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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 29 Jun 2004 :  21:22:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Bezaleel,
you must be of the 42nd generation! Some folks have never reached the twelveth chapter of Daniel! As you and I, and many here, have no doubts as to who is King. But, there are those who doubt. They even serve the false {read LEGAL FICTIONS} idol's of their own thinking.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 29 Jun 2004 :  22:05:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Bezaleel (Wyatt?),
Use FICTION FRN, go to CONSUMER CORP OUTLET, BUY CONSUMER PRODUCT, pay TAX = wilfull support of 4th Kingdom = not yet reached 12th chapter of Daniel. Beware RENTERS in denial with "self-proclaimed unadultrated walk" who follow the above sequence.

"...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone He wishes."
Daniel 4:25c
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 29 Jun 2004 :  22:41:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Many may assert that we do have free will, however, YHWH's omniscience simply makes this concept impossible when the subject is taken down to it's root (Isa. 46:10). That people will act only as YHWH determines is spelled out in the both the NT & OT.

Especially by, but not limited to, Paul:

If people are evil it is because YHWH has decreed to make them evil (Rom 1:24-28, Isaiah 45:7) and caused them to disobey him (Rom 11:32, Isaiah 45:7). If they do not understand YHWH's message it is because He has blocked their understanding (Rom 11:8) and caused them to be stubborn (Rom 9:18). YHWH prevents the Plan from being preached in certain regions (Act 16:6-7) and He decides well before it will happen when someone will be born and when he or she will die (Act 17:26, Isa. 46:10). Those who were going to be saved were chosen by YHWH before the beginning of time (2 Tim 1:9, Eph 1:11, Isa. 46:10). If someone has faith and is thereby saved, their faith comes from YHWH, not from any works on their part (Eph 2:9-10). However, one may also present the question: "If one can only do what YHWH predetermines them to do, how can He hold them responsible for their actions?" Still another question remains to be added, "If this is so, how can YHWH find fault with anyone? For who can go against His decree?"

First ask yourself this question: Who am I to answer YHWH back? Paul deals with this point blank: A clay pot does not ask the man who made it: "Why did you make me so?" After all, the One who makes the pot has the right to use the clay as he wishes, and to make two pots from one lump of clay, one for special occasions and one for ordinary use. And the same is true of what YHWH has done (Rom 9:19-22, Isa. 46:10).

(our, me, we, I = ego = individual identity)

I read an essay recently, which claims to prove that "the earliest experiential awareness of a sensory stimulus occurs about 0.5 sec. after the stimulus itself." This supposedly proves that none of our experiences of perception occur in real time and are in fact delayed about 1/2 second after the actual event. Based on this research, it is impossible to respond volitionally in less than 1/2 sec. to any external stimulus since our experience is delayed by that much. In
other words, everything has to happen before we (ego) can become aware of it...we (ego) can't avoid anything..."we (ego)inescapably live in the objective past so that the objective present and future are completely beyond "our" (ego's) control (Isaiah 45:7).

Google: Benjamin Libet... or for an indepth look at this Truth: http://nofreewill.blogspot.com/. This, "i" believe, is the essence of Paul's teachings above. BTW, the SumAryans understood this hundreds of years before Paul.

Agree or disagree,,,,,,,, either way..... it's all YHWH's will....... and......... "Thy will not, "my" will.... be done!

Shalom and Layla Tov!
Steve


"...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone He wishes."
Daniel 4:25c

Edited by - BatKol on 29 Jun 2004 22:53:57
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Inactive Member
Regular Member

USA
33 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2004 :  04:03:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
free will. For sure, the one thing we are here for, and our highest reason to be, is to learn love. Without free will, love ceases to exist. Our elder brother became an example for us in showing the greatest love in laying down his life for us. Remember that no man took his life, but he laid it down of his own. Now this doesnt negate that yahweh is sovereign, the lord of hosts is his name. Surely the father has granted all authority unto his firstborn, for they are one. What is the longsuffering and patience of the lord? If my people called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and turn from their wicked ways, then will i hear from heaven and will heal their land. i see a choice. in love, beza
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2004 :  06:23:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings Beza,
You said: Without free will, love ceases to exist.

Steve: I kindly disagree. One example that is contrary to your statement: the Love that arises "in me" for my family has absolutely nothing to do with free will..... it has everything to do with how these 'clay pots' are 'wired' according to the design of the Master Creator: YHWH.

Glad to have you aboard!

Peace,
Steve


"...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone He wishes."
Daniel 4:25c
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2004 :  20:15:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings,
ah free will.
Most all member' of A.A. will frankly say that they did not "have a choice" in the matter of drinking to excess...until they made a quality decision, of their own volition, to quit drinking. Then, and only then, they start to receive the power {whatever} to choose to not drink. God the puppet master is not to be found.
Does He work all things after His Own council? Yes.
He also ask's through His prophet's...who is this who dare's approach Me? Maybe, just maybe, a son coming into maturity?
Agreed, the NATURAL man does not have a choice. He is a slave to his flesh nature. He know's not freedom, nor "where the Spirit of Yahuweh is there is Liberty".
Those not ordained from the Beginnings as firstfruits, well to them...merrily, merrily, life is just a dream. Adam was put to sleep while "Eve" was taken from him. Seem's most all Adamite's have not awakened from the great sleep.
Yahushuah even stated to Peter..."sleep on, arise let us go hence". Peter woke up at his pentacost experience. He then could choose whether to serve The Most High, or caesar.
"Arise, shine forth"...Paul ask's, "arise from the dead".
BTW, a clay pot is a LEGAL FICTION. Fictile is the root word for fiction... fictile: made of earth {Adam} or clay by a potter.
The first Adam had no choice...he was naked, {Black's law...naked...incomplete}.
The First "second Adam" made the right choice, on His final night, in prayer. "Not my will, but Thy Will be done".
Volume's of book's have been written on the matter of free will over the centuries. This matter will not be resolved here, but the question might be answered by one reading word's here.
"Who am I going to serve"?
Side bar; homosexual's love "no free will". HE made me this way, and so that's that with that.
Excluding anamolies such as Saul's Damacus road conversion, He patiently wait's, send's visitor's, quietly whisper's, "choose Life".





Oxford's English Dictionary
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2004 :  23:22:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings,
Ultimately, all that exists, exists as prescribed by YHWH for His express purpose. Be they for good or evil. YHWH says He creates the good and the evil, says the He creates the evil man for his day. He says He declares the end from the beginning. There is no battle between "God and the devil". YHWH is absolute and His will be done no matter what 'we' believe or don't believe. YHWH's will be done regardless of which ever 'ego' refuses to acknowledge that 'it' is really a FICTION and has no independant will. Of course the ego does not want to accept this. It would be the death of 'it'. It would mean the end of the illusion of free will which is the last thing the carnal mind (ego) wants. Paul really does a good job explaining the paradox, but to 'appreciate' it one must take the concept down to the root. No mother, no father, no male , no female. No slave, no free. Thats right. No free either. Beyond slave or free. This 'state' cannot be earned but only given to a mind/body organism by Grace from YHWH if it is His will (so much for 'our' will). Paul really does spell this out quite nicely. I believe this very 'concept' is what Paul was speaking about when he said that this mystery was never revealed in times past except to him. Indeed, he was the first one to take the ancient Brahmin teachings and fuse it with the Tanakh's Moshiach.

Agreed, this topic cannot be properly resolved here. It can only be resolved by self-inquiry and the Grace of YHWH.

As for agreeing or not agreeing... It's YHWH's will either way, any way, and always.





"...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone He wishes."
Daniel 4:25c
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Inactive Member
Regular Member

USA
33 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2004 :  02:31:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. James . or take an example in Matthew , "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" ... created in the image of God... would he therefore have no free will either? to him who overcomes will I grant to sit on my throne... will there be free-will in heaven also? of course , remember how angels kept not there first estate. The father rules by spirit, not by strings. As good as it gets... go to 2nd peter and read the words of this beloved brother as he speaks through the holy spirit about the keys to the kingdom, how to partake in the divine nature through promises, and how to have a entrance to the everlasting kingdom supplied to you. could there be chastening without free-will? if so, for what purpose? if you endure chastening, he dealeth will you as sons... last one- hebrews 12 ...see that you do not refuse Him who speaks... in love beza
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2004 :  08:02:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beza quoted: Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed

Steve quotes: Proverbs 16:4 YHWH hath made every thing for His own purpose, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
He does not tempt, He creates. He makes one for Honor and one for dishonor. And Honor/dishonor is not gauged by our own, personal measure.

Beza quotes: or take an example in Matthew , "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" ...

Steve quotes: The larger perspective strait from YHWH: Remember the former things of old: for I am Elohim, and there is none else; I am Elohim, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Isaiah 46:9-10

Beza: created in the image of God... would he therefore have no free will either?

Steve: Key word being 'image'. When I put a real object in the sun it cast an image (shadow). Does the image have free will or it it just mirroring/shadowing what is happening in the real? YHWH is the Real, all else is FICTION.... The same with these vapors called you, me, we. It is only by the Grace of YHWH that one is choosen for honor. It is also YHWH's will if a vessel is created for dishonor.

Beza: to him who overcomes will I grant to sit on my throne...

Steve: Overcomes what? Identification with the mind/body FICTION which cannot please YHWH.

Beza: will there be free-will in heaven also? of course , remember how angels kept not there first estate.

Steve: Define heaven. Are you using this in context of a place that 'good people go when they die' that is seperate from the current realm that you and I are speaking in now?

Beza: The father rules by spirit, not by strings.

Steve: Funny how both you and Robert-James consider the absolute Sovereignty of YHWH 'strings'. You/we have absolutely no power except that which was given by
YHWH.

Beza: could there be chastening without free-will? if so, for what purpose?

Steve: Yes there can be. The purpose is YHWH's Will be done, even if it contrary to 'our' will. There is only One which is Real; YHWH.. YHWH is a Spirit. When, by the Grace of YHWH, one sees the FICTION which is mind(soul)/body .... all that is left is Spirit.

Love back at 'ya.

"...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone He wishes."
Daniel 4:25c
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Manuel
Advanced Member

USA
762 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2004 :  11:21:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Prince and the Pauper Mark Twain
Introduction.

Hugh Latimer, Bishop of Worcester, to Lord Cromwell, on the birth of the Prince of Wales (afterward Edward VI.).

From the National Manuscripts preserved by the British Government.

Ryght honorable, Salutem in Christo Jesu, and Syr here ys no lesse joynge and rejossynge in thes partees for the byrth of our prynce, hoom we hungurde for so longe, then ther was (I trow), inter vicinos att the byrth of S. J. Baptyste, as thys berer, Master Erance, can telle you. Gode gyffe us alle grace, to yelde dew thankes to our Lorde Gode, Gode of Inglonde, for verely He hathe shoyd Hym selff Gode of Inglonde, or rather an Inglyssh Gode, yf we consydyr and pondyr welle alle Hys procedynges with us from tyme to tyme. He hath over cumme alle our yllnesse with Hys excedynge goodnesse, so that we are now moor then compellyd to serve Hym, seke Hys glory, promott Hys wurde, yf the Devylle of alle Devylles be natt in us. We have now the stooppe of vayne trustes ande the stey of vayne expectations; lett us alle pray for hys preservatione. Ande I for my partt wylle wyssh that hys Grace allways have, and evyn now from the begynynge, Governares, Instructores and offyceres of ryght jugmente, ne optimum ingenium non optima educatione deprevetur.

Butt whatt a grett fowlle am I! So, whatt devotione shoyth many tymys butt lytelle dyscretione! Ande thus the Gode of Inglonde be ever with you in alle your procedynges.

The 19 of October.

Youres, H. L. B. of Wurcestere, now att Hartlebury.

Yf you wolde excytt thys berere to be moore hartye ayen the abuse of ymagry or mor forwarde to promotte the veryte, ytt myght doo goode. Natt that ytt came of me, butt of your selffe, etc.

(Addressed) To the Ryght Honorable Loorde P. Sealle hys synguler gode Lorde.

To those good-mannered and agreeable children Susie and Clara Clemens this book is affectionately inscribed by their father.

I will set down a tale as it was told to me by one who had it of his father, which latter had it of HIS father, this last having in like manner had it of HIS father--and so on, back and still back, three hundred years and more, the fathers transmitting it to the sons and so preserving it. It may be history, it may be only a legend, a tradition. It may have happened, it may not have happened: but it COULD have happened. It may be that the wise and the learned believed it in the old days; it may be that only the unlearned and the simple loved it and credited it. aaa

'The quality of mercy . . . is twice bless'd; It blesseth him that gives, and him that takes; 'Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes The thron-ed monarch better than his crown'. Merchant of Venice.

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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2004 :  14:05:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The paradox of free will:

"We cannot help breathing, and yet it seems that breath is under our control; we both breathe and are breathed".

Alan Watts


"...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone He wishes."
Daniel 4:25c
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Manuel
Advanced Member

USA
762 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2004 :  17:03:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Murder as well as suicide is a sin

Edited by - Manuel on 02 Jul 2004 17:04:42
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2004 :  19:54:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let's see; was not Allen Watts a sexual pervert-eastern RELIGION based man who had the gall to write a book called "The Word", as if it came from him? Selah.
Steve, " the larger perspective strait from YHWH". As if the word's in scripture {old testament} trump Yahushuah's word's? I conclude that the 'red letter's' of new testament writings, i.e. Yahushuah's spoken word's are the word's of his Father. I can't play one upmanship at that level.
To think otherwise makes Yahushuah a liar, for he stated that his word's were and are the word's of YHWH, His Father.
The Revelation of Truth in Spirit are progressive. Progressive in our understanding.
Stated fact; YHWH visited His vinyard in 30 a.d. in the form of a man, Yahushuah. The people wanted caesar to be king.
I absolutely marvel at the mercy and patience of The Most High.
For the last two 'day's' He has been collecting His own, one by one, one of a family, two of a city. Just like Yeremiah said he would. The 42nd generation.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2004 :  20:14:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Robert-James said: Let's see; was not Allen Watts a sexual pervert-eastern RELIGION based man who had the gall to write a book called "The Word", as if it came from him?

Steve: Bring forth the evidence that this man was a sexual pervert.
You operate quite a bit on 'conspiracy hearsay' so I take abolutely nothing you say at face value. You also were big on saying that black folk have not the breath of life. Remember that (you'll probably avoid this one in public)? Will you stand by that just as you stand by your claims about Allan Watts? Perhaps you read this info the same place you read about Watts.

I'll be anxiously waiting to see your 'proof'. If you don't bring it forth,well, then that says it all.

Robert-James: YHWH visited His vinyard in 30 a.d. in the form of a man, Yahushuah.

Steve: LOL!!! You really are Katti after all!!!!

1 Timothy 6:16 (Speaking of YHWH, the King of Kings) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no mancan approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.

That verse is about YHWH....Yahushua (lower case 'he' in verse 15) will show YHWH as King of Kings. "Old Neb" got shown who was the King of Kings the hard way...YHWH, whom no manhath seen, nor can see.... Obviously this cannot be speaking of Yahushua since he was seen and could be seen. LOL.

We should do this more often! Let's see what proof Robert-James brings forth on his claims both recent and past. Will he 'post and run' or deal with these issues strait on?



"...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone He wishes."
Daniel 4:25c

Edited by - BatKol on 02 Jul 2004 20:39:48
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Inactive Member
Regular Member

USA
33 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2004 :  20:42:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Whoever has no rule over his own spirit is like a city broken down, without walls. Solomon
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Inactive Member
Regular Member

USA
33 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2004 :  20:55:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: (yes!please!lol) Fear God and keep his commandments, For this is man's all. For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil. ecc.12-14 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave ...YHWH willing of course. in love , beza.
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2004 :  21:00:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Point blank sir: Allan Watts published "Screw" magazine. A filthy talmudic publication. Ball is in your court. I rebutted your presumption...that my statements on Watts were untrue.
As for Negro's being Adamic? Suppose ye that Noah had three son's, all of a different race? Your logic 101 is not college level.
Was YHWH or David king in the year 1020 b.c.? Scripture states that David was king, annointed and all, by YHWH's request. Think YHWH was offended by His own actions???
We are to be a nation of kings and priests. Does your God get offended by this?
We really should not take offense and attack each other.
Your attempt to honor the King, well He is somewhat bigger than that!
Katti? Another yiddish word? No, I am Robert, not katti.
Go read some "Screw" magazine's, and report back.
But don't spend too much time with the Yiddish press, they are here to corrupt. Ok?
Yahushuah many times stated that his Father was greater than him. Yet, he told Phillip to look him in the face. Some swords are sharper than butter knives!
Touche.
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2004 :  21:07:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
p.s.
Allan Goldstein published 'Screw' magazine. Check and see if he didn't include Allan Watts in his articles.
Allan Watts was a buddahist, or however it is spelled.
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2004 :  21:20:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
steven,
we can conclude these posts with termination. Watts practiced tantric yoga, which includes sexual perversions. But who cares.
Bezaleel spoke Truth. YHWH dosen't need you to defend his honor, He is the Great King, and needs physical bodies to show Himself. If that is offensive to you, or to the Yiddish, so be it.
The book of Thomas: when two become One, and that was the prayer request of Yahushuah, the man, the son of man. For He was One with the Father, which does not lessen YHWH, but increases His Family.
Yahushuah, the Firstborn among many brethern. The son occupies the Right hand side.
Your attempts to honor YHWH as King are well noted, but 1974 years behind time.
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Inactive Member
Regular Member

USA
33 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2004 :  22:01:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
no free will? what the hell is a snooze button for then? thats it, im taking my alarm clock back, ive been had. lmao.
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