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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 10:16:30
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While I am ignorant in many areas, I try not to say things off the cuff. It goes against all scholastics to quote secondary sources without having the primary source work(s) but the following is FYI since I already stuck my foot in on a previous post and don‘t have the works of Abdias (Obadiyah the proselyte?).
Saul of Tarsus - Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles "(d.c.65 C.E.) ... Acts 21:21. Although the leaders of Jerusalem succeeded in appeasing the local community, Jews from Asia instigated violent riots against Paul when he visited the Temple. In the end, he was rescued by Roman soldiers, who put him under protective arrest: he spent two years in detention in Rome, where he passed a further two years in custody. According to a well-established tradition, he was slain there during the Neronian persecution of Christians ..."
Encyclopedia Judaica vol 13 pg 191
" ... Paul the apostle, who before was called Saul, after his great travail and unspeakable labours in promoting the Gospel of Christ, suffered also in this first persecution under Nero. Abdias, declareth that unto his execution Nero sent two of his esquires, Ferega and Parthemius, to bring him word of his death. They, coming to Paul instructing the people, desired him to pray for them, that they might believe; who told them that shortly after they should believe and be baptised at his sepulchre. This done, the soldiers came and led him out of the city to the place of execution, where he, after his prayers made, gave his neck to the sword ..."
'The Acts and Monuments of These Latter and Perilous Days' John Foxe, 1563
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 10:42:20
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True North,
I knew all along that you were not going off of the cuff on your claim about Paul's beheading. The problem I have with going to the traditions is that there are so many conflicting stories. If we are to consider these writings, then we must also consider the other claims made in these documents. To do so adds some elements into the equation, which in my opinion, as the saying goes "digs up more snakes then it kills". As Robert-James noted earlier some accounts have Paul going to the misty isles and fellowshiping with the Druids.
How do we know which is true. As you mentioned we must look at the motives of the authors when considering such extra accounts. Also, concerning the council of Nicea, some items were too well known not to
leave in. Paul's martyrdoom, in my opinion, would have had to make it into the final writings if it was a well known truth, lest the official version of the Nicene Testement be lacking in authority. Items that were too well known for centuries could not be left out. Having said that I find it hard to reconsile the Truth of Paul's martyrdoom, especially since it would have benefited the Council of Nicea as well as Constantine when Christianity became the STATE religion. Such an item as Paul's martyrdoom would have been a great testimony to the new STATE religion (which is why I believe that it was promoted extra-Biblically after the fact.. I don't put much stock in the 65 AD date for this report seeing as the Nicene Council was 323AD) The Nicenes would have loved this bit to include into Acts if it were available, IMO.
Peace to you,
Steve
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 12:15:31
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True North said: Add to this the fatalistic Calvinist doctrine of "everything that happens is God's will" and you completely remove yourself from the teachings of Yeshuat Elohim.
Steve:
Remember the former things of old: for I am Elohim, and there is none else; I am Elohim, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.—Isaiah 46:9,10
Even evil is scripted in by YHWH:
Isaiah 45:6
"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things."
Amos 3:6
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and YHWH hath not done it?
Proverbs 16:4
YHWH hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
What we are dealing with here is a total Sovereign YHWH who is carrying out this drama for his own purposes.... and His pleasure will be done.. even if His Wisdom seems foolish to us.
Even Paul spoke of this:
If anyone is evil it is because YHWH has scripted it(Rom 1:24-28) and caused them to rebel against Him (Rom 11:32). If they do not comprehend YHWH's message it is because He has willed their minds to be dull (Rom 11:8) and made them stubborn (Rom 9:18). YHWH prohibits the Gospel from reaching certain cities(Act 16:6-7) and He decides in advance when a person will be born and when he or she will die (Act 17:26). Even who gets salvation was decided by YHWH before the beginning of time (2 Tim 1:9, Eph 1:11). If anyone has faith and is thereby saved, it is all from YHWH, not from their efforts (Eph 2:9-10).
This may sound crazy but, then again, how can the clay pot ask
the potter, "why have you made me thus"? Romans 9:19-22.
Paul's words on this topic are very much in line with the Tanakh when understanding that YHWH is the sole script writer. It comes with the concept of Him being onmipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.
I can respect that you do not believe this. It's YHWH's will either way.
Peace,
Steve
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 16:21:49
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I am on this forum to learn from and with my peers. If it so happens that Ruach Hakodesh uses this forum to help others, Baruch Ata Adonai Elohenu Melek haolam. I have been silent on many of the issues on this forum because I do not like to preach to the choir.
The issue of the nature of God and the nature of man is some of the least understood and most critical to determining spirituals. There are no contradictions, only wrong premises to overuse the Rothschild mistress' crap. I can prove or disprove just about anything I presume using the bilble. Add a little circular reasoning and Greek logistics that put everything in a neat little box and zowie, I have the higher criticism of the 17th century.
I do not respond to some posts no matter how innocuous they appear because of the diametrically opposed views of the one posting, not because I don't examine to show myself approved unto God a workman that needeth not be ashamed.
nuff said
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 17:16:53
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True North,
Thanks for your thoughts and opinions .... and thanks for starting this thread entitled, "circular reasoning and presumptions" which gave me a chance to defend my concepts concerning Paul and the use of his ROMAN CITIZENSHIP. I am more confidant in my positions now than before you started this thread.
I did want to make one last comment on this comment of yours:
You said: I can prove or disprove just about anything I presume using the bilble.
Steve: Really? You made the presumption that Paul was beheaded and that you can not prove by using the Bible.
Thanks again,
Steve
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Edited by - BatKol on 11 Apr 2004 19:11:07 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2004 : 10:05:32
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Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
We know that many, particularly those who are OF the world, may hate us for what we are about to say, but it is something that we have been putting off far too long for fear of offending, but to be True to our King we can no longer conceal the understanding we have been freely given. Please know that this is not an accusation against anyone or their particular beliefs, it is not meant to hurt anyone, it is simply what we perceive to be the “truth of the matter” and we give it to you in brotherly Love.
It is felt on this end that we are at an impasse unless we can come to a consensus on what an ‘elohiym, translated most often ‘god’, ‘gods’ or ‘God’, in the English, is. This is the crux of the whole matter. If we could agree on what this word ‘elohiym means, much of this discourse would be unnecessary.
The ‘religionists’ say it means “the Supreme Being”, period, end of story; there are no other gods other than God.
GOD, n.
1. The Supreme Being; Jehovah; the eternal and infinite spirit, the creator, and the sovereign of the universe.
But the Scripture tells us otherwise. It tells us that there are other gods [215 times in the KJV]; that there are false gods.
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
1Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
GOD, n.
2. A false god; a heathen deity; an idol.
It tells us “Ye are gods”.
Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Yahuchanan [John] 10:34 Yahushua [Jesus] answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
In what way could WE be ‘gods’? If Yahweh is the Supreme Sovereign [King] of the universe, and WE are the children of Yahweh, would not His children be His princes and princesses?
GOD, n.
3. A prince; a ruler; a magistrate or judge; an angel [literally a messenger].
Now, if we wrap all of these together we get the definition of ‘elohiym, and its English equivalent, ‘god’. The following definition, we feel, is the sum total of all of the above.
4. Any person or thing exalted too much in estimation, or deified and honored as the chief good.
Thus we can state that the definition of ‘god’ is “e, all of the above” and summarized by definition #4; i.e. “Any person or thing…honored as the chief good.”
To clarify this we must figure out what it means to be, “the chief good”.
‘Good’ as it is used here is a noun. What does the noun ‘good’ mean?
GOOD, n. That which contributes to diminish or remove pain, or to increase happiness or prosperity; benefit; advantage [privilege]; opposed to evil or misery.
Thus, we can extrapolate that a god is someone or something that is the “highest [chief] provider of good”, that is to say, “That which contributes to diminish or remove pain, or to increase happiness or prosperity; benefit; advantage [privilege]; opposed to evil or misery.”
We further perceive that the word ‘elohiym is a “twisting together” of multiple concepts, five concepts to be exact, rolled together, Judge, Lawgiver, King, Saviour and last, but hardly least, Creator [Father or Founder].
But to continue, another way to say this is, whoever or whatever is our “benefactor” is our “god”.
Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
BENEFAC'TOR, n. He who confers a benefit…
CONFER', v.t. 1. To give, or bestow…
This word is particularly used to express the grant of favors [also know as grace], benefits and privileges to be enjoyed, or rights, which are to be permanent; as, to confer on one the privileges of a citizen; to confer a title or an honor.
So, with the above understanding of what a god is, who or what should we apply to for the “privilege” of using the modern day mode of movement [one tiny example]? What god do we pray to [make application to] for our benefits, advantages, privileges, favors [grace] and protection? [Note: Do a word study on “apply” and all the key words associated with it, and you will find that it means to “make supplication” or to “pray”.
Most of us, you will find, “apply” to, i.e. “pray” to two gods, for some, it is “the LORD” AND the STATE; for others, it is to JESUS AND the STATE; and still others of us will supplicate to Yahweh [or some variation thereof] AND the STATE.
The STATE is a god when it confers benefits [social welfare], privileges [licenses], advantages [favoritism] and protection. Dear brothers and sisters, if we cannot come to agreement on this most important of topics, all other communion [conversation] falls flat on the ground, dead as a doornail!
When we said we don’t care what Daniel appears to have done, we don’t care what Paul seems to have done, it is with this understanding…
Mattithyahu [Matthew] 6:24a No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
Masters in the above verse is the Greek kurios, and is translated, God, Lord or master; take your pick!! If it makes one feel better to choose master and leave the other two off, so be it…but as for me and my house, we shall serve Yahweh.
M`ASTER, n. [L. magister, compounded of the root of magis, major, greater.] 1. A man who rules, governs…
“Nations that want protectors, will have masters.”
Choose you this day whom you will serve…
It is done.
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 12 Apr 2004 10:51:57 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2004 : 19:01:08
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Greetings brother Robert and family,
Thanks for the essay. I am going to print it out and perhaps might have a few questions to understand better your position.
A topic of this weight deserves close examination. I look forward to chatting with you about it soon.
Peace to you all,
Steve |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2004 : 20:12:55
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To understand the mind of The Spirit of YHWH, is still beyond us all. We see in part. Puppets on a string is not something I'd ever want for my children. Nor, for a wife. The concept of free will, is Freedom and Liberty indeed, and Truth of the Highest nature.
Yahushuah brings some clarity to this age old problem {free will vs. YHWH's sovereign nature]: "offenses must come...but woe unto him from whom they come from". This is Father speaking through a pure vessel.
Who are the "angels" who kept not their first estate? Are they kept captive here, and given a second choice? Seems I as an earthly Daddy would also give my children and wife a second chance to chose, on their own volition, who they desire to live with.
YHWH married a carnal wife, represented by the spiritually un-regenerated house of Israel, on that Third Day ceremony. He knew fully well, Israel would fail miserably as a wife-people...and not be able to keep the Law of matrimony...nor bring forth sons/daughter's. This is His sovereign nature at work. What the law could not do, Grace and Truth does. Ever notice that Moses and his law failed to bring forth the Children into the Promised state? Yahushua {Joshua} spent more time in the tabernacle, receiving Divine instructions from The YHWH, than Moses did.
I am in agreement with oneisraelite, choose this day whom ye shall serve.
Woe to them who call evil good, and good evil.
Did Abraham "know" that he could sacrifice Isaac, till he tried too? No.Did Gideon "Know" that he would deliver Israel, till he tried? No. Did Yahushuah "Know" he could lay down his life and be resurrected from the dead till he tried? No.
Do we "Know" we can live free and build the Kingdom till we try? No.
Win-lose-tie, don't we all want Father to grab us up, on the other side, and say, "son You tried"?
Let us be motivated by the thought, "I can do all things through the annointing, {Christ} which strenthens me". Which...not who.
Resurrect means to Stand up, here and Now. He that has part with the first resurrection, well, the second death has no part with him. As a reference, Stephen, Acts 7, already had the first resurrection. On his second death, {stoned to death} He saw the dimensions open for Him. Yahushuah was so excited, He could not keep His seat...He stood up in wonderment that there really was Faith, on the face of Stephen!
Circular reasoning is horrible, however it effects any of the Body...of Messiah Yahushuah. Hence, Yahshua circumcised them at gilgal, {symbolic of the heart}...before they could venture out into the Promised state of Being victor's. Gilgal is to go in a circle. pi should tell us that the end of a circle shall never be found.
Yahushuah stated that We are elohim...God's, but that we shall die just like mere men, for we don't protect the widow's-orphan's, ah, the down trodden.
Spirit and Truth.
Spirit = esoteric essense. Truth is as Brother Robert tries to bring forth in defination of words. A silly black robed judge, is playing God, Mr. Elohim. Do you have respect of "person's"...the god's? A King or Prince, has his own court. Words absolutely breakdown, and become meaning-less, without the proper defination of the words.
And the Word was made flesh. The essense of this statement is that...you too, can be made The Word. And walk, and move, and have Your Being in Him, The Body of Messiah.
When the Spirit of Truth comes...He will guide You into all underStandings...of the Nature of His Being.
To continuely go in a circular reasoning, one will dig himself a pit, with his own wanderings, and in this pit is no water.
The first resurrection, is for the here and now. And few there be that find it.
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2004 : 06:50:15
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Consider this presumption: The book of Hebrews was the defense wriiten for Paul at his second Roman Trial maybe written by James.
Further study shows that Matthew Henry was raised in civil resistance. His father left Europe because of license issue. The translations of Henry's works are different also, meaning the presumption that they are also editted.
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2004 : 07:24:15
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The other presumption (a Lawful term whereas assumption is a legal or ordinary term used) I made is that Paul was killed. I use the hearsay of historical references and because that is the way civil resistance was treated during Nero's presumption of deity to presume that Paul ended the same way.
Those who would not bow to a deity but held the truth that there is One Sovereign, the King of kings, were killed. Those that were thrown to the lions were not killed because of their religion but because they would not bow to a presumed deity. Religion of all kinds was allowed in Rome as long as the presumed king was acknowledged and tribute was given.
The only way to testify before a presumed king is to put oneself into their jurisdiction. Thus Paul fulfilled the prophecy to testify before kings by putting himself in subjection to their legal jurisdiction. Paul would not acknowledge any Sovereign but the King and presumably was killed.
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2004 : 07:56:20
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True North: The only way to testify before a presumed king is to put oneself into their jurisdiction.
Steve: OK. So then you agree it is not serving two masters to go into
an anti-Torah jurisdiction. I agree with you in context of exile and
no coming yet of Moshiach ben David to sit on a physical throne
True North: Thus Paul fulfilled the prophecy to testify before kings by putting himself in subjection to their legal jurisdiction. Paul would not acknowledge any Sovereign but the King and presumably was killed.
Steve: We are hitting an agreeable stride here. I think what you outline above is an excellent example of how Paul could be both a ROMAN CITIZEN as well as a 'Citizen of Heaven'. Paul, much like Daniel, claimed YHWH as ultimate Sovereign, yet recognized that all authority is sanctioned and appointed by YHWH. While I don't agree with Paul getting killed, I do agree with what your are saying concerning Paul putting himself in subjection to LEGAL jurisdiction.
Peace to all,
Steve
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2004 : 11:23:02
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So we don't care whether Paul was killed or not but it leaves us with the question of two masters by citizenship? Or does two citizenship allegiances leave one in some compromized position? Or does it not matter at all? Or some other position not considered?
Daniel became a slave and still would not follow civil law, Paul would not follow civil law and was held for two years minimum (maybe) in a position of house arrest. If I don't follow civil (mala prohibata) law I put myself in a position of house arrest.
The line of Seth ... then began men to call upon the name of the LORD ... Genesis 4:26. That lineage provides the example for a King and a cohen of HaShem not serving two masters.
You must be able to read Hebrew to follow that lineage through the Tanak but it is there.
That is the stance I will follow that I may be known of HaElyon. For ... Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Usury and gubment benefits are covetous iniquity and just part of the result of participating without cooperating as a us slave. Not for me, as for me and my house we will serve HaShem. It does'nt matter if I know Him or all about Him but does He know me?
Shema Y'Israel Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Echad ... Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2004 : 12:40:03
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True North said: So we don't care whether Paul was killed or not but it leaves us with the question of two masters by citizenship?
Steve: Sure we care about if Paul was killed or not however the Bible does not say that he was.
Some on this list assert that to submit to a heathen GOVT is serving two masters. I don't think that it is else Paul would have served two masters by being a ROMAN CITIZEN. On this I thought we agreed.
True NOrth: or does two citizenship allegiances leave one in some compromized position?
Steve: I don't think so although others on this list say otherwise.
True NOrth: Or does it not matter at all? Or some other position not considered?
Steve: It matters in context that we are in BONDAGE politically until Moshiach ben David re-institutes the Throne.
True North: Daniel became a slave and still would not follow civil law,
Steve: This is not correct. Daniel only rejected civil law when it conflicted with his service
to YHWH. Daniel (BELTESHAZZAR) was able to follow both Babyl Law and Torah. Daniel 6:4-5 says that the conspiritor Babylonian presidents and princes could NOT find ANY fault with Daniel according to THEIR kingdom and the only way to trap Daniel was to create a new statute that would make Daniel traverse Torah.
True North: Paul would not follow civil law and was held for two years minimum (maybe) in a position of house arrest.
Steve: Are we reading the same book? Felix and Agrippa acknowledged that Paul had NOT broken
any civil laws and that the charges against him where false! Paul violated no laws of Torah or Rome. This is what he professed and was willing to stand in ROMAN JURISDICTION to prove it. Read Paul's defense of himself!!! Acts ends with Paul not dying but with the Jews leaving him alone and him preaching the Gospel unhindered will full confidance to all who came. That sounds like victory to me.
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 23:18:25
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Steven,
who gives you permission to travel upon the public roads? {Point Bank}
Anyone: who is your given master that issuesd permission slips for you to travel about..spreading the Good news?
Who gives you permission for you to even go to the store?
I got your answer, right here.
And the carnal man won't like it!
I have a feeling that Steven, being appointed to bear the brunt of many chicken's, asks permission of the fourth beast...or whatever, to even go to the store. Steven is not the target, whosoever reads this post, YOU are responsible for your own cowardness. Wear your chains lightly, for we hear them clang as you move about, as obedient slaves, who have , as yet, not been set free. And then again, The messiah came to set the captives free...so has He Come? |
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 06:07:44
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so has He Come?
Yes indeed, He has come
"If you're waiting (Futurism) for the return of the Messiah, you fail to see that we are already in the full dawn light of the seventh day. The new Jerusalem state. The King has returned within. And the kingdom of heaven "on earth as in heaven" is extant. But if you are still waiting, then wait you will. You might be right about Rapture".
Read the savings to suitors thread for the full impact at Law for this David Merill quote.
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 20:05:41
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Robert-James says: I have a feeling that Steven, being appointed to bear the brunt of many chicken's, asks permission of the fourth beast...or whatever, to even go to the store.
Steve: LOL. I have asked you not to do this more than once.. You, who is under the delusion of a self proclaimed unadultrated walk, wants to get self righteous in public????? If I didn't have a DL to work and get money and go to the store, how could I have kept your family fed when YOU failed to do so, even when YOU knew exactly were they were and the phone number to call? Going on almost a year now and no phone call or support from Daddy. Typical of your ilk... I notice no admin censoring your words that have been up since yesterday so I guess it is fine to go down this road here. YHWH's Will be done then.
I ask you Robert-James, since you publicly proclaim to have an "unadultrated walk":
Who feeds your children and why is it not you? To use your own line of thinking, YOU will be held responsible for your own cowardly acts of being a DEAD BEAT DAD when your own children are just one phone call away, yet you are either too cheap or too apathetic to shoulder your own responsibility financially, let a lone pick up the phone! Who do you think you are trying to fool? You think just because you spell your name a certain way you are excused from the duty of caring for and feeding your children? If you represent the "kingdom" I think I'll pass.... You have the testes to call me a 'chicken' when you can't even fulfill the task of providing for your own children, content to let another man pay your way (who himself has a large home schooling family with only one money source)?
Spare those who know the real Robert-James the embarassment of this self righteous drivel you spew forth. |
Edited by - BatKol on 16 Apr 2004 07:52:03 |
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Manuel
Advanced Member
USA
762 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 20:54:45
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Under existing US laws, our own Christian Forefathers, and Jesus Christ Himself, are guilty of "hate speech".
Balaam [Jesus] is raised from the dead and being punished in boiling hot semen. Those who mock the words of the Jewish sages and sin against Israel are boiled in hot excrement, 57a Gittin
Christians! Start Your Engines!!
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Thomas Jefferson
1743-1826 Letters, Electronic Text Center, University of Virginia Library
"What a wretched depravity of sentiment and manners must have prevailed before such corrupt maxims [the Talmud] could have obtained credit! It is impossible to collect from these writings a consistent series of moral Doctrine... It was the reformation of this `wretched depravity' of morals which Jesus undertook."
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George Washington
( in Maxims of George Washington by A. A. Appleton & Co.)
"They (the Jews) work more effectively against us, than the enemy's armies. They are a hundred times more dangerous to our liberties and the great cause we are engaged in... It is much to be lamented that each state, long ago, has not hunted them down as pest to society and the greatest enemies we have to the happiness of America."
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Benjamin Franklin
(This prophecy, by Benjamin Franklin, was made in a "CHIT CHAT AROUND THE TABLE DURING INTERMISSION," at the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention of 1787. This statement was recorded in the dairy of Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, a delegate from South Carolina.)
"Jews, gentlemen, are Asiatics, let them be born where they will nor how many generations they are away from Asia, they will never be otherwise. Their ideas do not conform to an American's, and will not even thou they live among us ten generations. A leopard cannot change its spots. Jews are Asiatics, are a menace to this country if permitted entrance, and should be excluded by this Constitutional Convention. "
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Jesus Christ
"Be careful," Jesus said to them. "Be on your guard against the yeast of the
Pharisees and Sadducees [read: jews]."
John 8:44 You [jews] belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies
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Martin Luther
"He did not call them Abraham's children, but a 'brood of vipers' [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, 'He has a demon' [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord calls them a 'brood of vipers'; furthermore in John 8:39-44 he states: 'If you were Abraham's children ye would do what Abraham did.... You are of your father the devil.' It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today."
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Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf
"When thus, for the first time, I recognized the Jew as the coldhearted, shameless, and calculating director of this revolting vice traffic in the scum of the big city, a cold shudder ran down my back."
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Alexander McClelland
"The two Kapos [in the concentration camp] that beat me daily, using a heavy wooden baton they called
'Herr Doktor' (The Doctor) were both fellow Prisoners, both were Jewish,
one from Hungary and the other was, I believe, a Ukrainian."
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Lt. Col. F. P. "Bud" Farrell, U.S.A.F. Ret.
"Communism is jewish"
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This puts 254 million Americans today, Jesus Christ, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Adolf Hitler himself, Louis IX, Pope Julius III, Pope Clement VIII, other popes, the Frankists, Martin Luther, Alexander McClellan, Peter Styvesant, Martin Luther, the Queen of Hungary, Kaiser Wilhelm II, Mark Twain, George Bernard Shaw, Colonel Farrell, Charles Lindbergh, Louis Farrakhan, Henry Wallace, in complete agreement about ONE thing:
The Talmud STINKS!
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2004 : 08:00:12
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True North says: so has He Come?
Yes indeed, He has come
Steve: If the Moshiach ben David has come then why are not the weapons turned to plowshared and everyone from the least to the greatest knowing YHWH (just to name a few unfulfilled prophecies)?
Are these also things that "happen in the heart" and not to be taken literaly?
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2004 : 09:11:39
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According to your rendering of the First Commandment did Paul traverse by being one who invoked his STATUS which included the privlidge of the LEX ROMANA as it pertains to Acts 25:10? Luke 20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?
1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2004 : 10:13:03
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True North,
You reference to 1 Cor 2:16 is not talking about ROMAN GOVT. If you read the whole context you will see he is speaking about being brought under the power of carnal desires. Let me post the preceeding verses to prove my point.
1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s
If 1 Cor 2:16 is about the ROMAN GOVT then Paul would have contradicted himself As you said before there are no contradictions only wrong assuptions. This certainly applies to 1 Cor 2:16. There is no contradiction when you read the surrounding verses which give definition to which specific "powers" Paul is speaking about.. Clearly Paul was brought under a 'power' in Acts 25:10 so th is statement in 1 Cor 2:16 cannot be some blanket statement but rather a statement made about the particular subject Paul was speaking about when he made the comment. I notice what consistantly underpins this ideology is out of context verses with the 'agenda' breathed into them.
Here are some verses which DO speak directly to the topic at hand and verses, no doubt, formed the ideology which Paul preceeded with when dealing with the ROMAN GOVT:
Kefa Aleph (1st Peter) 2:13-17]
Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for YHWH’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15 For this is the will of Elohim, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men — 16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of Elohim. 17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear Elohim. Honor the king.
Romans 13:1-7
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from Elohim, and the authorities that exist are appointed by Elohim. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of Elohim, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves, 3 for rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is Elohim’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is Elohim’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are Elohim’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
Some wrongly assert that Romans 13 is about righteous Church govermnment but this error is easily exposed as the Church at the time of Paul did not have authority of the sword. Only Rome at that time had the authority of the sword. Also Yahushua's own comments about the sword should also clear up any confusion: "those who live by the sword, die by the sword". So much for Church authority bearing the sword!
Good advice for survival until the glodal Torah World Order of the Throne of David is re-established:
Proverbs 16:7 When a man's ways are pleasing to YHWH,
he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.
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Edited by - BatKol on 16 Apr 2004 10:18:32 |
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Circular Reasoning and Presumption
