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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 06:55:21
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Greetings and salutations, brother Rick:
Peace be unto you and yours.
Was your answer, The right of governing created beings is the prerogative of the Creator?
You're right, we couldn't miss it...LOL
However, with all due respect, the question was: "Does a moral being need governing?"
First, it was a qualified question; “Does a moral being need governing?”
2. Natural liberty, consists in the power of acting as one thinks fit, without any restraint or control, except from the laws of nature [and Nature's God]. It is a state of exemption from the control of others, and from positive laws and the institutions of social life. This liberty is abridged by the establishment of government.
All things Lawful are mine, but all things are not expedient: all things Lawful are mine, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
If one is a “moral being” he is self-restrained by the Law of Nature and Nature’s God. The Law of Nature is defined by Noah Webster (c. 1825) as:
3. Law of nature, is a rule of conduct arising out of the natural relations of human beings established by the Creator, and existing prior to any positive precept. Thus it is a law of nature, that one man should not injure another, and murder and fraud would be crimes, independent of any prohibition from a supreme power.
By establishing that he is a “moral being” we know, by definition, that he obeys, to the best of his ability and understanding of the spirit in which they were intended, the Ten Commandments, the Creator’s Eternal Moral Law. This is the primary condition, which allows us to be fellowcitizens of the commonwealth of Yisra’el [self-governing sovereigns of God], if we so desire (free will).
“Why (she thought), when I am a little older, Pa and Ma will stop telling me what to do, and there isn't anyone else who has a right to give me orders. I will have to make myself be good.
Her whole mind seemed to be lighted up by that thought.
This is what it means to be free. It means, you have to be good. 'Our father's God, author of liberty’ – The laws of Nature and of Nature's God endow you with a right to life and liberty. Then you have to keep the laws of God, for God's law is the only thing that gives you a right to be free.” – Laura Ingalls Wilder (c. 1881)
We find it nearly incomprehensible that while a mere fourteen year-old girl, nearly one hundred and twenty-six years ago, could fathom this Scriptural concept, grown men today, not only stumble at it, but they appear to do all in their power to convince others that they have no choice but to remain in bondage with them. "God ordains it!", they scream from the rooftops.
What utter foolishness!
Therefore thus saith Yahuwah; Ye have not hearkened unto me, in proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother, and every man to his neighbour: behold, I proclaim a liberty for you, saith Yahuwah, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 23 Feb 2007 10:48:23 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 08:19:05
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Greetings and salutations once more, brother Rick (Uncle Buck):
Peace be unto the house.
You asked: Does FAITH = ALLEGIANCE?
FA'ITHFUL, a. ...2. Firmly adhering to duty; of true fidelity; loyal; true to allegiance; as a faithful subject.
The Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Maxim: A man warring for Yahuwah should not be associated with secular business.
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 23 Feb 2007 08:25:17 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 11:37:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Buck
Eph. 4:4-6 "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, ONE FAITH, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Does FAITH = ALLEGIANCE?
All contracts are agreements, but not all agreements are contracts. CONSENT makes the law, not mere submission.
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If I have to be like him who is going to be like me?
James 1:25 The Perfect Law of Liberty
Maxim: A man warring for Yahuwah should not be associated with secular business.
Uncle Buck, the irony escapes you that the man you quote above was a citizen of an brutal Empire which overthrew a Republic, who enjoyed the benefits exclusive to that same citizenship! The man you quote above also wrote Romans 13 and other statements which fly in the face of your whole theory. Not only Paul, but Joseph, Mary and others would be "servants of two masters" if we apply your theory. Seeing the unescapable truth of this, at least brother Robert had the courage to rebut the many examples from scripture which disprove your theory as corruptions. I will admit that - yes - the "corrupt scripture" response is a handy one-size-fits-all rebutal when faced with the many examples from the Bible which clearly argue against your teaching. In fact, it is the only rebutal available to those examples in light of the fact that you can only support your theory by quoting as truth the lies concocted by the Jews to frame Christ and the apostles. As this thread clearly shows, you both do exactly that!
quote:
brother Robert: We find it nearly incomprehensible that while a mere fourteen year-old girl, nearly one hundred and twenty-six years ago, could fathom this Scriptural concept, grown men today, not only stumble at it, but they appear to do all in their power to convince others that they have no choice but to remain in bondage with them. "God ordains it!", they scream from the rooftops.
Remain in bondage? LOL. You wake up and go to work to buy food and pay bills just like the rest of us. You use FRN's just like the rest of us. You sit on the INTERNET and enjoy your POWER like the rest of us. No, we are not in the forced labor camp gulags. No, we are not forced to make bricks in Egypt. History views those situations as real bondage and yet many cultures view our current situation here in the states as pure sloth enjoyed by spoilt brats. We wilfully work when we please, if we please, or if our present situation requires it.
What you are doing is twisting concepts around, redefining words to fit your agenda and then painting it into the mouths of those you quote. That is incomprehensible yet you do it in the name of "rightly dividing the word".
For Truth, the more serious 'bondage' we are in is that which we inherited from Adam after the fall. If we were to focus on overcoming that bondage, all else would be solved upon our healing. |
Edited by - BatKol on 01 Mar 2007 08:38:34 |
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Uncle Buck
Advanced Member
Australia
134 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 18:01:13
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brothers and sisters, neighbours near and far, greetings and peace!
Batkol I didn't know there was a brick making job going in Egypt thanks for the tip!
Where our mutual, if I may be so bold, misunderstanding of Apostle Paul is may be in the difference between consent and submit in a scriptural and legal context.
Maxim: Consensus facit legem. Consent makes the law.
Moral maxim: Itelius estomnia mala pati quam malo consentire. It is better to suffer every ill than to consent to evil.
Maxim: Nihil consenui tam controrium est quam vis atque metus. Nothing is so much opposed to there being consent as force and fear.
In Commonwealth v. Tuck 82 A. 2d 288 at 290 (1951):
" 'Consent' involves 'submission', but mere submission by no means necessarily involves consent, and therefore in indecent assault cases, age mentality of subject assault are important and should be considered in determining presence or absence of consent, since mere submission of child of tender years or retarded mental development to attempt an outrage of its person should not, in and of itself, be construed to be such consent as would, in point of law, justify or excuse assault."
The differentiating factor between consent and submission is that the mind of the propositus must rationally and voluntarily weigh up the factors involved and then affirmatively agree to submit. If the mind is affected by factors which mean that there is no real rational decision or no real weighing up the pros and cons, then there will be merer submission. The Law of Consent P.W.Young page 20-21.
Perhaps now Romans 13:1-7 and 1st Peter 2:13-18 and similar "submit" scriptures might make more sense to you. Yahushua doesn't want us to be dishonourable to the secular authorities by resisting them or resisting the will of Yahuwah's love command.
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If I have to be like him who is going to be like me?
James 1:25 The Perfect Law of Liberty
Maxim: A man warring for Yahuwah should not be associated with secular business. |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2007 : 00:00:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Buck
brothers and sisters, neighbours near and far, greetings and peace!
Batkol I didn't know there was a brick making job going in Egypt thanks for the tip!
Where our mutual, if I may be so bold, misunderstanding of Apostle Paul is may be in the difference between consent and submit in a scriptural and legal context.
Maxim: Consensus facit legem. Consent makes the law.
Moral maxim: Itelius estomnia mala pati quam malo consentire. It is better to suffer every ill than to consent to evil.
Maxim: Nihil consenui tam controrium est quam vis atque metus. Nothing is so much opposed to there being consent as force and fear.
In Commonwealth v. Tuck 82 A. 2d 288 at 290 (1951):
" 'Consent' involves 'submission', but mere submission by no means necessarily involves consent, and therefore in indecent assault cases, age mentality of subject assault are important and should be considered in determining presence or absence of consent, since mere submission of child of tender years or retarded mental development to attempt an outrage of its person should not, in and of itself, be construed to be such consent as would, in point of law, justify or excuse assault."
The differentiating factor between consent and submission is that the mind of the propositus must rationally and voluntarily weigh up the factors involved and then affirmatively agree to submit. If the mind is affected by factors which mean that there is no real rational decision or no real weighing up the pros and cons, then there will be merer submission. The Law of Consent P.W.Young page 20-21.
Perhaps now Romans 13:1-7 and 1st Peter 2:13-18 and similar "submit" scriptures might make more sense to you. Yahushua doesn't want us to be dishonourable to the secular authorities by resisting them or resisting the will of Yahuwah's love command.
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If I have to be like him who is going to be like me?
James 1:25 The Perfect Law of Liberty
Maxim: A man warring for Yahuwah should not be associated with secular business.
Uncle Buck,
Let's apply your theory.
When Joseph - who is called righteous (meaning literally one who follows divine law) - goes to register he and Mary with the Empire census, explain for us how this measures into your equation. While you are at it, explain the difference between an Empire and a Republic keeping in mind the Republic had been well over thrown by Jesus' and Paul's day. You might want to also touch on the brutality of the Empire as well to give is a good picture of the government that Joseph registered with and that Paul was a citizen of.
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Bondservant
Forum Administrator
382 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2007 : 09:57:37
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This topic is now locked.
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. - Mark 12:27 |
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The Kingdom of Yahuwah
Topic Locked
