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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2004 :  08:47:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Against worthless customs and idolitry

Jeremiah 10:1 Hear the word that YHWH has spoken concerning you, O house of Israel. 2 This said YHWH:

Do not learn the ways of the nations, do not be frightened by the signs of the heavens, though the nations are frightened by them. 3 For the practices of the nations are foolish; for one takes wood that he cut down from the forest, fashioned by an artisan with an adaze, 4 embellishes it with silver and gold, fastens it with nails and with hammers so that is does not come apart. 5 They are liked a sculpted palm tree - they do not speak; they are carried about for they cannot walk. Do not fear them; for they can do no harm, nor can they do good.

"What" is the "they" in verse 5? The wooden idols that cannot speak or walk. These are exactly what Paul was speaking about when he made the statement "we know that an idol is nothing in the world". Indeed! Idols and imaginary 'gods' can't walk or speak, do good or evil, save anybody or even harm us. Why? Because they are nothing, fake, imaginary. Israel had (has) a problem with this type of thing.

How do we know that these are the fake, imaginary 'gods' spoken of in the first commandment? Because if 'gods' in the first commandment is the 'Ps 82 type' then YHWH would have created an impossibility in his own Law. The Israelites would not have been able to even have a congregation of the mighty to expedite Torah. The Israelites would not even have been able to have a Deut 17 king as they fit the catagory of 'mighty ones' just as the men in Ps 82. What we have in the first commandment is a decree against the imaginary false 'gods' of the heathen. (Jeremiah 10, Exodus 32, 2 Kings 17, Isa 55:20,21, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc)

Peace to all on a clear morning,
Steve


"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)

Edited by - BatKol on 08 May 2004 09:52:26
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2004 :  20:02:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings sons,
Job 2:1...Again there was a Day when the 'sons of elohim' {153} came to present themselves {sacrifice} before The YHWH, and satan came also among them to present himself before The YHWH. {Themselves vs. himself}.
Abel presented a lamb....One of the flock. Cain presented 'his' works.
Salvation is a Free Gift.
Use it.
And The YHWH picked on Job, to make a point of reference, for us all.
Scripture; was-is-will be. Past-present-future.
The problem is: where do we live?
Psalm 82 says...We are elohim, BUT, we shall die like men. Why?
Can we force anyone into the Kingdom? NO.
Free will is The precious Gift. Use it.
"Well I don't want to", "I am a puppet on a string". Ok, "your own word's shall judge you".
The modern BEAST, get's his power from those who believe he is real. I believe in Israel. Love-is-real.
LoveIsrael.
Eloi is elohim...singular. ElElyon Rules. Abraham paid tithe's to ElElYon.
Muslim's have never figured out how ElElyon{Allah}, can re-produce Himself.
Well, simple, they are not of the promised seed.
"My sheep hear My Voice".
The YHWH has only, always asked, for us, His son's, to hear and heed his Voice.
Yahushuah only spoke His Father's Word's. He spoke no word's of his own.
When in doubt, and we all shall be, go to the red letter's, written in blood.
Paul was so tickled when it pleased The YHWH to reveal His son, in Paul.
Messiah, in you, is the hope of your glory.
Where?
Oh Father, pierce my heart, and let it happen.
Ah, but for the cares of the world-system, I would.
But I have told you, unless you say, "blessed is he that comes in the name-authority of The YHWH, you won't see Me".
And unto you that look for Him, shall he appear.


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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2004 :  06:54:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
Yes, indeed, Yahuwah has, throughout the ages, had trouble with other 'elohiym, whether it be men, i.e. rulers, under a myriad of titles [First Commmandment], or with men using graven images for that same purpose [Second Commandment], to usurp his Supreme Authority, just as He does today.
Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English
GRAVE, v.t. pret. graved; pp. graven or graved. [Gr. to write; originally all writing was/is graving;; Eng. to scrape.]

Oh, and speaking of images...the Ancient Hebrew [Paleo-hebrew] language was/is "pictography" and the Ten Commandments of Yahuwah was/is graven images; first graved on stone, and later graved on our hearts. And by the way, the word statue later became statute as Steven pointed out in an earlier post.
Webster's New World Dictionary of American English, Third College Edition, copyright 1988, page 1310
statute n. [[ME < OFr statut < LL statutum, neut. of L statutus, pp. of statuere: see STATUE]

It all has to do with "status" and we are most grateful to have this opportunity to begin tying it all together.
Confucius circa 500 B. C. is reported to have said: "When words lose their meaning, people will lose their liberty."
American Law and Procedure, Vol 13, page 137, 1910:
"The law of persons is the law of status or condition."


We thought this timely information might help those following this thread.


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 09 May 2004 07:33:07
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2004 :  07:53:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Robert-James said: Psalm 82 says...We are elohim, BUT, we shall die like men.

Steve: Nothing like a good game of twister first thing in the morning. Psalm 82 says "Ye are elohim". Not 'we'. Who are the "Ye" that both Asap (Psalms) and Yahushua (quoting Psalms in John) were speaking to? Those appointed via the Torah for the express purpose of implementing the Torah in matters concerning Israel. This title 'elohim', as it is used in Psalm 82, refers only to those appointed who 'sit in Moses' seat' per Torah. If 'elohim' in the first commandment actually meant 'appointed governing men' or such as the word is used in Ps 82. then YHWH would have created an impossibility in his own Law seeing as He gave instructions to assemble and appoint such a group of men. The first commandment does not say, "You shall not have any elohim before me except these certain
elohim approved by Torah". It says, "you shall have no elohim before me". This cannot be speaking of 'elohim' as the term applies to Ps 82 else YHWH has made a huge contradiction in his own Law by commanding the Israelites to assemble such a group of 'elohim'. This is why context is key. Only two passages out of thousands can be construed to mean anything other than 'Elohim' as the title pertains to YHWH or to the imaginary 'elohim' that the nations (and sadly the Israelites) made literal idols to. As-eroth, B-al, etc. were not governmental men but rather fake, imaginary elohim who the nations made statues of. To argue that elohim means 'governing men or some like definition' in the first commandment, means giving pre-eminence to that one passage in Ps 82 and ignoring the other two thousand, seven hundred plus occurrences!!!! Think of how unreliable an argument must be that uses (and incorrectly) one piece of evidence while nearly THREE THOUSAND pieces of evidence contradict it.

Of course a whole new world opens up when context is thrown out the window. You get stuff like: UFO's lead the Israelites around in the wilderness, only the Anglo-Saxons have the breath of life, sixth day man/eighth day man, etc, ad nausea.


"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2004 :  20:12:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings brother Robert on a wonderful evening,

You said:

GRAVE, v.t. pret. graved; pp. graven or graved. [Gr. to write; originally all writing was/is graving;; Eng. to scrape.]
Oh, and speaking of images...the Ancient Hebrew [Paleo-hebrew] language was/is "pictography" and the Ten Commandments of Yahuwah was/is graven images; first graved on stone, and later graved on our hearts. And by the way, the word statue later became statute as Steven pointed out in an earlier post.
Webster's New World Dictionary of American English, Third College Edition, copyright 1988, page 1310
statute n. [[ME < OFr statut < LL statutum, neut. of L statutus, pp. of statuere: see STATUE]
It all has to do with "status" and we are most grateful to have this opportunity to begin tying it all together.


Steve: Thanks for advancing the topic. What definition fits for the literal statue of the 'golden calf' that was fashioned by Arron? As you probably already know archeology has documented these literal statues of bulls, people, and other strange creatures. The worshipers actually believed these statues to be representative of gods, just as the Israelites were requesting with the golden calf. Given that we have Arron literally, physically making one of these statues for the Israelites to dance around and worship, is it too far a stretch to think that this created figurine is just that, a graven image?

Peace to all,
Steve

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)
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True North
Advanced Member

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2004 :  23:34:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Read that again in the Hebrew, the calf jumped out, after that he 'grave' it.

Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.

TN
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2004 :  12:42:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
True North,
What hebrew word are you seeing for jumped? I have an artscroll with the Massoretic text to the right and I am not making this connection.

From Rotherham's emphisized Bible:

Exodus 32:2 - And Aaron said unto them, Break off the rings of gold, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters,- and bring them unto me. 3 And the people of themselves brake off the rings of gold which were in their ears, - and brought them unto Aaron. 4 And he received the gold at their hand and fashioned it with a graving tool, and made it a molten calf, and they said:

These are thy gods O Israel, who brought you thee up out of the land of Egypt. And when Aaron saw it he built an alter before it.

From the Artscroll:

Exodus 32:2 - Aaron said to them, "Remove the rings of gold that are in the ears of your wives, sons and daughters, and bring them to me." 3 The entire people removed the gold rings that were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took it from their hands and bound it up in cloth, and fashioned it into a molten calf. They said, "this is your god, O Israel, which brought you up from the land of Egypt."

If I knew what word was being used for 'jumped' I could locate it in the Massoretic. A little help?

Thanks in advance,
Steve

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)

Edited by - BatKol on 11 May 2004 06:12:57
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2004 :  22:21:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other 'elohiym H430 [gods] before [above] me.

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definition:
H430 'elohiym

1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges

Providing that earthly 'elohiym [rulers, judges] subjugate themselves to Yahuwah, i.e. place themselves BELOW Yahuwah, then there is no impossibility.


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2004 :  06:05:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I Yahuwah thy ‘Elohiym [God] am a jealous ‘Elohiym [1a) Ruler, Judge], visiting the iniquity [the injustice] of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:4-6

It is the Ruler [the Highest or First Magistrate], the Judge who visits injustice [iniquity], not "figurines".

If one is a 14th Amendment citizen, a PERSON with a chattel [cattell] number [SS#] then the PRESIDENT is that PERSON's "highest or first magistrate", and Yahuwah has been eliminated from the perfect alignment; words to the contrary notwithstanding. And yes, we know how unpopular this revelation [revealing] is going to make us; so be it.

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High [How in the world did they ever transliterate the Hebrew word heylel into lucifer? Lunar-tic we could understand, but light bringer? Think on that one!]

Did Yahushua, the Messiah place himself equal to or above the Supreme Magistrate? We think not: "Thou shalt worship Yahuwah thy 'Elohiym, and him only shalt thou serve."

Now, does Yahuwah have trouble with His People making statues [figurines] or statutes [public policy], i.e. “graven images”? Yes, but it is not the graven images themselves that are the problem; they can do neither evil nor good. It is what men do with these images; they subjugate other men with them, lord it over them, and use them to omit Yahuwah from the equation altogether, thus making themselves, or hoping to make themselves, judge, lawgiver, king [ruler] and savior.

If we cannot figure this one out, we are forever doomed to "playing church". We are in the third day, it is time to wake up.


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 12 May 2004 07:30:12
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2004 :  10:01:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
brother Robert said:

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other 'elohiym H430 [gods] before [above] me.

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definition:
H430 'elohiym
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
Providing that earthly 'elohiym [rulers, judges] subjugate themselves to Yahuwah, i.e. place themselves BELOW Yahuwah, then there is no impossibility.

Steve: Ah, again with only showing the definition that suits your concept...but...'elohiym' does not mean rulers in this context. You ignore the use of 'elohim' when used in connection with the golden calf which was 'fashioned' or 'graven'. Why not comment on that? Surely you don't think that this golden calf which was 'graven' out of the gold given by the Israelites was an actual, physical ruler do you?!? I hope not!

Exodus 32:2 - Aaron said to them, "Remove the rings of gold that are in the ears of your wives, sons and daughters, and bring them to me." 3 The entire people removed the gold rings that were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took it from their hands and bound it up in cloth, and fashioned it into a molten calf. They said, "this is your god, O Israel, which brought you up from the land of Egypt."

Why do you not recognise this key section?

Here are some other key scriptures from the blessings and cursing part of Torah that supports this 'false, imaginary gods of others':

Deut 28:14 - And do not turn away from any words that I command you this day, right or left, to follow the gods of others , to serve them. But if you do not listen to the voice of YHWH cursed will you be in the city and fields, cursed shall you be...

28:36 - …[curses continue] And there you will work for the gods of others of wood and stone... all these curses shall come upon you...

28:64 - YHWH will scatter you among all the peoples, from the end of the earth to the end of the earth, and there you will serve the gods of others whom you did not know - you or your fathers - of wood and stone.

Are you going to tell me these 'gods of wood and stone' are physical men?!?!?!? These sections from the blessings and cursings part of the Torah match up perfectly with the first commandment and the graven 'god' calf!

brother Robert:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I Yahuwah thy ‘Elohiym [God] am a jealous ‘Elohiym [1a) Ruler, Judge], visiting the iniquity [the injustice] of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:4-6

It is the Ruler [the Highest or First Magistrate], the Judge who visits injustice [iniquity], not "figurines".

Steve: Here again you are not recognising your own point that you brought up earlier concerning the G and g spelling of elohim! Once again you slip in your own definition that suits your concept but I will show you how your statement above is incorrect:

Exodus 20 reads "jealous God" not "jealous god". As you already know in Ps 82 'ruler, judge' is spelled 'god' lower case.. never upper-case! When you see the lower case god we have two definitions that can apply to this context.

1)Exodus 32 god or gods which is/are imaginary god(s) such as
Ast-aroth and B-al.

or

2)You also have god or gods which is ruler or judge such as Ps 82.

When you see God with the capital, then you know this is speaking about YHWH. This rendering of G or g is not some 'inspiration' but rather basic context 101.

With your rendering of elohim Yahushua would have been breaking this Mitzvah just by saying the name 'Ceaser'!!

Exodus 23:13 - The names of other's gods you shall not mention nor be heard through your mouth.

Seriously, think about it!!


"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)

Edited by - BatKol on 12 May 2004 12:56:40
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Manuel
Advanced Member

USA
678 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2004 :  11:38:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"remove the body" in order to reveal the soul, That is, remove the outer "shell" of reality (by means of the power of concentrated sight) in order to reveal reality's inner "fruit" and lifeforce.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2004 :  16:29:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Manuel,
Just think with me for a second. It's all about context. If lower case god/elohim meant a living, physical 'ruler or judge' in the verses below, think how wacky this story would be:

Genesis 31:30-34 - And now, though thou wouldest needs be gone, because thou sore longedst after thy father’s house, yet wherefore hast thou stolen my gods?31 And Jacob answered and said to Laban, Because I was afraid: for I said, Peradventure thou wouldest take by force thy daughters from me. 32With whomsoever thou findest thy gods, let him not live: before our brethren discern thou what is thine with me, and take it to thee. For Jacob knew not that Rachel had stolen them. 33And Laban went into Jacob’s tent, and into Leah’s tent, and into the two maidservants’ tents; but he found them not. Then went he out of Leah’s tent, and entered into Rachel’s tent. 34Now Rachel had taken the images, and put them in the camel’s furniture, and sat upon them. And Laban searched all the tent, but found them not. 35And she said to her father, Let it not displease my lord that I cannot rise up before thee; for the custom of women is upon me. And he searched, but found not the images.

Can you imagine Rachel taking Laban's 'earthly rulers or judges' and putting them on the camel and sitting on them? Surely the context and common sense tells us that 'gods' can most definately mean the imaginary fake 'gods' we find through out the bible!

or this one:

Exodus 12:17 - Thou shalt make thee no moltenH4541 godsH430.

and this:

Exodus 20:23 - Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

or this about the golden calf 'god':

Exodus 32:31 - And Moses returned unto YHWH, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have madeH6213 them godsH430 of gold.

In this story below Solomon is already king of the Israelites with his rule firmly in place. 'gods' in this verse does not mean ruler or judge.

1 Kings 11:4 - For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other godsH430: and his heart was not perfect with YHWH his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5For Solomon went after Asht-reth the goddessH430 of the Zidonians, and after Milc-m the abomination of the Ammonites. ..... 8And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their godsH430.

Also this which Jeroboam did:

1 kings 12 28Whereupon the king took counsel, and madeH6213 two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy godsH430, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 29And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in DanH1. 30And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.

Note that both Jeroboam and Solomon were already Israelite kings when these imaginary idol/gods were worshiped. These gods were not men acting as judges or rulers like in Ps 82 but rather false, imaginary gods like the golden calf god of Exodus 32. Again, it is all about the context that tells us what type of god we are dealing with. Both of these kings broke the first and second commandment. And as was promised in Deut 28, Israel was banished from the holy land and scattered amongst the nations.

Here is a good verse that shows gods as Israelite men ruling within the people of Israel, just like the word is used in Ps 82:

Exodus 22:28 - Thou shalt not revile the godsH430, nor curse the ruler of thy people.

Peace,
Steve

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)

Edited by - BatKol on 12 May 2004 16:44:19
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Manuel
Advanced Member

USA
678 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2004 :  18:49:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bat Kol,
Yesterday I remember hearing from a "scholar" that Ceasar would walk with a slave/servant constantly reminding him (Ceasar)that he was invinsable.

Peace and Fathers Grace be upon you and all In Fathers ecclesia,
Manuel
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2004 :  20:59:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Manuel,
Yes, what you say reminds me of this bit: 'there are some scholars that assert that the accounts of Jesus’ virgin birth in the Gospels are similar to Greek and Roman mythologies. They point to the myth told about Caesar Augustus in which his mother was made pregnant by the Greek and Roman sun god, Apollo. As for claims of being invinsible, the fool obviously ignored Rome's history! Augustus should have called out to the One True Elohim instead of an imaginary god.

We should always keep in mind that even YHWH called Nebuchanezzar 'my servant' and pagan king Cyrus 'my moshiach'. Each and every ruler is scripted by YHWH.

Proverbs 8:15By Me kings reign, and princes decree justice.16By Me princes reign, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

Peace to you and yours Manuel on a fine night,
Steve



"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2004 :  06:45:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Eccesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear 'Elohiym [the Ruler, Judge; Highest and First Magistrate], and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.[This book was probably written after the Babylonian captivity since Yahuwah's Set Apart name appears nowhere in it.]

Proverb 8:13 The fear of Yahwuah is to hate evil...not join ourselves to it.

Psalm 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against Yahuwah, and against his anointed...[Quoted at Acts 4:26]

Hosea 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew [to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess] it not...

Funny, we have a total of five different versions to compare and we cannot find a capital "M" on me in any of these...[do we detect a subtle change?]

Proverbs 8:15 By Me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By Me princes reign, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. [Emphasis added to Steven's post]

…perhaps it is because this verse is actually referring to "wisdom". And let us not forget that it is by me, wisdom, that the rulers “decree justice”.

If anyone out there can see True Justice in their decrees, you’re a better man than we are. If you cannot, then it is not by me, wisdom, that they rule.



fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 13 May 2004 12:48:17
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2004 :  08:56:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
brother Robert and sis Kathleen,
When you are right you are right. And you are right. The verse I quoted in Proverbs IS about wisdom. I am guilty of not looking to the
context. See what happens when context is ignored? A lesson for me! This Proverbs verse had been in my file of 'king' verses and the KJV sometimes does not capitalize the 'me's' and 'he's' when YHWH is talking. My bad.

However, here is a snip from Daniel verbatem from the Artscroll (KJV has God in capitals but not the 'he's'). This verse clearly illustrates YHWH's total control concerning kings:

Daniel 2:20 - Daniel exclaimed and said, "May the Name of God be blessed forever and ever, for wisdom and might are His! 21 He alters times and seasons; He deposes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who know how to reason. 22 He reveals the deep and the mysterious; He knows what is in the darkness, and light dwells with Him. 23 To You, O God of my forefathers, I give thanks and praise, for You have given me wisdom and might, and You have made known to me what we requested of You, for You have made known to us the matter of the king.

This is the same God who saved Daniel from the lion's den and Shaddrach, Meshack and Abednego from the furnace. We know this is the One True God of Israel doing this because imaginary gods cannot save. The verse you quoted in Hosea was spoken to the Northern house of Israel who did not set up kings by YHWH (These kings, especially Jeroboam, set up their own program including two imaginary golden calf gods. So not by YHWH but by false gods).

Peace,
Steve


"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)

Edited by - BatKol on 13 May 2004 09:30:43
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2004 :  10:06:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
brother Robert:
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other 'elohiym H430 [gods] before [above] me.

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definition:
H430 'elohiym
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
Providing that earthly 'elohiym [rulers, judges] subjugate themselves to Yahuwah, i.e. place themselves BELOW Yahuwah, then there is no impossibility.

Steve: Check out this literal rendering from the Hebrew via the artscroll. It does not have 'above'.

Shemos 20:3 - Lo-YHWH LehRa ELoHiYM AahCHayRiYM AahL-PHahNahY:

"You shall not recognize the gods of others (elohim Acharim) in My presence."

How do we know that the gods of others are the false, imaginary gods? Because verses 3 - 6 are all in one paragraph and give the context to the complete thought (also given the fact that there are many verses which have gods and molten/carved idols together see Genesis 31:30-34, Exodus 12:17, Exodus 20:23 for a few). Carved images and imaginary gods go hand in hand, just as the context in these verses show. Israel was commanded repeatedly to smash these idols and destroy the alters and places of worship for these imaginary gods. The incident with the golden calf has both molten and god in the section, just as many other sections do through out Tanakh... Here is the whole section of Shemos 20:3 - 6:

You shall not recognize the gods of others (elohim acharim) in My presence. You shall not make yourselves a carved image nor any likeness of that which is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the water beneath the earth. You shall not prostrate yourself to them nor worship them, for I am YHWH your God - a jealous God, Who visits the sin of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation, for My enemies; but Who shows kindness for thousands (of generations) to those who love Me and observe My commandments.

This paragraph form is exactly as it appears in the Hebrew. One complete thought. The gods of others very often go hand in hand with silly figurines as is shown in Genesis 31:30-34, Exodus 12:17, Exodus 20:23. There are more verses like this which show this connection but I think you get the idea.

Peace,
Steve



"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)

Edited by - BatKol on 13 May 2004 11:47:00
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2004 :  14:20:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and salutations in the name of Our King, brothers and sisters of this Ecclesia:

Peace be unto the house.

Here are two excerpts from our recent posts, perhaps re-reading these will help.

"...does Yahuwah have trouble with His People making statues [figurines] or statutes [public policy], i.e. “graven images”? Yes, but it is not the graven images themselves that are the problem; they can do neither evil nor good. It is what men do with these images; they subjugate other men with them, lord it over them, and use them to omit Yahuwah from the equation altogether, thus making themselves, or hoping to make themselves, judge, lawgiver, king [ruler] and savior," [end quote] i.e they wish to be 'Elohiym, with a capital "E", and they use their "graven images" to accomplish this.

"Yes, indeed, Yahuwah has, throughout the ages, had trouble with other 'elohiym, whether it be men, i.e. rulers, under a myriad of titles [First Commmandment], or with men using graven images [Second Commandment] for that same purpose, to usurp his Supreme Authority, just as He does today", [end quote] and just one more time for emphasis, because they wish to be 'Elohiym with a capital "E", and they use these "graven images" or "figurines" or whatever else one wishes to call them, to accomplish this.

As you can see from these we are not so stupid or ignorant as to know that there are other definitions of 'elohiym, just as you are not so stupid or ignorant as to think they are all "figurines", but rather will readily admit that some are indeed rulers and judges.

So our only bone of contention on this topic, it would seem, is that you appear to think that the 'elohiym, which are men, are not even imporant enough to be dealt with in the Ten Commandments of Yahuwah, and that Yahuwah is only concerned about "figurines". Is this a correct assumption on our part? Or are the First and Second Commandments dealing with both types of 'elohiym, both men [part one], and graven images[part two]?

As we said, way-y-y-y back near the beginning, if we cannot come to an agreement on this word, 'ELOHIYM, then all other debates are a waste of time.

How long halt ye between two opinions? if Yahuwah be 'Elohiym, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Can anyone else see that Baal is a "him", and that it is obviously implied that he wishes to supplant Yahuwah as 'Elohyim, with a capital "E"?

Is there anyone else following this topic? If so, we would like to know if you too are having trouble digesting this information so that we may hopefully make this more understandable for everyone concerned.

fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 13 May 2004 15:25:50
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Manuel
Advanced Member

USA
678 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2004 :  15:24:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings for The Life Giver and Father,

I have seen through His Eyes many "figures" of many superstitions. I have seen even how man/woman worship these objects. They place food, coins, promises at its feet. I see how other images are wor-shipped and even feared, even when these images are made by their own hands.

These are revealing times as these man made images are dividing the minds, hearts and souls of men. Some will awaken during their sleep and some will not. Some will pass and some will pass not.

Do not be conquered by these ins-tilled fears. The soil is not fertile and will not bear good fruit for His little sons and daughters to eat.





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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2004 :  17:37:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings brother Robert,

You said: As you can see from these we are not so stupid or ignorant as to know that there are other definitions of 'elohiym, just as you are not so stupid or ignorant as to think they are all "figurines", but rather will readily admit that some are indeed rulers and judges.

Steve: I am not saying you are stupid. What I am doing is showing the many verses where both gods and idols are proven to be false. The graven image is the figurine, the imaginary god is what is attached to the figurine. Both fake. I have been giving examples of verses which context supports the use of gods as the term relates to physical rulers and judges. Ps 82 and Exodus 22:28. I am doing this to show the difference between the two lower case god definitions, complete with context.

brother Robert: Can anyone else see that Baal is a "him", and that it is obviously implied that he wishes to supplant Yahuwah as 'Elohyim, with a capital "E"?

Steve: Firstly, Ba-l is historically proven to be a false imaginary god not some man ruler. Secondly, since Ba-l is not real 'he' can't wish to supplant YHWH. The Israelites wanted this, not the imaginary god. Third, YHWH is also spoken of as 'him' when a sentence forms an idea. This use of 'him' does not mean YHWH has a physical body, no more than the use of 'him' makes Ba-l a real, living man.

Here is some info on Ba-l:

Ba-l-peor: "Master of the generative organ; a Moabitish idol in whose worship females prostituted themselves." Baal-peor is a god who appears both as a male sun-god and a female moon-goddess.

History shows a pantheon of imaginary B-als 'ruling' over everything from fertility to you name it. Polytheism i.e., imaginary. There are statues made in the honor of these imaginary gods.

Peace,
Steve




"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)
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