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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 23:25:14
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In this Biblical day the VE occurs for us in North America.
By happenstance, the new (dark) moon seems to occur on this day also.
Happy New Year!
This day (March 20) is Abib 1.
On Abib 10 (March 29) one selects the Passover lamb. |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2004 : 20:08:55
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Walter:
It pleases us to see that you are addressing this topic.
It is our understanding that the Year, based on Yahweh's Ancient Hebrew Solar Calendar which He gave to our ancestors, began at 12:00 noon today ,which on the Julian/Gregorian calendar used extensively in our society, is 3-20-2004.
It is our further understanding that this is ...
The first day of the year.
The first day of the first month of the year.
The first day of the first week of the year.
The first weekly Sabbath of the Year. (but not because it falls on the seventh day of the Gregorian Calendar...that is only a coincidence...it will change to a different day relative to the Gregorian calendar when the 48 hour Sabbath at the Feast of Weeks (which some call Pentecost) occurs.
If we are incorrect in any of this we are willing to change if we can be shown from credible sources backed by Scripture, authentic historical sources and archeology.
Any feedback from the ecclesia is appreciated.
Marty |
Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 26 Jan 2005 14:40:46 |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2004 : 20:14:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Walter
On Abib 10 (March 29) one selects the Passover lamb.
Walter:
What does the above statement mean considering Paul's statement that "Messiah is our Passover"?
What does the above statement mean when considering that Yahshua is/was the "Lamb of Yahweh"?
What does the above statement mean in light of the Book of Hebrews statement that Yahshua was "sacrificed once for all" or words to that effect?
Marty |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2004 : 22:30:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Cornerstone Foundation
It is our understanding that the Year based on Yahweh's Ancient Hebrew Solar Calendar which He gave to our ancestors began at 12:00 noon today ,which on the Julian/Gregorian calendar used extensively in our society, is 3-20-2004.
It is our further understanding that this is:
The first day of the year.
The first day of the first month of the year.
The first day of the first week of the year.
The first weekly Sabbath of the Year. (but not because it falls on the seventh day of the Gregorian Calendar...that is only a coincidence...it will change to a different day relative to the Gregorian calendar when the 48 hour Sabbath at the Feast of Weeks (which some call Pentecost) occurs.
I believe the Biblical day starts at sundown, being when the sun is 'even' with the far horizon (exact definition is not yet known to me).
The first day of the year - check.
The first day of the first month of the year - check.
The first day of the first week of the year / The first weekly Sabbath of the Year - Yes. I believe that Abib 1 must always be a sabbath/seventh day; it sets the pace for all the other sabbaths, regular or special.
"48 hour" Pentecost - check
Except for the start of the day we appear to agree. But I'm sure most others here don't, from what I remember of past posts. |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2004 : 22:42:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Cornerstone Foundation
What does the above statement mean considering Paul's statement that "Messiah is our Passover"?
What does the above statement mean when considering that Yahshua is/was the "Lamb of Yahweh"?
What does the above statement mean in light of the Book of Hebrews statement that Yahshua was "sacrificed once for all" or words to that effect?
Luke 22:19* And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1 Cor 11:24* And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1 Cor 11:25* After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
I believe we should honor Christ by keeping the Passover; it was instituted as a perpetual holy day anyway.
It was on the tenth of Abib when Jesus was selected by the people as their king/savior/passover.
John 12:
12 ¶ On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13* Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,
15* Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
(more later) |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2004 : 22:56:37
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Walter:
Thank you for your helpful responses.
Concerning the many references in Scripture to "between the two evenings"...
Is it possible that the second "even" is the one you describe and the first "even" is:
at high noon when there is an "even" amount of time of daylight in the daylight portion of a 24 hour period, before high noon and after high noon?
The sun actually and technically "begins to GO DOWN at that moment in a day.
Respectfully submitted,
Marty |
Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 25 Jan 2005 17:54:09 |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2004 : 08:19:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Cornerstone Foundation
Concerning the many references in Scripture to "between the two evenings"...
Is it possibe that the second "even" is the one you describe and the first even is:
at high noon when there is an "even" amount of time of daylight in the daylight portion of a 24 hour period, before high noon and after high noon?
The sun actually and technically "begins to GO DOWN at that moment in a day.
As far as I know, there's only one mis-translated verse which should say "between the evens." Which are the ones you know of?
I've heard the assertion that high-noon is the "even," but I cannot believe it. Too much scripture is against it, imho. Yes, the sun begins to go down, but it is not setting until ... evening. One favorite is Jeremiah 6:4 regarding the "shadows of the evening are stretched out." Does "are stretched out" indicate 1) the beginning the action of stretching, or 2) the whole action of stretching, or 3) the state of having been stretched? If (1) evening = noon; if (2) the entire afternoon is evening; if (3) evening means similar as we use in English. I think the context of Jer 6:4-5 shows it is (3), but there are other verses that speak to the issue.
In my web article at: http://home.earthlink.net/~walterk12/Xian/Cal/Calendar.html
under the heading: "The Biblical Day starts at Sundown" are some scriptures in support of my belief. |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2004 : 11:51:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Walter
As far as I know, there's only one mis-translated verse which should say "between the evens." Which are the ones you know of?
Walter:
In some translations of the Scriptures the following verses are translated "between the two evenings":
Exodus 12:6
Exodus 16:12
Leviticus 23:5
Numbers 9:3
Numbers 28:4
Numbers 28:16
There may be others if we take the time to look for them.
Knowing that some of our Israylite ancestors in certain parts of England and in the southern United States referred to the time of day from high noon to dark at night as "evening" may also yield some clues.
It is our understanding that many in the south still commonly refer to that portion of the daylight hours of a 24 hour period as "evening".
Can anyone from that area confirm or deny this for the ecclesia?
Thank you for your research in this important area, Walter.
Best Regards,
Marty
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2004 : 17:26:30
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Hi fellow saints,
psalm 55:17...evening and morning, and at noon will I pray, and cry aloud and he shall hear my voice....{David talking}.
A day starts at daybreak, say 6:00 a.m. The third hour, 9:00 a.m. is morning prayer, 12:00 is noon prayer, 3:00 is evening prayer. {Acts 3:1},{pentacost power came around 9:00 a.m...Acts 2:15}.
Daniel did these three prayer times...Daniel 6:10.
A scriptural 'day' is twelve hours long, as is the night.Does scripture ever mention a sabbath night? {He does mention that the night comes and no man does works]
My little mind will not let me think a day starts at night.
Here in the Carolina mountains, dinner is a meal from noon till what? 2:00. Supper is a meal at or near true sundown, i.e. darkness. It took me awhile to understand this. A Church dinner is not the same as a Church supper. dumb Yankee's {:
I know we are to be instant in prayer, but-and the ancient Israelite practice has three set-appointed times...daily...to pray. Good enough for Daniel and David, good enough for me.
We better do something as our Muslim friends pray 5 times a day. |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2004 : 20:33:19
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Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
brother Marty, we are currently sojourning in "the south" and they still, 'till this day say, "evening" is from 12 noon 'till sundown, however, we do not believe that a 24-day "starts" at noon.
brother Walter, you bring up a VERY interesting point on your website concerning the first day of Ethanim being a sabbath. We shall take a long hard look at this. Thank you for all your efforts.
brother Robert-James, you state that your "little mind" will not let you think that a day [as in the 24-hour period?] starts at night. What time do you think a "day", as in "the 24-hour period", starts?
Their "clocks" were sun dials...on a sun dial a "day", as in the daylight hours, summer or winter, is always 12 hours long. ;)
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2004 : 23:39:35
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Brother Robert, ever heard of daybreak? Now what is the sign of day? Sunrise, or is that Sonrise. The night is far spent, the semantics of all this makes me giggle! Scripturally a day starts at 6:00 a.m. Genesis 1:5, and Elohim called the light day and the darkness they called night. Of course this is not really talking about the sunlight. Israelight vs. Cainanight. Scripture calls the divisions of time during the night{hours} watches.
By the way, the sun does not rise or set, no matter what the Bible says. |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2004 : 00:21:12
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quote:
Originally posted by oneisraelite
brother Marty, we are currently sojourning in "the south" and they still, 'till this day say, "evening" is from 12 noon 'till sundown, however, we do not believe that a 24-day "starts" at noon.
Genesis 1:5(b): And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Genesis 1:8(b): And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:13: And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Genesis 1:19: And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Genesis 1:23: And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Genesis 1:31(b): And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Which day is this?
Does evening come before morning today?
Respectfully submitted,
Marty
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2004 : 12:37:49
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| Please notice on what day the sun and moon were brought forth. So we are not talking about 24 hour periods. "And He spoke not unto them without parables". |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2004 : 12:58:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert-James
Please notice on what day the sun and moon were brought forth. So we are not talking about 24 hour periods. "And He spoke not unto them without parables".
There is no record as to when the moon was "brought forth." Its first mention is at Genesis 37:9. Genesis 1:16 talks about lights, or luminaries, those things which generate light, not reflect it. Therefore the moon's first appearance is a mystery. There is evidence it was not here from the beginning <g>, "Arcadians . . . are of a race that predates the moon." (Citation provided to me: Ovid. Fasti (Roman Holidays) Translated by Betty Rose Nagle. Bloomington & Indianapolis: Indiana University Press, 1995. Book 2 Line 289.)
It does not matter whether the "days" of creation were 24 hour days, 1000 year days, or ages, the pattern and precident is that a day starts with the night and ends at the end of the daylight. The various verses I referenced in my compilation seem suffiecient evidence to me. |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2004 : 17:08:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert-James
Please notice on what day the sun and moon were brought forth. So we are not talking about 24 hour periods. "And He spoke not unto them without parables".
We are aware that perhaps the "days" referred to in the first chapter of Genesis would perhaps, in the opinion of some, be better translated into English as "day/age" (i.e. something other than a 24 hour period).
Nevertheless, it seems there may be a parallel between those "day/ages" and every 24 hour day that Yahweh gives us, in that the pattern is that the evening always comes before the morning rather it be in relation to a 24 hour day or an age. Could this be correct?
We are not certain because our study is on-going...but it appears that some of the time lines in the Scriptures can perhaps be reconciled when such an assumption is used...when it seems impossible to reconcile them when that assumption of evening (beginning at high noon) followed by morning (beginning at midnight) is not used.
Has anyone else in the ecclesia noticed this? Can anyone help us with this?
One example of this is:
How could Israyl do all that Yahweh commanded prior to and during the Exodus if the alternative assumptions that some posting to this topic have put forth were the proper assumptions?
Also, if we know Yahweh had His Ultimate Passover Lamb, our King Yahshua Messiah executed at approximately 3 P.M. "between the two evenings" on Abib 14, isn't that very compelling evidence of of when a day begins in Yahweh's reckoning?
Marty
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2004 : 17:24:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Cornerstone Foundation
Also, if we know Yahweh had His Ultimate Passover Lamb, our King Yahshua Messiah executed at approximately 3 P.M. "between the two evenings" on Abib 14, isn't that very compelling evidence of of when a day begins in Yahweh's reckoning?
Marty,
You should be able to answer your own question from this. The day starts at "evening," does it not? By your assertion of a 3 p.m. death (which I believe is correct), the next day must start at sundown(ish). To start at it noon would make the killing of the passover and its eating on the same day, which is not the case. Also:
Deut 21:23* His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Bury Christ that same day (before sundown) is exactly what they did. |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2004 : 23:18:04
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Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
Question: Since the "sun" ["the greater light" - Earth's nearest "star"] was not created until the fourth "day", how could it be that, "sun"set [Walter], noon [Marty], or "sun"rise [Robert-James] be the start of a Scriptural day?
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 23 Mar 2004 00:01:20 |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2004 : 23:38:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Walter
quote:
Originally posted by Cornerstone Foundation
Also, if we know Yahweh had His Ultimate Passover Lamb, our King Yahshua Messiah executed at approximately 3 P.M. "between the two evenings" on Abib 14, isn't that very compelling evidence of when a day begins in Yahweh's reckoning?
Marty,
You should be able to answer your own question from this. The day starts at "evening," does it not? By your assertion of a 3 p.m. death (which I believe is correct), the next day must start at sundown(ish). To start at it noon would make the killing of the passover and its eating on the same day, which is not the case. Also:
Deut 21:23* His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Bury Christ that same day (before sundown) is exactly what they did.
Walter,
Our understanding is that if plotted on a 360 degree chart "day" would be (at the equinox) 90 degrees off from "morning" and "night" would be 90 degrees off from "evening". Do you understand what we mean by this?
By looking at things this way, it seems the problems you allude to above in reconciling the Scriptures would perhaps no longer exist.
Another correlation to this is the "ecclesiastical" Hebrew year (beginning in Abib) as compared to the "agricultural" Hebrew year (perhaps beginning in Ethanim).
We are willing to post more to explain our points here if you or others are unfamiliar with the point we are making.
We stress here that we are uncertain about some of the things we are putting forth...but in searching for the truth we continue this discussion...because the scenerio others have put forth does not reconcile all the Scriptures as far as we can ascertain at this point.
We would like to know the truth concerning these matters, if it is possible, and if it is Yahweh's will for us to know, at this time.
We have considered that it is possible that Yahshua's statement with words to this effect: "No man knows the day nor the hour of the coming of the Son of Man", may possibly have something to do with why we don't know exactly what day it is for certain or when a day begins (i.e. what hour it is).
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Respectfully submitted,
Marty |
Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 26 Mar 2005 11:08:36 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2004 : 23:45:57
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Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
Perhaps a piece of evidence would be this:
The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early [#G4404], when it was yet dark [#G4653], unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
G4404
proi
Thayer Definition:
1) in the morning, early
2) the fourth watch of the night, from 3 o’clock in the morning until 6 o’clock approximately
G4653
skotia
Thayer Definition:
1) darkness
2) the darkness due to want of light
Perhaps this verse of the Scripture will shed some "light" into the subject of when a day starts.
We see from this verse of the Scripture that the "first day of the week" could have started while it was very, very "dark", that is to say, "approximately"..."3 o'clock in the morning"...or perhaps even earlier?
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 23 Mar 2004 00:03:37 |
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Walter
Advanced Member
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2004 : 08:32:17
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Hi oneisraelite,
The pattern set down in Genesis 1 is the important thing, not so much the day the sun was made: evening then morning.
John 20:1 could be any time between sundown and sunrise, yes? Except for the alleged definition that 'early'/proi means the fourth watch of the night. But I don't see how this shows the start of the Biblical day.
Hi Marty,
I understand 90 degree angles, but can't figure out what your purpose is for them in determining the day. The ancient peoples I hope did not have to walk around with a compass and protracter to tell the time. I'd like to see your reasoning here. We definitely need to figure out (that means "agree with me" <bg>) when the day starts.
I see no "agricultural calendar in the Bible, just one calendar starting in Abib on the VE.
Walter |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2004 : 08:49:39
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quote:
Originally posted by oneisraelite
Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
Perhaps a piece of evidence would be this:
The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early [#G4404], when it was yet dark [#G4653], unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
G4404
proi
Thayer Definition:
1) in the morning, early
2) the fourth watch of the night, from 3 oÂ’clock in the morning until 6 oÂ’clock approximately
G4653
skotia
Thayer Definition:
1) darkness
2) the darkness due to want of light
Perhaps this verse of the Scripture will shed some "light" into the subject of when a day starts.
We see from this verse of the Scripture that the "first day of the week" could have started while it was very, very "dark", that is to say, "approximately"..."3 o'clock in the morning"...or perhaps even earlier?
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.
Robert:
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
Please click the following link for definitions of the words appearing in color in this post:
http://ecclesia.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=352&whichpage=5.
If the "first day of week" spoken of above had begun at the previous high noon (being the first even or evening of the day/date.....
and evening came before morning per Genesis chapter 1...
then morning would have begun at 12 midnight as it now does in most of American society....
and early in the morning, while it was still dark would have been perhaps 6 A.M. as you described per Thayers definitions...
would all the Scriptures then reconcile SO FAR even if one reckoned a day/date beginning at noon?
One key for discussion purposes (as we see it)is that we distinquish between the definition of...
1.) a "day" meaning the day/daylight portion of a 24 hour period; and
2.) a "day" or "day/date" meaning the twenty-four hours time period commencing at some particular point and then plotted on a calendar represented by a "day/date" of the "month".
Respectfully Submitted,
Marty |
Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 01 Apr 2005 23:43:18 |
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The Biblical (Solar) Calendar
