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amenyahu
Junior Member

United Kingdom
24 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  04:34:58  Show Profile
I guess this has already turned into a kind of battle. I didn't intend it to be so. Open discussion doesn't really need to be so confrontational. But I see that Caleb has condemned us all to hell.

Caleb, let's get a couple of things straight. Only a fool doesn't learn from a fight with an enemy. Only a fool would look at another person's position and renounce EVERY SINGLE PART OF IT without testing. You said that it was bad that I had to go to a christian website to find an answer to your question. Instead of simply taking the fact that I gave you an answer to your question and leaving it as that, you think it somehow discredits me. Understand this: even the pagan chinese people have wisdom in their sayings. Would it discredit me to use one of their sayings? Do I have to agree with everything they say to use it? Of course not. Wisdom is wisdom. Truth is truth. Even an enemy can be right. Even an idolator can be right. Figuring out the value of Pi from 1 Kings 7:23 has NOTHING to do with my faith [even if the answer comes from a christian], so it does little to me to use whatever I need to, in order to get the answer. I would use a Catholic Encyclopedia to find out the history of the "new testament". I would use a liberal, possibly agnostic/atheist encyclopedia like Brittanica.

In essence, all you had to do was take my answer to your question of Pi and leave it there.

Your exegesis of Daniel still has much to be desired. Please note that the "sevens" or "weeks" in Daniel are "weeks of years". There is a starting point and an ending point. The starting point is "From the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem". Jerusalem was standing at the time of Yeshua's birth and at the time of the start of his "ministry". It was already built. There is no word to rebuild Jerusalem at either of those times. I hope you are not taking a hyper-spiritual view of this which robs the text of its original meaning. The city of Jerusalem and the temple were not destroyed at any time of Yeshua's ministry, neither was it for many years afterwards (40 years). This doesn't coincide with any time period in the prophecy of Daniel. There was no war in Yeshua's days. In fact just reading the texts shows too many holes in your interpretation. Where did you get it from? I would recommend that you critically review this webpage:

www.messiahtruth.com/daniel9.html

Don't worry too much about where it's from. I don't. I may not agree with these people in everything, but if they have biblical truth, I take it. See if it adds up. That's all.

Also remember that I didn't "discredit" Daniel's use of "7" and "62". In fact, I uphold it. I keep the units as they are and not make it out to be "69" and thus robbing each unit of its significance. Each time unit (7 62 1) is distinct. Something happens in each unit. I take seriously every single word, even the abominations of desolations.

Now remember I asked you to give me proof of double prophecy in scripture. You have yet to do that. I asked you to do it in Tanakh. I meant within the range of Tanakh as the example I showed you. The prophecy was in Tanakh. The fulfillment was in Tanakh. Daniel's "abomination of desolation" wasn't fulfilled twice as you say. If you notice, one of the times was too early. That date in BCE was too early to be the 70th week. So it wasn't a fulfilment.

You said the following:

"What is very clear is that if you read a portion of scripture and assign only one meaning to it, or limit it to one application or fulfillment, you serve a very small god indeed."

The first part of what you said is true. A portion of scripture, especially the proverbs and the laws can be interpreted in more than one way. But prophecy predicts an event and then the event occurs. There is NO example that you have given me in Tanakh of dual or multiple fulfilments. That last bit that you say it quite disturbing. I'll show you why.

Now you as a messianic/christian (I don't know which) believe that Yeshua said "behold I come quickly". 2000 years have past. For a normal person 2000 years is NOT "quickly" or "soon". Yet you will hold to the fact that there was still some literal meaning in this, taking verses out of context like "a day to Yahweh is as a thousand years". You won't say that Yahweh is sleeping or that Yeshua is delaying. But then you will turn around to me and claim that I serve a small deity. [I'll try not to speak with too much anger.] How dare you limit the creator of the universe? He is the one who spoke the universe into existence and you dare to call him "small" because a prophecy may have one fulfilment? Get you proirities straight. Yahweh, in his grace, may limit himself to his word. He will never break it. His Torah is his word, HE WILL NEVER BREAK IT. But don't you ever call such a deity small because he doesn't fit into your scope of things. As long as Yahweh's word, his Torah, has application in our lives, he is always present. As long as nature is, he is. Even when the world dissolves, he will stand. So don't give me such NONSENSE that he is "small". His Torah declares that there is no elohim/deity/mighty one besides/in addition/apart from HIM (deut 4:35). The Torah declares the stipulations of a acceptable sacrifice which Yeshua doesn't fulfil.

Remember that before I had said NOTHING about Paul, although I could have. You think that he knows so much torah as though he has a level all by himself in Torah-wisdom. You accept his claim that he sat at the feet of Gameliel. If that is true, then he shouldn't twist scripture to his every whim. You will look at Deuteronomy 30 which says NOTHING about messiah. Nothing in the surrounding context talks of messiah. You will look at the fact that Paul abuses it to senseless proportions in Romans 10 to be talking about messiah. And then you will claim, just because you love Paul, that this passage is messianic or that it talks of messiah. That's not righteousness. That's not having your eyes open. Just how much do you worship this guy and accept his teachings over that of Tanakh itself? You say things like:

"That you are engaged in an exercise of the mind (or ego) and not of the heart is demonstrated when you set yourself above Paul in your understanding of Torah"

"Once you understand Torah to the degree that Paul did (which I doubt you or I ever will)"

I have to question who do you worship? Do you know me? Do you think I changed my beliefs overnight? Do you think I took a little look at Paul's writings and then spend the rest of my life reading and accepting anti-missionary teachings without even testing them? Do you think I knew nothing of Paul? I've learnt something. Let the word speak for itself. If I read Torah and it says something plain, then I take it. If it has deeper meaning, then that's for more study, but the plain meaning is the strongest. If I read someone like Paul (and I have studied Paul more than you know), and see that his teachings go against the plain reading of Tanakh, I will be hesitant to accept Paul's words. No, I would throw them away.

I must stop. I am getting way too angry about this. You don't have any idea of mine or these other guys' background. You don't know who we are. Yet because we disagree with you, you claim we don't understand as you do or we never have. I can only speak for myself. I would advise you that rather than turning this into personal insults and disrespectfulness, rather than "banding the heretics together", you just deal with the text and leave the personal comments to yourself. Then there is more possibility of a friendly and open discussion where we can all grow together towards THE TRUTH, because that's all that matters. I personally have a heart to know and love YHWH, despite my failings. But I will go for his truth, whether it includes Yeshua or not. Yahweh is the Mighty One of Truth. I will turn to him.
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amenyahu
Junior Member

United Kingdom
24 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  05:16:38  Show Profile
Oh yeah, one more thing.

Caleb, you seem to have taken it upon yourself to determine the "heart condition" of me, atara, and BatKol. Why? Do you know what I want? Do you know what my earnest desire is? Do you know that of atara or batkol, or danieljacob or robert-james? Are robert-james and danieljacob good, do they have good hearts, because they agree with you when it comes to Yeshua, or the validity of the "nt"? Are batkol, atara, and I full of badness, trying to fake spirituality because we don't agree with accepting Yeshua as Messiah and the validity of the "nt"? Here's an example:

"Were you all serious about understanding and observing Torah, I would not spend my time in such a debate, for the Torah would push you straight into the arms of Messiah."

I think that is the conclusion of your whole point of view. If a person agrees with you about this "messiah", then they are seriously seeking to understand and observe torah. If not, then they aren't. Now through my own study I see there are messianic prophecies to be fulfilled. I'd only know who the messiah is by seeing if these prophecies come to pass. If they don't, then Torah only teaches me to serve and love Yahweh, not to accept anybody who comes along fulfilling some, but not all, of the prophecies. Now because of that viewpoint, will you condemn my heart as wrong? That I do not understand Torah? Is my understanding and acceptance of Paul imperative to my salvation? Does my acceptance of him make me good and my not accepting him make me bad? In a lot of ways it seems that those who support these views are no better than Talmudists who would have us study the "oral law" to understand the written. To them, the written alone will not do, even though David did say (as atara pointed out) that the Torah is perfect/complete. According to you the written alone will not do because we need Yeshua and Paul. What does Yahweh require of me (Micah 6:6-8)?

I'll sum up by this statement.

And now, Israel, what doth YHWH your Mighty One require of you, but to fear YHWH your Mighty One, to walk in all His ways, and to love Him, and to serve YHWH your Mighty One with all thy heart and with all thy soul; to keep the commandments of YHWH and his statutes, which I am commanding you today for your good? Deut 10:12,13.
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  08:59:35  Show Profile
Greetings. May we all agree that the Law {torah} needs to be living in us? Yes.
Fact, the posters...Daniel, Caleb, Robert-James have no permission slips to travel about in their modern auto's. YHWH-Yahushua [The Governor of the Commonwealth of Israel} give their citizens the right to be about Kingdom business. We don't carry a fake i.d. with an ALL CAP name. Reason? YHWH formed Us, not the beast system.
Question, do the torah followers only, bend the rules of Law, and law, and ask the govt. permission to drive govt. owned vehicles? And either bear false witness to their real identity {operating as a mini-corporation, dead in law fiction, or as yet, not able to come out of Babylon? The captivity is over girls, have the baby and join Us. If YHWH is your husband, the idea here is to have the promised son. Not stay bit-hing and overheated. as many pregnant women do before their travail comes.
For, IF you have no tags, license and insurance {all from the beast system, then we We will move on to other things that will be overcome.
BatKol-amenyahu, have a response for Us??????
The Living Word begats, as YHWH is Spirit. Hello?
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amenyahu
Junior Member

United Kingdom
24 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  09:16:29  Show Profile
Yes, I have a response.

Try speaking clearly. [this is not meant to be an insult] Do you speak normal english? Are you spanish or something? I'm not understanding all that you are saying. Maybe you or someone else can translate. I try to speak clearly. The tanakh is also clear. If you have a question, maybe you could make it clear because I have no idea what you are talking about.

There are two things that you say that do have significance to me. Firstly your question.

"May we all agree that the Law {torah} needs to be living in us?"

What do you mean? If you mean we should all obey the Torah and make it an active part of our lives by performing the things that it says that we should do then the answer to your question is yes. Is it possible that you could say things a bit simpler, so I don't have to guess what you mean.

You also make a statement.

"YHWH-Yahushua [The Governor of the Commonwealth of Israel}"

That statement is questionable. I don't serve anyone called "YHWH-Yahushua". The Tanakh says that the name of the one I serve is YHWH. He is the King of Israel (Isaiah 44:6). He said that YHWH is his name forever, thus he ain't gonna change it or lengthen it to "YHWH-Yahushua". Don't get me wrong, he does have other titles like YHWH of hosts (Tzebaoth) or YHWH Mighty One (Elohim). As far as the tanakh is concerned, his name is YHWH.

As I say, maybe you can clarify your question.
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  09:43:35  Show Profile
Greetings and visitations from YHWH-El-ElYon and Myself, Robert. ElElyon is how YHWH operates among the nations. Duh. Has something to do with Melchisedec, but as you say, you are dull of hearing and seeing...circumcision of the heart, dear fellow.
Do you present your{self} to the govt. of men...as your name being spelled in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS? Or, as your Dad gave your name to you...with the first letter capitalized and the rest of the letters lower cased? Simple stuff, a child can understand.
All govt. created i.d.'s have the govt. names of PERSONS spelled in ALL CAPS. They are the creators of this identity image. The ALL CAP obey's man's laws. YHWH's children obey YHWH's Laws. Whose law are you obeying? My presumption is that you are a PRETENDER to serve YHWH. And you are fearful of Babylon, much more so, than you are 'fearful' of YHWH. My presumption stands, unless rebutted by Truth. Do you have a DRIVERS LICENSE? You obey man, to the very insult of obeying YHWH. YHWH dosen't take kindly to FICTIONS as children. FICTIONS do not have the breath of Life in them. YHWH breathed into Adam man. Yahushua breathed into His own.
Answer? Are you a FICTION of your own mind?
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  10:51:11  Show Profile
Shalom All,

Caleb: The simple answer to your Lev. 17 question is that the priests offered blood sacrifices for the sins of the entire nation, and even the poor were covered by these.

BatKol: Nice evasiveness...you ignore the plain scripture that clearly says a fine flour offering with NO BLOOD can atone for sin. You ignored the fact that YHWH was able to forgive Nineveh without blood. You accuse me of dead-church doctrines, yet you hold fast to the error of Paul's statement. I plainly showed that there IS forgiveness without the shedding of blood in Torah and TaNaCK. You claim: I too am willing to question the validity of everything, but once something shows itself to be true I change my thinking to fit it, rather than the other way around... Oh really?? I just gave you a few examples of where forgiveness of sin occurred without blood. I can give you many more.

Caleb: The sacrificial system was complex, and with no one practicing it for over 1900 years we are all a bit rusty on this subject. The blood sacrifice must be viewed from the perspective of the whole. You cannot draw a meaningful conclusion by isolating one sacrificial instruction.

BatKol: Oh.. but Paul CAN draw a meaningful conclusion from taking one isolated, half part of a verse out of context to build a whole blood cult religion on? The pattern again and again through out scripture is that YHWH gave forgiveness many times in TaNaCK with out blood. THis pattern is not one isolated incident. You accuse me of main-stream church doctrine while defending the doctrine of that very church. You dance around and avoid the heart of the matter: that there IS forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood. I gave you an example in Torah and others from TaNaCK. I understand that for you to consider the implications of the point I am trying to make, would be akin to having to re-work your whole perception of sin and atonement. YHWH says: Return to me and I will return to you.. NO blood needed!!

Caleb: Do you keep the feasts outlined in Leviticus 23? Yahweh has not left himself without a witness.

BatKol: Yes, I do.

Caleb: If you and Atarah are going to quote Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 in an attempt to discredit the NT, then please stop quoting anything out of Joshua or beyond. In a world where everyone thinks they can have their cake and eat it too, I call this hypocrisy for what it is every time I see it. You two admit that you do not follow Torah instructions regarding the forgiveness of sin, but appeal to later books instead (Hosea and Ezekiel).

BatKol: The whole of scripture for me is TaNaCK. Lev 26, Deut 28 is a direct link to the reason for why there is no temple, why we are in bondage. What I reject are the NT and Talmud distortions.


Robert-James said: Daniel, Caleb, Robert-James have no permission slips to travel about in their modern auto's. YHWH-Yahushua [The Governor of the Commonwealth of Israel} give their citizens the right to be about Kingdom business. We don't carry a fake i.d. with an ALL CAP name.

BatKol: How about a fake ALL CAP contract with that STATE power company?? Somehow that is OK? If you are going to judge others by the ALL CAP contract, why not look at yourself? How about getting that CONTRACT out of your own eye, before you start judging others with your pet doctrine?

Robert-James: Question, do the torah followers only, bend the rules of Law, and law, and ask the govt. permission to drive govt. owned vehicles?

BatKol: Again, you selectively pick and choose which ALL CAP contracts are a sin. Show me where it is a breach of Torah to have a DL, especially if we are subject to Lev 26, Duet 28 punishments! You are in denial that YOU are subject to the bondage of Lev 26, Deut 28. You are forced to go into "the MATRIX" economy, with it's fake FRNs to earn a living to buy your CONSUMER foods to feed you and yours... welcome to the BONDAGE, brethren. Humbling is it not?

Robert-James: And either bear false witness to their real identity {operating as a mini-corporation, dead in law fiction, or as yet, not able to come out of Babylon?

BatKol: Again, try measuring yourself to your own claims. If you believe in your ALL CAP gospel,
why are you "bearing false witness" operating as a dead LEGAL FICTION with the STATE power company? Read the POWER contract that holds your signature. This service is for RESIDENTS..You renew this contract every month by going down and paying it. Hold the unopened bill up to the light all you want. Your physical act paying the bill renews the contract month by month. It is prima face evidence that you operate as a LEGAL FICTION and are engaged in contracts with "THE BEAST"... humbling is it not?

For all of your maneuvering, you have not shown me that you are free from the promised bondage of Lev 26, Deut 28. What is more, when you measure yourself to your own claims about CONTRACTS, you are shown to be cherry-picking... and hypocritical.

BK
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atarah1
Regular Member

Antigua and Barbuda
27 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  11:51:55  Show Profile
BK said: "You are forced to go into "the MATRIX" economy, with it's fake FRNs to earn a living to buy your CONSUMER foods to feed you and yours... welcome to the BONDAGE, brethren. Humbling is it not?"

Yes it is humbling. Very much so. I think the only way out is by beginning a walk in Torah, and learning the lessons found by so doing. I too keep the Feasts. Actually I celebrate them, because to truly "keep" the 3 pilgrim feasts means to go to the place with YHWH's name, which was Jerusalem at one time, and shall be again. So in the meantime, I'm rehearsing those pilgrim Feasts and also honoring the other Moedim (Appointed Times).

Regarding the funny money, I'm not sure if Robert-James understands that carrying even one 1 dollar bill (will all of the occultic stuff on it) shows that he is contracting with the beast. If you use the beast's money, you are a servant of the beast. That means "slave". I am trusting that as YHWH shows me more and more how to follow the Torah to the best of my ability, He will begin to free me more and more from the slavery.

The Israelites who were in bondage in Egypt were set free by YHWH so that they could leave and keep the Appointed Times. It is presumed that while they were in bondage they were not even permitted to keep the weekly Shabbat, and yet YHWH released them anyway. We need to be rehearsing and practicing the Torah and having a heart that yearns for the freedom to be able to observe His WHOLE Torah. If our hearts and actions are right, He will free us once again as He has promised.


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Surveyor
Regular Member

USA
31 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  12:53:28  Show Profile  Visit Surveyor's Homepage
Batkol
Was the intent of your original post to seek for answers to the questions you first raised?
This seems like a fair question based on what followed. It seems your original proposal
was bated and at least a little misleading. You started off by saying that you were
“interested in knowing if this disconnecting from ‘THE BEAST’ can be done using only
the first five books of the Bible.” Then you support your proposal and impose a
conclusion on the forum that you seemed to have arrived at based on Matthew 5:17-18.
You stated, “If not a jot or tittle will be changed from the Torah, then the answer of
freedom must be containied within it.”
response

If my observations are out of line, then I apologize. You may believe what you will and I
will not judge you for it. Still your beliefs about the New Testament does not exclude its
relevancy in a discussion of the Torah. Nor can you conceal the virtue of the precepts
taught therein by associating them with “a compilation of pagan godman myths.”

You have proof? List the facts of which you have personal knowledge. It seems to
me that most people when it comes to religion start out with a handed down
package. But there comes a time when we are called upon to give an account for
what we believe. That is when most of us got into trouble not only with others but
most of all with ourselves.

As a nation, Judah seems to be a broken house. How would you put it back together using only the Torah.

Jesus understood that it was a broken house 2000 years ago and pointed out the hypocrisy of the nation claiming to live by the Torah. So did Paul. Neither Jesus nor Paul taught against the precepts of the law, but applied the precepts of the law to the heart.
Clarence
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Lewish
Advanced Member

uSA
496 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  13:17:36  Show Profile
Amenyhu,

Since when is 1 Kings 7:23 the definition of Pi? I can't seem to find Pi mentioned anywhere in either the Hebrew or the Aramaic or the English versions of the Bible. Did I miss something? Is something not included in the copies that I have? Are the books which I know as the Old Testament, books about faith and belief, or are they books of mathematics? They can not be both. There is no faith or belief in science.

Just wondering,

Lewis
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  13:26:56  Show Profile
Robert-James says: Greetings and visitations from YHWH-El-ElYon and Myself, Robert.

BatKol: Sir, you are not qualified to speak for YHWH, nor do you have the authority.. (here is good place for you to quote the NT back at me)

Robert-James: Do you present your{self} to the govt. of men...as your name being spelled in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS? Or, as your Dad gave your name to you...with the first letter capitalized and the rest of the letters lower cased? Simple stuff, a child can understand.

BatKol: Again, your hypocracy is mind-blowing. You rant on and on about the ALL CAP doctrine, while YOU, YOURSELF engage in an ALL CAP power contract with THE BEAST.. You pay the bill, you renew the contract.. This contract which holds your signature is prima facie evidence that YOU are a RESIDENT, PERSON, etc. Simple stuff, a child can understand.

Robert-James: All govt. created i.d.'s have the govt. names of PERSONS spelled in ALL CAPS. They are the creators of this identity image. The ALL CAP obey's man's laws.

BatKol: How about STATE contracts? Newsflash! That STATE power account you maintain is in ALL CAPS.
And, as you agreed to do in your contract, you pay this bill which keeps the account active. The STATE created this ALL CAP image for you in the contract you signed. And you perform your part of the contract, obeying man's law of contracts.

Robert-James: YHWH's children obey YHWH's Laws.

BatKol: Weather we obey or not.. all of this ALL CAP bondage is fulfillment of Deut 28, Lev 26.

Robert-James: Whose law are you obeying? My presumption is that you are a PRETENDER to serve YHWH.

BatKol: Ask yourself this same question. My presumption is that you are engaging in an ALL CAP contract for your STATE power. Am I wrong?? Are you willing to judge yourself by the same measure you judge others in this ALL CAP contract doctrine?? If you honestly took a look at yourself, you would see egg on your face with this doctrine of yours. If you really believed this stuff you would march down to the POWER COMPANY and refuse to do business with them and tell them, "I am not to make CONTRACTS with the STATE"...

Robert-James: Do you have a DRIVERS LICENSE? You obey man, to the very insult of obeying YHWH. YHWH dosen't take kindly to FICTIONS as children. FICTIONS do not have the breath of Life in them.

BatKol: Do you have a STATE POWER CONTRACT? You obey man, to the very contradiction of your ranting. If YHWH does not take kindly to FICTIONS, then why are you engaging in FICTION with the STATE power company? By your own words, FICTIONS do not have the breath of life. Are you saying that you don't have the breath of life when you hold yourself to the same judgement you put on others??

Robert-James: Are you a FICTION of your own mind?

BatKol: I willfuly engage in the use of FICTION while being subject to the punishments of Lev 26 and Deut 28. You also willfuly engage in FICTION but are in denial.

If my presumptions are incorrect that you maintain an active STATE power contract then I will
post an appology.

BK
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atarah1
Regular Member

Antigua and Barbuda
27 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  13:42:29  Show Profile
What about a telephone? Isn't that under FCC? What about internet service? Isn't that a contract of obedience to the Telecommunications Act? Maybe I'm missing Robert-James' point.

I assume that it was him using the internet to post his message and not a ghost writer. Therefore, he is in compliance with the FCC no? To whom you obey, you are the servant of, no? If I'm mistooken, please show how.

Meanwhile, I will keep looking to the Torah for the way out of bondage. It may take a lifetime, but I'm willing to stay the course.

Shalom to all who seek His will and His righteousness,
atarah1


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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  13:54:47  Show Profile
Shalom Clarence,
Thanks for your response. Yes, my original intention was to study this bondage as it relates to Torah. I reference the NT expression, "not a jot or tittle" because this is a common ground that I thought I could meet on with those who post here. Aside from all of this debate I still think it is a relevant starting point. I thought it would be a nice foundation. However, this original idea has been taken over by this current series of debates. And I have no problem defending my beliefs. What I do have a problem with is those who judge others by ALL CAP contracts while engaging in them themselves. This is just plain silly. I am starting to wonder if my original study proposal is even possible at this point.

I can give you a list of direct pagan connections in the NT but I suspect you probably have seen these connection. My big issue with the NT is it offers a different salvation program than the one offered by YHWH... return to me and I will return to you. Nobody can die for my sins, I must account for them myself. Moses offered himself up as a sacrifice on Sinai for the Israelites and YHWH refused him and said each must account for their own sins. Thankfully for us, YHWH forgave Israel. Thankfully for us He still forgives sin.

BK
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  14:17:04  Show Profile
BatKol is a lieing wonder of amazement. I do not hand a STATE trooper an electric bill to identify myself. My telephone service and internet provider accept prepaid charges, in cash, and are not connected to an ALL CAP fiction.
I absolutely do not keep an active contract with the electric co, a co-op at that.
If you must stay subject to Babylon and the ALL CAP fiction, our sympathies are with you. Many are called, few are choosen. Please forgive any condemnation felt. If you can't come out of "Her", your not the One{s}.
Besides, you two Judiaizers never answer a direct question, so it is very hard to give any constructive advise, or share what happens with Us, who have left Babylon.
One need not be RESIDENT of A STATE for the power to be turned on. By the way, the local power company is self-owned, not STATE owned.
Seems I did have a LEGAL FICTION marriage, and that too must go. Yahuweh is a jealous creator.
All who ponder the ALL CAP fiction, along with scripture, one's own "identity", will be amazed at what they find. {Amaze-amazement used twice for reasons associated with Daniel 9th chapter}. The abomination set up in the "temple". Enough said, for Yahushua did not explain "it" either. Interesting atarah1 quotes psalm 23...the death walk. Someday you will understand the 24th psalm. Meanwhile keep your law during the death march. We walk by Faith.
I raised a family attending the feasts 3 times a year. The sacred names also. All the basic Laws, i.e. food....not perfectly at all, mind you, but with good intentions. 18 years of feasts. And none of it is enough, without forgiveness working through the atonement provided by the shed blood of the Lamb. Mosaiac Law was without much mercy. Not a fun place to dwell. Forgiveness, grace, and Truth come through Yahushua's message. Forgive your enemies was the New Testament Truth that was lacking before haYahushua. Now, there is no excuse!
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atarah1
Regular Member

Antigua and Barbuda
27 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  15:14:38  Show Profile
Robert-James: "And none of it is enough, without forgiveness working through the atonement provided by the shed blood of the Lamb. Mosaiac Law was without much mercy."

I thought I had covered that about the claim of atonement through the Passover lamb. Maybe you responded and I missed it. If so, will you please show me again in the Torah how the Passover lamb provided atonment?

As to no mercy in the Torah... that is just simply a non-truth. Some might call it a lie. Here is the proof:

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. - Exodus 20:6

Keeping MERCY FOR THOUSANDS, FORGIVING INIQUITY AND TRANSGRESSION AND SIN, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. - Exodus 34:7

YHWH is LONGSUFFERING, AND OF GREAT MERCY, FORGIVING INIQUITY AND TRANSGRESSION, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now. And YHWH said, I HAVE PARDONED ACCORDING TO THY WORD.
Numbers 14:18-20

But if from thence thou shalt seek YHWH thy Elohim, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to YHWH thy Elohim, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For YHWH thy Elohim is a MERCIFUL El;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
Deuteronomy 4:29-31

Robert-James, you have born false witness against the word of YHWH! You should be ashamed, but I doubt you will be.

Robert-James, you are bearing false witness against me for calling me a "Judaizer". You have defamed me and I deserve a retraction from you (doubt I'll get one though). I am not into Judaism in any of it's forms, nor do I promote it in ANY way. I am not a Jew, nor do I desire to become one, nor do I believe YHWH requires anyone to become one to be a part of Israel. Your contempt of YHWH's Torah is astounding and you will be called to account for it, trust me!

Shalom to all who love YHWH and His perfect Torah,
atarah1

The Death Walk Psalm?

YHWH is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of YHWH for ever.

(if that's the death walk, I'll take it and I'll dwell in His house forever....gladly!)

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atarah1
Regular Member

Antigua and Barbuda
27 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  15:39:51  Show Profile
By the way, I know of no internet ISP that doesn't require a signature agreeing to the terms of service, which includes compliance with FCC regulations. Same thing with telephone service. Merely by using the phone and paying the bill, you have entered into contract with the FEDERAL government. You do business with a private company in getting power? Bull! No corporation is private as you no doubt know. They are public corporations which are created by the state. The state owns or controls that which it creates. You are in a contractual relationship with the state. You exchange federal reserve notes? You mean those things with the backing of the corporate US? By doing so you are in agreement with the Federal Reserve and acknowledge their funny paper as "legal tender". Maybe you don't see it, but it's crystal clear to me.

Robert-James said: Meanwhile keep your law during the death march.

It's not my law. It's YHWH's law.

Know that YHWH will hold you accountable for your defamation of His character and His word.

Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the torah, even his prayer shall be abomination.

It's hard to argue with ignorance or rebellion, so I won't try anymore. Believe what you will. Your belief has no bearing on my status whatsoever.

atarah1

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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  18:07:31  Show Profile
Robert-James said: I absolutely do not keep an active contract with the electric co, a co-op at that.

BatKol: And you call me a liar????? OK. Replace the word ELECTRIC COMPANY with CO-OP. Either way these are STATE regulated monopolies which require a contract. You claim you do not have an active account? Could you share with us, then, how you are able to get power without a power contract? I think you are bluffing here....Unless you are using solar or battery power, it seems to me you are contracting with one of these STATE regulated monopolies. If you are receiving power then your account is active. That account is secured by a signature on a contract wherein if you do not abide by the terms of the contract, your account is terminated. Yet you claim that you are able to get power with out maintaining an active account...Who is the liar, here?

Robert-James: I do not hand a STATE trooper an electric bill to identify myself.

BatKol: Who said anything about STATE troopers? You are willfully engaged in a LEGAL FICTION contract by a STATE regulated monopoly. You pay the bill, the ALL CAP account is active..So simple a child can understand it....

Please share with us (if it is true) how you were able to get a power with out signing a contract and, on top of that, how you are able to recieve power from the monopoly-franchise CO-OP by not maintaining an active account, i.e paying the bill..

BK
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Lewish
Advanced Member

uSA
496 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  19:44:45  Show Profile
Hey BatKol,

I sorta hate to get in the middle of such a fine spitting match, but did you ever consider that some people don't have electric lines to their house, but do have telephone lines. I personally know 2 families where this is the case. In the first case, it is 5 miles to the closest power pole. Their electricity comes from solar cells and a diesel generator. In the second family's case, the power pole is a mile away and the power company wanted $40,000 to take power back to their house. They live with a diesel generator for electricity which charges up batteries which run inverters to supply what electricity they need. They have a phone in the house. We buried 4500 feet of phone line from the highway back to their house so that they could have phone service. The phone company wanted $5000 to lay the line, so we did ourselves.

Just a few thoughts for people to consider.

Lewis
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  20:03:53  Show Profile
I said you were Judiaziers simply because you talk, think, and deny The firstborn son Yahushua The messiah. Maybe your just anti-messiah's. Yahuweh made many covenants, not just the 3rd day Law giving wedding ceremony. Which Israelites broke. How do you as individual sinners {lawbreakers} expect to get back in? Who is your High Priest??? Yahushua, if you care, was physically born on the Day of Atonement. {Do your own homework}. So when his blood was shed as a covering for the sins of greater Israel, as even stated by the High Priest of that day,...for this very cause was he born...on the Day of Atonement. Oh yes, he was also the Firstfruit offered at passover.
The power was turned on years ago, by ROBERT JAMES LASTNAME, and he is dead now, though I do pay the bill, for the use. You are right, the next move, I will not be able to hook up to the grid without straightening out the LEGAL FICTION name, if that is possible. Some men have.
After reading your thoughts, I say there is no way for you all to safely leave Babylon. Stay put. If you take the prophets for truth bearers, your Moses did say you'd hear one, hopefully it is Yeremiah and the prophecy that YHWH would make a new covenant with the House of Israel and Judah. Though maybe the prophet was Isaiah, though maybe the prophet was Yahushua. He was right on when he stated that not one stone would be left of the old temple in Yerusalem. History records the Roman soldiers left not even one stone standing. {Soldiers thought gold was melted by the fire, and greed motivated the destruction as prophesised}. He also prophesised that on the third Day he'd arise, as Hosea mentioned...6:1. Paul and John and James and others laid the foundation that messiah is to be formed in us. You are so busy looking at the man, you missed the greatest message ever. Moses, pales in comparison. In fact, Moses veiled the whole plan, on orders. By the Way, there is a Court in heaven where reality exists, and the sacrifical offering of the Lamb was accepted and recorded. Far surpassing the killing of a goat. But if you don't see natural things, {ALL CAP FICTIONS} you will never receive heavenly things. It is a whole nother language and level. Yahushua said to follow the man bearing a pitcher of water, where you will find a room {upper} fully furnished. A new understanding of passover. And how he longed to have that supper with His Friends.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  20:15:40  Show Profile
Lewish,
Please get in the middle. I have considered the solar power posibility for Robert-James, but I have personal knowledge that he does maintain an active account with the CO-OP. I am just floored on how he makes such statements about CAP MAN CONTRACTS when he himself forks over the required FRN's to "keep the lights on" like most everybody else. Many people marvel over this blatent contradiction. WHo is kidding who? You pay the bill on a CAPMAN account, then you maintain an active CAPMAN account and enjoy the benefits of your purchase. Period.

BK
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doer
Advanced Member

uSA
198 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  20:55:15  Show Profile
Lewis,

You rightly note this to be "a fine spitting match." Perhaps it has gone even further than that, and become a "pissing match." It all boils down to, "My religion is better than your religion." (S-A-Y-Y-Y-Y – isn’t that what many, if not most, wars are about?)

When debates get emotional, this is the surest sign that EGO is in charge. When EGO is in charge, then our Creator is not. End of story.

This has become an exercise in futility, and has gone far afield of the original intent of this particular Forum. We need to gather our wits and begin afresh. I am really interested in what the TRUE PATH is all about. I really want to know HOW TO GET BACK HOME. EVERY teaching which has lasted longer than a thousand years, has something to offer in this area. Only Truth stands the test of time -- even when it is hidden in religion.

When our BELIEFS are challenged, it is our SACRED DUTY to look at them very closely (especially if we feel attacked, violated, insulted, etc.) Then we can try to EXPLAIN those beliefs to the other person. This is done with a humble attitude of wanting to know the Truth. In so explaining, we come to a better understanding of our own position, many insights are discovered along the way, and we see our path more clearly.

But it must all come from the heart. Verses and chapters are dead, if the thoughts therein are not reflected in living form. I do not want to hear your verses and chapters. They have no meaning if you cannot be a LIVING EXAMPLE of their Truths. This rancorous exchange does NOTHING to promote a particular viewpoint -- and far less to help reveal the Truth. Attacks only set the other person’s beliefs in concrete.

Beliefs, opinions , doctrines, ideologies, dogmas, convictions, etc., all “serve in a pinch.” But they are NOT the Truth. The Truth is what we LIVE, and that explains why we do not usually live by our BELIEFS. This is called hypocrisy.

If the other person does not see my viewpoint (or worse yet, WILL NOT see) then it is their deficiency. It is my duty to make every effort to COMMUNICATE, but I can only speak to people who DESIRE to learn. Those that are set in their ways and only want to promote their own “hidden agenda” (read: EGO), are not interested in Truth. As far as I am concerned, they can all go to the pissing match.

Be Well,
Doer
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