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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  14:55:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is a nice bit on Paul and Roman CITIZENSHIP.

Roman Citizenship

Although there were more Jews than Roman Citizens in the Roman Empire the Roman Citizens were 'the' men of the Empire. Acts 22:3, 22-29 Paul is addressing the Jews. They riot at his claim that he was sent to the Gentiles so the commander arrested Paul and took him into the barracks to be flogged. This was a common practice whether one was innocent or guilty. It was 39 lashes on the back. However a Roman Citizen was protected by Roman law. He could not be beaten. Notice the amazing transformation of the commanders attitude when he learns of Paul's free born citizenship.

Acts 16:22-24; 35-40 In Philippi Paul preaches on the river bank because there was no Jewish Synagogue (Need 10 families) Lydia was converted and when he had ruined the local fortune telling practice then the people rioted again. This time they were arrested and flogged. But Paul protested and exercised his Roman Citizenship.

Kinds Of Roman Citizens
Roman citizenship could be obtained in a number of ways.

1. By Decree of the Roman Empire. If you worked for the Government upon discharge you would receive a document making you a Roman Citizen. All the soldiers at 6 B.C. or the Pax Romana were Italians so by Paul's time there were a great number of these type of Roman Citizens. Some could obtain their Citizenship by bestowing a favour on some government official. By giving them money, supplies or products. Paul's father probably sewed tents for them.
2. Another way is to purchase your way to freedom. But it would cost a slave about $200.00 - $600.00 dollars (Canadian) a great amount.
3. You could be born in a family of a Roman Citizen and acquire your Citizenship that way.

Privileges Of Roman Citizens

1. Justice - only Roman Citizens could have the following benefits. He could not be flogged if he was untried. He had the right to appeal to Caesar and the governor had no right to block this. And finally no Roman Citizen could be crucified only beheaded.

2. A Roman Citizen could hold a government office, conduct business unhindered, travel freely throughout the empire.

Responsibilities Of A Roman Citizen

You had to pay pole tax or head tax. You had to speak Latin the language of the government and you must be available for jury duty. Every Roman Citizen had three names and a birth certificate. This was a waxed plate made of metal or wood carried on their person. This was also registered in their place of birth.

Paul was a participant in the Roman Empire. He was raised in Tarsus a commercial and intellectual center, trained in Jerusalem and ministered in many of the great centres of the Empire. His urbanised outlook is seen in his use of language drawn from city life.

Paul's Multiple Citizenships:

* a Hebrew, an Israelite, Jew/Judean - 2Cor 11:22; Phil 3:5; Acts
21:39--22:3
* a CITIZEN of Tarsus - Acts 9:1; 21:39; 22:3; cf. Acts 15:21; Gal
1:21
* a Roman CITIZEN - Acts 16:16-40 (esp. 37-38); 22:25-29; 23:27
* a Citizen of heaven! - Phil 3:20; Eph 2:19

Now ask yourself.... if being a CITIZEN is a breach of the first commandment as well as serving two masters, how could Paul claim to up hold the Torah and even be "zealous" for the Law of his fathers
(i.e. - the Torah)while still being a CITIZEN? You would expect someone who was such a Torah scholar to know what the proper rendering of the first commandment is.

http://www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/books7.htm

Edited by - BatKol on 21 Feb 2004 21:41:41

Robert-James
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uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2004 :  21:32:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
An American can be protected by the Constitution. A U.S. citizen can not, except through the 14th ammendment which was intended to make all people into persons, and juristic personalities. The beast system has been around for thousands of years. They have about perfected the word play that snares one's birthright. {something for nothing-greed-lawlessness, being the obvious bait.
Paul readily admitted that his being an expert in the dead lettered law was not the ticket home. He went about killing little messiah's, while following his precious dead lettered veiled law. Paul was also jailed in Rome, with captured British Royality-Zerah line of Judah. They tried very hard to figure out what was going on, and they never quite got "it". At the end of his fine writings, he sumed it up, that his crown awaited him after his physical death...which he looked foreward to. He was a prisoner of messiah Yahushuah. Interesting term, yet at his end, he claimed a full pardon was due him, for all the murder's he was part of. {ah, work out your own salvation}
What does Acts have 28-29 chapters? We most likely are in chapter 2004 by now...get the drift?
Think of it this Way, if one has civil rights today, your gubberment is the U.S. government, you are following the Jesuit's way. For civil law is the same as Roman law. ho shall make war with the beast, is a question. Most answer, NOT ME, and by that very attitude of the heart, exclude themselves from finding the gate into the City.
Was Paul the messiah of Israel? Nope. He pointed to Way to messiah. Think he made mistakes? Bet your biffy. Now, what were those mistakes?
Also, it seems Rome had no problem with Yahushuah, as Pilate wanted no part of condemning him...washing his hands...the clean hands doctrine at Law.
Yahushuah is held out to be the pattern son, not Paul. Duh? But Paul is full of good tips, and is mostly very hard to understand, especially considering the translators, and their agenda.
Now, can one be a U.S. citizen and in good Standing in the Kingdom of His dear Son today? My answer is absolutely not.
King Alfred had the Kingdom in operation in the seven hundred's a.d. At other times the Living Water has burst through the underground and surfaced temporarily. And if one has not found this Water, there is no Way to believe that it even exists. Messiah Yahushuah stated that He had Living water to give, at a certain well, where Yoseph's bones were buried. John expains some of this in chapter four of his 'gospel'.
What say ye, if, certain founding father's of the u.S. knew exactly what they were doing? What if the Most High Yahuweh demanded that the u.S. be turned into the matrix, even Egyptian bondage, and we all get to see and record, who will absolutely not stay in the womb, PRETENDING that that bondage is life. Ah, but a baby MUST stay in the womb, till the birthing. Then some seem to be preme's, and what a handfull they are! I digress.
Paul also stated Yahuweh had, past tense, translated him into the Kingdom of His dear Son. So there we go again!!! Scripture is structered that if one wants to believe a lie, he will use the dead letter to justify the lie.
By the Way, Rome, old "Republic" of Rome was built by the so called lost tribes of Israel. It was the children of Israel's first attempt to live happily outside their Father's House. There were more than 5 million of the House of Judah/Benyamin in 1000 b.c. Gee, where did they go? The House of Israel was numbered at an even greater figure. When things get too crowded, Israelites move on.
I am so appreciative of a great gift given me...I am able to read scripture and think, at the same time.
BatKol, do you believe-understand, that Yoseph of Arimathea ended up in Londinium {London} around 37 a.d.? I know at one time you did and appreciate that our BELIEF's are subject to change. The KJV uses the words jews and gentiles to completely hoodwink the slothfull. Just curious.
I know your curiousity is about Paul and Roman citizenship, so we will try and stay centered there. But is the benefit of Paul and his citizenship worthy to be compared with today's battle...U.S. citizenship, vs. American national unity? For if we do not learn from the past, we shall certainly fall into the sin's of our father's.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2004 :  06:51:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Robert-James said: An American can be protected by the Constitution. A U.S. citizen can not, except through the 14th ammendment which was intended to make all people into persons, and juristic personalities.

Steve: Are you the same guy who again and again trashes the CONstitution (your spelling)?
Now it is good all of the sudden?? Which is it?

Anyway, the short reply to this is the consitution is not based on Torah. There is no 'freedom of religion' in the Torah. The constitution does not enforce the penalties for breaking Torah, especially NOT the Shabbat Laws. So I fail, at the root, to see the Kingdom promised as a re-instituted Throne of David as being manifest in either the republic of Rome, the Crown of England, America, or the USA.... and if America was headed toward becoming this... then YHWH stopped it via the Civil War... there was no choice for the south. They were defeated militarily. Sad but true none-the-less.

Edited by - BatKol on 11 Mar 2004 20:51:37
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2004 :  16:39:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings all,
In reading Romans 13 I noticed that the higher authorities spoken of had the power of the sword. I am not aware of the early Christians of Paul's time having this authority. Another clue that Romans 13 cannot be speaking of Church authority being the higher powers having jurisdiction of the sword is because it is written, "Yahushua says those who take up the sword will die by the sword" (Matthew 26:52)

This verse from Tanakh fits in perfectly with Romans 13:

Proverbs 16:7 When a man's ways are pleasing to YHWH ,
he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.



Edited by - BatKol on 16 Apr 2004 10:23:45
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2004 :  23:13:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings brother Steven:
Peace be unto the house.
To answer the question you put to me: Did Paul break the First Commandment of Yahuwah by adhereing to [the] caesar?
The answer is, yes, as long as it was done for his own purposes. However, if his King ordered him to do it for His [the King's] own purposes the answer would be, no.
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Steven posts: Proverbs 16:7 When a man's ways are pleasing to YHWH, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.
And we ask: Is it pleasing to Yahuwah that we join ourselves to a harlot?
Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil...
Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee...
Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

And did Yahushua follow your doctrine concerning Romans thirteen?
And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Colossians 2:15
Let us rightly divide this verse of YaHuWeH’s Word. We will look at virtually every word individually, both in Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible and Webster’s 1828 Dictionary. We will name all other sources, YaHuWeH willing.
And having spoiled[G554] principalities[G746] and powers[G1849], He made a shew of them1165 openly[G1722, G3954], triumphing over[G2358] them[G846] in[G1722] it[G84]. Colossians 2:15
Spoiled principalities…so what exactly does “spoiled” mean?
G554 apekduomai ap-ek-doo'-om-ahee; middle voice from 575 and 1562; to divest wholly oneself, or (for oneself) despoil
Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of American English
*DIVEST, v.t. [L. It is the same word as devest, but the latter is appropriately used as a technical term in law.] 1. To strip of clothes, arms or equipage; opposed to invest. 2. To deprive; as, to divest one of his rights or privileges; to divest one of title or property.
*DEVEST, v.t. In law, to alienate, as title or right.
*DEVEST, v.i. In law, to be lost or alienated, as a title or an estate.
*WHOLLY, adv. 1. Entirely; completely; perfectly.

Yahu’shua “spoiled principalities and powers,” so what are principalities[G746]?
G746 arche ar-khay'; from 756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):--beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.
Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of American English
*PRINCIPAL'ITY
, n. 1. Sovereignty; supreme power. 2. A prince; one invested with sovereignty. Titus 3. 3. The territory of a prince; or the country which gives title to a prince… 4. Superiority; predominance. 5. In Scripture, royal state or attire. Jer 13.

With the discernment of the Set Apart Spirit of YaHuWeH (perhaps even without it) we see that He first spoiled “the (royal) state.” We also see that He “spoiled” their predominance.
*PREDOM'INANCE, n. [See Predominant.] 1. Prevalence over others; superiority in strength, power, influence or authority…
He also spoiled the “powers1849,” so this is the next word we will dissect.
G1849 exousia ex-oo-see'-ah; from 1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, i.e. (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely, magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence:--authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.
He devested, i.e. stripped them completely of their authority and jurisdiction.
Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of American English
*M`ASTERY
, n. Dominion; power of governing or commanding.

He perfectly stripped them of their power of governing.
What we see here as we put this together is that Yahu’shua, through the Father, YaHuWeH, took dominion and jurisdiction from earthly rulers. He stripped them of their power, i.e. their private law advantages over their fellow man! We pray you can see this, for this is the renting of the veil, and the beginning of the re-established Kingdome of Heaven here on earth, with YaHuWeH as Supreme Sovereign. [See I Corinthians 11:3] Yahu’shua was the first [and the last] one to ever, so completely, fulfill YaHuWeH’s requirement as a King of His People as established at Deuteronomy 17:14-20. No one else has, or ever will, completely execute this perfection. Thus no other man is authorized to “lord” it over you. And what did He do with this Kingdome of YaHuWeH? Scripture tells us, “And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me…” because as He put it, “It is the Father’s good will to give you the Kingdome,” and we thus became “joint-heirs.” [Study on “Kingdome Appointed” available through The Citizens of the Commonwealth of Yisra’el.]
Is JESUS, the CHRIST, i.e. [that is to say] Yahushua, the Messiah your personal “Lord”? If you answered “Amen,” we would like to break away for a moment and give you the definition of “lord” along with a quote here from Noah Webster, c.1828.
*LORD, n. 1. A master; a person possessing supreme power and authority; a ruler; a governor.
There’s the definition, here’s the quote, the very next line in Webster’s 1828 Dictionary definition of lord: “Man over man he made not lord.”
For thus saith YaHuWeH[H3068], Ye have sold yourselves for nought [nothing]; and ye shall be redeemed [ransomed] without money. Yasha’yahu [Isaiah] 52:3
Did the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe keep His word? You bet He did, for He is the manifestion of Truth!!
Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. I Corinthians 7:23
Anyway, let us continue rightly dividing the Word of YaHuWeH at Colossians 2:15. We reprint it here so that no one gets lost during our digressions.
Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled[G554] principalities[G746] and powers[G1849], He made a shew of them[G1165] openly[G1722, G3954], triumphing over[G2358] them[G846] in[G1722] it[G84].
“He made a show of them…”
G1165 deigmatizo digh-mat-id'-zo; from 1164; to exhibit:--make a shew.
G1164 deigma digh'-mah; from the base of 1166; a specimen (as shown):--example.
G1166 deiknuo dike-noo'-o; a prolonged form of an obsolete primary of the same meaning; to show (literally or figuratively):--shew.

Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of American English
*EXHIBIT
, v.t. egzhib'it. [L. e xhibeo; ex and habeo, to have or hold, as we say, to hold out or forth.] 1. To offer or present to view; to present for inspection; to show
*SPEC'IMEN, n. [L. from species, with the termination men, which corresponds in sense to the English hood or ness.] A sample; a part or small portion of any thing, intended to exhibit the kind and quality of the whole, or of something not exhibited…

We must understand from this that He literally made “a show of them!!” And, at the same time, He was showing us how He took the Kingdome and how we are to behave, we are to emulate Him, He is the example! If He obeyed YaHuWeH’s Law, the Ten Commandments, then we are to obey them. Simple! The King-Dom [King’s Dominion] will not work any other way! We must be moral [righteous] for it to work, and the Ten Commandments are YaHuWeH’s Moral Laws. Simple. Any other “power,” i.e. by force, is an Usurper of the Lawful Authority.
He made a shew of them, “openly.”

G3954 parrhesia par-rhay-see'-ah; from 3956 and a derivative of 4483; all out-spokenness, i.e. frankness, bluntness, publicity; by implication, assurance:--bold (X -ly, -ness, -ness of speech), confidence, X freely, X openly, X plainly(-ness).
We will not insult your intelligence by defining any of the words found in #G3954. He stripped the ruling parties of all their powers in “all out-spokenness, frankness, bluntness and with publicity!” He made “a shew of it,” and them! This is the “boldness” of which brother Shaul [Paul] speaks of several times. Gee, we wonder where Shaul [Paul] learned this?
But, lo, He speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto Him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Anointed? Yahu’chanan [John] 7:26
Try, for a moment, to imagine the uproar from the so-called “churches” today if a man came carrying this bold doctrine. First, the “ministers of righteousness” would most likely be spewing venom, spouting Romans 13, screaming, “We have no king but Caesar,” not even realizing this is the power that is “a terror to good works.” We can safely say, most of the congregation would not even know Him by the Name given to Him by the Father, for it is not taught by the majority of shepherds of His flock, so they would say, “We know ye not!” And, as a result, they would be deceived into screaming… “Crucify Him, crucify Him [Luke 23:21], we have heard of this man, He is so and so from down the street!! He ain’t nothin’ but a carpenter’s son!” [Mattith’yahu (Matthew) 13:55 and Mark 6:3] And thus, were it possible, the atrocity of Golgotha would happen all over again! Fortunately, it is not possible, and unfortunately, this time around it will be us who pays the price for treason against the Lawful King. This time around there will be no one to pay the penalty; it was a one-time ransom for those of us who rejected the Lawful King. We were the “watchers” over His Kingdome on Earth and we failed wretchedly in our duties.
Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of American English
CRUCIFY
, v.t. [L., cross, to fix.] In scriptural language, to subdue; to mortify; to destroy the power or ruling influence of.

But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. Luke 19:14
Here is the verse once more, so that we may finish rightly dividing the Word.
Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled[G554] principalities[G746 and[G2532] powers[G1849], He made a shew of them[G1165] openly[G1722, G3954], triumphing over[G2358] them[G846] in[G1722] it[G84].
“triumphing over”
G2358 thriambeuo three-am-byoo'-o; from a prolonged compound of the base of 2360; and a derivative of 680 (meaning a noisy iambus, sung in honor of Bacchus); to make an acclamatory procession, i.e. (figuratively) to conquer or (by Hebraism) to give victory:--(cause) to triumph (over).
On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Yahu’shua was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the Name of YaHuWeH. Yahu’chanan [John] 12:12-13 [See also Mattith’yahu (Matthew) 21:9, 21:15, & Mark 11:9-10]
Without Freedom there is no Life!!



fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 16 Apr 2004 23:55:24
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2004 :  16:36:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
brother Robert said:

Greetings brother Steven:
Peace be unto the house.

Steve: Peace to you as well on this fine day.

brother Robert: To answer the question you put to me: Did Paul break the First Commandment of Yahuwah by adhereing to [the] caesar?

The answer is, yes, as long as it was done for his own purposes. However, if his King ordered him to do it for His [the King's] own purposes the answer would be, no.

Steve: So then in essense what you are saying is, "if it is YHWH's Will for His purposes, then being a CITIZEN is not a breach of the first commandment" am I correct? If so then your rendering of the first commandment is dependant upon the individual situation as it relates to YHWH's particular plan for that man or woman. This is agreeable with why YHWH would call the pagan king
Cyrus, "My Moshiach"...

brother Robert: But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Steve: Yes. Among other problems Paul was left for dead outside the city after he got a stoning. However, he did win over many along the way. Romans 13 was part of the message given to the Gentiles and even Gamaliel, the doctor of the Torah, and ROME knew Paul did not commit any crimes against either the Temple or the Empire.

Steven posts: Proverbs 16:7 When a man's ways are pleasing to YHWH, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

brother Robert: Is it pleasing to Yahuwah that we join ourselves to a harlot?

Steve: Are you speaking of harlot as it related to 1 Cor 6:15? Paul is speaking literally. If you read the surrounding verses you will see this is about fleshly desires and not being brought under the authority of them.. As for Bondage it is part of the curse of Lev 26 and Deut 28. That is why you/we are getting TAXED practically every time you/we spend an FRN or go to the CORP (definatly when we go to the CORP). When you live a pleasing life even the COPS can be at peace with you.

brother Robert: Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil...

Steve: One could apply this to anything from gambling to drinking too much and everything inbetween.

brother Robert: Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee...

Steve: Again, you are taking this verse out of it's context. This is speaking about the Israelites just before going into the promised land. It is relevant for that specific time. It got broken here in

Joshua 2:20And the angerH639 of the LORDH3068 was hotH2734 against IsraelH3478; and he saidH559, BecauseH3282 that thisH2088 peopleH1471 hath transgressedH5674 my covenantH1285 whichH834 I commandedH6680 their fathersH1, and have not hearkenedH8085 unto my voiceH6963;
21I alsoH1571 will not henceforthH3254 driveH3423 out any from beforeH6440 them of the nationsH1471 whichH834 JoshuaH3091 leftH5800 when he diedH4191:

Are you an Israelite? If so, then read about all of the sciptures which speak about returning to the promised land, and when you get there don't make any Covenants and you will be on target with the context of this verse.

brother Robert: Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

Steve: Why can't this also mean to make an allience with say worshipers of Zoaraster or some false god whom the nations worshiped?

brother Robert: And did Yahushua follow your doctrine concerning Romans thirteen?

Steve: Did not even Pilate say that he could find no fault in Yahushua?

Mark 15:9 But PilateG4091 answeredG611 them, sayingG3004, WillG2309 ye that I releaseG630 unto you the KingG935 of the JewsG2453?
10For he knewG1097 that the chiefG749 priestsG749 had deliveredG3860 him for envyG5355.

..13And they criedG2896 out againG3825, CrucifyG4717 him.
14ThenG1161 PilateG4091 saidG3004 unto them, WhyG1063, whatG5101 evilG2556 hath he doneG4160?

Why did Pilate convict Yahushua anyway, you might ask?

15And so PilateG4091, willingG1014 to contentG2425-G3588-G4160 the peopleG3793, releasedG630 BarabbasG912 unto them, and deliveredG3860 JesusG2424, when he had scourgedG5417 him, to be crucifiedG4717.

Yahushua was not guilty of the false claims made against him by the Jews and Pilate knew it.

brother Robert: And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Colossians 2:15
Let us rightly divide this verse of YaHuWeH’s Word.

brother Robert: We will look at virtually every word individually, both in Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible and Webster’s 1828 Dictionary. We will name all other sources, YaHuWeH willing.
And having spoiled[G554] principalities[G746] and powers[G1849], He made a shew of them1165 openly[G1722, G3954], triumphing over[G2358] them[G846] in[G1722] it[G84]. Colossians 2:15

Steve: Why do you stop there? The next verse explains to you "what" was overcome. Look at the whole statement not just one part:

And having spoiled[G554] principalities[G746] and powers[G1849], He made a shew of them1165 openly[G1722, G3954], triumphing over[G2358] them[G846] in[G1722] it[G84]. 16Let noG3361 manG5100 thereforeG3767 judgeG2919 you in meatG1035, orG2228 in drinkG4213, orG2228 in respectG3313 of an holydayG1859, orG2228 of the newG3561 moonG3561, orG2228 of the sabbathG4521 days:

This is not talking about ROME but rather the Statutes concerning Torah. Here Paul is obviously preaching his "gospel of the uncircumcision" to gentiles who were never under Torah to begin with.

Don't you think it is important to look at the context before you start sitting down at the idea table with the dictionary menus?

Peace,
Steve

Edited by - BatKol on 17 Apr 2004 16:55:26
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2004 :  21:16:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A nice bit on Paul from some scholars here http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/apologetics/Paul%20the%20Apostle/paul-index.htm :

Did Paul see an actual physical body or a spiritual body?

Ankerberg: In Paul’s own writings, was he talking about a real body appearing to him when he saw Jesus, or a spiritual body?

Dr. Ben Witherington: Well, he uses the phrase pneumatikon soma. Now in some translations this is rendered "a spiritual body." What he means by that is a body animated by the Holy Spirit. He doesn’t mean a body not made of any substance. The Greek word pneumatikon means having been effected by this thing called Spirit. Having been animated, vivified, kept alive, eternalized by the Spirit. So what he’s not talking about is a body made out of spiritual substance or non-material substance. He’s talking about a body fully animated by the Spirit. That’s what he’s talking about there.

other bits from Ankerberg:

What can we know about Paul’s birth and family?

Paul was born in Tarsus, the capital city of Cilicia, a province in what is now Turkey, probably somewhere around 0-5 A.D.1

Even in the flourishing period of Greek history [Tarsus] was a city of some considerable consequence. In the civil wars of Rome it took Caesar’s side, and on the occasion of a visit from him had its name changed to Juliopolis. Augustus made it a "free city."2

We learn from Acts 22:28 that, although Paul was a Jew, he was "born" a Roman citizen.

Though a Jew, his father was a Roman citizen. How he obtained this privilege we are not informed. "It might be bought, or won by distinguished service to the state, or acquired in several other ways; at all events, his son was freeborn. It was a valuable privilege, and one that was to prove of great use to Paul, although not in the way in which his father might have been expected to desire him to make use of it."3

Paul would think of this valuable privilege later when he was explaining the rights and privileges Christians enjoy as citizens of Heaven (cf. Phil. 3:20; Eph. 2:19; Col. 2:19).

Paul (also called Saul) was a tentmaker by trade. Cilicia was known for a black goat’s haircloth called cilicium, which was made into tents and "used by caravans, nomads, and armies all over Asia Minor and Syria."4

Little is known of his family, but there are a few things we can deduce:

Of Paul’s mother nothing is known; he never mentions her, either because she died in his infancy or because of some alienation or because he simply had no particular occasion to do so. He had at least one sister. His father was a citizen or burgess of Tarsus and obviously wealthy, for in a reform fifteen years earlier, the rank of citizen had been removed from all householders without considerable fortune or property….He almost certainly had been married. Jews rarely remained celibate, and parenthood was a qualification required of candidates for the Sanhedrin.[*] Yet his wife never is mentioned in Paul’s writings.5 [*Although some scholars suggest that Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin, this is not known for certain.]

As a young boy, Paul would have been sent to school at the synagogue. There he:

…learned to write the Hebrew characters accurately on papyrus, thus gradually forming his own rolls of the Scriptures. His father would have presented him with another set of rolls, on vellum: the Greek translation of the Old Testament known as the Septuagint, from which the set readings were taken in synagogue each Sabbath day.6

It is likely that his family moved to Jerusalem when he was still quite young, although the exact timing is uncertain. We do know that in Jerusalem the young Saul sat under Gamaliel, "one of the most eminent of all the doctors of the law."7

Paul was also, proudly, a Jew.

He describes himself to the Christians at Philippi as "of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee" (Phil. 3:5). On another occasion, he called himself "an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Rom. 11:1).

Thus Saul stood in a proud lineage reaching back to the father of his people, Abraham. From the tribe of Benjamin had come Israel’s first king, Saul, after whom the boy of Tarsus was named.8

We are not told whether Paul had any actual contact with Jesus during His ministry. It is unlikely, however, that Paul was unaware of the claims Jesus made or of the miracles He performed, particularly if he was in Jerusalem at this time. It’s not impossible to think that he may even have witnessed Jesus’ trial or even His crucifixion.





"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)

Edited by - BatKol on 12 May 2004 21:20:38
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BillM
Regular Member

USA
28 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2004 :  12:11:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Batkol,

The sword the christian congregation has and had is the word of God.
Used by God for his congregation in the incident that happened with Annias and Sapharia. They did not lie to man but to God. This is the sword the assembly/congregation has in reference to Rom.13.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2004 :  08:58:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill,

Rom 13:4 For 1063 he is 2076 the minister 1249 of God 2316 to thee 4671 for 1519 good 18. But 1161 if 1437 thou do 4160 that which is evil 2556, be afraid 5399 ; for 1063 he beareth 5409 not 3756 the sword 3162 in vain 1500: for 1063 he is 2076 the minister 1249 of God 2316, a revenger 1558 to [execute] wrath 3709 upon 1519 him that doeth 4238 evil 2556.

If this means the bible then we have James getting killed with a bible here:

Act 12:2 And 1161 he killed 337 James 2385 the brother 80 of John 2491 with the sword 3162.

We have an ear getting cut off with a bible here:

Mat 26:51 And 2532, behold 2400 , one 1520 of them which were with 3326 Jesus 2424 stretched out 1614 [his] hand 5495, and drew 645 his 846 sword 3162, and 2532 struck 3960 a servant 1401 of the high priest's 749, and smote off 851 his 846 ear 5621.

We have Jesus saying all that live by the bible will perish by the bible here:

Mat 26:52 Then 5119 said 3004 Jesus 2424 unto him 846, Put up again 654 thy 4675 sword 3162 into 1519 his 846 place 5117: for 1063 all they 3956 that take 2983 the sword 3162 shall perish 622 with 1722 the sword 3162.

When sword is used as a figurative we have clairification:

Eph 6:17 And 2532 take 1209 the helmet 4030 of salvation 4992, and 2532 the sword 3162 of the Spirit 4151, which is 3603 the word 4487 of God 2316:

In Romans 13 Paul gives no clarification as he does here in Eph 6:17. He uses sword in the literal sense in Romans 13 (unless of course you would like to address the above sword scriptures and explain how Peter cut off and ear with a bible, Jesus saying those who live by the bible will die by the bible, and James getting killed by a bible.
Obviously this is not a one size fits all concept).





"I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no Elohim."
(Isa 45:5, Deut 4:35 1 King 8:60, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:14, Isa 46:9)

Edited by - BatKol on 14 May 2004 09:06:17
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DerekR
Junior Member

USA
20 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2004 :  06:48:49  Show Profile  Visit DerekR's Homepage  Send DerekR an AOL message  Send DerekR an ICQ Message  Reply with Quote
"The sword the christian congregation has and had is the word of God."


"If this means the bible then we have James getting killed with a bible here"

You confuse the Word of God with the Bible. The Word of God is much more than the Bible.

I hardly think I have the entire Bible written on my heart.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2004 :  08:12:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DerekR

"The sword the christian congregation has and had is the word of God."


"If this means the bible then we have James getting killed with a bible here"

You confuse the Word of God with the Bible. The Word of God is much more than the Bible.

I hardly think I have the entire Bible written on my heart.



How does all of this show that the Roman government is not the 'higher authority' that Paul was speaking of in Romans 13?

"Elohim is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent" Numbers 23:19a
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2004 :  17:03:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings Ecclesia,
May I answer?
For Roman's, {little childish believer's, yet to grow up into a more fuller statue} obey your government.
For Israelites, {young men-father's} I quote IsaiYah 9:6, "the government shall be upon his shoulder"...shoulder here is neck. Anyone willing to stick their neck out?
Batkol, no question there is two government's, here and now. and the question we must {may] ask ourselves is, which government is mine?
Paul would have been released from custody, but, he appealed to Rome. Did he trangress, or, did he know exactly what he was doing? hmmm.
The U.S. government {Rome-Civil law} now demands that boy's {and girl's?} register as cannon fodder {U.S. selective service-toy soldier's}, in order to obtain a driver's LICENSE. Goodness know's the handwriting is written on subway wall's. Who is your government?
A question we all should ponder.
I mean, is YHWH's Law and government here and now? Written on living heart's.
I think so.
If Roman law is in accord with scripture Law, fine and dandy. If not, there is something called CIVIL dis-obedience.
Dawg-gone free will. A gift. Open it up.
Number's 23:1/2...has He said, and shall not He do it, or do you say..has He spoken, and shall He not make it good?
The Government "shall" be upon His shoulder.
Matthew 28:18. Daniel 7:14.
And the Word was made flesh and dwell's among us.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2004 :  21:28:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Robert-James said: Batkol, no question there is two government's, here and now. and the question we must {may] ask ourselves is, which government is mine?

Batkol: You can tell which is yours in reality by which one collects the TAXES you wilfully pay (and pay you do).. When you pay your food TAX, gas TAX, FCC phone TAX, any CONSUMER TAX, etc. which of the 'two' GOVTS are you paying and with which GOVT's NOTES are you paying with? Now ask yourself which GOVT are you utilizing when you fork over that hard earned FICTION (which you wilfully use).. Your ideas and speculations are fine but if you hated this system so much, why sully your hands with the beast's FICTION, pay their CONSUMER TAXES or make use of their regulated SERVICES? Heck we are even having this discussion on the FCC regulated INTERNET. Ironic ain't it?


"Elohim is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent" Numbers 23:19a
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2004 :  16:29:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings,
we don't "pay" for anything with FED note's. We dis-charge. May we ask ourselve's,"do I have any CONTRACTS with the other government, the colourable, fictious one's"?
Your right, the FEDS nickel-dime everyone. FED tax on a phone bill, etc. But, to buy groceries, one need not sign a contract.
May I ask you this: who gives you permission to drive about? Who has authority over your family auto's?
Utilize...to make practical use of. Yes, we make practical use of the legal fictious government. Why not? They are pretend, and dead as a door nail. But to be a RESIDENT-U.S. citizen, well, then one has joined himself with the dead.
Abraham-Moses-David-Yahushuah, all left the jurisdiction of the beast government. Abraham stated it wonderfully, in that he wanted not even a shoe lace, from the king of sodom. Should we not strive to emulate the father's also?
A shoe lace today is similar to receiving FREE mail delivery.
One receives nothing FREE for using the internet, getting groceries or traveling about on public roads, built with use taxes collected in equal measure from those using the paved roadway's...provided we dis-charge any obligation with FED note's.
Hebrew's 11...I guess it was written to the {h}ebrew's only, as was James' letter. Let's find that City whose builder and maker is YHWH.
In fact, let's Build that City, within ourselves.
The Capstone, sheperd stone is the Son.
They have their Court's, we our's. Even Paul made that difference clear.
Their government has an army, as does our's.
Their government has legalisms.
We have the Law.
They have a king{queen}
We have a King.
They have colourable judge's galore.
We have One Judge.
They have lawmaker's, legislature's, statue's, ad nasuem.
We have One Lawgiver.
I concur that the 'devil' is in the details, so why get caught up in the detail's?
It is hard enough to break all contract's our old man has made in his ignorance, with the leviathan...swimming in COMMERCE.
He want's us to be fisher's of men, i.e. pull them out of the sea of commerce. In fact, throw a net, as per John 21. On the Right side, and they caught 153 fishes.
Praise YaH.
Right side, is Right Standing, put on His Righteousness.
Amazing it is that a dead man, resurrected to Life, can eat and drink and make a fire.
Now, where's Enoch?
Peace to the troubled, a Sword of Truth to the Righteous.
And Victory to the Overcomer's.
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Manuel
Advanced Member

USA
762 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2004 :  18:44:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings to all,
And they turn backwards:
"A cartoon shows a police officer standing opposite to a man. He says "the supreme court rules that you have to tell me your name"...... pause..... "Okay, because you refuse I'm placing you under arrest"...... "You have the right to remain silent"......


I am,
Manuel
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2004 :  21:10:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Welcome to 1984, post dated 2004. Thank's E-manuel.
It is truely a perverted mind that can live within Babylon, without the conviction Power falling upon them and so say's The Great Cloud of Witnesses. It is all becoming so obvious, only those who chose to remain blind, are like Easu.
Oop's, I offended the some, who think there is no such thing as a freewill. To you zombie's...rest in peace.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2004 :  22:33:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Robert-James said: we don't "pay" for anything with FED note's. We dis-charge.
And this DISCHARGING perpetuates the very system you claim to hate! But you won't admit it!! Your participation and actions are all that is needed. No signature required. "It's so simple they'll never get it"
quote:
May we ask ourselve's,"do I have any CONTRACTS with the other government, the colourable, fictious one's"?
So you mean to tell me it is Lawful according to your doctrine to perpetuate and participate in the FRN scheme and pay FED TAX at the CORP, but to have a POWER CONTRACT is wrong? That's silly. Just as silly as thinking that using SHABBOS GOY for all of your CONTRACT needs keeps your paws clean.
quote:
Your right, the FEDS nickel-dime everyone. FED tax on a phone bill, etc. But, to buy groceries, one need not sign a contract.
You don't get it. There is no signature needed to participate and benefit in the CONSUMER FICTION SCHEME. That's the deceptive kicker you refuse to see... even the very elect... When we wilfully choose to TRADE in this manner, we not only PAY FED TAX but we also perpetuate the FRN CONSUMER SCHEME. You are so worried about CONTRACTS, you are missing the bigger picture in that practicaly every day you and I go about DISCHARGING FICTION for even our barest needs. Also, I think I also maybe able to explain wilfullness in a context that you may relate to and get my point I have been trying to make for sometime now. YHWH will never make you do something 'against your will' but He will make you willing to go.
quote:
May I ask you this: who gives you permission to drive about? Who has authority over your family auto's? Utilize...to make practical use of.
Who has authority to make practical use of my autos? I do... and I do it often.
quote:
Yes, we make practical use of the legal fictious government. Why not? They are pretend, and dead as a door nail.
This sums it up and I will always remind you of these words when talking of this subject. You are picking and choosing to suit your current agenda while at the same time admiting to wilfully engaging in BUSINESS with SYSTEM you claim to hate. You say that it's OK because it is PRETEND and DEAD and no signature needed. But that ZOMBIE you are DISCHARGING to does not need your signature.. it needs your wilfull participation. Even the very elect could be decieved by this one.
quote:
But to be a RESIDENT-U.S. citizen, well, then one has joined himself with the dead.
Wake up. You just admitted you make practical use of THE DEAD. You and I both DISCHARGE for their GOODS and pay IT a TAX to keep it 'alive'. What your personal agenda will not let you do is see this Fact.
quote:
Abraham-Moses-David-Yahushuah, all left the jurisdiction of the beast government. Abraham stated it wonderfully, in that he wanted not even a shoe lace, from the king of sodom. Should we not strive to emulate the father's also?
We are using more than a shoe lace. We go DISCHARGING and then we lace up the DEAD MAN'S boots when we PAY TAX to keep the SCHEME going.
quote:
A shoe lace today is similar to receiving FREE mail delivery.
You are swallowing the Camel on this and miss the weightier issue. You can't be bothered with mail, yet you will defend your wilfull choice to feed off of the DEAD CORPS with BEAST SCRIP. You are like a boy at the circus with tickets to ride the rides in hand but yet refuses to admit he is at the circus.

I'll pass on commenting on the religious opinions you offer because it does not change the fact that both you and I wilfully choose to "feed of the DEAD and DISCHARGE TAX for the privlidge".. INGLES (opps...we just paid a TAX), SHELL (opps...we just paid a TAX), BOSTON CHICKEN (opps...we just paid a TAX), WALMART (opps...we just paid a TAX), PHONE SERVICE (opps...we just paid a TAX), ELECTRIC (opps...we just paid a TAX even if one uses the SHABBOS GOY to put it in THEIR NAME), BEER, WINE CIG STORE (opps...we just paid many TAXES), ... the list goes on. No signature needed just those FRNS in your 'right hand' and the DEAD will provide the PRODUCTS. We are both guilty of partaking in this, like it or not. Justify it or not.
"Elohim is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent" Numbers 23:19a

Edited by - BatKol on 12 Aug 2004 11:11:50
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Manuel
Advanced Member

USA
762 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2004 :  11:19:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings to all,
The following is a "flashback" I remember from "The Code of Conduct":

"I will never surrender of my own free will... If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available... I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape... I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy."

We are at a Heavenly War gentlemen, on earth as it is on Heaven.

I am,
Manuel
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2004 :  18:24:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape... I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy."


I guess special favors to you does not include the 'enemy' providing CORPS and FAKE SCRIP for us to use..



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert-James said: "Yes, we make practical use of the legal fictious government. Why not? They are pretend, and dead as a door nail."
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Rei
Regular Member

USA
30 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2004 :  10:01:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well done Batkol
I have been "down this road" for several years. Everyone that I ever read or discussed this thread had the ability to discribe the problem and then tell me they have no obligation to offer an answer. The only thing left for me is to ponder and search how to get out of this impossible place. Are you any different?

I am a newcomer to this forum and I am enjoying it.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2004 :  15:10:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rei

Well done Batkol
I have been "down this road" for several years. Everyone that I ever read or discussed this thread had the ability to discribe the problem and then tell me they have no obligation to offer an answer. The only thing left for me is to ponder and search how to get out of this impossible place. Are you any different?

I am a newcomer to this forum and I am enjoying it.



Welcome aboard Rei! .... and thanks for the kind words ;-)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert-James said: "Yes, we make practical use of the legal fictious government. Why not? They are pretend, and dead as a door nail."
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