chiefest of all sinners and the first stone should cleanly splatter my own skull to the delight of those who seek something to condemn and vilify with words.
I know what the Holy Spirit tells me and what the words on paper tell me, and both are in agreement. Neither Saturday nor Sunday are the sabbath day. It behooves those who hear that call to find out what this means and how to truly keep the day holy. Only God can show this, and only by obedience are we pleasing to Him.
I take shelter in the Love of my God and His Son who redeemed me so that being merely a man, I can still be accepted to eat at the table of the Father. I hope that others will have love and curiosity enough to get deep into this puzzle of the sabbath to see why so many contradictions and falsehoods are pawned off as truth by men whose cock-sure demeanors belie severe, hidden doubts and fears. I want to serve God fully, without reservation, and without assuming to be true
that which I do not know for sure. For men must serve God in Spirit and Truth, not just according to their best guesses as many would say.
Most of all I want to serve God without fear and without doubt, for this is the state of mind that allows the gift of eternal life to grow.
Peace be with you,
-- Berkano |
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berkano
Advanced Member
uSA
129 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 14:07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Walter
You may have counter arguments but you don't have scripture, only scripture twisted to suit your needs.
I ask then, when you say "scripture twisted to suit your needs," how is it twisted and what needs is such twisting suiting, if in fact the accusation be true?
What does Berkano have to gain by twisting scripture to suit whatever needs you are alluding to? Am I under a delusion to believe that my only need is to know the will of God and do it wholeheartedly regardless of what men might think of me or do to me?
-- Berkano |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 15:10:26
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quote:
Originally posted by berkano
I ask then, when you say "scripture twisted to suit your needs," how is it twisted and what needs is such twisting suiting, if in fact the accusation be true?
What does Berkano have to gain by twisting scripture to suit whatever needs you are alluding to? Am I under a delusion to believe that my only need is to know the will of God and do it wholeheartedly regardless of what men might think of me or do to me?
I gave one example which you did not quote: "Simply asserting that month = codesh = new moon doesn't get you there." You have merely asserted and offer no proof, that is, in the context of the whole Bible. You merely quoted Exodus 12:1-2 and claimed it so.
2) Berkano:
"And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
...
atonement for you; besides the burnt offering with
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
its grain offering for the New Moon, the regular
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Walter: In what you highlighted from Numbers 29, you changed (KJV) month/codesh to "new moon" without justification.
3) Berkano wrote: This first day of the month is a day of doing no customary work. This same offering is to be offered at the beginning of all months, each beginning day being a new moon day:
Walter: The passage, verses 1-5, refers only to the first day of the seventh month as being a day of holy convocation and of doing no servile work. This does not extend to every month as you did to then conclude that the sabbath cycle restarts every month. If you still believe this, you need to justify it.
4) You quote Numbers 28:11-14 about the monthly sacrifice and claim
"Clearly the new moon marks the first day of each month, and clearly each new moon day is an offering day of worship, or the first sabbath day of the month."
But the passage says nothing about a sabbath, holy convocation, or doing no servile work. Yet two verses prior are the instructions for the sabbath offering, which is clearly distinuguished from the monthly offering, and also the daily offerings in verses 2 through 8:
2* Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, My offering, and my bread for my sacrifices made by fire, for a sweet savour unto me, shall ye observe to offer unto me in their due season.
3* And thou shalt say unto them, This is the offering made by fire which ye shall offer unto the LORD; two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering.
4* The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at even;
5* And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil.
6* It is a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD.
7* And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.
8* And the other lamb shalt thou offer at even: as the meat offering of the morning, and as the drink offering thereof, thou shalt offer it, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
If every day that an offering was made is a sabbath, then every day would be a sabbath.
Your logic doesn't hold up.
5) I'm glad you want to wholeheartedly know the will of God, and that you believe the words in the Bible. So please answer me this on my third request: How is it that men are worshiping in the temple on the 4th day of the 9th month, when the doors were opened only on sabbaths? (Zec 7:1-2) This Bible fact appears to run counter to your posted understanding of the sabbaths. Please explain to me why this doesn't show your view false. I think it proves that 9/4 is a sabbath and I'm interested in seeing a possible refutation.
6) What was the phase of the moon when Jesus was crucified? How can we tell? you might ask. Look at Amos 8:
6 That we may buy the poor for silver, and the needy for a pair of shoes; yea, and sell the refuse of the wheat?
7* The LORD hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works.
8* Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
9* And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10* And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
Is not this speaking of the day when Jesus was crucified?
I'm really curious to read what you have to say for the last two items. |
Edited by - Walter on 03 May 2004 15:13:20 |
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berkano
Advanced Member
uSA
129 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 19:34:34
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Yahweh is salvation!
I found many articles that discuss the concept of a scriptural lunar sabbath. Most of them are fluff and their arguments either for or against it are not scriptural.
Below is a link to one article that examines many questions using the scriptures as a guide, rather than accepted dogma as the guide. Thankfully others have already looked into this issue and reported on it. This saves me from years upon years of study and prayer that I previously thought I might have to do to get answers. Now it just might only take many "moons" to sort it all out.
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/pdf/lunproof.pdf
-- Berkano |
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Lunar Sabbath
