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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 13:04:02
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Livefree:
Does the text of HJR 192 of 1933 contain words indicating that "henceforth debt can be paid"?
Do you know where we can view that document to verify that?
Do you know by what means a debt can be "paid"?
Marty |
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Livefree
Advanced Member
USA
270 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 13:27:01
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Marty,
You can probably find a copy of HJR 192 in google.
No, the text of HJR 192 does not say "henceforth, debt can be paid." That is Eustace's interpretation of what it is saying.
Debts can be "paid" with legal tender, and 0NLY with legal tender. Discharge is little more complicated. It basically means to transfer to another form of debt, it doesn't pay the debt like legal tender does.
There is case law that explains what discharge means, but I don't have the the case with me. The court says "discharge" means to "transfer" to another form of debt. |
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DanielJacob
Advanced Member
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 16:28:51
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I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with the statement:
quote:
Debts can be "paid" with legal tender, and 0NLY with legal tender.
Debt can only be paid with lawful money! Legal tender can be anything that the government says it is, which in our present state is FRNs, notes, debt instruments, and therefore you can only discharge the debt with them and cannot pay the debt. This the underlying falacy of paying off the so-called national debt. There is not enough real money in the world to do that.
Peace to all. |
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Livefree
Advanced Member
USA
270 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 17:13:39
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| Yes, debts can only be paid with lawful money, but that is not what HJR 192 says, which is what I was referring to. Yes, legal tender includes FRNs, notes, and other debt instruments, and not necessarily "any" instrument you want to be legal tender. |
Edited by - Livefree on 21 Jan 2004 17:15:36 |
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DanielJacob
Advanced Member
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2004 : 00:07:04
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Legal Tender: 1. (medium of exchange) the kind of money, prescribed by law, that a creditor cannot refuse in discharge of a money obligation that does not specify other form of payment. E.g. "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues…" (31 USCA § 5103, as amended 1983). Mellinkoff's Dictionary of American Legal Usage, 1992. [emphasis mine]
As we can see from the above that "the kind of money, prescribed by law, that a creditor cannot refuse in discharge of a money obligation that does not specify other form of payment" would lend itself to just about anything that a legislature wanted to make money or legal tender. It just so happens that carrying pieces of paper, called notes, with denominational markings upon them is more convenient than, lets say potatoes, and I might add, a lot easier on the back. Potatoes however, if it were in the interest of the legislature, could just as easily be made legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues…. Notice also that the idea of allowing the contracting parties to fix the type of payment is also preserved. So, if you were contracting with someone you are well within your right to stipulate that payment be made in whatever tender you would accept. Gold, silver, potatoes, computer chips, potato chips, etc., etc. as long as both parties are agreed.
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Edited by - DanielJacob on 22 Jan 2004 00:09:51 |
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DerekR
Junior Member
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2004 : 09:41:42
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Where in our code is the "dollar" defined. I know it is a measure of Gold or Silver, but it has to have a better definitions somewhere.
If I have say $1000 in my checking account at the credit union, and I go to withdrawl $100, can I specify I dont want FRN, but silver or gold. And if I do, do they have the option to only pay me in FRN? |
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DanielJacob
Advanced Member
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2004 : 12:47:39
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quote:
Where in our code is the "dollar" defined. I know it is a measure of Gold or Silver, but it has to have a better definitions somewhere.
MONEY. Gold, silver, and some other less precious metals, in the progress of civilization and commerce, have become the common standards of value; in order to avoid the delay and inconvenience of regulating their weight and quality whenever passed, the governments of the civilized world have caused them to be manufactured in certain portions, and marked with a Stamp which attests their value; this is called money. 1 Inst. 207; 1 Hale's Hist. 188; 1 Pardess. n. 22; Dom. Lois civ. liv. prel. t. 3, s. 2, n. 6.
2. For many purposes, bank notes; (q.v.) 1 Y. & J, 380; 3 Mass. 405; 14 Mass. 122; 2 N. H. Rep. 333; 17 Mass. 560; 7 Cowen, 662; 4 Pick. 74; Bravt. 24; a check; 4 Bing. 179; S. C. 13 E. C. L. R. 295; and negotiable notes; 3 Mass. 405; will be so considered. To support a count for money had and received, the receipt by the defendant of bank notes, promissory notes: 3 Mass. 405; 3 Shepl. 285; 9 Pick. 93; John. 132; credit in account, in the books of a third person; 3 Campb. 199; or any chattel, is sufficient; 4 Pick. 71; 17 Mass. 560; and will be treated as money. See 7 Wend. 311; 8 Wend. 641; 7 S. & R. 246; 8 T. R. 687; 3 B. & P. 559; 1 Y. & J. 380.
3. The constitution of the United States has vested in congress the power "to coin money, and regulate the value thereof." Art. 1, s. 8.
4. By virtue of this constitutional authority, the following provisions have been enacted by congress.
1. Act of April 2, 1792, 1 Story's L. U. S. 229.
From Bouvier's Dictionary of Law, 1859.
It goes on to describe what make a dollar in silver, i.e. number of grains of silver, copper, etc. Also sets standards for gold coins. It was common place that silver was used as the medium of exchange in the common market place and gold was primarily used in commerce between nations.
quote:
If I have say $1000 in my checking account at the credit union, and I go to withdrawl $100, can I specify I dont want FRN, but silver or gold. And if I do, do they have the option to only pay me in FRN?
No, because you don't have 1000 dollars in your checking account. You have a credit transaction showing that you have on deposit 1000 units of debt instruments for the discharge of debt. Prior to 1965, you could walk into a bank and ask for silver coins in exchange for silver certificates that were the paper currency of the time. With the removal from the silver and gold standards we no longer have any lawful money in circulation. You can still obtain silver and gold coins from "dealers" or others that are willing to part with them for FRNs at the market value plus whatever profit the dealer wants to make. Personally, when I deal with any of the brothers or sisters I ask what they prefer, silver or FRNs.
Peace. |
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DerekR
Junior Member
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 11:59:33
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| If I were to trade all of my FRN for silver, could someone lawfully decline it as a method of payment? |
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Lewish
Advanced Member
uSA
496 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 12:35:57
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Derek,
Go read the U.S. Constitution to find your answer.
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DanielJacob
Advanced Member
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 13:28:47
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Derek,
Lewis perhaps can correct if I am wrong on this matter, but it is my understanding, that if you offer payment in the form of lawful money, i.e. silver coin, if the party to whom the debt is owed refuses your lawful offer, then your debt is desolved according to the law merchant. |
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Livefree
Advanced Member
USA
270 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 22:13:42
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I just found out that it is a felony for IRS to take gold because of the 'Par Value Modification Act'. They can, and will take your silver, but not your gold.
TITLE 22 > CHAPTER 7 > Sec. 286.
Notes on Sec. 286.
SOURCE
July 31, 1945, ch. 339, Sec. 2, 59 Stat. 512.
SHORT TITLE OF 1968 AMENDMENT
Section 1 of act July 31, 1945, provided: ''This act (enacting this subchapter and amending section 822a of former Title 31, Money and Finance) may be cited as the 'Bretton Woods Agreements Act'.''
PAR VALUE MODIFICATION
For Congressional direction that the Secretary of the Treasury maintain the value in terms of gold of the holdings in United States dollars of the International Monetary Fund and of the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development following the establishment of a par value of the dollar at $38 for a fine troy ounce of gold pursuant to the Par Value Modification Act and for the authorization of the appropriation necessary to provide such maintenance of value, see section 5152 of Title 31, Money and Finance
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Edited by - Livefree on 31 Jan 2004 22:17:55 |
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Livefree
Advanced Member
USA
270 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 12:36:05
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quote:
Originally posted by DerekR
Where in our code is the "dollar" defined. I know it is a measure of Gold or Silver, but it has to have a better definitions somewhere.
If I have say $1000 in my checking account at the credit union, and I go to withdrawl $100, can I specify I dont want FRN, but silver or gold. And if I do, do they have the option to only pay me in FRN?
Dollar: Unit of measure of weight of lawful money manufactured in a United States Mint.
The American Eagle Silver Proof 1 oz Coin is considered to be one Dollar by the US. Mint. It is worth 24 FRNS.
The 2003 American Eagle Silver Proof 1 oz Coin is only available in the one ounce size. The obverse design is Adolph A. Weinman's full-length figure of Liberty in full stride, enveloped in folds of the flag, with her right hand extended and branches of laurel and oak in her left. The reverse design, by United States Mint sculptor/engraver John Mercanti, features a heraldic eagle with shield, an olive branch in the right talon and arrows in the left. The 2003 American Eagle Silver Proof 1 oz Coin is packaged in a blue velvet, satin-lined presentation case and accompanied by a Certificate of Authenticity.
2003 American Eagle Silver Proof 1 oz Coin
Total Mintage: 750,000
Price: $ 24.00
Product is not available. |
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Lewish
Advanced Member
uSA
496 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 13:31:18
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This is last lawful definition of a dollar that I can find:
"In 1837, a new coinage law forced a change in the dollar’s composition. Its weight was reduced from 416 grains to 412.5, and its fineness was increased from 89.24 percent to 90.00 of silver."
Lewis |
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DerekR
Junior Member
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 23:37:05
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Yes Lewis, I could read the Constitution. And I have a few times. But as I have seen here, and elsewhere, what the Constitution says, doesnt always hold water.
Here is my confusing, and where terms are being contradicted.
Daniel - If as you say, according to the US Mint, that the 1oz Silver Proof is considered $1, then how can it cost 24 FRN. I have 1 FRN sitting in front of me, and it is clearly printed on the bottom ONE DOLLAR (not being rude, its in all caps).
I am trying to narrow down the contradiction of terms and such. If the definition by the Constitution of a dollar is so much silver, then I as the debtor have the right to request the form of payment from the "person" who owes the debt. But by our laws I have the obligation to accept any legal tender in the US that the US deems acceptable. But if the Consitution states that the only legal tender in the US is to be printed by a US mint, and the FRN's are printed by a privately owned (FED) bank. Then by contradiction to the Constitution, FRN are not legal tender, and I can request those proofs printed by the Mint.
Question, who mints our coins, i.e. quarters and nickels and such?
And is paying with those instead of FRN, paying the debt instead of discharging? |
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Livefree
Advanced Member
USA
270 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 16:59:15
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quote:
Originally posted by DerekR
Daniel - If as you say, according to the US Mint, that the 1oz Silver Proof is considered $1, then how can it cost 24 FRN. I have 1 FRN sitting in front of me, and it is clearly printed on the bottom ONE DOLLAR (not being rude, its in all caps).
An FRN is not a lawful dollar. They call FRNs "dollars" because at one time FRNs were lawful dollar silver certificates. You could go to any Federal Reserve Bank and redeem that one dollar silver certificate for a one dollar silver or gold coin. They were of equal value about 30 years ago. The Paper money today is worthless; silver and gold is the real McCoy.
The value of silver and gold is set by Congress. What forumla they used to come up with 24 FRNs for a lawful silver Dollar is a mystery to me.
quote:
I am trying to narrow down the contradiction of terms and such. If the definition by the Constitution of a dollar is so much silver, then I as the debtor have the right to request the form of payment from the "person" who owes the debt. But by our laws I have the obligation to accept any legal tender in the US that the US deems acceptable. But if the Consitution states that the only legal tender in the US is to be printed by a US mint, and the FRN's are printed by a privately owned (FED) bank. Then by contradiction to the Constitution, FRN are not legal tender, and I can request those proofs printed by the Mint.
I'm going to be learning how to make payment to the tax agencies in lawful money (gold) in the next week or so. I don't know how to do this right now, but if the debt gets discharged because of my lawful payment, I'll let you know.
quote:
Question, who mints our coins, i.e. quarters and nickels and such?
U.S. Mint does as far as I know.
quote:
And is paying with those instead of FRN, paying the debt instead of discharging?
Quarters, dimes, pennies, nickels are as worthless as FRNs. The only lawful money there is is silver and gold, which are also made at the U.S. Mint.
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Edited by - Livefree on 05 Feb 2004 17:00:19 |
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DanielJacob
Advanced Member
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 18:09:50
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| Ahh, just one point on the last post, there is no longer any lawful money minted by the U.S. Mint. That ended in 1964. The coins that are minted today are bullion coins containing 1 oz of silver or gold; not the same thing. |
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Livefree
Advanced Member
USA
270 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 18:44:16
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| So are you saying that bullion contains less gold or silver than the pre 1964 coins, or is bullion fake silver or gold? |
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Lewish
Advanced Member
uSA
496 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 19:37:32
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Alisa,
Daniel is saying that the coins being minted are not currency. They do contain approx. one ounce of either silver or gold, as the case may be, but, they are not "lawful" money. Congress has not authorized any lawful currency, read money, since 1933. But, you knew that already and were just testing us. Right?
Lewis |
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Livefree
Advanced Member
USA
270 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 22:46:06
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Hi Lewis,
Actually, I forgot all about bullion until Daniel mentioned it. The word 'bullion' sounds like something fake to me, so I don't consider it when I buy gold. But, we do need to know about bullion, just in case someone thinks it is more valuable, just because it's prettier. :-) |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2004 : 16:57:59
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Greetings All,
many believers and even some non-believers feel guilty for using Federal Reserve notes. "THEIR" statue law even states:
Federal Reserve notes are legal tender in the absence of objections thereto. MacLeod V. Hoover {1925 159 La. 244, 105 So. 305.}
One can abate their presumptious guilt asociations by stating, "I use Federal Reserve notes under protest". Just incase one finds himself in their COURTS, in chains. The NEW DEAL closed the gold window and made gold ownership by citizens illegal under the force of arms...which is a big no-no at Law and within international law.
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Taxes
