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berkano
Advanced Member
uSA
129 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Apr 2004 : 01:44:34
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quote:
Hi one israelite
Why do you have a "u" after Yah in Yahushua, and in Yashayahu, yet have a "w" after Yah in Yahweh?
What you are really saying is the Fathers name is pronounced differently in the names of His people. But in reality this can not be. If you are going to call Him Yahweh, don't you think you should be consistant and call the Son Yahweshua and Isaiah Yashayahwe?
2-elect
Actually, I don't find that Father cares about the name as much as he cares about kenning his proper character and emulating it by keeping His commandments.
And just for the record, neither yah-weh nor yah-veh are correct pronunciations of the Ancient Name anyway. Maybe it is closer to
ee-yah-aye-oh-vah,
or just
ee-yoh-vah,
or maybe
aye-yoh-vah,
people forgetting the initial vowel that can precede the initial consonant.
Jesus used more than one appellation to refer to himself, and so did Father. The important thing to remember is that Jesus put a face on the Father--"He that hath seen me hath seen the father."
Hairsplitting over the "correct pronunciation" of a word that is rendered with a foreign alphabet is not going to bring one any closer to Immanuel to see His face.
I say, learn, keep, and continue to learn his ways and laws, until one learns that is not even enough, not without his grace and the angel of his presence to make the calling and election sure. Are you anointed with that holy anointing that cannot be repented or abrogated?
-- Berkano |
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Tiza
Regular Member
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2004 : 11:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by 2-elect
His Name Is Not Yahushua Or From Yahushua
His name is YHWH with the meaning of complete Salvation YAHSHUAH.
http://www.yaih.com/nun.htm
Joshua son of Nun was not given the name above all names!
Shalom
Daron
Greetings, Daron:
The messiah's name is indeed now Yahweh. Yahushua was his earthly prophetic name. It was to reveal to those who were looking for him who he was in the OT, i.e., Yahu Yahweh. And it was also to conceal his identity from those who were seeking to kill him before the proper time. All his works he did in the sacred name Yahweh. His two earthly names Immanuel (el is with us) and Yahushua (Yahu saves) are merely prophetic. Yahu-shua means "Yahu saves," not Yahweh saves as many people suppose. It is Yahu Yahweh who saves his people.
First, he was named after Yahushua son of Nun and the high priest, Yahushua son of Yahuzadak (Hag. 1:1-2:4), these being two foretypes of the messiah.
The name Yeshua is Aramaic and not Hebrew. This name means "he saves" and fails to state who the "he" is that does the saving. You can look in the book of Ezra at a time when Aramaic was more commonly spoken and see that the same high priest's name Yahushua (Hab. 1) was called Yeshua son of Yuzadak (see Ezra 3:2, 8-9, 5:2 & notice alteration of Yahuzadak).
There is also another reason why the "Yahu (YHW)" was dropped from his name, and with this we get into the ineffable name doctrine. The first three letters are 2/3 of the name Yahweh (or Yahueh, whichever transliteration you prefer). The mere utterance of the sacred name Yahweh was prohibited by the Jewish Religious leaders since the 2nd century B.C.E. This false doctrine also came into Christianity by around the end of the 1st century C.E. At which time only the bilateral form was allowed (Yah).
Tiza |
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David Merrill
Advanced Member
USA
1147 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 19:26:16
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Dear Readers;
Sorry to drop in on six pages of convincing argument. I just feel that simplifying may be the most edifying.
There is a great treatise on this subject by a renouned author at Hebrew University in Chattanooga, Tennessee. "Yehoshua, Yeshua or Yeshu; Which One is the Name of Jesus in Hebrew?" by James D. Price. I discussed this with Dr. Price and he elaborated the accent, though slight, is on "shu". The name of the Messiah is Yehoshuah; just like we find in Strong's, Young's and Richardson's concordances.
http://www.direct.ca/trinity/yehoshua.html
So when I read Price's paper I went to the federal repository and checked out his sources, mainly the Babylonian Talmud and everything was there. But I was able to cross-check through various esoterics about the Tetragrammaton too. I have several journal pages but will send only one to Bondservant for him to link:
72-fold name image link
The simplicity is very comprehensive. YOD - HEH - VAW - HEH are the letters. But the vowel sounds are also critical. Yihowah is probably the better way to pronounce Jehovah. Strong's says to pronounce it yeh-ho-vaw. But that first “e” sound is almost like a ‘short’ “i” sound. The next vowel is clearly a long “o” sounded after the first HEH. Then there is the VAW sound followed by an ending HEH which always has an “aw” vowel sound, ending the word.
So the ineffable name spoken only by priests and by the cohen gadol (high priest) on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement – Leviticus 23) is simply fully expounding the consonants with the same vowel sounds. Nothing fancy:
YOD e HEHEH WAV o HEY aH
YODIHEHEHWAVOHEYAH
The mathematics is really quite eloquent as you can see.
Regards,
David Merrill.
P.S. As to the “u” sound argument. I have never bought into it but Encyclopedia Judaica expounds clearly under NAME that YEHU in a prefix like Yehudah (Judah) is “definitely not theophoric”. So it makes no sense to apply this convention to either the Name or the Messiah.
P.P.S. I recall the rabbi in the synagogue teaching this pronunciation one Sabbath:
http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Respecting_God_in_Speech.asp |
Edited by - David Merrill on 02 Jul 2004 19:00:57 |
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God is Love
Senior Member
uSA
53 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 21:22:50
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Greetings all,
Some verses related to the Name:
1 Corinthians chapter 8 verses 5 and 6: "For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him, and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him."
It is this one God the Father whom we are out of, and one Lord whom we are through, regardless of their names.
Matthew chapter 6 verses 9 and 10: ""YOU must pray, then, this way: "'Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place as in heaven, also upon earth."
We pray for His name to be sanctified. So, obviously His name is of importance.
Psalms chapter 83 verse 18: "That people may know that you, whose name is YHWH, You alone are the Most High over all the earth."
Exodus chapter 6 verses 2 and 3: "And YHWH went on to speak to Moses and to say to him: "I am YHWH. And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name YHWH I did not make myself known to them."
Exodus chapter 3 verse 15: "Then YHWH said once more to Moses: "This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, "YHWH the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.' This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation."
His name is a memorial. Does that mean it is to be remembered?
Isaiah chapter 42 verse 8: ""I am YHWH. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images."
Cannot a name be made into a graven image? It is our Father we worship, not His name. Though we should "remember" it. In order to "remember" it, we should have known it at some point in time. There is a lot of argument regarding the name. I was raised to believe the name of our Father is Jehovah. When I learned it was a Latin translation of YHWH, I then began to merely use YHWH, as I honestly do not know the true pronunciation, though I would love to know for certain.
Isaiah chapter 12 verse 2: "Look! YHWH is my salvation. I shall trust and be in no dread; for Jah Jehovah is my strength and [my] might, and he came to be the salvation of me.""
Does anyone know the original letters for Jah? The original letters for Jehovah are YHWH, true?
Isaiah chapter 26 verse 4: "Trust in YHWH, YOU people, for all times, for in Jah Jehovah is the Rock of times indefinite."
John chapter 17 verse 6: ""I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word."
verse 26: "And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.""
We see Jesus made God's name known. Noted also here:
John chapter 5 verse 43: "I have come in the name of my Father, but YOU do not receive me; if someone else arrived in his own name, YOU would receive that one."
chapter 12 verses 12 and 13: "The next day the great crowd that had come to the festival, on hearing that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, took the branches of palm trees and went out to meet him. And they began to shout: "Save, we pray you! Blessed is he that comes in YHWH's name, even the king of Israel!""
verse 28: "Father, glorify your name." Therefore a voice came out of heaven: "I both glorified [it] and will glorify [it] again.""
I have also seen the letters rendered: JHVH rather than YHWH. I have understood it to mean "He Causes to Become"
His name as found in various translations:
The New English Bible: Jehovah appears at Exodus 3:15; 6:3; See also Genesis 22:14; Exodus 17:15; Judges 6:24; Ezekiel 48:35.
Revised Standard Version: Footnote on Exodus 3:15 says: "The word LORD when spelled with capital letters, stands for the divine name, YHWH."
Today's English Version: Footnote on Exodus 6:3 states: "THE LORD:...Where the Hebrew text has Yahweh, traditionally transliterated Jehovah, this translation employs LORD with capital letters, following a usage which is widespread in English versions."
King James Version: Jehovah is found at Exodus 6:3; Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 12:2; 26:4; Note also Genesis 22:14; Exodus 17:15; Judges 6:24.
American Standard Version: Starting with Genesis 2:4, the name Jehovah is used throughout the Hebrew.
Douay Version: Footnote on Exodus 6:3 says "My name Adonai." It also talks about how the Jews out of reverence never pronounce His name. Instead they would read Adonai (signifying Lord). This footnote claims the vowels to be Jod, He, Vau, He. Jehovah is a fairly modern version of the name. The ancient Jews and Christians did not use Jehovah. This footnote claims the true pronunciation is lost. It also notes chapter 3 and 14.
The Catholic Encyclopedia (1913, Vol. VIII, p. 329) states: "Jehovah, the proper name of God in the Old Testament; hence the Jews called it the name by excellence, the great name, the only name."
The Holy Bible: Yahweh is in the footnotes of Exodus 3:14; 6:3. Translated by Ronald A. Knox.
The New American Bible: Footnote favors Yahweh in Exodus 3:14. It is not in the main text, however.
The Jerusalem Bible: Tetragrammaton is translated Yahweh, starting with Genesis 2:4.
New World Translation: Jehovah is used in the Hebrew and Greek 7,210 times.
An American Translation: Yahweh is used at Exodus 3:15; 6:3, followed by LORD in brackets.
The Bible in Living English: Jehovah is used throughout the Hebrew. Done by S. T. Byington.
The 'Holy Scriptures': Matthew 1:20 begins with use of Jehovah in the footnotes (Greek). The name Jehovah appears throughout the Hebrew. Translated by J. N. Darby.
The Emphatic Diaglott: Jehovah is found at Matthew 21:9 and 17 other places, in the Greek. Benjamin Wilson did this translation.
The Holy Scriptures According to Masoretic Text----A New Translation: Exodus 6:3, Hebrew tetragrammaton appears in English text. This was done by the Jewish Publication society of America. Max Margolis was the editor-in-chief.
The Holy Bible: Jehovah is found throughout the Hebrew scriptures. This translation was done by Robert Young.
When I see how often the word LORD replaces the name of our Father, I can't help but think how our names on various presentments also appear in all capitals, what they call the nom de guerre, is it? War name? Are there earlier instances of an all capital name replacing another name? When did the use of this LORD begin? I'm curious.
Some other interesting points:
Preface of the Revised Standard Version: "For two reasons the Committee has returned to the more familiar usage of the King James Version: (1) the word 'Jehovah' does not accurately represent any form of the Name ever used in Hebrew; and (2) the use of any proper name for the one and only God, as though there were other gods from whom he had to be distinguished, was discontinued in Judaism before the Christian era and is entirely inappropriate for the universal faith of the Christian Church."
Despite our Father's name appearing more than any other name or any title in the original Hebrew, this particular translation felt it appropriate to remove it based on the above mentioned beliefs.
Matthew chapter 15 verse 6: "he must not honor his father at all.' And so YOU have made the word of YHWH invalid because of YOUR tradition."
As in Judaism before the Christian era, they decided to discontinue the use of God's Name in their translations.
William Tyndale was the first in 1530 to break the practice of leaving the name out altogether when he published the Pentateuch. Others after him followed his example by using the name at least once and up to a few times in the majority of translations.
Jerome in the fourth century wrote: "Matthew, who is also Levi, and who from a publican came to be an apostle, first of all composed a Gospel of Christ in Judaea in the Hebrew language and characters for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed."--------De viris inlustribus,
chapter III.
Matthew's gospel includes 11 direct quotations of portions of the Hebrew where the Tetragrammaton is found. No information that I am aware of would prove that Matthew did not quote what was written as it was written.
Hundreds of passages were quoted from the Septuagint (translated from Hebrew to Greek). Many of these passages included the Tetragrammaton, written in Hebrew right in the Greek text (in the earlier copies of the Septuagint).
As His Son desired, so His Son's follower's obeyed by retaining that name.
John chapter 17 verse 6: ""I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word."
verse 26: "And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.""
From Journal of Biblical Literature, by George Howard of GSU: "We know for a fact that Greek-speaking Jews continued to write (the Hebrew lettering for YHWH) within their Greek Scriptures. Moreover, it is most unlikely that early conservative Greek-speaking Jewish Christians varied from this practice. Although in secondary references to God they probably used the words [God] and [Lord], it would have been extremely unusual for them to have dismissed the Tetragram from the biblical text itself....Since the Tetragram was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible which made up the Scriptures of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the N[ew] T[estament] writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the biblical text....But when it was removed from the Greek O[ld] T[estament], it was also removed from the quotations of the O[ld] T[estament] in the N[ew] T[estament]. Thus somewhere around the beginning of the second century the use of surrogates [substitutes] must have crowded out the Tetragram in both Testaments."----------Volume 96, No.1, March 1977, pages 76 and 77.
From what I understand, Biblical Hebrew was originally written with only consonants, no vowels. When the language was used every day, those reading the language automatically knew which vowels to provide. Over time, superstition led the Jews to stop pronouncing God's name aloud, so they substituted titles. Centuries later, Jewish scholars developed a system of points indicating which vowels to use when reading old Hebrew. They placed the vowels for the substitute expressions around the four consonants representing the name. This is how the original pronunciation was lost.
Some of the scholars favor Yahweh. Others use Jehovah, due to it's being readily recognized by many. Jehovah has been in use for centuries in the English language and also preserves the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton.
The Emphasized Bible, by J. B. Rotherham, uses Yahweh throughout the Hebrew. Later in Studies in the Psalms, he used Jehovah.
He wrote: "JEHOVAH-------The employment of this English form of the Memorial name...in the present version of the Psalter does not arise from any misgiving as to the more correct pronunciation, as being Yahweh; but solely from the practical evidence personally selected of the desirability of keeping in touch with the public ear and eye in a matter of this kind, in which the principal thing is the easy recognition of the Divine name intended."--------London, 1911, page 29.
German professor Gustav Friedrich Oehler wrote: "From this point onward I use the word Jehovah, because, as a matter of fact, this name has now become more naturalized in our vocabulary, and cannot be supplanted."----------Grammaire de l'hebreu biblique, Rome, 1923, footnote on page 49.
Jesus was born a Jew, and his name in Hebrew was perhaps pronounced Ye-shu'a', Greek form of the name being I-e-sous'. Now he is known widespread as Jesus. With each language, the pronunciation changes slightly. There is a common thread though, in all languages, by which the Father and the Son are known, their commonly used names. So we have three schools of usage. Those who never use the name. Those who are striving to use the specific and original name, likely lost. And those who use the commonly known names. While the name is important, I believe our conduct and how we worship our Father is just as important.
Knowing and using God's name is for us a way to draw close to Him. Thus for some, including me, the topic is of great interest and concern. Naming our Father makes Him more personal to us. It also distinguishes our Father from other gods.
Note Matthew 28:19,20; 1 Corinthians 8:5,6; Exodus 3:15; Isaiah 12:4; Ezekiel 38:17,23; Malachi 3:16; John 17:26; Acts 15:14.
Does anyone on the forum actually know the "lost language" as it was passed down through the Jewish scholars? As I noted above, the vowels that were substituted were those of the Title, not of the actual original name. Most believe the name was lost in time. It would be a true blessing to find that it wasn't. And more people should know about it if that were the case.
Freedom, Love, and Peace to all of you!
Mount Fuji----"without equal" |
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David Merrill
Advanced Member
USA
1147 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 11:28:22
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Dear God is Love;
You ask:quote:
Does anyone on the forum actually know the "lost language" as it was passed down through the Jewish scholars? As I noted above, the vowels that were substituted were those of the Title, not of the actual original name. Most believe the name was lost in time. It would be a true blessing to find that it wasn't. And more people should know about it if that were the case.
And my answer is yes. Albeit the presumption is that God always provides. It is clear from the Bible that God wants people to know His Name. We are to have it ready on our lips and we obviously have the option of misusing it. Therefore a clear Commandment.
So since Young's, Strong's and Richardson's concordances are all in agreement, why allow anyone to butcher up either the Messiah's or God's Names? I think that is a valid question there.
I do not read past "Yehushuah". I have studied out not only the name but the mentality of charismatic types who try to convince me that is correct. One fellow whom I thought to be a mentor attacked me with it. Another fellow returned from Israel with a notion that the tribe of Judah (Yehudah) must be integrated into both Names.
Well this "mentor" said of the fellow back from Israel, "You should have seen the entheusiasm in this man! You should look up ENTHEUSIASM in your Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary. You will find that this is a man of God, who taught me "Yehushuah" and "Yehuway" are the Names."
So I did:quote:
1. A belief or conceit of private revelation; the vain confidence or opinion of a person, that he has special divine communications from the Supreme Being, or familiar intercourse with him.
I am formerly a calibration technician so when the "mentor" tried to tell me that Webster was wrong, I could not swallow that. I truly resent that someone will be so hypocritical to assure me God provides but then discards all standards and well researched opinions like those mentioned. Big names in standardizing the Bible with English.
I have written the entire Pentateuch (First Five Books - Torah) into a word processor ver batim. I wrote out the Laws of Moses (Exodus 20-24:7) in paleo-Hebrew, Sumarian Ostraca from about the time of King David then translated that back to English word for word. I have sung the Shema, leading the congregation and carried the Torah scroll through the synagogue for them to touch and kiss. Now when I sing the Shema, I sing Yodi-Hehey-Wavoh-Heyah, replacing two of the three "Adonai"s.* Replacing all three does not fit the harmony and cadence I prefer.
Hebrew law link
Now this does nothing but support my point. But the Jews in Encyclopedia Judaica (under NAME) make it quite clear that the Name; the Tetragrammaton would not have a "Yehu" prefix under any conditions.
Yehudah not theophoric link
Regards,
David Merrill
P.S. Of course you can believe that the Holy Spirit gives us all a unique name for God. That being a man of faith means that Rules of Evidence and standards are obsolete. But in my opinion, you are a very insidious and pernicious speaker, specially if you are teaching a ministry.
* Please read this a little toned down. I am passionate about the injury this "mentor" caused and I had to recover from. Do not think I am ventilating directly at you.
If you think it through, there is an error in the syntax of your statement quoted at the top of this Reply. The "Title" ADONAI is used by the Jews to replace the Name. This began about the time of John Hercanus (125 BC) for the purpose of protecting people from misusing the Name. Likewise, there is no Torah teaching all year long in the synagogue, teaching the Ten Commandments. Is not that wierd? The rabbis decided that early Christians [That new sect of Judaism is now called "Messianic" or "Completed" Jews.] would botch it up so they study the Commandments in private Torah study. |
Edited by - David Merrill on 11 Jul 2004 12:16:27 |
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Inactive Member
Regular Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 23:46:32
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greetings all...
i have not read all 6 pages of this thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned. In this search for the sacred name one must remember that we are being conformed to the image of Christ, from glory to glory. when one has say a daughter, the baby's first name for the male parent is daddy or abba or something similar. Isnt that the most precious.. later the child may learn in fact that daddy's name is Joe Dirte or fill in your name. But the real intimacy is in getting to know what daddy is really like, what's his character? If our heavenly father is perfect and we are to go on... leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, not laying the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, ...etc. (hebrews 6) ... unto perfection, we should seek out to know Him. And with diligence be willing to let him transform us and renew our minds and be conformed into the same character. Remember how a seed brings after its own kind? Well, we could all eat an olive and call it something different, but even without the gift of speech or hearing (say a deaf/mute) we could recognize that fruit having once tasted it. And father even bears witness that the fruit of the holy spirit is from Him. So, taste and see that the Lord is good. Seeing the glory of God in another brother or in a brother from the scriptures, especially the firstborn Son, is the revelation of who our Father is, the Lord of hosts is his name. So whats in a name? strongs # 3686 mentions authority, character. I always like 2nd peter as well, i dont think he mentions correct pronunciation or spelling in his directions on assuring an entrance into the kingdom of heaven...
However, there is important meanings and things to be learned and revealed through the sacred name(s), and all language, names and laws and creations, etc. I am just convinced that the seed planted whether wheat or tare is known by its fruit. in love, Beza |
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iammai
Senior Member
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 02:10:14
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Hello Folks,
I have a short addition to the conversation. I hope
you appreciate its simplicity and directness. If you
take the time to actually say the variants of the name,
and pay attention to how you feel after each utterance,
it should become clear to you which is the one to be used
when appropriate. At least that has been my experience.
Love & Blessings!,
Ishmael Aylwin
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Thoughts are things
The story your living is the story your telling yourself
The map is not the territory |
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David Merrill
Advanced Member
USA
1147 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 08:56:23
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Dear Bezaleel;
I feel that the Old Covenant is the foundation of understanding the New Covenant. "Name" by Hebrew/Aramaic definition is Strong's #8034. So add to authority and character; position and honor. Now we are getting somewhere! Standing in Judicio - position*. Court of Competent Jurisdiction - honor. What you Christians call Power of Prayer. Properly, Christian Qaballah as Christianity is properly a new(er) sect of Judaism.
From your perspective I presume adherence to Romans 13 and that seems to be a conundrum among many of the "Christians" here in this forum. Many of these people dabble in some of the pieces that do not fit; inner conflicts about subjecting to what feels like a commercial antichrist of international banking - METRO 1313's global municipality home rule etc. [Essentially Revelation 18:4.] But if it is any consolation, your faith has always kept the Bloodline safe. Imagine the Christian witchhunts through history for the descendants of your Saviour?
So I am with Ishmael Aylwin on the simple points integrated into his short message. He knows his name and therefore I deem him a sound contractor. He is quite masterful at relationship (contracts) and scientifically experiments with different utterances, allowing the Holy Spirit of God to produce a resonant or dampening effect (against the truth in his name) in his solar plexus (gut reaction). He has noticed that judgments occur and prayers are answered and simply notices the effect (empirical datum) without having to know who-called-who or where such-and-such intermediate process is filed.
But one thing he seems to believe is that God wishes Ishmael Aylwin to know His Name.
Regards,
David Merrill
* For this position in the counterfeit estate of fiat money, legal names and real estate one must dichotomize into MPD to re-present themselves pro se (Multiple Personality Disorder = schizophrenia). To attorn back the re-venue, one must endure capital integration.
From "Legal Identity; The Coming of Age of Public Law" by Joseph Vining; footnote at the bottom of p. 22quote:
It would be interesting to discover the degree to which a person in early society was "born again' when he was made an official. A postulant was born again when he became a monk, a squire when he entered knighthood, or a woman when she married. Each took a new name. It may be that only as the notion of the double personality of officials grew did the new name not replace the old, but was rather added to the old, so that an official had both a "private" name and a "title." It is the phenomenon of two names, of course, that has made possible the practice of filing suits for judicial review against "named individuals."
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Edited by - David Merrill on 12 Jul 2004 10:16:20 |
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iammai
Senior Member
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 02:06:00
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Dear David Merrill,
Do I really believe "that God wishes [me] to know His Name." ? Anyone who reads through this
entire thread has been exposed to several variations of His Name. If a person has read with
awaremess of their internal experience it does not matter wether or not he believes he should
know the name, he knows it. I am still working on my capital integration, but I do believe it
best to not argue with immediate experience. I must admit that a person must be able to separate
their immediate experience from their re-presentation of it before they can discern the experience
from their idea of it. A person learns to do this through practice. A simple but not neccessarily
easy first step to discovering truth; consciously discriminate between the map and the territory.
Take Care & God Bless!,
Ishmael Aylwin
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Thoughts are things
The story your living is the story your telling yourself
The map is not the territory |
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David Merrill
Advanced Member
USA
1147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 05:42:23
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Dear Ishmael Aylwin;
I said:
quote:
But one thing he seems to believe is that God wishes Ishmael Aylwin to know His Name.
I said that under the presumption that your experiments intoning the Name indicate you feel that way. There is an article above linked to Aish.com showing the prudence Orthodox Jewry practices in carefully teaching the extended pronunciation.
So far as the other pronunciations on this thread; hogwash, in my opinion. At least any that differ from what you find in Strong's, Young's and Richardson's concordances. I think it's silly to think anyone could convince me their personal revelation overrides expert Hebrew scholars.
Regards,
David Merrill.
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Edited by - David Merrill on 13 Jul 2004 05:43:51 |
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Manuel
Advanced Member
USA
762 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 09:55:27
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Yes, let us study this terrain before we land.
Many of us argue on what words we should pronounce when calling/naming that which is to be clearly understood. His-story calls and names many.
One example is "as a white sepulcher, but full of dead mens bones and everything unclean."
Another are the words and scathing damning as "hypocrites, dens of thieves, vipers etc."
I know what those pronounciations mean and stand against.
Now, there are those which say they are of God, Jesus, Yehoshuah, Jehova etc., but noticing where they stand and what they teach, and keep from teaching, a "gut feeling" tells me they couldn't possibly stand with His Truth. They are neither cold nor hot.
I am,
Manuel
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iammai
Senior Member
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 13:05:39
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Dear Manuel,
I awoke this morning with the word Jehovah (yi-ho-vah) repeating itself on my lips.
I don't remember what I was dreaming about, but as I came to full consciousness I realized
that there is one spelling of His Name above that was different than what the text about it
suggested it should be. It also occured to me that not everyone subvocalizes as they read,
although many do.
I am curious, will you please tell me the names consonant with the meanings you have given above.
More explicitly, what name means, "as a white sepulcher, but full of dead mens bones and
everything unclean" ? What name means, " scathing damning as 'hypocrites, dens of thieves,
vipers etc.'" ? And, to whom did each of these names, mean what you state ?
I know that for myself, there can be no single word for His Name, because He is not that limited,
and I will not mistake the map for the territory. If one speaks to create in His Name, than it
behooves one to use the name appropriate to what one has been called to create.
Blessings to you and yours.
I AM,
Ishmael Aylwin
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Thoughts are things
The story your living is the story your telling yourself
The map is not the territory |
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Manuel
Advanced Member
USA
762 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 16:47:53
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Greetings iammai,
"hypocrites, dens of thieves, vipers etc.," I can see that those words where used appropiately then, as well as now, to reveal the doctors of the law (attornies) and their appointed judges (attornies.)
"as a white sepulcher, but full of dead mens bones and everything unclean" I can see that those words clearly described then, as well as now, the so-called doctors of the law, the "judges" they appoint, and the plush "law offices" and JUDICIAL COURTHOUSES, LEGISLATIVE HALLS, and EXECUTIVE HALLS they rule from.
The many buildings and symbols they have raised show the following:
Moses holding the Ten Commandments, two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door, Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.,Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher,
whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1789.
I am,
Manuel
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iammai
Senior Member
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 01:26:39
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Dear Manuel,
Thank you for your explanation.
I see now that I mistunderstood
the import of your statement.
I AM,
Ishmael Aylwin [McIntosh] |
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Manuel
Advanced Member
USA
762 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 11:33:47
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Greetings Ishmael,
I should explain more what I mean and to whom/what I direct my comments.
On another "note," years ago I had a stereo system with a brand name McIntosh. Have not heard much now a days, but it was considered one of the best sound systems of those days.
His Grace and Light be upon you and your love ones,
I am,
Manuel |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2004 : 20:44:24
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The most famous man in history, and we wonder what his name is. Amazing!
{Just erase Jesus, being the verbal name he was called when he walked about}"They" called him:
Yahushua son of Yoseph.
Yahushua of Nazareth.
Paul call's him...Messiah Yahushuah and Yahushuah messiah. On purpose.
I think Yahushuah in the loneliness of his earthly walk,
disected his given name: Yahu=I Will Be. Shuah= Salvation.
He believed so strongly in this, that he laid down his life here, and sealed that belief in his own blood.
And Paul revealed that Yahushuah was the Firstborn among many more brethern who would have that same confession of faith. Wow.
Yahuweh stated that He called His son...out of Egypt. A many membered son.
The mystical Messiah.
Paul was so very well pleased when Yahuweh revealed His son...in him, i.e. Paul's mind-heart.Paul travailed with the younger brethern, till Messiah be formed in them, also.
Paul was a custodian of the Mysteries. Janitor-door opener. For years he "kicked against the prick's".
{Fought against the Divine revelation}
When the Light came, it was so bright, he went blind. Wow again.
To be baptised into the Name, has nothing to do with water...physical water.
The book of Acts explain's that many were baptised into John's baptism {water} and had as yet, not received the Baptism of the Name. hmmm, such cryptic stuff. It surely must seem that the Mystery was kept from those who would not...what? sacrifice? Sacrifice what?
The Word was made flesh. Way past Moses and his given revelations. But Moses knew "it" was going to come.
The new covenant is hidden in the old covenant.
{Though few there be that find it}
KJV language: God said to Moses: I am That I Am, that is my name.
Now when reading the new covenant red letter's, watch for; Yahushuah saying..."That I Am". Which is the second part of the sacred name...I Am... That I Am.
Eyah Asher Eyah...I Will Be What I Will to Be.
He willed to be Saviour in Yahushuah of Nazareth. And Yahushua said, "let's do it".
Now it is our turn.
KJV...Christ in you, is the hope of your glory.
Where?
Or we could argue, i before c except after an e.
And to you that look for him, shall He appear....
Blessings and salutations to those who look foreward to the next age, the age of the pouring out of the Living water's. For this is the age of the dawning of the age of Aquarius.
And no NEW AGE nut shall hijack eternal Truth.
"Follow the man carrying the pitcher of water, for he shall lead you to an upper room...fully furnished".
The next level.
Since man went to great expense to hide the sacred names of the Father and Son, will you ask yourself, why?
I mean to say, that if it is as simple as "saying" Yahshua vs. Jesus...Yahuweh vs. God, one has missed the Revelation.
Here in the new testament writings we have Yahushuah saying to Phillip, [paraphrased} Phil, ya wanna see YHWH? Look into my face".
YaHuWeH is Spirit. Looking for tabernacle's that will invite Him in, at whatever cost.
Brought to you by; Robert of IOWA.
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iammai
Senior Member
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2004 : 01:37:15
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Hello Robert,
You make excellent points, and I agree with you wholly.
I also know that there is real power in the Word correctly
used, and everything is vibration which we create most
consciously through our speech.
God Bless!,
Ishmael Aylwin
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Thoughts are things
The story your living is the story your telling yourself
The map is not the territory |
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David Merrill
Advanced Member
USA
1147 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2004 : 04:09:37
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Dear Robert James;
His name is no more Yehushauh than yours is "Robert-James". And no more Yehuwah than yours is "Robert of IOWA". Check the standards. Listen to the experts.
The point being your parents did not hyphenate "Robert-James" and therefore it is not your name. It is a nickname or whatever. "Robert of IOWA" sounds more like an epithet. You have three names here on this Page, presuming your parents named you "Robert James". On a premise you can have more than one true name, you may make up anything you want and we should believe that any one, even "Robert of IOWA" is your name.
But that is a faulty premise. At least I believe that it allows for falsity. Should we believe your name is "Micky Mouse" too? Just because you say so. When one, "feigns self to be another" that is NAKAR Strong's #5234 - foreigner of Deuteronomy 15:1-3 and stranger of Deuteronomy 23:20. Of course! Who would trust a man who introduces himself by different names at different times? Alienate - estrange. In just two verses you subject yourself to usury and cannot claim the Seven Year Release from debt. So in a Zionist (Khazarian/Ashkenazim) oriented banking system you are really messed up financially [in the original estate; not the debt currency systems of the world]. Evidence of criminal activity, your many names, will cause forfeiture. Before you can make peaceable reentry into the original estate, you will have to properly identify yourself.
So try not to boil the confusion over onto sacred theophoric names like the Father Yehovah and Messiah Yehoshuah.
Regards,
David Merrill.
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Edited by - David Merrill on 26 Jul 2004 09:47:26 |
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iammai
Senior Member
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2004 : 14:30:55
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Dear David Merrill,
Although I in no way disagree with the specifics of your statements against
Robert James, it seems to me you missed the real thrust of what he was stating.
Or, maybe you've chosen to ignore it because you recognize the value of names used
well. Or, maybe I've read more into his writing than he intended. In any case,
I read his message to be claiming that it is more important that we embrace the
living spirit, the Holy Ghost, than argue over the spelling and pronounciation of
names. From the __Gospel of Thomas__:
Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the father will be forgiven,
and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever
blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven either on earth
or in heaven."
At the same time, I trust your assesment to be correct with respect to Robert
James' ability to succeed with with process as you have. To accept the living
spirit, is no gurantee of capital integration, but only of forgiveness and the
opportunity to try again.
FWIW, it is unlikely that Yehoshuah referred to the most high as YHVH. Of course,
their are several words used to refer to him, that get reduced to a smaller set
in English. The word he most likely used to mean the aspect of supreme being,
where we use 'God' in English, would have been 'Allaha', Unity, in Aramaic.
Allaha and YHVH, are very different references to the truth of the process of
Creation. (That final hypostatization was very deliberate. Ahh, the weakness
of written language to communicate.)
Love & Blessings!,
Ishmael Aylwin
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Thoughts are things
The story your living is the story your telling yourself
The map is not the territory |
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David Merrill
Advanced Member
USA
1147 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2004 : 18:46:22
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Dear Readers;
I did not repeat myself from a page back but I was seriously mislead by a minister a few years back who adhered to the "Yehu" prefix. So my statement is not against Robert James but the doctrine that he persists with here. Also a page back I was fairly determined to let the thread go about its way, having said what I had to say. But "Robert-James" or "Robert of IOWA" made an opening for me to clarify why it is amazing that we could still be discussing the validity of proven standards.
About the gist of what Robert James was saying; it missed me altogether. I would not allow somebody who insists on the falsity of the "Yehu" prefix teach me word one. But I will examine what you are saying Ishmael Aylwin and just say that I would never be one to underestimate God's grace. However, I think that is a Futuristic Christian concept that is oriented about an eternal afterlife, irrelevant to a kingdom of heaven on earth. And you agree that here is where process can be properly handled to manage property and rights thereto.
You bring up a wonderful point about Yehoshuah and how he would have referred to the Father in heaven. Of course being post John Hercanus (125 BC) in Jewish company Yehoshuah would have used titles like "Adonia" and "Elohim" verbally. I linked an article with Aish.com about the reverence a page back, "A comprehensive guide to the philosophy and laws of pronouncing the Name of God."
www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Respecting_God_in_Speech.asp
So let's say that is correct that advanced and Torah literate students were taught the sacred ineffible name. So let us say that Yehoshuah would have had the Name YHVH properly in his thoughts and muttered prayers.
So upon some Bible studies it has been speculated about the writing in the sand, you know, when Jesus was convincing the ad hoc jury to spare the harlot, "Let him among you who has not sinned throw the first stone." That event:
1) Yehoshuah was spelling out the prescription for testing adultery. There is an Old Covenant test for adultery where the priest writes a passage on paper and steeps the paper in tea and the woman drinks it. If she survives the ink poisoning, she is innocent. Problem is, Yehoshuah was writing in the sand; he probably would have gone full with the prescribed test if at all.
2) Yehoshuah was writing the full ineffible Name. A display of authority in being right with God. This would probably be with expressed or implied admission by the posse of entrapment. If the woman were caught "in the very act" then which man set her up? Adultery is an action that takes two. Only the woman was threatened with a stoning. So it is implied that the men had seduced her into the weakness with a male for bait.
So I believe that the latter may be the case. It is pretty clear from the scripture that Yehoshuah was writing something in the sand. I believe it was likely the 72-Fold Name.
www.ecclesia.org/forum/images/suitors/72foldName.gif
Regards,
David Merrill
P.S. I have not forgotten the title of this Topic is, "His name is not Yehushuah" so I am right in the subject matter to attack the "Yehu" doctrine. But it would be interesting if that is what 2-elect meant when he titled the Topic? Is this the intended debate? |
Edited by - David Merrill on 26 Jul 2004 20:22:27 |
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His name is not Yahushua
