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Caleb
Advanced Member
Philippines
209 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Mar 2004 : 21:56:37
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This thread was spawned by a debate scattered over several other threads and is an attempt to narrow things down to the central issue.
The threads in question include:
Birth CERTIFICATES for Fictional Slaves
Are You a PERSON? and
Are IRS Deficiencies Causing Denied Passports?
Some relevant quotes from Steven, aka BatKol will be responded to.
Steven wrote, "YHWH truly appoints all rulers, and they are, according to 1 Samuel, a reflection of the current state of the people."
I titled this thread as I did because on this point we fully agree.
However this does not tell the whole story of the situation we find ourselves in. Steven, you have evil rulers over you who hold you in BONDAGE and you claim they are rightfully in that position. Therefore by your own confession, this reflects the condition of your heart.
By saying I am on my way out of Babylon, I am saying the following:
1) At one time I was fully in. I.e those corrupt rulers reflected the state of my own heart as well.
2) I no longer claim them as rulers, for God has changed my heart.
3) Those rulers still claim me, and until such time as I can successfully rebut those claims - and have it stick - I will not claim to be fully out.
4) As of the last time I had an encounter with the POLICE and COURTS, I could not rebut their claims. So I had to learn why and accept that they were right - that time.
5) That experience was used of God to bring me to a new level of comprehension, to the point that at the next encounter they should not be able to touch me. However, until that day comes (in the Father's timing, not mine) I will not claim to have broken the chains of Babylon.
Steven, you specialize in creating lists of:
1) What qualifies as full escape from Babylon
2) What qualifies as the end to BONDAGE
3) What qualifies as the kingdom of God.
I submit that until you are seeking the kingdom with your whole heart, all such lists are meaningless. You set yourself up as the judge of who is making it and who is not. Thus, even if I can travel freely in a unregistered car without a DRIVER's LICENSE, you might dismiss this because I am not "standing on the land." But what if I already live in a 160,000 FRN house that cost me half of that to buy? Why would I want free land that will cost me twice as much to build the same house on? (This actually is our present situation in New Zealand.)
Now this does not mean that I dismiss your criticisms of others whose walk does not appear to measure up to their talk. It is fine to note that others' witness is not necessarily as strong as they like to think it is. But having spoken this to them, move on. Accept the responsibility of being The One whose witness measures up. Besides you are using a very small sample for determining that escaping Babylon does not work.
Also don't be so sure that every last thing that you think is wrong, really is. You think that the kingdom involves severing every last connection to the world's system. Others teach that, and I thought it too at first. But the longer you seek the kingdom, the more clear it becomes to you what it is you are actually seeking. God has had to rearrange my priorities on numerous occasions, by showing me that something I thought was crucial was actually trivial.
Steven wrote, "Paul had a dual citizenship and, he claims, 'upheld the Torah'." When I talk about the present government structure we are under, I am not talking about dual-citizenship. In my own case I no longer claim allegiance to what you think of as "the government". But isn't this rebellion, or anarchy? The short anser is: absolutely not. I submit that you do not understand the nature of the system we are under today.
The modern Civil (Roman) law is based entirely upon consent. They are constantly asking you to sign forms because they need your consent. Even when they drag you into COURT for no DRIVER's LICENSE, the JUDGE must get your consent to punish you. People are confused about just how they go about getting your approval, so they cannot imagine that they are the one who gave the JUDGE the rope with which he hanged them. You volunteered in, so you can volunteer out. Simple as that. There is lots of advice about what is involved in unvolunteering, and much of it does not work. Thus your claim that, "the alleged cure is no better than the punishment!"
This misses the central point. If you are IN the present evil system, it is because you have agreed to it. If you do not see it as evil, that reflects your own heart. If you think you can obey evil rulers and still obey Torah, that also reflects the state of your heart. If you can agree that there is enough wrong with the system that you would refer to it as BONDAGE, then why would you voluntarily remain within it? Just because others have not entirely escaped, or the path they have chosen does not appear correct does not give you any excuse to voluntarily submit to evil.
The foundation of all government in the former British Empire is the Torah. No one can force you to accept the optional add-on of Roman civil law, especially when implemented in a manner contradictory to Torah. Beyond "Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal," etc. no one can tell you anything regarding how to live your life. Now you can volunteer into any association for your common good, and that group can write any rules it pleases to govern its members. This is a fundamental right under the British common law. The people masquerading as "the government" are just such a group. They are a purely voluntary association (several in fact), but to keep their charade going, they do their best to convince you that it is not voluntary.
A related thought is to do a search on the word "government" in your KJV. Now from all the verses that come up tell me, which government is it that scripture commands us to obey? Hint: you will not find a single verse speaking of a government different from the one at the end of all my posts. Scripture knows no other government! Even the church's beloved Romans 13 does not specify who the "higher powers" are. It never says we must pay taxes. Perhaps you've been listening to too many 501(c)3 preachers, and their modern Talmudic translations. Paul never says to obey the Roman authorities. Period.
Steven wrote, "what is Paul doing telling these people to obey this corrupt ROME of which Romans 13 speaks of? The Rome of Paul's time, is much worse than the one we have now, IMO." Well I just answered that. But I especially find it curious how many authorities we have on what life was like under the Romans. Many 501(c)3 preachers told me just how bad it was. They also told me that the Romans crucified JEEEZUS. Read the accounts yourself. Pilate upheld the law until the bitter end. He tried time and again to free an innocent man. Then finally, he washed his hands of the matter and told the Pharisees to do with him as they thought best. He never sanctioned Messiah's death.
How about Acts 25:16? "we Romans are not in the habit of handing over any who are accused of a crime before they have met their accusers face to face and have had a chance of defending the accusation." Sounds like a lawful system to me. The same preachers who put it down are the ones who proclaim how wonderful it is to be able to worship in a "free" country. Yeah, "free" just so long as they keep their opinions to themselves. As the Amish are now finding out, religious convictions don't count for a hill of beans once they slightly inconvenience the corporation.
Babylon of Daniel's day is a similar case, though as an eye-witness to the horrors you may want to claim otherwise  . Daniel 16:12-15 shows us that the King could not even change his own law when he wanted to. How does that compute with your so-called government that can and does change its statutes daily? Now if Babylon was so evil, and Daniel was obeying the Torah while there, how come they had to write a new law to trap him? Or is it possible that Babylon of Daniel's day and Rome of Paul's day had a situation very much like the British common law where the government had very little say-so in your life? So those observing the Torah were free to do so, so long as they did no harm to another or their property.
Now "juris-diction" is from Latin, the language of Rome, and it has always and only meant "oath - spoken". So the Roman civil law has only ever applied to those under oath. Today, when you sign your DRIVER's LICENSE or your tax form, you swear that oath and come under their voluntary jurisdiction. Guess what? From the moment you sign, it is no longer voluntary. Can't you see the huge gulf that separates "obeying the higher powers" when they carry out their lawful duties, such as punishing evildoers (Torah breakers) as Romans 13 states so clearly, and voluntaring by oath (contrary to Torah) into a private jurisdiction whose rules REQUIRE you to violate God's Law?
Something like a DRIVER's LICENSE is not merely a contract that a few lines can be changed on to make palatable. By signing it you become a beneficiary and lose all common law rights. You agree not to just what is on the paper in front of you but to all Acts of the legislature that regulate DRIVERS, including any future changes. This ain't a simple private contract like electricity, and you violate Torah several times over the moment you sign it. To see how accepting a benefit (DRIVING) puts you in a far worse position that signing a contract read the article linked here:
http://famguardian.org/PublishedAuthors/Media/Antishyster/V12N1-Trusts.pdf
Now what could be more just than a system that lets you choose your BONDAGE? If you are an evildoer, needing close monitoring by Big Brother, he is right there eager to help and control you. But if you already observe Torah, and need no additional instructions, you can choose another voluntary association to link up with, or none at all. In the present system, people get to choose the system of government that is best for them. It is sad testimony to the state of society that most gladly choose the present captivity. But then, the ancient Israelites longed to returnt to Egypt as well, so what has changed?
Finally, based on my own experience, the biggest mistake you are making is by focusing on the destination, rather than the journey itself. What are we doing here on the earth anyway? Is life not a series of choices that demonstrate whether we will follow Yahweh or not? If the choice to follow Him is easy, then what do we prove? Rather, "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." Acts 14:22
All men of faith in scripture paid the price of obedience. Those who sit around awaiting the final results can only hope that, like Lot, they will be snatched out of the fire at the last minute.
"Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end"
Isaiah 9:7 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2004 : 10:34:17
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Caleb said: Steven, you have evil rulers over you who hold you in BONDAGE and you claim they are rightfully in that position. Therefore by your own confession, this reflects the condition of your heart.
Steve: No. You are not digesting the word I used 'people'. The evil rulers are a reflection of Yisrael's collective actions and punishment per Duet 28, Lev 26 and a host of other scriptures which outline what is currently happening. We are living in the actions of the 4th Kingdom ruler as outlined in Daniel 11 and 12.
Caleb: I submit that until you are seeking the kingdom with your whole heart, all such lists are meaningless.
Steve: Again, you are asserting that I am not seeking the Kingdom because my outlook is not the same as yours. You have yet to show me where my positions are wrong. I will continue to assert that what we see happening outside our window and what has happened this far is exactly what was written about in scripture. Freedom comes when Daneil 12:1 comes which, I assert, comes after the victory of Moshiach ben David over the 4th Kingdom
Caleb: You set yourself up as the judge of who is making it and who is not.
Steve: I am judging the fruit of those who plug for my joining the club. I don't know you and have had very little communication with you concerning these issues. You are reading posts between myself and others who I have known and have even lived with for a long time.
We have only posted a few times here. I do enjoy your communications BTW.
Caleb: Thus, even if I can travel freely in a unregistered car without a DRIVER's LICENSE, you might dismiss this because I am not "standing on the land."
Steve: What I take issue with is the unfulfilled prophecies of the Kingdom promised. I take issue with the unfolding of Daniel 11 and, soon hopefully 12:1.
Caleb: But what if I already live in a 160,000 FRN house that cost me half of that to buy? Why would I want free land that will cost me twice as much to build the same house on? (This actually is our present situation in New Zealand.)
Steve: Very good point. But we still have not gotten down to brass tacks concerning the prophecies on what the world will be like when the Kingdom is here.
Caleb: Now this does not mean that I dismiss your criticisms of others whose walk does not appear to measure up to their talk.
Steve: And I should join? What credibility does this give their opinions? I have no problem with someone walking out their destiny as it is YHWH who does the doing. But one should Really, Really, Really get the logs out of one's own eye before starting to set themselves as an example. That is my issue.
Caleb: It is fine to note that others' witness is not necessarily as strong as they like to think it is. But having spoken this to them, move on. Accept the responsibility of being The One whose witness measures up. Besides you are using a very small sample for determining that escaping Babylon does not work.
Steve: I can only go by my years of watching the doctrine in action added with what I see written in scripture.
Caleb: Also don't be so sure that every last thing that you think is wrong, really is. You think that the kingdom involves severing every last connection to the world's system. Others teach that, and I thought it too at first. But the longer you seek the kingdom, the more clear it becomes to you what it is you are actually seeking. God has had to rearrange my priorities on numerous occasions, by showing me that something I thought was crucial was actually trivial.
Steve: YHWH's script for each man and woman is not exactly the same. Some intertwine, some are opposed, some are in harmony. We have no idea YHWH's reason for doing what He does because our wisdom is foolishness. We can just accept that He is the Absolute. Literally.
Caleb: Steven wrote, "Paul had a dual citizenship and, he claims, 'upheld the Torah'." When I talk about the present government structure we are under, I am not talking about dual-citizenship.
Steve: Then let's go into detail on Paul. Paul was a CITIZEN of a very corrupt ROME. Yet he claimed also citizenship of Heaven.
According to certain opinions on the first commandment Paul cannot be both a CITIZEN of ROME and a Citizen of Heaven. That would be, in some's opinion, 'serving two masters'. I have given scripture and examples to prove this false.
Caleb: In my own case I no longer claim allegiance to what you think of as "the government".
Steve: I don't know your situation. But I do know what one can claim and what is reality might not always be the same. You might not claim allegiance, but do you not use the infrastructure which is REGULATED by the GOVT? SCRIP, TAXES when in their realm, UTILITIES CONTRACTS, INTERNET LAWS (Try breaking one and see what happens)? I am just asking, I don't know your status. To me, to follow this line of thinking out to it's end one would not engage in SCRIP. Some say it's OK to engage in false weights and measures 'under protest' but I ask if that reasoning is true, then one could use that justification for anything. I say these things such as FRNS are part of the punishment, just as CONTRACTS for our basics of POWER, etc.
Caleb: But isn't this rebellion, or anarchy? The short anser is: absolutely not. I submit that you do not understand the nature of the system we are under today.
Steve: I disagree that I do not understand the system we live under today.
Caleb: The modern Civil (Roman) law is based entirely upon consent.
Steve: Acquired by threat to life and well being. How do you think Rome operated? Babylon? Assyria? There is nothing new under the sun!
I am not sure if you are familiar with American history but the FEDS won the Civil War and conquered America. They, or rather YHWH, did this
with force.
Caleb: They are constantly asking you to sign forms because they need your consent. Even when they drag you into COURT for no DRIVER's LICENSE, the JUDGE must get your consent to punish you.
Steve: I have seen people go to jail with out consenting to the JUDGE. You don't consider jail punishment? I have seen people pay $$$ to get their vehicles out of impound, you don't think that is punishment??
Caleb: People are confused about just how they go about getting your approval, so they cannot imagine that they are the one who gave the JUDGE the rope with which he hanged them. You volunteered in, so you can volunteer out. Simple as that.
Steve: Again, I have seen people go to jail with out consenting to the JUDGE. You don't consider jail punishment? I have seen people pay $$$ to get their vans out of impound, you don't think that is punishment??
Caleb: There is lots of advice about what is involved in unvolunteering, and much of it does not work. Thus your claim that, "the alleged cure is no better than the punishment!"
Steve: agreed
Caleb: this misses the central point. If you are IN the present evil system, it is because you have agreed to it.
Steve: I do not agree with what you are saying because if I threaten somebody and they agree, then it is not an agreement.
But that's just me. Maybe you see it differently.
Caleb: If you do not see it as evil, that reflects your own heart.
Steve: I do see 'it' as evil. "it" reflects YHWH's plan taken at face value in the Torah concerning what will be our punishments.
Caleb: If you think you can obey evil rulers and still obey Torah, that also reflects the state of your heart.
Steve: This is your opinion. 1 Sam 12 instructs one can indeed serve YHWH while also shouldering the burden of 1 Sam 8 style GOVT. The book of Daniel refutes your claim squarely.
Caleb: If you can agree that there is enough wrong with the system that you would refer to it as BONDAGE, then why would you voluntarily remain within it?
Steve: If you are going to go along with this line of thinking are you willing to apply this level of voluntary action to say..... SCRIP, CONTRACTS... all furnished by that which you claim to not be SUBJECT to? Do you see my point? Either all of this is forced upon us by the situation OR we agree to every single thing that happens. I can go with this if you are willing to go all the way down the line with this thought. There is no being just a little pregnant. I submit to you that all of this BONDAGE is punishment and fulfillment of scripture.
Caleb: Just because others have not entirely escaped, or the path they have chosen does not appear correct does not give you any excuse to voluntarily submit to evil.
Steve: Again, are we going to go all the way with this thinking? If so, then one is guilty even for using SCRIP, the cornerstone of the CORP. SCRIP is given is power by CONTRACTS. We perpetuate it's power by using them.
Caleb: The foundation of all government in the former British Empire is the Torah.
Steve: And true to YHWH's Torah it was taken over for breach of Torah!
Caleb: No one can force you to accept the optional add-on of Roman civil law, especially when implemented in a manner contradictory to Torah.
Steve: Again, we need to be clear on what you consider "force". BTW, accepting the punishment of Torah is not contradictory to Torah.
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: 42. Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Part of the humbling of the uncircumsized heart is to bear the burden of our punishment of BONDAGE. How does it feel to you to have to feed your family with SCRIP, to get TAXED for a piece of bread?
Caleb: Beyond "Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal," etc. no one can tell you anything regarding how to live your life.
Steve: Daniel is a great example of this
Caleb: Now you can volunteer into any association for your common good, and that group can write any rules it pleases to govern its members. This is a fundamental right under the British common law. The people masquerading as "the government" are just such a group. They are a purely voluntary association (several in fact), but to keep their charade going, they do their best to convince you that it is not voluntary.
Steve: I assert that YHWH has appointed these terrorists per Lev 26, Duet 28 as punishment. He has given them power of RULE and arms to ensure punishment.
Caleb: A related thought is to do a search on the word "government" in your KJV. Now from all the verses that come up tell me, which government is it that scripture commands us to obey? Hint: you will not find a single verse speaking of a government different from the one at the end of all my posts. Scripture knows no other government! Even the church's beloved Romans 13 does not specify who the "higher powers" are. It never says we must pay taxes. Perhaps you've been listening to too many 501(c)3 preachers, and their modern Talmudic translations. Paul never says to obey the Roman authorities. Period.
Steve: I disagree. If they are in power, then YHWH put them there. Nebuchadnezzer had to learn the hard way. He was punished.. Daniel 5:21b... until he knew that the Most High Elohim rules in the kingdom of men, and that He appoints over it whomever He will. Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of YHWH, like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes. There are more scriptures that spell this fact out.
Caleb: Steven wrote, "what is Paul doing telling these people to obey this corrupt ROME of which Romans 13 speaks of? The Rome of Paul's time, is much worse than the one we have now, IMO." Well I just answered that.
Steve: No. I just showed you were YHWH appoints all higher powers, even non-Israelite kings or rulers. Now, Paul a ROMAN CITIZEN wrote Romans 13 when he was SUBJECT politically to.... who? Rome!!
Caleb: But I especially find it curious how many authorities we have on what life was like under the Romans. Many 501(c)3 preachers told me just how bad it was. They also told me that the Romans crucified JEEEZUS. Read the accounts yourself. Pilate upheld the law until the bitter end. He tried time and again to free an innocent man. Then finally, he washed his hands of the matter and told the Pharisees to do with him as they thought best. He never sanctioned Messiah's death.
Steve: EXACTLY! See what you are not saying but must agree with, if you will. If Yahushua was preaching against ROME, ROME would have found cause to punish him! Yahushua never claimed to be King of that world. If Yahushua was Moshiach ben David then his servants would fight! The Jews set him up CLAIMING that Yahushua spoke about not paying taxes. They set him up CLAMIING he pronounced himself King. It was all fine when they expected him to be a military victor. Even lined the path with palm branches. But when he went to the mount of Olives there was no military defeat of Rome as they were expecting of Moshiach ben David. They turned on him afterwards.
Caleb: How about Acts 25:16? "we Romans are not in the habit of handing over any who are accused of a crime before they have met their accusers face to face and have had a chance of defending the accusation." Sounds like a lawful system to me.
Steve: Because Yahushua was not speaking against Rome. These were acusations against him by the Jews to get him nailed.
Caleb: The same preachers who put it down are the ones who proclaim how wonderful it is to be able to worship in a "free" country. Yeah, "free" just so long as they keep their opinions to themselves. As the Amish are now finding out, religious convictions don't count for a hill of beans once they slightly inconvenience the corporation.
Steve: Yes, YHWH will accomplish what He intends with all of this.
Caleb: Babylon of Daniel's day is a similar case, though as an eye-witness to the horrors you may want to claim otherwise . Daniel 16:12-15 shows us that the King could not even change his own law when he wanted to.
Steve: No, no and no....You are confusing the issue. Daniel 6:6:7 (there is no Ch. 16) All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions. 6:8 Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not. 6:9 Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree.
You are confusing the issue. The King did add a new law. The King's underlings made the claim the law cannot be changed is once he writes it.. but that is not true either. The King, after Daniel is rescued, writes a new law that says basically, "anyone who speaks against Daniel's God is toast!"
Caleb: How does that compute with your so-called government that can and does change its statutes daily?
Steve: Perfectly: Read Daniel 6:25-26 wherein the King adds a new law which undoes the law that written to set Daniel up!
:25 Then king Darius wrote unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you. 26 I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he [is] the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion [shall be even] unto the end.
Does this count as a change in statute? I think so very clearly.
Just like today, they write another LAW which overrides the last one. Nothing new under the sun.
Caleb: Now if Babylon was so evil, and Daniel was obeying the Torah while there, how come they had to write a new law to trap him?
Steve: uh.. because the underlings who were jealous were evil and wanted to entrap Daniel. Since Daniel was complient with all of BABYL'S Laws they had to add one that caused him to break his God's. Notice Daniel used a name given by him the GOVT. Babylon is a non-Torah GOVT put upon the Israelites for breaking the Torah.
Caleb: Or is it possible that Babylon of Daniel's day and Rome of Paul's day had a situation very much like the British common law where the government had very little say-so in your life? So those observing the Torah were free to do so, so long as they did no harm to another or their property.
Steve: By your reasoning, we have that now with the USA CORP.
Caleb: Now "juris-diction" is from Latin, the language of Rome, and it has always and only meant "oath - spoken". So the Roman civil law has only ever applied to those under oath.
Steve: Paul made this oath then. Which brings us back to why would Paul do this if it was a breach of the first commandment, given that he was one who upheld the Torah?
Caleb: Today, when you sign your DRIVER's LICENSE or your tax form, you swear that oath and come under their voluntary jurisdiction. Guess what? From the moment you sign, it is no longer voluntary.
Steve: Paul must have known this when he accepted Roman Citizenship (i.e. - used it past the age of consent).
Caleb: Can't you see the huge gulf that separates "obeying the higher powers" when they carry out their lawful duties, such as punishing evildoers (Torah breakers) as Romans 13 states so clearly, and voluntaring by oath (contrary to Torah) into a private jurisdiction whose rules REQUIRE you to violate God's Law?
Steve: Listen to what you are saying. Now consider Paul must have made the oath you claim gets into their jurisdiction. Now consider Romans 13 and the Rome Paul made an oath to join. Big red flags come up to complete your reasoming. One big one, if what Paul did was incorrect, then why did not Yahushua tell him point blank when he appeared to him face to face? Do you see the hole in the logic here???? Another question is, IF taking this oath is wrong, then why did not Paul know it? If we are to believe that Paul really was one who upholds Torah and excelled above his pears in matters concerning the Torah.... It just don't match up what you are saying about oaths and Citizenship being wrong. I am sure Paul knew he was in exile seeing as Rome did not get dismantled and the Throne of David did not get established.
Caleb: Something like a DRIVER's LICENSE is not merely a contract that a few lines can be changed on to make palatable. By signing it you become a beneficiary and lose all common law rights. You agree not to just what is on the paper in front of you but to all Acts of the legislature that regulate DRIVERS, including any future changes. This ain't a simple private contract like electricity, and you violate Torah several times over the moment you sign it.
Steve: I addressed this in my response above.
Caleb: Now what could be more just than a system that lets you choose your BONDAGE?
Steve: YHWH chose to set up a GOVT after the Civil war that forces one to comply with threat of life and prison. You consider that a free-will choice, when one is coerced with threats??? Check out American history about the Civil war. There was no choice. The FEDS won.
Caleb: If you are an evildoer, needing close monitoring by Big Brother, he is right there eager to help and control you. But if you already observe Torah, and need no additional instructions, you can choose another voluntary association to link up with, or none at all. In the present system, people get to choose the system of government that is best for them. It is sad testimony to the state of society that most gladly choose the present captivity. But then, the ancient Israelites longed to returnt to Egypt as well, so what has changed?
Steve: In exile, we have no choice. We are under the punishments just as YHWH said until the 4th Kingdom is destroyed and Daniel 12:1 come in. You have not, as of yet, shown where this has been fulfilled. Please do. It will make a big difference.
Caleb: Finally, based on my own experience, the biggest mistake you are making is by focusing on the destination, rather than the journey itself. What are we doing here on the earth anyway? Is life not a series of choices that demonstrate whether we will follow Yahweh or not? If the choice to follow Him is easy, then what do we prove? Rather, "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." Acts 14:22
Steve: If you don't consider COPS, TAXES on even our basic food, etc. as tribulation... then I don't know what to tell you. On another note, I believe Paul was speaking about the Kingdom which is neither here nor there but INSIDE you. It takes much tribulation to accept and digest that we are not this flesh body that cannot please YHWH.
Caleb: All men of faith in scripture paid the price of obedience. Those who sit around awaiting the final results can only hope that, like Lot, they will be snatched out of the fire at the last minute.
Steve: Again, you claim I am doing nothing based on your opinion. You have not shown me where Daniel 12:1 has been fulfilled. You have
not shown me where the messianic prophecies have been fulfilled that herald the Kingdom. By your own words you said Rome requires an oath to join, yet you have ignored that Paul must have made this oath at some time while also claiming Citizenship to Heaven. According to your theology this is impossible. Don't you see why I am skeptical of this position with these glaring items still left unanswered???
Caleb: "Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end" Isaiah 9:7
Steve: Where is this peace? It will come when Moshiach ben David is established.
Peace to you, Caleb. I do wish you the best. You are doing YHWH's will because that is what He has set out for you. |
Edited by - BatKol on 09 Mar 2004 17:25:31 |
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Caleb
Advanced Member
Philippines
209 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2004 : 18:26:49
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Dear Steven,
I have addressed many of your claims head-on, but you continue to duck around them by appealing back to the same few points. You appear to be only interested in justifying your present position in Babylon and why you are making no efforts to get out. If that is the case, why do you devote so much energy to a forum whose members have the opposite goals to you?
"I have seen people go to jail with out consenting to the JUDGE."
No you have not. This reminds me of the Christians who tell me that I am sinning if I don't waltz on down to the Transport office and sign and pay for the benefit of being regulated on the common ways. Any discussion of Law with these people is pointless, because their understanding of Law is zero, and they want it to stay that way. Yet they don't hesitate to give out legal advice such as "get a license" or "pay taxes" because "its the law".
Just because you do not understand HOW your friends consented to be fined or jailed does not mean they did not consent. Six months ago I was in COURT for no license and I thought I knew enough also. Yet they jailed and fined me. You can read all about it on a thread on these forums entitled "Arrested again, and again". You will see that after the trial I was incredibly frustrated. I thought these guys were nothing but a band of crooks. I was sure I had not consented.
Today it is rather embarrassing to see just how much ignorance is revealed by what I wrote. But I will leave my ignorance on display for the edification of the ecclesia. I now know for a fact that by THEIR rules, I consented! My frustration came from thinking I understood their rules when I actually did NOT. But what did I do about this? I took responsibility upon myself to figure out what I had done wrong. I soon found out and I repented (changed my mind). It does no good to blame others. We can't control them. We can only change ourselves. Surprisingly, I now agree that their rules are totally just. But if you will not take responsibility to learn the rules, you can only blame the rules, and by doing so remain in BONDAGE.
You have now confessed that you will do evil if criminals simply threaten you sufficiently. The mere threat of jail and fines appears to be sufficient for you, as it is for most. So you will go and sign that DRIVER's LICENSE under duress, giving them all the evidence they need that you consent. Your appeal to Daniel has worn very thin by now. Apparently, because of Israel's sins 2730 years ago, we have all just been marking time. The rest of scripture is on hold until Daniel 12:1 is fulfilled. No one disagrees that it has not yet been fulfilled. We simply don't see how this gives us a pass from paying the cost of obedience.
"1 Sam 12 instructs one can indeed serve YHWH while also shouldering the burden of 1 Sam 8 style GOVT."
When you claim that today we are under a I Samuel 8 style government (or one similar to Babylon or Rome) you are either ignoring or simply cannot see the essential difference. All three of these were lawful governments. The modern ALL CAPS BEAST is not. Do you know what a lawful government is?
"Paul was a CITIZEN of a very corrupt ROME."
"Now consider Paul must have made the oath you claim gets into their jurisdiction."
I find it interesting you still don't hesitate to claim you know how corrupt Rome was compared to today. Please share the source of your depth of insight into this. Paul was a citizen by birth of the Roman Empire. This is radically different from being a CITIZEN by oath of the modern BEAST you think of as government. If you don't know the difference, you have not done your homework. Or do you not want to know the difference as that would cause your argument to crumble? We do have a lawful government today, founded on the British common law. You have sworn oaths to a DIFFERENT government, NOT the one that corresponds to I Samuel 8, or ancient Babylon or Rome.
"Does this count as a change in statute? I think so very clearly."
You avoid acknowledging this difference by claiming that Darius changed his statute. For starters, this completely contradicts the scriptures I quoted (though you are correct that it is chapter 6, not 16). All Darius could do was AFTER the thirty days were up, write another new law. He could NOT undo his previous law. If you do not know how law works, you will not be able to see how completely different this is from changing a statute. If you desire to be free, you will learn the difference. If you love your BONDAGE, as most do, you will continue to contradict the very book of scripture you are appealing to for you justification.
Until you can distinguish between lawful government, whose authority we are bound to obey, and a voluntary association we can leave at any time, you will continue to beat other horses to death such as FRNs. Your all-or-nothing approach reflects a misunderstanding of how we get caught in the "voluntary" association. This approach also conveniently justifies your choice of the ALL. Yes FRNs are a part of the debt-bondage system. No, the use of them does not make you a CITIZEN of that system. I agree it is preferable not to use them at all. However, those in bondage demand that they be paid with the very debt instruments that have them in bondage. If someone has willingly chosen bondage, are you now commiting evil by having dealings with them? Your all-or-nothing logic would say yes.
So long as you demand that God's kingdom be set up on a separate planet (just to make sure there are NO connections with the present SYSTEM) there is really nothing anyone can say to you. On the other hand, if you are also chafing under the burden of BONDAGE and want help in plotting an exit strategy, then the ecclesia on these forums has much to offer in the way of insights an encouragement. We have each been shown portions of the kingdom. We have ideas of how to achieve some aspects of it. We are living other parts of it in the here and now.
When Yahshua said that the kingdom is within you, He meant that it is achieved in each one of us separately. It does not occur all at once when an army descends from heaven and burns all FRNs (or INTERNET contracts). Those alive two thousand years ago could have the kingdom fully realized in their own lives, and we can today. On another level, there will one day (soon) be enough of us living this reality that it will be noticeable on a much larger scale. Don't confuse the two, and don't get caught in the trap of believing that scripture is limited to only one realization of the kingdom.
Steven, I do see you as one searching for Truth or I would not take the time I have to answer your points. But you are too busy defining how things must be, such as by saying that we WILL remain in BONDAGE until Daniel 12:1 comes to pass. This does not leave open the possibility that the scriptures are far more intricate that your pitiful little brain (and mine  ) can fully grasp. When you discuss Messiah ben Yoseph and Messiah ben David you start to wrestle with these intricacies. But you have not yet reached a reasonable conclusion on which to base the rest of your thinking. Like the Jews of 30AD, you are presently demanding only a Messiah who fits into your mould.
While the rest of us in this ecclesia may argue about how to pronounce His name, we all agree that we have found Him. You stand accused before this honorable court of denying the Messiah you once knew. This is a serious charge, not because we say so, but because Yahweh says so. We would like to resolve your case before it goes to trial. Jail and fines will look like a mighty good deal compared with the punishment you face if found guilty.
Oh yes, and the ever-increasing peace you fail to see is within us, just like His government. Once it is in your heart, you will see it as well.
"Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end"
Isaiah 9:7 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2004 : 19:29:14
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Caleb said: I have addressed many of your claims head-on, but you continue to duck around them by appealing back to the same few points.
Steve: Then let's focus on just these and clarify them to their essense. I could easily say the same about your replies as well. So let's condense this discussion down to just these points instead of scattering them. Let's on our next post pick three points and stay on them and give each other three rebuttals per point. This way we can be clear. Agreed?
Steve said: "I have seen people go to jail with out consenting to the JUDGE."
Caleb: No you have not.
Steve: Yes I have. I have seen a COP jerk up a dear friend who did not consent to a JUDGE, or the COP and was in jail before seeing the JUDGE (in chains) and back in after seeing the JUDGE. I know he did not traverse. More than once I have seen this same set up, one friend did end up pleading guilty in the end but not before he was already in jail. To my knowledge he did not traverse up to that point. I have heard tell from others that some have been in jail up to something past sixteen days or so with out consenting. I can imagine there are many more who have been kept longer. So I have seen folks go to jail without consenting to a JUDGE.
Caleb: You have now confessed that you will do evil if criminals simply threaten you sufficiently. The mere threat of jail and fines appears to be sufficient for you, as it is for most.
Steve: You are labeling it evil to have a driver's license. I am not. I agree with it being just
if one is engaging in activity that is regulated. As you might say, not everything is bad.
Caleb: So you will go and sign that DRIVER's LICENSE under duress, giving them all the evidence they need that you consent.
Steve: Actually, in my case, there was absolutely no duress. I did not even give it a second thought seeing as at the time I had not been studying these issues at this level. Again, I will refer you to the Civil War. Where was the choice when the FEDS won the war? This sytem in USA was set up by the victors, no?
Caleb: Your appeal to Daniel has worn very thin by now.
Steve: Then you won't mind making short work of me if we zero in on Daniel because I do not see where we have gone into detail. I think you are very premature in your statement. Here we go:
Caleb: Apparently, because of Israel's sins 2730 years ago, we have all just been marking time. The rest of scripture is on hold until Daniel 12:1 is fulfilled.
Steve: Not at all. That is not what I am saying. Don't you literally see chapter 11 unfolding on an historical time line? It is all heading toward 12:1. 11:45 says of the end of the 4th King, "He will pitch the tents of his palace between the seas and the holy, coveted mountain, there he will come to his end and none will help him." 12:1 "At that time Michael will stand, the great prince who stands in support of the members of your people, and ther will be a time of trouble such as ther had never been since there was a nation until that time. But at that time your people will escape; everything that is found written in the this book will occur."
Please comment on this statement: If we are looking for an escape and an enterance of the Moshiach, look for these events in 11:45 and 12:1. Here is where the escape is said to come. You say this is thin, then address it head on and tell me why my above assertion concerning these scriptures is incorrect.
Caleb: No one disagrees that it has not yet been fulfilled.
Steve: Fine, then tell me why it is wrong to believe that escape will not come before 12:1 given the scriptures of 11:35 and 12:1
Caleb: We simply don't see how this gives us a pass from paying the cost of obedience.
Steve: I did not say there is a pass on obedience. Torah is expected to be followed even while under the oppression of the 4th King that has not yet been destroyed.
I'll let you respond to this so we can both feel our points are being understood. I do not feel we have reasoned together on the above in the detail it deserves.
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2004 : 20:36:29
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Lawful Govt
1. Steve asserts: "1 Sam 12 instructs one can indeed serve YHWH while also shouldering the burden of 1 Sam 8 style GOVT."
Caleb: When you claim that today we are under a I Samuel 8 style government (or one similar to Babylon or Rome) you are either ignoring or simply cannot see the essential difference. All three of these were lawful governments. The modern ALL CAPS BEAST is not. Do you know what a lawful government is?
Steve responds:
A) According to Torah, an Israelite Monarchy wherein Torah is the Law of the land. Rome or Babylon do not quaify if my definition is correct. Am I wrong, and if so why?
B) Please explain why Babylon and Rome were lawful while this GOVT is not.
2. Steve asserts: "Paul was a CITIZEN of a very corrupt ROME."
"Now consider Paul must have made the oath you claim gets into their jurisdiction."
Caleb: I find it interesting you still don't hesitate to claim you know how corrupt Rome was compared to today. Please share the source of your depth of insight into this.
Steve responds:
A) http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/caesar_julius.shtml
Highlights:
"His actions undermined the republic and paved the way for a system of monarchy headed by emperors (he was not himself a Roman emperor)."
"Julius Caesar's family was socially distinguished: its members were patrician, and claimed descent from Venus and Aeneas"
"Massive bribery with money borrowed from the rich and influential ex-consul Crassus also procured for him the politically important office of Pontifex Maximus in 63. In 62 he divorced Pompeia, in the wake of a scandal that took place at a religious festival at his house."
"Back in Rome in 60, Caesar made a pact with Pompey and Crassus, who had grievances against the senate and needed a co-operative consul. They used bribery to get him elected consul for 59 (this pact is known as the 'first triumvirate' - a term without ancient authority)."
"But the territory he won was also systematically destroyed - in order to increase his personal wealth and glory. Reportedly one million Gauls were killed and another million enslaved in pursuit of this aim."
Caleb, how does the above qualify as "lawful" when compared with Torah?
Caleb: Paul was a citizen by birth of the Roman Empire. This is radically different from being a CITIZEN by oath of the modern BEAST you think of as government.
Steve: I am a US citizen by birth just like Paul. I did not fill out a birth certificate when I as born, my parents did it. Paul's citizenship is from his parents, just like my citizenship is. My parents got for me a SS# when I was not even of age. I did not make an oath, to the best of my knowledge my mom did. However the citizenship came into effect by just my using the number AFTER the age of consent with no protest. Paul's abiding by the lex romana without protesting the citizenship after he past the age of consent would LEGALLY put him under the lex romana, no? In this I see a relation between Paul's citizenship from his parents and mine. No protest after the age of consent.
Caleb: If you don't know the difference, you have not done your homework. Or do you not want to know the difference as that would cause your argument to crumble?
Steve: Show me how my above statement is incorrect.
Caleb: We do have a lawful government today, founded on the British common law. You have sworn oaths to a DIFFERENT government, NOT the one that corresponds to I Samuel 8, or ancient Babylon or Rome.
Steve: Please show me where Rome and Bablyon are lawful GOVTS as laid out in Torah. You have not done so thus far.
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Edited by - BatKol on 09 Mar 2004 20:50:20 |
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Caleb
Advanced Member
Philippines
209 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 04:16:39
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Dear Steven,
You ask valid questions and I will take the time to answer them. However, I will be on the road for the next few days (testing out my freedom, as an intentional side-effect) so I'm not sure just when I'll have the chance to do justice with my response.
"Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end"
Isaiah 9:7 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 05:36:50
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Caleb, Please be safe. I do pray for you and yours the very best.
It does mean quite a bit to me that your are spending the time with me on these issues (and that goes for you too Bro Robert & Sis Kathleen, Daniel-Jacob, and all else who spends their precious time
contributing to these discussions).
Peace,
S
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BillM
Regular Member
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2004 : 19:52:45
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Does anyone know of the Peoples-rights.com website.I have used their approach with a little success. They send everything back to the authorities so "service of process" is never complete (sop). This is the first step by which they establish jurisdiction over you.
In a neutral letter sent back with all documentation , you are establishing a non-fiction man. I place under my Christian name - flesh and blood of God.(the letter address and return address are the same when sent back- ucc law states letters opened by mistake for wrong man should be sent back to originator)
The web-site uses "it ain't me" style of teaching (a man of God compared to a fiction).
Has anyone used this approach of having the authorities not establish jurisdiction by cancelling the "service of process" ?
If not ; maybe it is something to read , or have discussion of.
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 06:16:05
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Greetings Bill and welcome to the group. For what it is worth, I have seen a 'trial' wherein the 'accused' was one who adhered to the 'it's not me' argument. When addressed by the JUDGE, the brother (in chains, not there on consent) did not respond. After the name that was given to the COPS upon arrest was called out and not responded to by the brother, the bailiff pointed his finger at the brother and said, 'that's him'. It seems, on the JUDGES end concerning the COURT that was enough to satisfy maxim 'the body being present cures the question of identity' or something to that effect.
Steve
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Edited by - BatKol on 11 Mar 2004 10:16:45 |
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God is Love
Senior Member
uSA
53 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2004 : 21:42:01
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Hello everyone,
I hope you all are experiencing great blessings from the Father.
I am writing to throw some additional comments into the mix.
First off, when a corporate birth certificate is made, that is the first step to an undermining of the natural man/woman's birthright of state citizenship and natural rights. Next comes the ssn. After that we have the preschool enrollment, school enrollment, w-4, driver's license, jury duty summons, accepted presentments, and any agency contracts. We are ruled by assent. We assent by unconditional signature. Our state citizenship is undermined due to most of our parents' ignorance regarding how these agencies work. The power is in the signature, and we are taught from a very early age, indoctrinated if you will, to sign our names unconditionally. Signing a negotiable instrument unconditionally activates police powers of agency. God's laws and Public Law are in synch. Democratic public policy is not in synch with God's Law. In essence, we are taught to hand over our power via unconditional signature. This is why we should teach our children to sign anything "without prejudice" ucc 1-207, which reserves all rights. Otherwise our natural rights are sacrificed for privileged civil liberties. Now what I would like to find out is how difficult is it to revoke or rescind our unconditional signatures on agency contracts? If our signature is our power, and our property, then shouldn't there be remedy to ignorance of such facts?
In regards to Daniel chapters 11 and 12, I have the following opinions/beliefs:
Daniel chapter 11 verses 44 and on have yet to be fulfilled. They are in the process of being fulfilled. Rivalry between the powers that be (king of the north and king of the south) are via various means; military, economic, and others. The conflict yet to come is spoken of here: ""But there will be reports that will disturb him (king of the north), out of the sunrising and out of the north, and he will certainly go forth in a great rage in order to annihilate and to devote many to destruction. And he will plant his palatial tents between [the] grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will have to come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him."
The Soviet Union was disbanded at the end of 1991. At this time the king of the north experienced a serious setback. I will not speculate on who the new king will be (or is). We do know the king of the north will set out on a campaign to destroy many.
Revelation has something to say as well on this matter. Chapter 16 verse 14 reads: "They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of YHWH the Almighty." verse 16: "And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har-Ma-ged'on."
Chapter 18 verses 2 through 8: "And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: "She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird! For because of the wine of the anger of her fornication all the nations have fallen [victim], and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the traveling merchants of the earth became rich due to the power of her shameless luxury."
And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and YHWH has called her acts of injustice to mind. Render to her even as she herself rendered, and do to her twice as much, yes, twice the number of things she did; in the cup in which she put a mixture put twice as much of the mixture for her. To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For in her heart she keeps saying, 'I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning.' That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because YHWH God, who judged her, is strong."
Chapter 16 verse 12: "And the sixth one poured out his bowl upon the great river Eu-phra'tes, and its water was dried up, that the way might be prepared for the kings from the rising of the sun."
We all know who runs the world according to Executive Orders. The one who runs the show is Babylon the Great. Her destruction is foreshadowed by the above scripture (16:12) when the bowl of YHWH's wrath is poured out on the symbolic river of Euphrates. This is preparation for the return of the kings from the rising of the sun.
Isaiah chapter 41 verse 2: ""Who has roused up [someone] from the sunrise? [Who] proceeded in righteousness to call him to His feet, to give before him the nations, and to make [him] go subduing even kings? [Who] kept giving [them] like dust to his sword, so that they have been driven about like mere stubble with his bow?"
chapter 46 verses 10 and 11: "the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying, 'My own counsel will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do'; the One calling from the sunrising a bird of prey, from a distant land the man to execute my counsel. I have even spoken [it]; I shall also bring it in. I have formed [it], I shall also do it."
The kings, YHWH and Yahushua will return and destroy Babylon the Great.
Revelation chapter 17 verse 16: "And the ten horns that you saw [kings ruling in the time of the end], and the wild beast [United Nations], these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire." verse 17 tells us why the beast destroys the harlot: "For YHWH put [it] into their hearts to carry out [their] one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of YHWH will have been accomplished."
The king of the north is one of these rulers who take part in the destruction of Babylon the Great.
The destruction of religion (replaced by science: evolutionary, medical, psychiatric, etc.) is one of the final planks of the communist manifesto.
In Daniel's time, the grand sea was the Mediterranean, and the holy mountain was Zion, where YHWH's temple once was. It is predicted that the king of the north will wage a campaign against YHWH's people. The area between the grand sea and the holy mountain is a symboic spiritual area where those predicted to rule as kings with YHWH and his Son exist in a spiritual sense. These special ones hope to rule with YHWH's son in the heavenly Mount Zion over the earth. They will have become separate from the majority of mankind, and alienated from YHWH.
Isaiah chapter 57 verse 20: ""But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire."
Hebrews chapter 12 verse 22: "But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living YHWH, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels,"
Revelation chapter 14 verse 1: "And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads."
Ezekiel also prophesied an attack on YHWH's people in the times of the end. Chapter 38 verse 14: ""Therefore, prophesy, O son of man, and you must say to God, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord YHWH has said: "Will it not be in that day when my people Israel are dwelling in security that you will know [it]?" verse 16: "And you will be bound to come up against my people Israel, like clouds to cover the land. In the final part of the days it will occur, and I shall certainly bring you against my land, for the purpose that the nations may know me when I sanctify myself in you before their eyes, O Gog."' verse 15: "And you will certainly come from your place, from the remotest parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great congregation, even a numerous military force." verse 4: "And I shall certainly turn you around and put hooks in your jaws and bring you forth with all your military force, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in perfect taste, a numerous congregation, with large shield and buckler, all of them handling swords;"
chapter 39 verse 2: "And I will turn you around and lead you on and cause you to come up from the remotest parts of the north and bring you in upon the mountains of Israel."
The hostilities are initiated against YHWH's people by Gog of Magog (Satan), however, he will not succeed in destroying YHWH's people. Instead, YHWH will annihilate Gog's forces.
Galatians chapter 6 verse 16: "And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of YHWH."
Revelation chapter 7 verse 9: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."
John chapter 10 verse 16: ""And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."
chapter 17 verse 15 and 16: ""I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."
1 John chapter 5 verse 19: "We know we originate with YHWH, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one."
There are two groups mentioned in the Scriptures that will be targets of Gog, the Israel of YHWH and the great crowd of other sheep.
Ezekiel chapter 38 verse 12: ""It will be to get a big spoil and to do much plundering, in order to turn your hand back upon devastated places reinhabited and upon a people gathered together out of the nations, [one] that is accumulating [spiritual] wealth and property, [those] who are dwelling in the center of the earth."
Gog seeks to claim YHWH's people spiritually to complete his control of the human race. He will fail.
Ezekiel chapter 38 verse 11: "and you must say: "I shall go up against the land of open rural country. I shall come in upon those having no disturbance, dwelling in security, all of them dwelling without wall, and they do not have even bar and doors."" verse 18: ""'And it must occur in that day, in the day when Gog comes in upon the soil of Israel,' is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord YHWH, 'that my rage will come up into my nose."
chapter 39 verse 4: "On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your bands and the peoples that will be with you. To birds of prey, birds of every sort of wing, and the wild beasts of the field I will give you for food."'"
All who turn on YHWH's people will come to a bad end.
It's getting late so I'll try to write more later. Please feel free to share your opinions on this information. I'd enjoy hearing other opinions.
May YHWH bless you all!
Mount Fuji----"without equal" |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 11:32:18
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God is Love said: Daniel chapter 11 verses 44 and on have yet to be fulfilled. They are in the process of being fulfilled.
Steve: I agree 100%. This scripture deals with some more detail concerning the 'escape from bondage' as well. This has not been fulfilled either:
Jeremiah 30:3 ‘For behold, the days are coming,’ says YHWH, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says YHWH. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’" ........ 8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’ Says YHWH of hosts, ‘That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them. 9 But they shall serve YHWH their Elohim, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them. 10 ‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says YHWH, ‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid. 11 For I am with you,’ says YHWH, ‘to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
If you do not see the re-instituted Throne of David, then the bondage is still here. The houses of Yisrael and Yahudah have not yet been united, Melek Moshiach ben David has not yet come. Very simple.
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Edited by - BatKol on 24 Mar 2004 12:21:17 |
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Caleb
Advanced Member
Philippines
209 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2004 : 05:42:52
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Giving CONsent
Dear Steven,
I'm back and have time to resume our discussion at last. Sorry for the delay. There is one good story to tell from my travels, but it will have to wait. I am going to tackle one issue at a time, and title each response accordingly, as I have this one.
"I have seen people go to jail with out consenting to the JUDGE."
I too went to jail believing I had not consented (or traversed). Then I described the hearing to someone who knew more than I did, and he pointed out how MANY times and ways I had consented. When we don't know all the rules, it is easy to misjudge what is really going on. Here is a list of ways we give consent without knowing it.
1) Silence. In their COURTs, silence equals agreement. So if you say nothing, the JUDGE or prosecutor puts words in your mouth and they stick. In Yahshua's trials, he was NOT silent in all cases. He did rebut certain statements.
2) Answering to THE NAME. Most people do this without even thinking. They might respond to MR. FICTION several times and after the hearing is over they will claim they never responded to it. This is a toughie, and the most common way any JUDGE gets jurisdiction. Every time I have been in a NEW ZEALAND COURT, the first question always had to do with THE NAME.
3) Arguing THE NAME. This one is even trickier because there is lots of advice out there about how to rebut THE NAME, and almost all of it is wrong. My observation is that if your discussion with the JUDGE regarding THE NAME goes beyond one sentence, he will peg it on you.
4) Failing to Object. This was one of my big mistakes. I would state the Truth and the JUDGE would say it didn't matter. I would then stand there fuming at how unrighteous he was being. He would sit there silently for 30 to 45 seconds before moving to the next issue. I didn't know he was giving me an opportunity to object! When I failed to do so, he took that as my consenting to how he had just trampled on me.
5) Answering a Question. When they ask you a question and you simply answer it, you are consenting to play the game on their terms. You are never required to answer a question. In any COURT case, the JUDGE's opening question should NEVER be answered. Instead, you should have your own opening statement that lays out what you want from this hearing. All questions after that should be responded to by going back to your original point or by answering with a question of your own.
6) Entering into Commerce. Another tricky area. Here is an example of how I was lured into this. My opening statement had kept me out of the JUDGE's jurisdiction. He then asked me, "So what do you want me to do?" I knew this was a trick question, because I knew he already knew what I wanted. But I did not know that he was inviting me back into his commercial sphere. I answered, "I want you to ..." What did I just do? I made him a contract offer! Commerce!!! Needless to say, rather than accepting my offer, he merely used it to take jurisdiction and do what he wanted to.
7) Failing to Behave Diplomatically. If you are not under the COURT's jurisdiction, you have diplomatic immunity. If you are certain of this, you will not be flustered by anything that goes on, and you will have no reason to get upset at the JUDGE. If anything makes you anxious or upset, it is because you believe the JUDGE has jurisdiction over you. If you believe he does, then he DOES! Your actions bear witness against you. The JUDGE will take silent notice of this and let your "actions speak louder than words".
8) Bearing False Witness. If you claim you are not MR. FICTION, but you have cards in your wallet, or accept mail at your house showing that you willingly accept the benefits a fictitious identity provides, the JUDGE will pay no attention when you try to distance yourself from that identity. Keep your hands clean.
9) Saying you Understand. Or forgetting to say that you DON'T understand. If you really understood their rules, you would be off the hook within moments, so obviously you have no idea what is going on. Make this point up front and stop everything. The JUDGE cannot move forward until you understand the charges, etc. Of course to Understand = to Stand Under.
10) Three Strikes rule. The JUDGE will test you by repeating a question, ignoring your point, or making a false claim up to three times. He is testing to see if you will stand your ground. Most of us are looking for the JUDGE to confirm that we are right, so he does just the opposite. If you give in to him, then you consent to his version of the truth. But if you KNOW you are right and you stand your ground, he will never push a point more than three times.
I'll add to these if I think of any more. Most people are not aware of half the things on this list that get used to obtain your consent. If you cannot tell now how your friends gave consent, then describe their hearing to me in a private message and I'll tell you where they slipped up.
There is not a single soul behind bars in the U.S. today who did not consent to being put there!
"Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end"
Isaiah 9:7 |
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Bondservant
Forum Administrator
382 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2004 : 07:45:58
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Every reader of this forum needs to print out and memorize what Caleb has written above. If there could be a one post summary of this entire topic, as well as many other topics within this forum, this is it.
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. - Mark 12:27 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2004 : 07:48:19
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Greetings Caleb,
Glad to hear you are back safe and sound. Thanks for your post. I am taking a break from the computer today and tomorrow so I'll post a response when get back on line. Real quick I will say that in the case of the brother I am talking about he was two or three days in jail before he even got to see a JUDGE or magistrate. He rebuted all presumptions put forth by the AGENT. The AGENT took him to jail wherein he rebuted the jailer's presumptions. He sat in jail for I think three days before there was any meeting with the JUDGE. So what I am talking about in this instance is that one can go to jail without traversing with the JUDGE. Now I am hearing that with the new LAWS passed in the USA if one is considered a "terrorist" or an "enemy combatant" then one can go to jail for quite some time before there is any JUDGE.
I look forward to spending some time with you on this thread again so look for me sometime Friday.
Peace to you,
Steve |
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Caleb
Advanced Member
Philippines
209 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2004 : 06:48:34
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What is a Lawful Government
Steven, I will address each of your points, but I must lay things out logically so that when I finally tell you how to deal with being charged as a terrorist, you will know why it works. We will start with explaining what a Lawful Government is, as this is the foundation on which all else rests.
It should not be surprising to learn that a Lawful Government is one which upholds the Law. The problem is, every whim of men gets called "law" these days, and people fall all over themselves trying to obey these ever-changing "laws". If you want to know what "the Gay 90's" means, you must know whether this refers to the 1890's or the 1990's. We accept word meanings today that bear no resemblance to their original meaning.
Webster's 1828 tells us what "law" really is:
LAW, n. [L. lex; from the root of lay. See lay. A law is that which is laid, set or fixed ...] 1. A rule, particularly an established or permanent rule, ...
"The Law" is unchanging, and for anything to be called "law" it must first be proven to be true for all time. So if a "government" claims they are upholding "law" and tomorrow they change that "law", we have our first clue that they are not a lawful government.
Torah is an example of law, but it is not the only codification of law we have. We can look to nature for "natural law" or to immemorial customs for "common law" or to other cultures and religions for their own codifications of "law". In general, a principle become regarded as "law" by being so obvious that it is against the best interest of the individual and the society to oppose it.
Take gravity as an example. If you trip and fall down, you might think it would be a good idea to change the law of gravity. Suppose you had the power to do so. For the first few minutes of floating around in the sky you would think you made a really fun choice. But before long you would realize that to get on with your life you will need to change the law back to what it was originally. Gravity is in your best interest, even when you have a lump on your head because of it.
The same mental excercise will quickly show why every society on earth has laws against murder. Change that law and pretty soon only one man is left standing. So we find that the principles of Torah, and specifically the ten commandments, are almost universally accepted and have been for millenia.
Thus a Lawful Government is not only one that upholds Torah (a specific law), but one that upholds Law in general. Paul (and Peter) have the clearest definition of Lawful Government that I know of:
"For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."
The beauty of Paul's definition is that it tells us exactly what the purpose of a Lawful Government is, and makes clear that this is a very limited role. Thus, any "government" that makes up new "laws" calling the feeding, sheltering and transporting of your family "evil" (and therefore under their control), is not a Lawful Government at all.
A look into the laws of Babylon or Rome will show that they were Lawful Governments. The Roman Civil Law that has been resurrected in our day was not used to govern the provinces, such as Judea. Read in scripture what the Romans were up to, and it was limited to punishing evildoers. The Pharisees were allowed to administer their extensive religious laws in this Roman province, just so long as there was no conflict between laws. Thus, the Pharisees could not administer capital punishment, as that was the jurisdiction of the Romans.
Are Lawful Governments perfect? No. Can they become corrupt? Of course. Do they ever overstep their bounds? Yes again, as Babylon did in Daniel's case. When a Lawful Government oversteps its bounds, we are required to obey God rather than men. However, this one transgression does not change the fact that it is a Lawful Government. The corruption of the men running it does not change the nature and intent of the government they run.
Why is this so important? America and all of the former British Empire were founded upon a Lawful Government whose law was the English common law. This government pre-dated the U.S. Constitution and Declaration of Independence. Those documents did not do away with or replace the English common law! As an example, a reading of the Maxims of Law will reveal that all our cherished freedoms in the Bill of Rights existed as part and parcel of English common law long before the first ten amendments to the Constitution were written.
Thus, there is a Lawful Government in existence in America (and throughout the former British Empire) right down to this very day! And this government does not issue driver's licenses.
In short, a Lawful Government is any government whose role is limited to protecting good men and women by punishing evildoers. The moment it takes on more responsibility than this, you have a different kind of government and the rules all change. The next subject we will tackle is how we get other forms of government, such as the Roman Civil Law or the laws of the Pharisees, and of course that beast which says we must all have its permission to "drive", that we were all taught to think of as "the government".
We were also taught that a government's jurisdiction is geographic in nature. The fact is that only a Lawful Government has its jurisdiction defined by geography. So a murderer is to be tried by the Lawful Government in the area the crime was committed. All other governments gain their jurisdiction through oaths, as they are merely voluntary associations.
When scripture speaks of obeying the higher powers, it is only Lawful Government it is referring to. Today we have a voluntary association masquerading as the Lawful Government, and every pastor I've ever met saying that we MUST obey it. The reality is, we can UNvolunteer from that association that enrolled us as newborn babes, if we simply know how.
"Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end"
Isaiah 9:7 |
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Manuel
Advanced Member
USA
762 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2004 : 12:38:19
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Greetings Caleb, In His name, Yahushuah,
Writting on Lawful governments, I can tell you that I know of Common Law Courts which have been established in the past leading to long incarceration terms enforced by the very same COURTS and its MEMBERS they where trying to stay out of.
Therefore, we must strive, and take these broken wings and learn to fly again (as a song goes). Now, understanding that there must be a Lawfull conscience somewhere that must be imbedded on this land mass, made In The Image of The Life Giver, is the challenge we, In Him, must reach out to.
The question is, where is that "rabbit hole" located, and understanding that our challenge comes from The Highest, how can we all gather and bring about this quest? Bare in mind that the quest has started, Father Willing.
His Grace and Light be upon all good men and their love ones,
Manuel |
Edited by - Manuel on 08 Apr 2004 12:39:18 |
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Manuel
Advanced Member
USA
762 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2004 : 13:36:48
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| "Oz didn't give nothing to the tin-man, that he didn't, didn't already have." |
Edited by - Manuel on 08 Apr 2004 13:38:00 |
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Caleb
Advanced Member
Philippines
209 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 20:26:36
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CALIFORNIA is a STATE of mind
Throughout history men have seldom been satisfied with a government that merely punishes evildoers. After all, there are towers to be built, not to mention roads, hospitals, schools, and sports arenas. SOMEBODY has got to take the lead on these, and it needs to be an institution capable of mustering the resources of many people. God already provided two such institutions, so it should not be surprising that responsibility for such works ends up in the hands of either the church or the government.
But a Lawful Government is not supposed to wield the sword for the purpose of "public works" projects and the like. Thus, at some point men came up with an idea for another form of government that was a voluntary association. This association could then be charged with responsibility for anything that the members wanted it to do on their behalf. This type of government is called a "state".
Bouvier's 1856 Dictionary traces the origins of the idea of a State:
quote:
STATE, condition of persons. This word has various acceptations. If we inquire into its origin, it will be found to come from the Latin status, which is derived from the verb stare, sto, whence has been made statio, which signifies the place where a person is located, stat, to fulfil the obligations which are imposed upon him.
2. State is that quality which belongs to a person in society, and which secures to, and imposes upon him different rights and duties in consequence of the difference of that quality.
3. Although all men come from the hands of nature upon an equality, yet there are among them marked differences. It is from nature that come the distinctions of the sexes, fathers and children, of age and youth, &c.
4. The civil or municipal laws of each people, have added to these natural qualities, distinctions which are purely civil and arbitrary, founded on the manners of the people, or in the will of the legislature. Such are the differences, which these laws have established between citizens and aliens, between magistrates and subjects, and between freemen and slaves; and those which exist in some countries between nobles and plebeians, which differences are either unknown or contrary to natural law.
5. Although these latter distinctions are more particularly subject to the civil or municipal law, because to it they owe their origin, it nevertheless extends its authority over the natural qualities, not to destroy or to weaken them, but to confirm them and to render them more inviolable by positive rules and by certain maxims. This union of the civil or municipal and natural law, form among men a third species of differences which may be called mixed, because they participate of both, and derive their principles from nature and the perfection of the law; ...
We learn several things from Bouvier. First, we see that the Roman Civil Law was indeed a "state", added on top of the natural law (i.e. the Lawful Government). Second, we see that the State is not intended to destroy or weaken the Lawful Government, but to improve upon it. Third we see that a State imposes additional rights and duties upon a person that a Lawful Government does not, because it cannot.
States come into being in one of two ways. The first is for a group of men to agree together to form an association that one must be a member of in order to enjoy its rights and be subject to its duties. Anyone who wants in must apply for membership, and anyone who wants out can simply cancel his membership. A neighborhood covenant that allows no dogs at all might be such a "state". Selling your house might seem like a lot to go through to cancel your membership, but you made the choice to buy into that neighborhood in the first place. So long as you can have dogs in a nearby neighborhood, your natural rights have not been violated.
Things get more complicated when this is done on a larger scale. The American "States" were formed by a majority vote. When a city annexes a suburb, it is also by majority vote. It might be 2/3 or 3/4 rather than 51%, but the point is that not everyone has to agree for the "state" to come into being. What happens to the dissenters? Are their natural rights now extinguished? Well, we've had it beat into our heads from early on that the answer to this question is: YES! Conform or else. America: love it or leave it. And since we believed this lie, we became slaves to a system we had no control over.
The Lawful Government has no ability to change "The Law", but the State can write any new "law" it wants, because it is really just a rule to govern its voluntary membership. Today we see the State changing its rules all the time, and the new rules get less and less beneficial to the members. But the members go along because they have been told that they have no option. They have been fooled into believing that they are "in" the State's jurisdiction because the boundaries of that jurisdiction just happen to coincide exactly with the boundaries of the Lawful Government - and the Lawful Government's jurisdiction is based on geography.
This situation, where the State is masquerading as the Lawful Government is, of course, deliberate. The State wants the absolute authority of a Lawful Government without being limited to merely punishing evildoers. Running a Lawful Government can be a downright boring proposition if everyone behaves themselves. But there are two things the State can never do, no matter how badly it wants to.
First, it can never do away with the Lawful Government. To do is to chop out its legs from under it. The State obtains its authority lawfully. Without a Lawful Government, the State is a completely illegitimate authority. It would create a situation of anarchy, where everyone had an equal claim to being the highest authority. This is the reason that there are Lawful Governments still in place all across America and the rest of the world.
Second, the State can never make its membership mandatory. Thus the need for you to fill out a form and sign at the bottom every time you deal with the State. Do you remember signing that form where you promised not to steal, kill or bear false witness? Neither do I. So even though a majority vote can bring a State into being, your mere presence within the boundaries where that State operates can never obligate you to obey its rules. They must set things up to protect the natural rights of the dissenters - and they have!
This is why it is so critical for you to know the many ways that they obtain your consent. It is tricky, and we are deliberately mislead, but if we can avoid giving consent the State's rules cannot be applied to us. That this is so is proven by the amount of effort they put into writing statutes that do not apply to us, yet sound like they do. This is the reason the State can only operate in FICTIONS, then ask the lawful man to stand surety for the ALL CAPS person. Why would they go to so much trouble unless there were unchanging principles of Law that they could not violate without destroying their own authority?
So if you are a man on the land in the Republic of California, you have a Lawful Government that will protect your natural rights. However, if you become a "citizen" or "resident" of the CALIFORNIA REPUBLIC, you voluntarily waive those rights and accept in their place whatever rights and duties the STATE deems appropriate for you.
Of course our parents did us the favor us registering us with the STATE on the day we were born, and the STATE schools taught us to be good little "citizens" from early on, and we were told that our house was our "residence", etc. By the time we reached "legal" age (18=6+6+6, why was this changed from 21=7+7+7?), and were now responsible for our actions, we already knew how to talk and behave in such a way as to give full consent to the STATE. The first time we tried to dissent, we faced fines or jail time to persuade us that we had no option but to conform. We simply had no idea of the many ways we were consenting while trying to disagree.
Now we do have one big advantage over the dissenters in Babylon or Rome. Today, the Lawful Government we are under is based on Torah - the King James Bible specifically. So as believers we can stand on the Truths of scripture and avoid the STATE altogether. We can't be thrown to the lions for failing to worship the emperor, or even the Queen. We can only be punished by the STATE (which is toothless by comparison) if we step into its jurisdiction. And if the STATE oversteps its bounds, we can appeal to the Lawful Government to bring the STATE back into line. Once we can distinguish between these two forms of government, we will see that the Perfect Law of Liberty has been available to us all along.
For more on this subject read:
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/caesars.html
"Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end"
Isaiah 9:7 |
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member
uSA
833 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 21:09:08
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Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, brother Caleb:
Peace be unto you and yours.
Hear, hear...
Well said, you are music to our ears...
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
Edited by - Oneisraelite on 09 Apr 2004 21:12:53 |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 18:01:53
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11 Samuel 5:7...nevertheless David took the stronghold of Zion: the same is the city of David.
Zion is, a "state" of being. Being.
Amos 9/11...in that day, I Will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen....
What Caleb is bring forth {and other's] is the Living Word. Queen Elizabeth is the titular head of the house of Judah/Israel. But, and, she is the LEGAL FICTION occupant of the Throne of David.
Saviour's shall come upon Mount Zion, and go forth and judge the mount of easu. {ObadiYah last sentence}.
We must follow the Way {hodos} and find the City of the Great King. Yahushuah issues the passport, to travel in The Way. It cost Him everything to purchase this Right.
We are not looking for Oz, nor the City of London.
Zion seems to be in the given territory of Benyamin, even shared with Judah. Benyamin is the son...of the Right hand. Benyamin could not be NUMBERED, as per the story of David's sin in numbering Israel. This is the why the coming son's can not be numbered, i.e. socialist security number's and many other number's.
Yahushuah was maddened by the lawyers and preachers who kept this knowlege {gnosis} hidden. THEY smirk, "all's fair in love and war". They forget to read, "offenses must come, but woe to him from whom they come from".
In the days of the fourth beast shall YHWH set up a Kingdom that shall never pass away.
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 20:50:52
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Caleb said: And if the STATE oversteps its bounds, we can appeal to the Lawful Government to bring the STATE back into line. Once we can distinguish between these two forms of government, we will see that the Perfect Law of Liberty has been available to us all along.
Steve: The Civil War needs to be factored into the reality of the situation concerning America. Unfortunately the current GOVT was installed by force and conquest due to the defeat of the South. |
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People get the Government they deserve
