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True North
Advanced Member

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2004 :  21:45:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"The image of the yoke ... occurs in the political sphere for domestic tyranny ... the relation of Esau to Jacob ... and for the rule of alien nation ... esp. the great empires ... of Egypt, ... Assyria, ... Babylon, ... Syria .. Liberation from this kind of dominion is the corresponding content of the message of deliverance. Thus the yoke is taken away from Israel ..."

The gospel of the Kingdom ... And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage ... into the perfect law of liberty ...

The word is ... yatsa ... Stephen, aleph, tsade, yod

And oneisraelite ... I thought vomit was very appropriate at the time, it gave me a chuckle

TN
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2004 :  21:52:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"...does Yahuwah have trouble with His People making statues [figurines] or statutes [public policy], i.e. “graven images”? Yes, but it is not the graven images themselves that are the problem; they can do neither evil nor good. It is what men do with these images; they subjugate other men with them, lord it over them, and use them to omit Yahuwah from the equation altogether, thus making themselves, or hoping to make themselves, judge, lawgiver, king [ruler] and savior," [end quote] i.e they wish to be 'Elohiym, with a capital "E", and they use their "graven images", their IMAGINARY GODS, to accomplish this.

Proof of this can be found in the Treaty of Varona, signed 22nd November, 1822 A.D.

ARTICLE 3. Convinced that the principles of religion contribute most powerfully to keep nations in the state of passive obedience which they owe to their princes, the high contracting parties declare it to be their intention to sustain in their respective states, those measures which the clergy may adopt with the aim of ameliorating their own interests, so intimately connected with the preservation of the authority of the princes; and the contracting powers join in offering their thanks to the Pope for what he has already done for them, and solicit his constant co-operation in their views of submitting the nations."


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2004 :  05:16:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
brother Robert said: "...does Yahuwah have trouble with His People making statues [figurines] or statutes [public policy], i.e. “graven images”? Yes, but it is not the graven images themselves that are the problem; they can do neither evil nor good. It is what men do with these images; they subjugate other men with them, lord it over them, and use them to omit Yahuwah from the equation altogether, thus making themselves, or hoping to make themselves, judge, lawgiver, king [ruler] and savior," [end quote] i.e they wish to be 'Elohiym, with a capital "E", and they use their "graven images", their IMAGINARY GODS, to accomplish this.

Steve: The tangible, graven idol represented the imaginary god. The idol was a tangible statue and the god was an imaginary diety. The two go hand in hand with the first and second commandment. What you are not digesting is that the Israelites who wanted the figurines of the imaginary gods were not using them to make themselves the capital "E" Elohim , but rather saying that these imaginary gods and the graven images together represented the ultimate creator of all. By the Israelites going after the imaginary gods worshiped by the heathen, they put these fake gods as the real capital "E" Elohim.... instead of YHWH. This is why YHWH repeatedly says He is the only Elohim. Thus the reason for the first and second commandment. Ba-lpeor was not some government man, but rather a mythical, imaginary god of the heathen who's worshipers engaged in rituals. Ast-roth was not some living female ruler but rather an imaginary goddess. The worshipers would sacrifice animals to these imaginary gods. The worshipers would create images of these imaginary gods. The worshipers would eat the meat sacrificed to these imaginary gods. The Israelites joined in with this non-sense.

Numbers 25
1 And Israel abode in Shetim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
3 And Israel joined himself unto B-alpeor: and the anger of YHWH was kindled against Israel.
4 And YHWH said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.

B-al-peor: Master of the generative organ; a Moabitish idol in whose worship females prostituted themselves. Ba-l-peor is a god who appears both as a male sun-god and a female moon-goddess.

The act with the women of Moab does not describe submiting to a foreign government but rather a pagan ritual complete with sex and animal sacrifice. As one can see this Ba-l-peor was not some governmental ruler but rather an imaginary heathen god. Aside from the fact that the Israelites joined in sexual rites, sacrificing animals to these imaginary gods, they also ate the meat sacrificed to these god-idols as well as actually bowed down to them. They treated the imaginary gods of the heathens as if they were the ones who created the universe and everything in it. A clear breach of the first and second commandment.

Ba-l Peor is an 'elohim acharim' , i.e. a 'god of others' so the actions of the Israelites who were seduced by the heathen women caused them to be guilty of the first and second commandment but also other Mitzvot as well. Two such broken mitzvot were.

Exodus 23:13 - the names of 'elohim acharim' you shall not mention nor be heard from your mouth.

Deut 11:16 - Beware for yourselves so your heart is not seduced, turning you away and serving 'elohim acharim' and prostrating yourself to them.

The punishment the guilty Israelites received is in accordence with the Mitzvah in

Deut 8:19 - If you forget YHWH is your Elohim and go after the 'elohim acharim', and worship them, and prostrate yourself to them, I testify against you today that you sall surely perish.

This act is spoken of elsewhere in scripture:

"Your eyes have seen what YHWH has done in the case of Ba-l-peor, for all the men who followed B-al-peor, YHWH your Elohim has destroyed them from among you." - Deuteronomy 4:3

"They joined themselves also to B-al-peor, And ate sacrifices offered to the dead." - Psalm 106:27-29

"I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your forefathers as the earliest fruit on the fig tree in its first season. But they came to Ba-l-peor and devoted themselves to shame, and they became as detestable as that which they loved." - Hosea 9:10

This sinful act was even remembered in the NT:

Revelation 2:14 - Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality.

Your trying to turn these lower case imaginary gods such as Ba-l-peor and Ash-roth into living, ruling men of the Ps 82 type goes against the context and the very accounts of the biblical events. When you apply your formula to the incident of the golden calf god in Exodus, Solomon's worship of imaginary gods in YHWH's Temple, Jeroboam's two golden calf gods, Rachel hiding Laban's gods, the incident with Ba-l-peor, the concept of making these heathen dieties real men does not add up. History shows that these imaginary heathen gods were worshiped in the very groves the Israelites were commanded to destroy.

Peace,
Steve

p.s. True North, we are all getting a serious chuckle over here over the idea that these imaginary heathen gods such as Ash-eroth and Ba-l-peor were real, living rulers. It blows us away how far one will go to support a pet doctrine.

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)

Edited by - BatKol on 14 May 2004 05:41:03
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2004 :  06:27:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings once more brothers and sisters of this Ecclesia, in the name of Our Highest Magistrate [Master]:

Happy Sevening Day Remembrance, everyone. [This is our Sabbath ]

We quote, with some small additions for clarity, once more from one of our previous posts:

“…our only bone of contention on this topic, it would seem, is that you appear to think that the 'elohiym, which are men, are not even important enough to be dealt with in the Ten Commandments of Yahuwah, and that Yahuwah is only concerned about "figurines", i.e. IMAGINARY ‘ELOHIYM. Is this a correct assumption on our part? Or, are the First and Second Commandments dealing with both types of 'elohiym, men who would be ‘Elohiym, i.e. before or above Yahuwah, you know, like Nimrod, Ba'al [Lord] of Babylon [First Commandment], and "graven images", i.e. IMAGINARY ‘ELOHIYM [Second Commandment], which lead men astray from the perfect Law of libertie and He who would give them Liberty?”

We gather from your posts that our above assumption is correct. Thank you.

However, since we do not wish to put words in your mouth, or once again, "fail to digest", we feel we must ask the following question:

What you are teaching then, Steven, is the notion that Yahuwah is only jealous [zealous] of IMAGINARY 'ELOHIYM, like statues [figurines] and flags, which one must Pledge Allegiance to in order to be a citizen of the STATE? Thank you once more.

Webster’s New World Dictionary of American English-Third College Edition
jealous adj. [[…see ZEAL]] 3 [Now Rare] requiring exclusive loyalty [the Lord is a jealous God]
[Emphasis added]


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 14 May 2004 09:27:58
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2004 :  09:42:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Shabbat Shalom to you brother Robert, sis Kathleen and 'lil brother Kevin!

Firstly I am not teaching anything but rather posting scriptures, context and historic info on imaginary pagan gods.

brother Robert: What you are teaching then, Steven, is the notion that Yahuwah is only jealous [zealous] of IMAGINARY 'ELOHIYM, like statues [figurines] and flags, which one must Pledge Allegiance to in order to be a citizen of the STATE? Thank you once more.

Webster’s New World Dictionary of American English-Third College Edition jealous adj. [[…see ZEAL]] 3 [Now Rare] requiring exclusive loyalty [the Lord is a jealous God] [Emphasis added]

Steve: Let's dial in here. The imaginary god, such as Ba-l or Ash-teroth, is what the first commandment is about. These are not physical men like the real, living elohim rulers in Ps 82. The idol is the physical statue made to represent the imaginary god. This is the second commandment. The two commandments cover the imaginary gods that Israel wanders after (1st) and the tangible, physical statues made to represent these imaginary gods in worship(2nd). Both in the same paragraph, giving detail to the complete point.

What I am seeing by your posts is that you are putting both the imaginary god (B-al, Ash-roth) and the physical statue used to represent the god all into the second command while rendering the first commandment as physical men-gods who worship both. This would have made both the Israelites and the Moabite women who worshiped B-al-peor 'gods' as the word pertains to the first commandment. It does not compute. YHWH is jealous over both the imaginary gods (Ba-l, As-eroth, etc) as wellas the system of worship used to exhault these imaginary gods i.e. tangible statues as well as strange rites such as eating the meat sacrificed to these gods, sexual practice, etc.

What I am saying is that the lower case 'god' as the word pertains to Ps 82 does not contextually match up with this idea. The lower case god which is the imaginary Ba-l does. The second commandment, contained as a complete thought with the first commandment in the same paragraph, gives further detail. Both point to these imaginary gods and their idol statues. These imaginary Ba-ls are consistantly called gods and their tangible idols are often mentioned right along with them giving context to the link between the statues and the gods.

YHWH is jealous over the Israelites consistantly wanting to worship these strange, imaginary gods and their tangible statues. The Covenant Israel agreed to strictly prohibits this. The Covenant Israel agreed to also allows for bondage and subjection by foreign rulers when the Covenant is breached. Follow the trail in Torah and even into Joshua and Judges and you see that these were not Ps 82 type gods but rather Ex 32 type imaginary gods and their tangible statues. It is the name of these imaginary gods which we are commanded not to even say, not the names of Ceaser, Nebucadnezzer, etc.

Peace to you all,
Steve




"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2004 :  10:44:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Steven, we thank you for your time and your opinion that Yahuwah made absolutely no Commandment concerning the living 'elohiym, "the Psalm 82 type", but rather only the "dummy" type, i.e. graven images, or "figurines", as you have called them. But let us state for the record, here and now, that we cannot, "logically", agree with you, though that should not matter as you will have millions for company in this belief, for this is exactly what the STATE APPROVED "churches" teach. Your "Concept Does Not Hold Up", in our humble opinion, for why would One concern Himself with lifeless, inanimate objects that can do neither evil nor good and completely ignore the ones who can, and do, do evil continually? Have a nice day and please be sure to say "Hi" to Sunny and the Children for us all.

P.S. Let us save wear and tear on your fingers and say this for you:
"Of course you "cannot, 'logically' agree"; it goes against YOUR doctrine."

Once again, for the record, as you no doubt KNOW, we fully believe, in our heart of hearts, that it is against His Doctrine to pledge allegiance to any other 'elohiym, be it a man, a government, a "dummy" or a flag.

Footnote:
Wester's 1828 Dictionary of American English
DUMB, a. Dum. 1. Mute; silent; not speaking. 2. Destitute of the power of speech...


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 15 May 2004 06:39:43
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2004 :  07:55:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings brother Robert and family,
Thanks for sharing your outlook. It is clear we differ in both our views and that is perfectly fine. We disagree on many key items which will make a meeting of the minds impossible. One being that I move forward with the understanding that YHWH chooses and appoints all Governments (no matter if they are good or evil). Two being that we are in exile until the 4th Kingdom is destroyed and the reuniting of the two houses occurs. Three being that the reason for the current exile is for breaking the first and second commandments as I outlined many times in this thread.
Deut 28 and Lev 26 outlines the punishment perfectly. Our current situation matches up with these punishments so I can only conclude that the rest of the prophecies will be fulfilled as accurately.

You said: Once again, for the record, as you no doubt KNOW, we fully believe, in our heart of hearts, that it is against His Doctrine to pledge allegiance to any other 'elohiym, be it a man, a government, a "dummy" or a flag.

Steve: Again the original hebrew does not have the word 'above' in the first command but rather an absolute 'no' concerning any 'elohim acharim' at all. Contextually this is speaking about the imaginary gods and their figurines like Hath-r the Egyptian calf-goddess, Ba-l and Ash-roth. We have documented, historical proof of these gods as well as their methods of worship. They match exactly with the claims made in the bible. This first command cannot be speaking about Ps 82 type gods seeing as Torah provides for these types of leaders. The Torah also provides for exile and bondage for getting involved with the worship of these heathen gods. There is just too much archeological evidence and direct contextual references in scripture concerning these heathen gods to ignore.

For what it's worth, most STATE APPROVED churches teach that Jesus is the Moshiach and that he died an attoning death for sins. Are you going to reject this doctrine just because it is one of the main foundations of the 501(c)(3) CHURCHES?

Peace,
Steve

p.s - I am going to personally continue this study. You would be just the man to ask this. Can you find me a place in scripture where the word 'elohim' is being used directly for a non-Israelite ruler? From my studies thus far I have only found that when the word 'elohim' is used for a man, that it's use is directly linked to Israelite rulers.
I am looking for something as clear as Ps 82 when elohim is used directly for the 'council of the mighty'. Thanks.


"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)

Edited by - BatKol on 15 May 2004 08:26:32
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2004 :  18:18:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings all,
I just wanted to answer this one line that has been rolling around my brain all day. It's a valid question from brother Robert:

in our humble opinion, for why would One concern Himself with lifeless, inanimate objects that can do neither evil nor good and completely ignore the ones who can, and do, do evil continually?

Steve: YHWH does not completely ignore the ones who do evil. Scripture says YHWH even made the evil man for his day. As for the answer as to why YHWH would concern Himself with lifeless, inanimate objects that can neither do evil nor good, YHWH's own words say it best:

Jeremiah
2:25 Withhold thy foot from being unshod, and thy throat from thirst: but thou saidst, There is no hope: no; for I have loved strangers, and after them will I go. 26 As the thief is ashamed when he is found, so is the house of Israel ashamed; they, their kings, their princes, and their priests, and their prophets, 27 Saying to a stock, Thou [art] my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned [their] back unto me, and not [their] face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. 28 But where [are] thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for [according to] the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah. 29 Wherefore will ye plead with me? ye all have transgressed against me, saith YHWH.

As one can see from this verse the whole cast of Israel's rulers and prophets are guilty of saying that it was these imaginary gods, not YHWH, who created them. This is a clear breach of the first commandment and the gods they worshiped were not living Ps 82 type "elohim".

When does a 'governmental ruler' become a breach of the first commandment for somebody? When that somebody believes that ruler to be the one who created the universe and all that it is in it. For an Israelite to put this honor to anyone other than YHWH is a breach
of the first commandment.

Peace,
Steve



"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)

Edited by - BatKol on 15 May 2004 18:24:26
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2004 :  00:31:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, brothers and sisters:

Steven: “One being that I move forward with the understanding that YHWH chooses and appoints all Governments (no matter if they are good or evil).” [Emphasis added]

Reply: Is this truly “forward” or directly “against” what Yahuwah, Himself, says:

Psalm 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against Yahuwah, and against his anointed...[Quoted at Acts 4:26]

Hosea 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew [to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess] it not...

Does Yahuwah ALLOW us to create these tyrannical governments of men? Yes! Why? Because "People Get the Government they Deserve", He uses them as the rod of correction, weilded by men, to drive His People back to Him.

If we are “backward” for believing Him, so be it.

You claim to have wasted a day thinking on this:
“in our humble opinion, for why would One concern Himself with lifeless, inanimate objects that can do neither evil nor good and completely ignore the ones who can, and do, do evil continually?”

We say you "wasted your time" only because you dealt with this in general terms rather than in the context in which it was asked, which of course was in reference to the Ten Commandments; the First and Second Commandments in particular. This was and is the question in its entirety:
“…our only bone of contention on this topic, it would seem, is that you appear to think that the 'elohiym, which are men, you know, the Psalm 82 type, are not even important enough to be dealt with in the Ten Commandments of Yahuwah, and that Yahuwah is only concerned about "figurines", i.e. IMAGINARY ‘ELOHIYM,
in His Ten Commandments. Is this a correct assumption on our part?

Or, are the First and Second Commandments dealing with both types of 'elohiym, men who would be ‘Elohiym, i.e. before or above Yahuwah, you know, like Nimrod, Ba'al [Lord] of Babylon [First Commandment], and "graven images", i.e. IMAGINARY ‘ELOHIYM or "figurines" [Second Commandment], which lead men astray from the perfect Law of libertie and He who would give them Liberty?”

THIS is the question, as succinctly as we know how to put it.

Since you seemed to be bothered by the fact that “before” can MEAN “above”, perhaps you will like this definition better:

Webster’s New World Dictionary of American English, copyright 1988, page 125
before prep. 1 ahead of in…rank, or importance


...ahead of in…rank, or importance...

And as for our ancient Yisra’elite ancestors talking to “stock”…perhaps this may help. Perhaps it is not a literal “tree stump”, just as the “tree of knowledge” and the “tree of life” are not literal trees. Just a thought.

Yirm’yahu [Jeremiah] 2:27 Saying to a stock, Thou art my father…[/red]

Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of American English
STOCK, n. [G., a stem, a staff, a stick, a block. This word coincides with stake, stick, stack; that which is set or fixed.]
3. A post; something fixed, solid and senseless. When all our fathers worshipped stocks and stones.


But, then again, who knows what an ignorant people might do, they may have taken the "tree of knowledge" and/or the "tree life" to be literal and therefore worshipped "trees"; why not, there are people, even in this day and age, who think Eve, the name of a foreign goddess, is a transliteration of Hawwah, pronounced haw-oo-ah, you know kinda like yaw-oo-ah, and that Hawwah ate an apple.

Hawwah, for those who don't know, means "life, or living being".

Question at large: Does anyone, aside from us, find it interesting that "wood" and "stone" were the only two materials that the peoples of that age reportedly "graved" [wrote] on?


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 16 May 2004 07:24:05
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True North
Advanced Member

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2004 :  08:16:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
El Goyim, god or mighty among the nations ... El Gibbowr, god among the mighty or mighty hero ... El HaEretz. god of the land ... El Moab, gods (mighty men) of Moab ...

All of the verses that talk of men as gods are uncertain because of an effort to distinguish these forms from the divine name. (Brown, Driver & Briggs)

If you don't understand the term, Pater Patriens, you won't understand Genesis 6:4-5 either.

TN
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2004 :  09:19:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings brother Robert,

Steven: “One being that I move forward with the understanding that YHWH chooses and appoints all Governments (no matter if they are good or evil).” [Emphasis added]

Reply: Is this truly “forward” or directly “against” what Yahuwah, Himself, says:

Psalm 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against Yahuwah, and against his anointed...[Quoted at Acts 4:26]

Steve: When this verse was written the Israelite Kingdom fought against rival kingdoms. That is the context of this verse. This is all part of YHWH's plan and YHWH often would let the opponents win if Israel was sinning. Let's also not forget YHWH is the one who creates the good and the evil, who brings evil to the city, and creates the evil man for his day. These verses spell out the idea that YHWH is the only Sovereign. He is the One that tells the end from the beginning. I know this might be a collection of thoughts that does not fit in with your view. That's OK, but nevertheless these statements are from YHWH and form the bigger picture.

brother Robert:
Hosea 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew [to recognize, admit, acknowledge, confess] it not...

If we are “backward” for believing Him, so be it.

Steve: You are applying this verse out of context. Who is the 'they' ? Hosea was the prophet to the northern Kingdom and he is speaking to Israelites, not non-Israelites. The "they" in the verse you post are "Israelites"...As I noted earlier, these Israelite Kings were supposed to adhere to YHWH's plan for government and worship set up in Torah. The northern Kings did not do this but instead erected TWO golden calf gods. This is done by people who knew the story of what happened after the first golden calfs! For Israelites, this method is unacceptable. A king who would erect such idols and worship imaginary gods is in breach of Torah and do so not according to YHWH.

Here are two verses that back up YHWH's total control over rulers. They do speak in general terms concerning all authority:

Daniel 2:20 - Daniel exclaimed and said, "May the Name of God be blessed forever and ever, for wisdom and might are His! 21 He alters times and seasons; He deposes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who know how to reason. 22 He reveals the deep and the mysterious; He knows what is in the darkness, and light dwells with Him. 23 To You, O God of my forefathers, I give thanks and praise, for You have given me wisdom and might, and You have made known to me what we requested of You, for You have made known to us the matter of the king.

Paul knew this in Romans 13 when he said, "there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God".

brother Robert: You claim to have wasted a day thinking on this:

Steve: You need to pay closer attention. I, in no way, said I 'wasted a day'. You are putting words in my mouth here. I gave your question some serious thought and spent some quality time mulling your
position. I answered you with a verse strait from YHWH that deals with your question directly.

brother Robert:

“in our humble opinion, for why would One concern Himself with lifeless, inanimate objects that can do neither evil nor good and completely ignore the ones who can, and do, do evil continually?”

We say you "wasted your time" only because you dealt with this in general terms rather than in the context in which it was asked, which of course was in reference to the Ten Commandments; the First and Second Commandments in particular.

Steve: The many verses I have been giving you directly deal with the Israelites breaking the first and second commandment. These were not general terms but very specific demonstrations where Israel sinned. These were direct incidents that show how the Israelites broke these commandments. This is in no way a waste of time. These are point blank situations where the two commandments were broken. You do not seem to like them but they deal with why YHWH would concern himself with imaginary gods. The seriousness of all of this is that the Israelites, who experienced first hand YHWH's salvation and miracles, would turn around and attribute the power of ultimate Sovereignty and creative control to imaginary gods (1st commandment) and then worship graven idols (2nd commandment). Why you do not see how this would be the ultimate affront to YHWH, given all that He has done, is puzzling to me.


brother Robert: This was and is the question in its entirety:
“…our only bone of contention on this topic, it would seem, is that you appear to think that the 'elohiym, which are men, you know, the Psalm 82 type, are not even important enough to be dealt with in the Ten Commandments of Yahuwah, and that Yahuwah is only concerned about "figurines", i.e. IMAGINARY ‘ELOHIYM, in His Ten Commandments. Is this a correct assumption on our part?

Steve: Firstly, elohim as the word pertains to the PS 82 governing, apponted Israelite men, is not used when speaking about the leaders of other's. I have asked you to provide an instance where 'elohim' is clearly used when speaking about non-Israelite rulers. So far from my studies of this subject I have only found the word 'elohim' , when used in relation to physical men, to be speaking of Israelites who were appointed to govern and judge their own. I would appreciate a direct verse from you which contextually shows the word 'elohim' speaking of governing, non-Israelite men. Thus far I can only find the word 'elohim' as it applies to men in context of Israelites.

Secondly, I answered this in my last post. Anything be it a real man, an imaginary god, etc. can be a breach of the first and second commandment if one is saying that the subject is the one who created the heavens, the earth, the universe, etc. In a nutshell, refusing YHWH as the creator of all and recognizing another for these works. As you probably already know there are other cultures who believe that all of creation was performed by their gods, not YHWH. The prohibition against this type of belief for the Israelite is the essence of the first and second commandments. I gave you many examples from scripture that spelled out Israel breaking these commandments.

brother Robert: Or, are the First and Second Commandments dealing with both types of 'elohiym, men who would be ‘Elohiym, i.e. before or above Yahuwah, you know, like Nimrod, Ba'al [Lord] of Babylon [First Commandment], and "graven images", i.e. IMAGINARY ‘ELOHIYM or "figurines" [Second Commandment], which lead men astray from the perfect Law of libertie and He who would give them Liberty?”

THIS is the question, as succinctly as we know how to put it.

Steve: Maybe we can agree here: Anything, be it a man, an imaginary god, a cow, a chicken, whatever, that an Israelite would say to, "You created the universe and all living things in it" would be a breach of the first commandment. If a figurine idol was created to represent this 'imaginary god' then a breach of the second commandment has occurred. The verses in Jeremiah I provided you with spells this out and answers your question perfectly.

brother Robert: Since you seemed to be bothered by the fact that “before” can MEAN “above”, perhaps you will like this definition better:

Webster’s New World Dictionary of American English, copyright 1988, page 125
before prep. 1 ahead of in…rank, or importance

...ahead of in…rank, or importance...

Steve: A more accurate term would be 'other' or even more accurately 'others' since 'acheriym' is plural of 'acher'.

brother Robert:

And as for our ancient Yisra’elite ancestors talking to “stock”…perhaps this may help. Perhaps it is not a literal “tree stump”, just as the “tree of knowledge” and the “tree of life” are not literal trees. Just a thought.

Yirm’yahu [Jeremiah] 2:27 Saying to a stock, Thou art my father…[/red]

Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of American English
STOCK, n. [G., a stem, a staff, a stick, a block. This word coincides with stake, stick, stack; that which is set or fixed.]
3. A post; something fixed, solid and senseless. When all our fathers worshipped stocks and stones.

But, then again, who knows what an ignorant people might do, they may have taken the "tree of knowledge" and/or the "tree life" to be literal and therefore worshipped "trees"; why not, there are people, even in this day and age, who think Eve, the name of a foreign goddess, is a transliteration of Hawwah, pronounced haw-oo-ah, you know kinda like yaw-oo-ah, and that Hawwah ate an apple.

Hawwah, for those who don't know, means "life, or living being".

Steve: You can study history and the bible to find that there are literal idols which accompany the imaginary gods. You can also research the gods mentioned in the Tanack to find that non-Israelites attributed the act of the creation of the universe and it's contents to these imaginary gods. Jeremiah's statement is very clear and addressed your question. These errant Israelites were engaging in this sinful worship of the Nations which included worshiping Ash-roth poles, etc. The Israelites were seduced into this. See the story of Ba-lpeor and the sex worship. See them eating meat sacrificed to idols. How many examples do you need me to supply to support my position. I have many point blank examples which all point to the same thing.

brother Robert: Question at large: Does anyone, aside from us, find it interesting that "wood" and "stone" were the only two materials that the peoples of that age reportedly "graved" [wrote] on?

Steve: You are leaving out that they also 'graved' idol figurines. Note: Kathab and Miktabis are often used when the scriptures speaks about 'writing'.

The bigger issue is the direct verses I have given that show the Israelites breaking the first and second commandment. Jeremiah 2:25 - 29 is the perfect example of YHWH's frustration with Israel's biggest problem of worshiping imaginary gods and their idols:

Jeremiah 2:25 Withhold thy foot from being unshod, and thy throat from thirst: but thou saidst, There is no hope: no; for I have loved strangers, and after them will I go. 26 as the thief is ashamed when he is found, so is the house of Israel ashamed; they, their kings, their princes, and their priests, and their prophets, 27 Saying to a stock, Thou [art] my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned [their] back unto me, and not [their] face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. 28 But where [are] thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for [according to] the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah. 29 Wherefore will ye plead with me? ye all have transgressed against me, saith YHWH.

Can this get any clearer? No! YHWH is disgusted that the Israelites would attribute creation of themselves to the imaginary gods and then worship the tangible things that represent the gods.

Peace,
Steve


"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)

Edited by - BatKol on 16 May 2004 10:34:17
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BatKol
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Posted - 16 May 2004 :  09:32:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
true north said: El Goyim, god or mighty among the nations ... El Gibbowr, god among the mighty or mighty hero ... El HaEretz. god of the land ... El Moab, gods (mighty men) of Moab ...

Steve: The exact word we are discussing is elohim, not el. You have not shown this exact word, as it is used in PS 82, to be associated with appointed men other then Israelites. El, on it's own, has many meanings. But you already know this. Shall we go into this? I'd love to bring up the wide varieties of the use of the word "El". It can mean genericaly "power".

TN: All of the verses that talk of men as gods are uncertain because of an effort to distinguish these forms from the divine name. (Brown, Driver & Briggs)

Steve: Uncertain! That says it all! I have given point blank, very certain verses that illustrate the breach of the first and second commandments by Israelites.

TN: If you don't understand the term, Pater Patriens, you won't understand Genesis 6:4-5 either.

Steve: At first I thought you were speaking of Patria Potestas, the term I used in our discussion about Paul. My bad. Are you speaking about law term Pater Patriae, 'father of the country' and how this term relates to the offspring of the daughters of men? We can go there 'assuming' this is what you are talking about. Are you speaking about a father (Pater) who allows an act to be done(Patiens)? We can go there as well. You did not use these exact spellings so I don't want to assume these are what you are speaking about.

Want to really show your knowledge? Accomidate the direct request to show the word 'elohim', as it is used in PS 82, where it would apply contextually to a non-Israelite ruler. Once you do this to back up this position, maybe then I might take your claims seriously. Until then your words are just squiggly lines on my screen.

SW

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)

Edited by - BatKol on 16 May 2004 13:21:45
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BatKol
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Posted - 17 May 2004 :  06:48:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Power of Government:

Yahushua knew that YHWH is in total control concerning Governments:

John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? Knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 11 Yahushua answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Another few verses from Daniel that I missed:

"...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone He wishes."
Daniel 4:25c

Nebuchadnezzer suffered much until he learned this truth:
"All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth.-- No one can hold back His hand or say to him: 'What have you done?'"
Daniel 4:32

I'll keep adding more verses as I find them to give further support to the truth that YHWH is the One who controls absolutely everything... including earthly Kings.

Peace,
Steve





"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)

Edited by - BatKol on 17 May 2004 07:15:53
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Oneisraelite
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Posted - 18 May 2004 :  07:11:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Steven:

Ah yes, the "divine right of kings" theory, how original. Here on this ecclesia, and perhaps elsewhere, you are Babylon's greatest advocate; congratulations.

AD'VOCATE, n. [L. advocatus, from advoco, to call for, to plead for; of ad and voco, to call. See Vocal.] One who defends, vindicates, or espouses a cause, by argument...

"...they say they are all kings."

Easton's Bible Dictionary
King
Is in Scripture very generally used to denote one invested with authority... The people of Yahuwah [GOD] are also called “kings” (Dan_7:22, Dan_7:27; Mat_19:28; Rev_1:6, etc.).


And has made us kings and priests unto Yahuwah and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Father (Abba) : H1 ab Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions - 9) ruler or chief (specifically)




fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 18 May 2004 07:23:43
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BatKol
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Posted - 18 May 2004 :  12:42:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear brother Robert:

I can tell by your last response you have been unable to find the use of the word 'elohim', as it pertains to a non-Israelite physical man.
If you had, I am sure you would be posting it in bold red letters. If you do actually happen to find the word 'elohim' used in context of an non-Israelite ruler, please do let us know. Seriously. I have been spending much of my time looking. You might need to find it yourself in case someone else questions you on your concept. Until then perhaps you might study the meaning of this word:

non se·qui·tur n
1. An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises
or evidence.
2. A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it.


As for kings, cops, people, concepts, history, whatever... YHWH is in total control, always and forever. I am sorry if this offends you and if you are insulted by the many contextually accurate scriptures I have put forth to back this up. I know they don't harmonize with your theories and that's OK. No hard feelings.

Anyway, I hope this finds you and yours in blessed health.

Peace,
Steve


"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)
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Robert-James
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Posted - 26 Jun 2004 :  12:56:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I am not 'the' Brother Robert, but I am a brother, and am named Robert, so.........
there must be over one hundred times the word elohim is used for anything BUT a physical Israelite.
Just look up the word Gods, or gods, in Strong's concordance. #430 in hebrew.
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BatKol
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Posted - 27 Jun 2004 :  06:37:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Robert-James said: Well I am not 'the' Brother Robert, but I am a brother, and am named Robert, so.........

Steve: You will do.

Robert-James: there must be over one hundred times the word elohim is used for anything BUT a physical Israelite.
Just look up the word Gods, or gods, in Strong's concordance. #430 in hebrew.

Steve: Had you read the preceeding pages you would have seen that
we have covered this point in detail already.

Here is the challenge I present to you Robert-James as the topic has boiled down to this essential, all important point. I presented the same challenge to brother Robert and to this day it is still unmet:

Find us even one example in Scripture where the word #430 is used to describe a flesh and blood, non-Israelite ruler.

Until we can find this evidence, to speculate that #430 can be used to define a flesh and blood, non-Israelite ruler is like speculating over the temperature of the make-believe water in a mirage.

Robert-James, prehaps you might want to read the preceeding pages wherein we examine the usages of #430 and then, if you are up to the task, take a shot at the challenge above.

Peace,
Steve

"...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone He wishes."
Daniel 4:25c
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Robert-James
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Posted - 27 Jun 2004 :  09:04:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ah, now I get it. Your correct.
Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9 the word judge is elohim, and it references Israelite judges. Agreed.
This is why we don't bow-pray-burn insense to those not of Yahuweh.
So, as Yahuweh gives a kingdom to a non-Israelite, is He not setting up a test for His children, to see who they will obey?
The 42nd generation has been 'being birthed' since 30 a.d. {Bill Britton}
Through much tribulation shall one enter into the Kingdom. {ah, the reason for the 4th beast}
The Most High left wicked one's around so as His children could prove themselves, i.e. Loyalty.
But if one does not believe in having free will to choose, this may indeed be a redundant conversation.
Choose ye this day...whom ye shall serve.
Court houses, and the Federal government, are trying hard to show all that they are not elohim, or of Yahuweh. The Ten Words are not allowed. Same with school houses.

I like the way Strong's concordance mentions that #430-elohim "is occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates".

Old Babylon fell hard when its time limit was up. As will modern Babylon.
Mene Mene Tekel u-Parsin.
Could there be another king than caesar?
Daniel knew there was a Higher King than ol "Neb".
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BatKol
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Posted - 27 Jun 2004 :  11:16:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Robert-James: Ah, now I get it. Your correct.
Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9 the word judge is elohim, and it references Israelite judges. Agreed.
This is why we don't bow-pray-burn insense to those not of Yahuweh.

Steve: I might add (and you may even agree): One should never, ever bow-pray-burn incense even to those "of" YHWH. This type of adoration should only be done to YHWH, the absloute 'source' by which 'all' exists. Never to any 'sentient being' be they an Israelite or non-Israelite.

Robert-James: So, as Yahuweh gives a kingdom to a non-Israelite, is He not setting up a test for His children, to see who they will obey?

Steve: The Scriptures say His children are being punished with exile for breach of contract exactly as described in Deut 28 and Lev 26.

Robert-James: Through much tribulation shall one enter into the Kingdom. {ah, the reason for the 4th beast}.

Steve: The 4th Kingdom is last phase of exile and if you still see "the king apportioning land at a price" then the exile is not yet over. If you don't see a re-instituted Throne of David governing an absolute Israelite World Order then the exile is not yet over. If we buy our gas, pay our RENT and BILLS, as well as buy groceries with FICTION-BASED FRNS then if we are honest with ourselves we should accept the fact that we benefit from and utilize the 4th Kingdom. Or not accept it. Whatever. If folks are able to wilfully go about "FRNing", then we have proof positive Daniel 11:45 or 12:1 has not yet been fulfilled. Everytime we go to any of the CORPS to redeem our FRNS we pay a TAX that supports the 4th Kingdom. All religious jibberish aside, we are equal-in-act with the guy standing next to us in the check out line.

Robert-James: Through much tribulation shall one enter into the Kingdom. {ah, the reason for the 4th beast}
The Most High left wicked one's around so as His children could prove themselves, i.e. Loyalty.

Steve: If you believe you are a Shepard King in the land of your inheritence and the 4th Kingdom has no jurisdiction over you, then you should be able to successfully go hand-pick yourself the most choicest of un-occupied land and tend your crops and flocks. Do I blame you for not doing this, regardless of what theories of freedom are bandied about? NO! You know just as well as I do what will happen if you were to go Stihl down 40 acres of "WNC FOREST SERVICE" land. As for what I've seen concerning the DRIVER'S LICENSE issue the STATUTES of the 4th Kingdom are on "your side" for no tag/no license. You are not breaking any of the 4th Kingdom STATUTES by traveling around with no tags and license. Regardless, the shake down continues.

Robert-James: Court houses, and the Federal government, are trying hard to show all that they are not elohim, or of Yahuweh. The Ten Words are not allowed. Same with school houses.

Steve: Firstly, the term elohim does not apply to FED GOVT since it is not a Torah-regulated entity. Secondly, it is fitting that the 10 Words are not displayed in SCHOOL or COURT. These are 4th Kingdom institutions. You might agree with me on that last sentence. The ten words apply ONLY to Israelites or 'gerim' converts who attach themselves to the Israelite peoplehood.

Robert-James: I like the way Strong's concordance mentions that #430-elohim "is occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates".

Steve: Not just any 'magistrates', only and exclusively appointed Israelites functioning in the context of the Covenant. YHWH dismantled this long-standing Israelite institution. They were giving corrupt judgements to the lay Israelites from the time of Psalms 82 all the way to the days of destruction of the second temple.
Heck, even from before that. The reason why the Israelites demanded a "king like the Goyim" is because Samuel's elohim-sons were mis-treating the Israelites who came to have matters settled.

Robert-James: Old Babylon fell hard when its time limit was up. As will modern Babylon.
Mene Mene Tekel u-Parsin.
Could there be another king than caesar?
Daniel knew there was a Higher King than ol "Neb".

Steve: "Old Neb" learned the hard way Who gave power to his "2nd Kingdom". YHWH does the picking and choosing. There are many time-lines offered up in Daniel but freedom from the 4th Kingdom comes after 11:45. When you see everyone from the least to the greatest knowing YHWH and keeping Succot then you will know the literal Moshiach ben David has come. When you see all of the NATIONS paying tribute to the undisputed Israelite World Order then you will know that the exile is over. Until then it's 4th Kingdom rule.

We can kindly agree to disagree no problem.

Peace,
Steve


"...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone He wishes."
Daniel 4:25c

Edited by - BatKol on 27 Jun 2004 12:45:14
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Inactive Member
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Posted - 28 Jun 2004 :  18:11:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
greetings to all who serve the King of kings and all bereans out there: I timothy 6:15 ...Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;... in love ... beza
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