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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 13:36:14
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Boy for somebody who disrepects LAWYERS you sure respond like one!
Point blank, do you consider Exodus 34:10 - 28 to be included in the commandments spoken of in your verse snipped from Revelations? What's the matter, afraid to be a man and give a strait answer??? LOL
"And they could not answer him again to these things" |
Edited by - BatKol on 27 Apr 2004 13:43:29 |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 19:25:55
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Steven, why stop at verse 28? Moses saw the Truth, and veiled it. Paul was chosen to un-veil "it", the Truth, of which Moses was the shadow of Truth. The people, could not handle the Truth.
Have I mentioned before, Second Corinthians Third chapter? Verse 15, But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. [hello?]Scripture is coded, to keep the dogs and whoremonger's out! And Moses was very circumspect, in this matter.
Every bit of Exodus 34 has a secondary meaning. And the Master was always asking , "do ye have eyes to see and ears to hear"? The veil was rent, in the temple, at 3:00 abib 15 30 a.d. And I could say, bal, bal, bal. For Ye are the temple.
I mean not to offend anyone, but the dead letter can be of the old testament, or, the new, anymore. We have come full circle. Anyone want off the circle?
Circumcise your hearts.
Those of you who can't understand me, read Isaiah 25:7..and do not condemn your self. We have been given the ministry of reconciliation, as Paul stated in the fourth chapter of his letter to Corinthian Israelites, blind as a bat. To wit, YaHuWeH was "in" messiah, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their tresspasses {breaking Mosaiac law] unto them: and has committed unto Us, the Word of reconciliation...Now we are ambassadors for Messiah....
Paul, and I, and other's, groan within ourselves, awaiting Messiah Yahushuah, to be formed [morphed} in you. Paul..."for it pleased YHWH to reveal His son, in me". Now, that is point blank. There shall be no excuse, "in that day".
Paul was like so many, and was asked, "Saul, Saul {old name} why do you fight AGAINST the Divine revelation"?
Messiah was with Israel in the wilderness walk, but they {excepting a few} could not enter in...because of unbelief. Their choice. Paul, or someone, wrote to the hebrews of the Roman age, and said the same thing is happening now {then}...they could not enter in, behind the veil, because of unbelief.
There is no question in my mind, Father YHWH can, and does, raise the dead, unto new Life.
And the sceptic says, "prove it".
Thomas, was so humbled, he called Yahushuah, YHWH.
Anyone want to marry wisdom? YHWH did, and can produce Life. Every-thing Eve produced, was born spiritually dead. Thank YHWH for the election, of every age, who were chosen to Life, else, we would be so very lost!
If people were to be told the Truth, I like to think, they would run with their crucifixion stake {cross}, in Order to receive the new Life. For there is no other Way. MR ALL CAPS must go by the way unto perdition.
Did not the Master, say to pick up your cross, and follow Him? Cross...is self-sacrifice.
The most... foremost... BEAST we shall ever encounter, is that thing called EGO. "My will be done".
Exodus 34:10 says YHWH will make a covenant. Elsewhere, He makes many covenants. Newer one's. Only one is unconditional. The rest, correct me here, must be agreed upon. And this includes choice.
He is saying, "your turn to be included in my covenants". The choice is yours, and the Heavenly 'host', is watching, and marking things as they be.
A man's name can be taken out...of the Book of Life.
There is a big test coming, hope we all study to approve our-selves. And have the works to show that we stand not naked.
Is YaHuWeH, ioua, your King? Is there enough proof to hold up in The court?
For YHWH is the Judge, and He has given all judgement to the Son of man...the CapStone Company...the overcomers.
And the overcomer's will listen to THEIR own words, and judge them by their own words.
How can the Most High resurrect the dead? How can the Most High make a bee fly, a butterfly come forth from a worm? How can He breathe into a lump of clay, and give life to ha-Adam?
I Am pretty proud of My Daddy...
Somehow Yahushuah thought these things out, by reading the scriptures of His day. Don't think for a second, it was a cake walk for Him. Nor shall it be for us, either. He does Rule over the nations, right now. And, He Will Rule in your life, right now, if ye let Him, him, being Messiah. The choice is yours.
Thou shall not seethe a kid in his mother's milk. JEWS today, won't eat a cheesburger. PLEASE, spare me from the dead letter!
Don't tell a child the Truth, wait, till they grow some.Well, Christianity has fed the children milk. And by now, it is soured and rank!
Exodus 34:30...and when Aaron and all the CHILDREN, of Israel saw Moses, behold...the skin of his face shone; and they were AFRAID to come unto him.
Grow up folks, the clock is ticking...
THEY won't like it when your face shines, either. Messiah in you, is the hope of your glory.
Moses wrote the Law on tables of stone. Later on, they are written on the very heart. Psalm 40:8. This is where the immaculate conception takes place. And produces a son.
The son sits in the womb, and eventually wants to fight his/her Way out, unto eternal Life. May I close with the sixth chapter of Paul's letter to the Israelite's living in Corinith; verse 17.-18. "Wherefore come out from among THEM, and be ye set-apart, saith YHWH, and touch not the unclean, and I Will receive you. And, {what a promise!] Will be A Father unto you, and Ye shall Be my Sons and Daughter's saith YHWH
It can not get better than this. Come what may.
Abba...Daddy. |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 20:48:52
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Robert-James said: Steven, why stop at verse 28?
Steve: I am not stopping at verse 28 in toto. I am trying to be very specific so I can get a strait answer. Instead I get evaded consistantly. Very, very suspecious. I ask you point blank: Is the literal covenant given by YHWH in Exodus 34:10 - 28 still valid in the literal "peshat" level?
Robert-James said: Thou shall not seethe a kid in his mother's milk. JEWS today, won't eat a cheesburger. PLEASE, spare me from the dead letter!
Steve: What you are quoting from is the Jews' rendering of this verse from the Talmud, not Torah. Concerning Talmud: Rabbi Phillip Blackman's translation is the most respected.
Check it out:
http://www.jewishstore.com/Books/Products.asp?ProdID=0910818002
Robert-James said: Those of you who can't understand me
Steve: On my end, it's never a matter of not understanding you.... it's a matter of not agreeing with you on certain key issues.
What do you say? Will you answer "yes" or "no" to the question of
the current validity of Exodus 34:10-28, or will you join the growing list of those who evade the question? |
Edited by - BatKol on 28 Apr 2004 21:05:35 |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 22:58:28
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My Dear Brother Steven,
not to be evasive, but in truth, I can only ask, only ask, is the veil removed from the heart? The Master answered "THEM" in parables, so as THEY would not understand! He did not want THEM to understand His doctrine! Just who was this guy? YHWH, in flesh form. A stumbling block to the Jews, whoever THEY be.
This is not quantum physics, least ye believe...as a child, ye shall not enter in.
Yes, the Law is still in effect, throw the wheat overboard, as Paul did, to save the ship from wrecking.
Helen Keller is a fine example of one, blind-deaf-dumb, till some teacher cared enough to reach out.
Paul was willing to become a curse, that Israel, his kinsmen, could, and would understand, Messiah. UnderStand. The EGO has gotta go. Unless ye believe as, a child. Such a humbule-ing statement.
There is something...Steven, known as the re-Newed covenant. As spoken of in Yeremiah, and elsewhere. where He would write, scribe, His Law, within our hearts. Wow. Not stone's! But...My Heart. psalm 40:8. My spirit womb.
Can two walk together...unless they be agreed? [is man dual natured?]
I am too far past going to a JEWISH bookstore to acquire info, comma.Period, said so.
Call no man...Rabbi. For One is your Teacher...the Spirit of Truth. By the Way, blackman, as a surmane, is English/Scottish. Did this Khazar buy the name? Or is he a Shepardic Judah? And if he is of Yeduah, he would not want to be known as a Rabbi. For there is but One Teacher, all other's, are PRETENDER'S. But say the RABBI's, listen to us!
As your question: is your heart circumcised?
I feel I speak for the ecclesia in this Steven: is your heart circumcised? For most ignore your questions. You "seem" to be in the quest of Messiah...YaHuSHuaH. Paul stated it best, "it pleased YHWH to reveal His Son...in me". The veil must be rent, to "see".
I do pray Father/Son daily for your very salvation. For, it is worth "it" all.
For the "glory" set before Him, He endured the shame of the cross. WHAT?
To be hated and rejected by Yerusalem, the City of the people of YaH, and yet, He could say, "Father forgive THEM, for they know not what THEY do". That is My Guy! I wanna be like Him, and so shall I Be, like Him. Not the same, but, like Him.
Till judgement comes.
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 09:26:52
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Robert-James said: not to be evasive, but in truth, I can only ask, only ask, is the veil removed from the heart?
Steve: I could say "yes" but then you would probably ask, "then why do you have a DL"? I could ask you the same question and you would answer "yes" and then I would definitely ask how you could answer such with your current working concept of 'family values'and how you treat those you even call friends. Either way, it's all YHWH's game plan, decided from before you or I even came into this earthly realm. All to be played out exactly as He sees fit. Good or evil. Your every hair on your head, your every step has been foretold before there was a 'you'. 'You' can disagree and I won't mind. It's YHWH's will that you disagree.
Robert-James said: The Master answered "THEM" in parables, so as THEY would not understand! He did not want THEM to understand His doctrine!
Steve: That's odd because when the Moshiach comes there will be no secrets and every one from the least to the greatest will know YHWH...
so much for turning the hearts of the fathers back to the sons and vise-versa.
Robert-James asked: Just who was this guy? YHWH, in flesh form.
Steve: YHWH is not a man that he should lie, nor the son of man that He should repent. Yahushua was baptized for forgiveness of sin by John. YHWH has no form but is Spirit.. You have done a major turn around on the YHWH in the flesh doctrine. Before the DL issue you used to hammer everybody on the "God in the flesh" doctrine. You used to proclaim Jesus Christ is the anti-Christ!!!!
Robert-James said: Yes, the Law is still in effect, throw the wheat overboard, as Paul did, to save the ship from wrecking.
Steve: Where your doctrine falls apart is that Paul was a full-blown ROMAN CITIZEN who accessed the COURTS with his STATUS. Paul also was one who upheld Torah yet some would say that Paul traversed just to uphold their pet doctrine!! Yahushua was not guilty of treason against ROME as Pilate himself knew that the charges by the Jews were false contrived only to frame him.
You claim to be following the Law which demands you 'make no covenant with the inhabitants of the land', etc.. You also have claimed that America is the promised land and that this is the land of your inheritance. I ask you and others: If you are following the Law with your newly circumcised heart, then why are you not tearing down the idols from all of the Baal churches that surround you in the land of your inheritance? That commandment is very clear yet I have not seen a one of you, not a one, who upholds that command while at the same time claiming that this land America is the inheritance. Why do you all NOT go rip down these CHURCH buildings? Because Bubba and his buddies would string ya'll up from the nearest tree and gut youns like hogs.... A bit more serious then a petty DL misdemeanor. And if Bubba did not get to you all, then the 4th KINGDOM judge would send your hide down the river, regardless of your name game. Try to fulfill Exodus 34:13 and see if I am correct.
Robert-James: The EGO has gotta go.
Steve: The Ego is the very thing that thinks "Robert-James" has the authority to go around pronouncing 'spiritual life' or 'spiritual death' on others.
Robert-James: I am too far past going to a JEWISH bookstore to acquire info, comma.Period, said so.
Steve: Yes. You write your own personal Talmud, deciding which Laws are wheat, which one you like, which ones you dislike, etc. Then you get angry when other's don't agree. Going so far as pronouncing who ever does not go along with your personal Talmudizations are "Spiritually DEAD"... And you want to preach about EGO?? Big, giant LOL. Clean the egg off your face.
Robert-James: Call no man...Rabbi. For One is your Teacher...the Spirit of Truth. By the Way, blackman, as a surmane, is English/Scottish. Did this Khazar buy the name? Or is he a Shepardic Judah?
Steve: The Blackman name has deep roots in Judaism and is a well established surname with the Yahudim.
Robert-James: I feel I speak for the ecclesia in this Steven: is your heart circumcised? For most ignore your questions.
Steve: My questions started getting ignored when I trimmed off all other points down except for two. Before this the posts were brisk because there were many other points of mine one could address while ignoring the important ones which would have advanced the topic to the bottom line. When I narrowed the questions down (at their request!) the 'bondservants' folded,where as before, we were going on for months. Again, I could answer 'yes' to your question and even have the works to prove it but you have your own criteria. Like a KATTI priest you like to go around pronouncing "Spiritual death" upon those who do not agree with you. What grieves us here is how you have recently treated even your best friend of many years with your recent comments about him. And you wonder where all of your friends went?? And you want to preach about the ego? We are sincerely embarrassed for you.
Robert-James: You "seem" to be in the quest of Messiah...YaHuSHuaH. Paul stated it best, "it pleased YHWH to reveal His Son...in me". The veil must be rent, to "see". I do pray Father/Son daily for your very salvation. For, it is worth "it" all.
Steve: You need to worry about yourself, not me. YHWH has blessed me beyond what words can describe. Instead of pointing that finger at other's specs you should get that beam out of your own eye first.
Robert-James: Till judgment comes.
Steve: It's here and has been all along. Not some future event. All there ever is, is Now. |
Edited by - BatKol on 29 Apr 2004 11:06:04 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 19:47:30
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Brother Robert said: My dear Steven:
Peace be unto the house.
Steve: Peace to you.
brother Robert: You can take your "suspicions" [just like "feelings", "suspicious spirits" too can be deceiving], stuff them in your pipe, and smoke them. Your quest is to find definitively unanswerable questions; and everyone here knows this, BUT for this one moment we shall break our silence [re: debating you].
Steve: The questions are NOT unanswerable.They just conflict with your doctrine. My quest to find unanswerable questions? This is your claim, not mine. BTW, I have a laundry list of items I could put to you that challenge your position but I have learned recently to go one at a time with you all. I have other points besides Exodus 34:13, but these would really, really get you upset judging from your last response.
brother Robert: Next you resort to name calling. You Steven, called me "Teacher", not I! Then you proceed to say that there is only "One Teacher", and all the rest are only "PRETENDERS". I am not a PRETENDER, that is a false accusation!!!
Steve: Nonsense. I was not 'name-calling'. Earlier you had made a statement about "coming in and disrupting class" did you not? Who teaches class but a teacher? This is where I was coming from. You can take your misguided emotions and stuff them as well. You are on a fantasy head trip if you think I was calling you names and accusing you to be a PRETENDER.
brother Robert: My walk with Yahuwah is not yet Perfected, my Faith is not yet as Full as He desires it to be, and I am not as Bold as I ought to be, but I am not a PRETENDER and I greatly resent your implication that I am!
Steve: You are putting words in my mouth. I, in no way, called you a pretender at all. I greatly resent your implication that I would imply that you are a pretender. This is pure 100% nonsense you are putting forth.
brother Robert: And to insinuate that Manuel is "not a man" unless he debates you; what a pompus ass you can be, dear brother.
Steve: You are so one sided on this it makes me sick. Manuel attacked me out of nowhere with name calling, as he has in the past. I don't seek him out for conversation. He was not even participating in our topic when he accused me of "trying to cover my tracks". Even you should have seen through this with all of the details I had been giving in my posts....And you call me pompus for calling him to the floor? Please spare us the one-sided drama.
brother Robert: No one wants to debate you, Steven, not because they cannot show you the answer, but because they perceive you will accept no answer that is not 100% in compliance with your view of "milking" Babylon for all it is worth.
Steve: More nonsense. I have given you scripture after scripture to back up my positions but these you do not like as well as evade for the most part. I have shown clearly that there is no Govt that the Torah considers Lawful except for Deut 17. Republics, Democracies, whatever are NOT lawful as the word pertains to Deut 17. Anything less than Deut 17 is exile. Anything less than an Israelite World Order with everybody from the least to greatest knowing YHWH means that Moshich has not yet come.
brother Robert: The answer to your Exodus 34 question is: YES the Ten Commandments of Yahuwah still stand. There, we have answered it definitively!! We were answering you but you didn't know it.
Steve: I was clear concerning your statements on the 10 words. I wanted to know if you considered Exodus 34:10 - 28 to be a valid
in this context. I can see that you do so I will address your comments below.
brother Robert: Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest [lest means, "for fear that"], lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: [colon indicates continuation of previous thought] But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: [colon indicates continuation of previous thought] For thou shalt worship no other 'elohiym: for Yahuwah, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous 'Elohiym [jealous means, "requiring exclusive loyalty"]: [colon indicates continuation of previous thought] Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their 'elohiym, and do sacrifice unto their 'elohiym, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; [semi-colon also indicates continuation of previous thought] And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their 'elohiym, and make thy sons go a whoring after their 'elohiym. Thou shalt make thee no molten 'elohiym. Exodus 34:12-17
Steve: OK
brother Robert: From the start to the finish of these few verses, they all have to do with making convenants! For example, "molten" in verse seventeen can mean, "a league, or covering". These verses are a detailed explanation of the First and Second Commandments of Yahuwah and how not to Break them, i.e. "make no covenants". One "destroys their altars, breaks their images, and cuts down their groves" by exposing them for what they are, not by burning the neighborhood "church"!!
Steve: What you are failing to digest is that this was being said to the Israelites before they were going to take the promised land by military conquest. This involves literally destroying the enemies' temples. You are soft-shoeing this, especially if you claim you are in the land of your inheritance.
brother Robert: If someone claims to have "killed their neighbor's sacred cow" it does not mean they "killed" his cow, it means, "they destroyed a false belief"!
Steve: You need to read about the conquest of the promised land.
This was a literal event which included clearing the land of the temples of the enemy. Literally. You are turning Exodus 34:13 into some conceptual theory when the Israelites executed this verse literally in combat. They failed to honor this commandment (and others) completely and got exiled from the land promised to their forefathers.
brother Robert: Can you handle this Truth you so "desperately" wanted?
Steve: LOL. "Truth"? and you call me pompus!! This is your soft-shoe conceptualization of a literal command to a people who are going into battle to take the promised land. Are you going to conceptualize also the killing of the enemy as something that was not a literal event as well?
brother Robert: Understanding of the word 'elohiym is essential to comprehending what is being said in these verses of the Scripture.
You attempt to use this verse to create an impossibility for those seeking the Kingdome of Yahuwah and you have failed miserably!
Steve: Understanding what you mean with Elohim is a task in itself. One post you say "e - all of the above", then when I deal with that you switch to "1 - 1a".. Which is it? It can't be both. As for the literal rendering of Exodus 34:13 this is not an impossibility. Read the history of Israel when they were fighting for the promised land. You have failed miserably in trying to conceptualize a literal commandment to rid the land of strange temples.
brother Robert: Find another "impossibility [bone]" to worry to death. This one is done. I am sorry to sound so harsh, dear brother, but you resort to wheedleing, cajoling, chicanery, phistry and name calling, and claim you do this in the spirit of Trut The Spirit of YHWH tells us otherwise.
Steve: Are you serious? Are you not the one who said earlier concerning Daniel that "the first commandmnet was suspended" then turn around and said recently that the "ten commandments are eternal"? You also flip flopped on your definition of Elohim when I tried to study that one out. One time you said "e- all of the above" then you said "1 - 1a". Then we have the many context issues...You might want to take a look at yourself before you start accusing me. Seriously.
brother Robert: sorry this sounds so harsh.
Steve: No problem. I am not going to loose sleep believe me. How do expect me to respond? I could whine how you are wrongly accusing me but why bother. I am used to having words put in my mouth and being misunderstood at this point.
brother Robert: And to your "thank you" we say, "You are very welcome."
Peace.
Steve: If you are ever in a bind you should know you can count on me.
It is quite painful to think that you believe I would call you a pretender. That is not true at all and I in no way intended that. YHWH has you doing what you have to do, and for me what I have to do.
Peace to you all. I, too, am sorry this sounded harsh. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.
PS - I have not milked babylon in any way. I work for every scrap of food that goes into my family's mouth, just like you. I don't send my children to public school, I am debt-free with no LOANS, and never once have I taken a GOVT hand-out. I pay my way every step of the way. On top of that I have worked hard to put food in other's mouths as well when their biological father refused to. |
Edited by - BatKol on 30 Apr 2004 20:47:28 |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 20:41:01
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If I am not mistaken, YHWH has been Kingdom building for a long time now. Israel, physical, has always been his battle axe and weapon of war.
Steven, you could show alot by answering Deut.18:15: The YaHuWeH thy Creator, will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethern {see ch. 34:10}, like unto me. Unto Him shall ye hearken.
Now, for the ecclesia's clarity sake, is the Prophet Yahushuah? aka, KJV, Jesus of Nazareth?
Does His blood sacrifice cleanse your-mine, sin, trangressing of the Law?
Is Yahushuah, The Prophet? For this Prophet, stated, "I speak My Father's words,and they shall not pass away, though heaven and earth shall pass away, [symbolically}, My Word's shall not pass away.
Is Yahushuah the Annonted One? For you post at the ecclesia, those called out of Babylon, by the prophet's Voice. Have ye heard His Voice? For He said, that he speaks for the Father. The crux.
The crossroads.
Is Yahushuah YHWH's Firstborn?
And ,did YHWH raise a dead man to new Life?
A child can understand the question. Do ye believe? |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 21:08:02
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| Here after shall the Son of Man sit on the Right Hand of Power of YHWH. |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 21:16:25
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Robert-James: If I am not mistaken, YHWH has been Kingdom building for a long time now. Israel, physical, has always been his battle axe and weapon of war.
Steve: Yes. And this included killing people and destroying strange temples. You know this as you have studied Israel's conquests.
Robert-James: Steven, you could show alot by answering Deut.18:15: The YaHuWeH thy Creator, will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethern {see ch. 34:10}, like unto me. Unto Him shall ye hearken.
Now, for the ecclesia's clarity sake, is the Prophet Yahushuah? aka, KJV, Jesus of Nazareth?
Steve: Here is the problem. Actually just one problem among many. Jesus referes to himself as the bad shepard/false prophet of Zach 13 when he proclaims he fulfilled the prophecy of receiving the wounds in the house of his friends. If you go read Zach 13 where this was taken from you will clearly see that the shepard being spoken of is a false prophet. Brother Robert and I have mulled this one over on the phone recently and we were both scratching our heads!
Robert-James: Does His blood sacrifice cleanse your-mine, sin, trangressing of the Law?
Steve: YHWH, who changes not, has a clear salvation program: Return to Me, I return to you.
I am very cautious to consider an alternative. As you once said often, Jesus Christ is the Anti-Christ. He very well could be the 'great delusion' especially in light of Zach 13. But, the verdict is not yet in honestly. I will say the more time I spend on this forum, the less I believe in JC as he is portayed in the KJV and NT.
Robert-James: Is Yahushuah, The Prophet? For this Prophet, stated, "I speak My Father's words,and they shall not pass away, though heaven and earth shall pass away, [symbolically}, My Word's shall not pass away.
Steve: Again, there are so many trouble spots in the NT I seriously qustion what was really said.
Robert-James: Is Yahushuah the Annonted One? For you post at the ecclesia, those called out of Babylon, by the prophet's Voice. Have ye heard His Voice? For He said, that he speaks for the Father. The crux. The crossroads. Is Yahushuah YHWH's Firstborn?
Steve: The scriptures clearly say that Israel is His firstborn
Robert-James: And ,did YHWH raise a dead man to new Life?
Steve: It has been said.
Robert-James: A child can understand the question. Do ye believe?
Steve: If Jesus really did say that he was the shepard in Zach 13, then this would have a serious effect on the question. What do you say? Is Jesus the false prophet spoken of in Zach 13 who received the wounds in the house of his friends? If he is then I believe he is what he says he is. If he did not really say this, then the verdict is not in and I strive to know who he really was... and he ain't God in the flesh. Sorry, to confess that he was would be, to me, the worst form of idol worship. And you are free to disagree.
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Edited by - BatKol on 30 Apr 2004 22:09:29 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 07:18:36
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Greetings Steven:
Peace be unto the house.
Your apology is accepted as I hope that mine is; I will make every effort to "stuff my misguided emotions".
Since verse thirteen was sandwiched between two warnings about making covenants and included the First and second Commandments [encapsulated] we naturally assumed that this was all tied together. We also assumed that if we were to break down the local churches here that not too many people would care to make a covenant with us anyway so why worry about it.
Further, we did try to clarify why Shaul/Paul said “there be 'elohiym [gods] many” but evidently failed miserably in our attempts to spell it out.
Mattith'yahu [Matthew] 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even the Anointed One [Christ]; and all ye are brethren.
If we are not mistaken, Rab is a political term. Rather than teacher, this Hebrew word seems to mean:
H7227 rab
BDB Definition: 2) captain, chief (noun masculine)
Capit, as in captain, means "head".
Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English
CAPTAIN, n. 1. Literally, a head or chief officer...
CHIEF, a. 1. Highest in office or rank; principal...
PRIN'CIPAL, n. A chief or head; one who takes the lead... 1. The president, governor, or chief in authority.
Teacher seems to be either biyn or yarah….
…but we could be wrong on this point since we fail to digest so much these days.
The first shall say to Zion, Behold, behold them: and I will give to Jerusalem one that bringeth good tidings. For I beheld, and there was no man; even among them, and there was no counsellor, that, when I asked of them, could answer a word.
When do you suppose that Yahuwah is going to send to Yeru-shalayim this “counsellor” with “good tidings”? Soon, we hope.
[Yeru-shalayim means, “teaching of peace”. Yeru is a form of yarah if we are not mistaken again.]
Peace, brother Steven, and thank you for your kind offer.
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 10:06:29
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Dearest brother Robert and family,
You were forgiven before any word was put forth during these exchanges
for I know how points can get 'misconstrued'. Such is the nature of this medium of communication but it is good to remind each other from time to time. I value you guys and even though we don't agree on every point I always smile when I think of all the good times we have had and hopefully will have in the future. And when Moshiach comes and YHWH chooses Jerusalem again, YHWH willing, it would be a pleasure to go 'turn the tables' with you. But for now we each must occupy and maintain the best we know how!
Peace to you all,
Steve |
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Manuel
Advanced Member
USA
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 13:05:36
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Like I re-minded before: "Blood is thicker than water."
Do you not be like the snake which eats itself.
In Him, The Life Giver, Father Willing,
I am,
Manuel
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 04:10:46
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Greetings Steven:
Peace be unto the house.
We indeed have, and as you say, hopefully will have, some wonderful times together! <sing my favourite song for me>
This is a difficult medium of thought exchange for one cannot clear the air on misunderstandings quickly as in open conversation thus they tend to fester unnecessarily.
We thank you for the kind words and please remind the family that we love them too. Thank you in advance.
brother Robert: & sister Kathleen: & little brother Kevin:
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 06:37:14
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Now, as most will readily see by the list of questions posted by us [April 26th], the creator, or Creator, of a thing is the ‘elohiym, i.e. supreme sovereign [god] of “that” thing, thus “I have said, Ye are 'elohiym [gods]” and “there be ‘elohiym [gods] many” are true statements.
Providing these [minor] ‘elohiym are obedient to the Supreme ‘Elohiym’s Moral Law, the Ten Commandments of Yahuwah, then they will not be a threat to good works. HOWEVER, if they think to eliminate the Highest Authority and refer to themselves as the “highest or first magistrate”, i.e. master, they place themselves in the contrary position of being judge, lawgiver, ruler and saviour [benefactor] “before”, i.e. against Yahuwah.
“The kings [rulers] of the earth set [station] themselves, and the rulers [princes] take counsel together, against Yahuwah, and against his anointed…” [And naturally, this most important verse was reiterated in the New Covenant (Testament).]
They have set up kings [rulers], but not by Me: they have made princes [they have made governments], and I knew it not…
When this occurs you will see “laws” [public policies] that literally destroy men who take it upon themselves [or perhaps are “inspired”] to translate the Set-Apart [Holy] Scriptures, you will see “laws” that forbid the reading of it, or certain parts of it, in public places, you will see “laws” that forbid the Ten Commandments of Yahuwah to be used as the guiding light in their “COURTS” and you will see “laws” that forbid the Moral Law of Yahuwah in their “indoctrination centers” [schools]. Why? Because darkness has no communion [communication] with Light! Light [knowledge] will dispel darkness [ignorance]!
My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge…
Thus we see these inspired words from Yahu’chanan (Yahuwah’s Grace) [John, the Elder], directing us that we should not even, “bid them god speed [fare-well] or we become partakers of their evil deeds”, let alone join ourselves [adhere] to them. This would be akin to joining ourselves to the “bully in the schoolyard” and obeying him to save our own hides while watching our brethren be destroyed by this tyrant. Know this, that whatever befalls our brethren will eventually befall us; know it for a Truth.
And know this also, the one, or ones, who stand up to the “bully” [Goliath] may take a horrendous beating for doing so, and those watching from the sidelines may say, “Who in the world would want to join this guy?” And we shall say, “Watch out for the little skinny guy with the slingshot, for only in Yahuwah do we have righteousness and strength. If He be for us who can be against us!”
We thank you all for “listening” to our “opinions” and as always you are free to disagree with any or all of this, for we are not the Teacher but only the Students.
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 02 May 2004 06:52:37 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 13:27:02
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brother Robert said: Since verse thirteen was sandwiched between two warnings about making covenants and included the First and second Commandments [encapsulated] we naturally assumed that this was all tied together. We also assumed that if we were to break down the local churches here that not too many people would care to make a covenant with us anyway so why worry about it.
Steve: Yes I, too, agree that it is all tied together but that this 34:13 was taken literally is demonstrated through out the Bible. I just discovered this instance where even AFTER the Monarchy was established in the promised land, Deut 34:13 had to be executed AGAIN! Check this out:
2 Chron 34:1 Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem one and thirty years. 2And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, and walked in the ways of David his father, and declined neither to the right hand, nor to the left. 3For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images. 4And they brake down the altars of Baalim in his presence; and the images, that were on high above them, he cut down; and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images, he brake in pieces, and made dust of them, and strowed it upon the graves of them that had sacrificed unto them. 5And he burnt the bones of the priests upon their altars, and cleansed Judah and Jerusalem. 6And so did he in the cities of Manasseh, and Ephraim, and Simeon, even unto Naphtali, with their mattocks round about. 7And when he had broken down the altars and the groves, and had beaten the graven images into powder, and cut down all the idols throughout all the land of Israel, he returned to Jerusalem.
That is some pretty descriptive language.
Also check this out from YHWH:
Ezekiel 6:13- Then shall ye know that I am YHWH, when their slain men shall be among their idols round about their altars, upon every high hill, in all the tops of the mountains, and under every green tree, and under every thick oak, the place where they did offer sweet savour to all their idols.
The command again in the Torah, with even more detail:
Deut 12:1 - These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which YHWH Elohim of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth. 2Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: 3And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.
The reason we cannot execute this is evidence of the exile. This verse from the Torah is key in understanding the exile:
Deut 30:1 - When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever YHWH your Elohim disperses you among the nations, 2and when you and your children return to YHWH your Elohim and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then YHWH your Elohim will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where He scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there YHWH your Elohim will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers
Once the exile is over it will be permanant:
The prophet Amos declares in 9:15 that the regathering of Israel will be permanent: "I will plant them upon their land, and they shall never again be plucked up out of the land which I have given them, says YHWH your Elohim".
Peace to all,
Steve
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2004 : 07:16:03
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Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
New light has been shed on the topic we are discussing: What is a god?
Recently we were attempting to rightly divide [dissect] the word of Truth given us by Yahushua in this verse of the Scripture:
Yahucahnan [John] 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
First, we rearranged the word [not adding or taking away from] that we might better see what it was saying.
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath, ye are of this world, I am from above, I am not of this world.
We then began looking up the words in this verse in Strong’s, Thayer’s and Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of American English and when we got to the words beneath and above we discovered something we found to be very interesting.
BENE'ATH, prep. 1. Under; lower in place, with something directly over or on… 2. Under, in a figurative sense; bearing heavy impositions, as taxes, or oppressive government.
Keeping in mind our discovery that "world" can mean the "orderly arrangement" of things, i.e. "the system" of government, take a long hard look at definition #2 above. We found Noah Webster’s example for number two to be extremely enlightening:
Our country sinks beneath the yoke.
As many of you may recall, this fits together well with other words our Anointed Counsellor spoke to us. [We endeavour to look at the Scripture the way a brother, Dan Israel, described it; a ten thousand piece puzzle; the cover has been thrown away (the overall picture almost never discussed), with handfuls of pieces thrown in that do not belong to it, and handfuls of pieces, that do belong to, it thrown out – this is what we are left to work with.]
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
It would certainly appear from His counseling that we have a choice whether to “take” His yoke or not, for what purpose would there be to give counselling if we had no choice?
We now continue with definitions of the word beneath, both as a preposition and then as an adverb.
3. Lower in rank, dignity or excellence… 4. Unworthy of; unbecoming; not equal to…
BENE'ATH, adv.In a lower place; as, the earth from beneath will be barren. 1. Below, as opposed to heaven, or to any superior region; as, in heaven above, or in earth beneath.
We again find Noah’s example of a superior region, intriguing. We see from his example that “heaven” is superior to, rather than higher than, the earth. But let us now compare “beneath” to “above”.
ABOVE', prep. 1. Literally, higher in place. 2. Figuratively, superior in any respect.
Did our Anointed Counsellor speak “literally” or “figuratively”, by His own admission? We believe He said He speaks in parables [figuratively] so that only those who were meant to understand would see what He was saying. But let us now continue with the definitions of above, again, now as an adverb.
ABOVE', adv. 1. Overhead; in a higher place. 2. Before.
Lights, bells and buzzers should have gone off in your mind when comparing this to all the other “puzzle pieces”; it did in ours.
Thou shalt have no other ‘elohiym [gods] before me.
Rewritten, with what we believe to be the correct translation, this verse reads…
Thou shalt have no other ‘elohiym [gods] above me.
This coincides perfectly with what we have been trying to show you concerning the “other gods”. If they do not bethink themselves “above”, i.e. they remain obedient to, Yahuwah’s Moral Law, the Ten Commandments, then they are indeed of Yahuwah. Of, naturally, meaning, created by, or, getting their authority from, the Superior Authority, Yahuwah, and thus not a threat to good works. All others, especially those forbidding His Ten Commandments, and those teaching that the Ten Commandments have been "done away with", are imposters and usurpers!
All things Lawful are mine...
As usual, you are free to disagree with any or all of our findings.
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 06 May 2004 08:54:29 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2004 : 08:35:47
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Greetings brother Robert and all,
One point I might add is that in the NT, as you well know, there is a story about the Virgin Mary who became inpregnated by the Holy Spirit
thus making Yahushua of Divine origin. Could not the references to above (divine) and below (earthly - born of an act between a man and a woman) directly apply to the verse you are quoting? I, for one, think that this should not be taken literally. But then if I go down this road I am faced with great resistence when I apply this allegory
to the resurrection (whooah, back Robert-James!).
Anyway, I have been conversing with some "learned" linguists on the subject of Elohim and am in the process of digesting their responses
to our on-going thread. These guys are a bit above my immediate understanding so I am having to do a bit of study just to digest their response. When I understand the fine linguistic points they are bringing up for myself, then I will pass the findings along. I don't just want to "clip and paste" on this one. One thing I will mention is that the scholars do not ever use a Strongs when dealing with Hebrew. It seems they use something called "The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament: The New Koehler/Baumgartner in English: 'Aleph - Heth by Ludwig Koehler, Walter Baumgartner, Johann Jakob Stamm, M.E.J. Richardson " when dealing with "exacting and demanding textual work". Sounds expensive? Yep. $600 for five printed volumes...but wait get it on CD Rom for only $150.00!! Imagine having to get this if we were in college!!
Peace to you all on this fine morning,
Steve
"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35, 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9) |
Edited by - BatKol on 06 May 2004 09:26:06 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 12:01:53
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Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, brothers and sisters of this ecclesia:
Peace be unto the house, and happy Sevening Day Remembrance to all the brethren, regardless of what day you 'Remember' it on; the important thing is that we 'Remember' it.
Last night we were talking to brother Marty [Cornerstone Foundation] and the topic of “apparent contradictions” in the Scripture came up, and we thought it appropriate to use our current topic of discussion to demonstrate why we use the phrase, “apparent contradictions”.
First we give you these verses of the Set Apart Scripture: [We humbly apologize for the “clip and paste”, it’s just that it is easier than typing all these references.]
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other ‘elohiym [gods] before [above] me.
There are apparently “other ‘elohiym [gods]”, for why else would this be the First Commandment of Yahuwah? Most will see the logic in this question, we believe.
Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are ‘elohiym [gods]; and all of you are children of the most High.
Since Yahuwah Himself said this, it must be True.
Yahushua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are ‘elohiym [gods]? If he called them ‘elohiym [gods], unto whom the word of ‘Elohiym [God] came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of ‘Elohiym [God]? Yahuchanan [John] 10:34-36
Here we see that Yahushua confirmed that indeed Yahuwah had said this.
1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called ‘elohiym [gods], whether in heaven or in earth, (there be ‘elohiym [gods] many and lords many,)
And the above from Shaul [Paul], of course, is yet another witness.
Next, we give you these verses and we shall read what, on the surface, appears to be a contradiction in the Word of Yahuwah, but let us examine it a bit deeper.
1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that Yahuwah is ’Elohiym [God], and that there is none else.
Yasha’yahu [Isaiah] 45:5a I am Yahuwah, and there is none else, there is [singular] no ‘Elohiym [God] beside me…
Yasha’yahu [Isaiah] 45:14c Surely ‘Elohiym [God] is in thee; and there is none else, there is no ‘Elohiym [God].
Yasha’yahu [Isaiah] 45:18 For thus saith Yahuwah that created the heavens; ’Elohiym [God] himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am Yahuwah; and there is none else.
Yasha’yahu [Isaiah] 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am 'Elohiym [God], and there is none else; I am ‘Elohiym [God], and there is none like me…
Now, there is something we ask you to take particular note of in the first group of verses, the ones that demonstrate that there are other ‘elohiym vs the second group, which tells us that there is no other ‘Elohiym. Notice any differences?
Let us point it out for you. In the first group ‘elohiym [gods] all begin with a lower case “g”, while in the second group ‘Elohiym [God] they all begin with a capital “G”. We can see this clearly in Yasha'yahu [Isaiah] 45:5a and Yahu'chanan [John] 10:34-36. This serves as a witness to what we have been saying, though there be ‘elohiym many [plural; who are the supreme beings over ONLY “their own" creations], there is [singular] only One ‘Elohiym [Supreme Being over all creation].
Thus Shaul [Paul] points this out in the rest of the verse found at 1 Corinthians 8:6…
But to us there is but one ‘Elohiym [God], the Father [Founder, i.e. Creator], of [by] whom are all things…
Thus we have demonstrated, at least in this one case, that there is no contradiction, for though there be many [plural] supreme beings there is [singular], above all, only One Supreme Being.
There may be some who will now jump up and explain to us that in the Paleo-hebrew there were no capital letters, and they would be correct in saying this. So how did the translators know where to put the capital “G” and where to put the lower case “g” since the Hebrew word for all these is the same word, to which we answer…INSPIRATION!
As is the case with all understanding we are given by the Set Apart Spirit of Yahuwah, you are free to disagree with any or all of what we have stated for the edification of the Body of Anointed, His Body Politic.
We thank you for your time, for it is one of the few things which one can never replace.
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 07 May 2004 15:34:28 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 18:48:06
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Greetings brother Robert and all reading this thread.
Thanks for spending the time on this most important topic. I am going to try not to be repetitive and address the heart of the matter.
You said:
Last night we were talking to brother Marty [Cornerstone Foundation] and the topic of “apparent contradictions” in the Scripture came up, and we thought it appropriate to use our current topic of discussion to demonstrate why we use the phrase, “apparent contradictions”.
Steve: I agree there are no contradictions when looking at the context and then once that is established, going to the dictionary.
Brother Robert: First we give you these verses of the Set Apart Scripture: [We humbly apologize for the “clip and paste”, it’s just that it is easier than typing all these references.]
Steve: We need more than just the verses you offer but the also the surrounding verses to give a contextual understanding. Once we have identified the context THEN it is time to go to the dictionary and see what definition applies. There are three diferent types of definitions for Elohim in the examples you give. They cannot be rolled all into one "e - all of the above" definition. Below I will show you a different picture when these items are taken into account. There are no contradictions when it comes to the use of Elohim when the context is understood.
Brother Robert:
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other ‘elohiym [gods] before [above] me.
There are apparently “other ‘elohiym [gods]”, for why else would this be the First Commandment of Yahuwah? Most will see the logic in this question, we believe.
Steve: What needs to be factored in to the verse above is the incident with the golden calf. This is the direct context for Moses having to get the second set of commands after he smashed the first. The errant Israelites were ‘seduced’ into setting up a false god before Moses and the Law showed up. Moses saw this and was disgusted that the Israelites would do such a thing after the amazing salvation from Egypt. He smashed the original tablets and went back and got a new set including more detail so there would be no confusion concerning the Law.. The second commandment is tied right in with the first in that one should not make any idols and worship them. This is in direct context to the golden calf as well. This golden calf was not an earthly ruler ‘elohiym’ as the word is used in Psalms 82 but rather a golden statue 'imaginary' elohim.
Exodus 32:4-6: And he (Aaron) received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a carving tool and after he had made it a molted calf: and they said these be thy Elohim O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
Israel has had a problem with literally worshiping false statutes and offering food to them etc. Jeroboam, the leader of the Northern Kingdom of Israel did the same thing in 1 Kings 12.28-32: As-taroth and B-al were false elohiym in the sense that they were not real, i.e. nothing. They were Exodus 32 type 'gods'.
YHWH is clear about the evils of worshiping imaginary 'gods' in the false manner of the heathen.
2 Kings 17:9-14:
And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against YHWH their Elohim and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city. And they set up images and asherim in every high hill and under every green tree. And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom YHWH carried away before them: and wrought wicked things to provoke YHWH to anger. For they served idols whereof YHWH had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.
These were not Ps 82 elohim but rather exodus 32 false idols, false imaginary 'gods' like the ones Paul speaks about in 1 Cor. You need the context to see the difference.
brother Robert: Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are ‘elohiym [gods]; and all of you are children of the most High
Steve: It is very important to know “who” is being spoken to here. What you consistently leave out are the beginning passages that give context to 'who' are the elohim 'who' are also children of the most High. Let’s take it from the top:
Psalm 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
First you must ask 'who' comprises the congregation of the mighty where YHWH Elohiym judges ‘among’. This is clearly speaking about the ruling body of Israel who decides on the day to day matters of YHWH’s chosen people. These are the lower case ‘gods’ of Ps 82 and John 10. These were not just everyday people, these were the appointed Israelites who seated the governmental body. The term applies to those in this position, not just any Israelites.
Psalm 82:2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
This clearly points to the governing body giving special consideration to someone’s status thus giving preference. As we discussed on the "person" thread before this is against Deut 10:17. The context here is the those ‘gods’, who are expected to judicate YHWH’s Law from the congregation of the mighty, are failing.
Psalm 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Psalms 82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid [them] out of the hand of the wicked
Here is what the ‘gods’ should be doing from the congregation of the mighty.
Psalms 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
Again back to speaking of the ‘gods’ who are breaching Deut 10:17 instead of judging righteously from the congregation of the mighty.
Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
Given the context above this verse is now brought into full focus. Who is “Ye”? The ‘gods’ who judge from the congregation of the mighty who are supposed to be judging from the Torah. Who are the children of the most High? The same ‘gods’ who were governmental Israelites seating the congregation of the mighty.
So the context is very important in understanding which application and definition is to be used when identifying Elohim. You will see a direct connection between the verse Yahushua quotes. Notice the “who” Yahushua is speaking to when he quotes Ps 82:6.
A clear picture emerges that is in exactly the same context that Asap spoke in. Israelites “gods” who seated the congregation of the mighty but were rendering false judgment and doing exactly the same sins as the Israelite ‘gods’ of Ps 82!
brother Robert you quote "Yahushua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are ‘elohiym [gods]? If he called them ‘elohiym [gods], unto whom the word of ‘Elohiym [God] came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of ‘Elohiym [God]? Yahuchanan [John] 10:34-36
Now let’s review the context. "Who" is Yahushua speaking to? Those ‘gods’ who were ready to pronounce a stoning on him for the wrongly accused crime of blasphemy. "Where":The Temple at the feast of Dedication. "Why":It is clear that the same problem with these ‘gods’ existed just as with the ‘gods’ who wrongly judged from the congregation of the mighty back in Ps 82. Here in John Yahushua is not talking to lay Israelites but rather those 'gods' of the Temple who, like their ancestors before them, are commiting the same sins when they are holding a position that should be watching out for Israel. Nothing new under the sun.
brother Robert: 1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called ‘elohiym [gods], whether in heaven or in earth, (there be ‘elohiym [gods] many and lords many,)
And the above from Shaul [Paul], of course, is yet another witness.
Steve: You are missing the context here. "Who" are the many that are CALLED gods and lords? Paul said these things were ‘called’ gods and lords, Paul did not say they were real but rather imaginary. See the context in which Paul is speaking of and you will see that these are non-existent imaginary ‘nothings’ which are meaningless. Check this out:.
1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.
1Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
"Who" are the false imaginary 'gods' which are nothing? The same imaginary type as in Exodus 32 (and elsewhere) NOT the type of 'gods' who are appointed Israelites and who seat the congregation of the mighty (Ps 82 type)!
brother Robert: Next, we give you these verses and we shall read what, on the surface, appears to be a contradiction in the Word of Yahuwah, but let us examine it a bit deeper.
Steve: There is no contradiction at all. The verses below speak of YHWH, the other verses that you used speak of 'elohim' in the sense of
a) false imaginary idols such as Paul is speaking about (Exodus 32 type) and
b) earthly Israelites who are 'gods' in the sense that they judge from the congregation of the mighty (Ps 82, John 10 type). When there is more than one definition for a word, such as elohim as used in three seperate situations listed in this post, one must look to the context to see what definition applies. The context of elohim in the verses below speak of YHWH Elohim, not Ps 82 or Exodus 32 type elohim.
1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that Yahuwah is ’Elohiym [God], and that there is none else.
Yasha’yahu [Isaiah] 45:5a I am Yahuwah, and there is none else, there is [singular] no ‘Elohiym [God] beside me…
Yasha’yahu [Isaiah] 45:14c Surely ‘Elohiym [God] is in thee; and there is none else, there is no ‘Elohiym [God].
Yasha’yahu [Isaiah] 45:18 For thus saith Yahuwah that created the heavens; ’Elohiym [God] himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am Yahuwah; and there is none else.
Yasha’yahu [Isaiah] 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am 'Elohiym [God], and there is none else; I am ‘Elohiym [God], and there is none like me…
These verses above do not use 'elohim' in the same sense as Ex 32 'god as false idol' nor in the same sense as the Ps 82 type Israelite or flesh man 'god' who sits at the congregation of the mighty. Of course you are also free to disagree but most who read this post will see that context is a very important factor in the equation. There are no contradictions when one looks first to context. Three different uses of the word "elohim" in three different contexts. Rightly divided by context one can then go to the dictionary and find the suitable definition.
Peace to you all,
Steve
"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9) |
Edited by - BatKol on 07 May 2004 22:35:25 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2004 : 07:24:26
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Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
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Logic 101 .. Do the concepts hold up?
