ECCLESIASTIC COMMONWEALTH COMMUNITY
ECCLESIASTIC COMMONWEALTH COMMUNITY
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 His Ecclesia
 Matters Effecting the Ecclesia
 Christian Liberty: Let the dead bury the dead
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Admin
Forum Administrator

Saint Kitts and Nevis
114 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2001 :  02:29:11  Show Profile  Visit Admin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Christian Liberty: Let the Dead Bury the Dead
(click the blue floppy icon to view/download the entire post)

This article is not intended to cover all Law nor all situations. Rather, the intent is to show to His ecclesia [church] the Authority and Power they possess, both individually and collectively, through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Messiah, all of which is recognized within man's judicial decisions.

We desire that all within His ecclesia [ekklesia] will take up their inherent spiritual Weapons and Armor and engage those principalities and powers which are destroying their Lives and most valuable and cherished Christian Liberties. It is no longer enough to "go to church" and practice "-isms" until you get it right because you never will get it right. It is no longer acceptable to receive and act on faulty and defeatist eschatology, that is, an eschatology which denies the Omnipotence of God. Posterity asks better of Us, and God demands the best in Us. So, why bother letting others, who choose to remain in "-isms," judge you when you have not even exercised your God-vested Liberty in Christ Jesus?

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. - Mark 12:27

Uncle Buck
Advanced Member

Australia
134 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2005 :  04:34:35  Show Profile  Visit Uncle Buck's Homepage  Reply with Quote
How often do we take a writer's opinion as gospel truth? Does the writer in the following extract confuse legitimate authority (and the exercise of power based on that legitimate authority) with illegitimate power disguised as legitimate authority? Does a christian only have to obey godly Authority?

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers."
ROMANS 13:1
The Christian's Responsibility to Government
by
John MacArthur


A. The Definitions

That's the principle. It's unqualified, unlimited, and unconditional.

The phrase translated "every soul" is a Hebraism for "every person." The emphasis is on every individual person. Each of us has a very precise duty. The verb translated "be subject" is an imperative. The Greek word is hupotasso, a military term meaning, "to line up to take your orders." Every one of us should get in line to submit to those who are commanding us. Who does the commanding? The higher powers. The phrase literally means, "The authorities who have authority over us." That is a double phrase in the Greek text, exousiais huperexousais. They are the supreme ruling power. They're called "rulers" in verse 3. The text makes no distinction between good rulers and bad rulers, or fair laws and unfair laws. In fact, it was the obedience of Christians, to unfair laws and unjust rulers in times of persecution during the early years of the Roman Empire, that brought tolerance and eventually acceptance of Christianity within that empire.


http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg45-97.htm


In another part of the website the following Q & A appears to contradict the above. If authority must be obeyed to a secular power why shouldn't it be obeyed to a pastor with Godly authority?


The following "Question" was asked by a member of the congregation at Grace Community Church in Panorama City, California, and "Answered" by their pastor, John MacArthur Jr. It was transcribed from the tape, GC 70-12, titled "Questions and Answers--Part 40." A copy of the tape can be obtained by writing, Word of Grace, P.O. Box 4000, Panorama City, CA 91412 or by dialing toll free 1-800-55-GRACE. Copyright 2001 by John MacArthur Jr., All Rights Reserved.

Question

This question is concerning elders’ authority or pastors’ authority over the flock of God. I’m a visitor here and I’m looking to get some biblical and spiritual training. In making a big decision on where I might want to go to get this training, I feel it’s important to seek good, godly counsel. An elder and a pastor is certainly an appropriate person to go to.

My question then is how much liberty does a pastor, an elder have in advising us when or where we should go to get this training?
Answer

I believe that as far as authority, the only authority any pastor or elder has is the Word of God. When you step beyond the Word of God, you’ve overstepped the bounds of your authority. I have no authority, if you’re in my congregation, to say to you, “Go here and get this training. Go there. I command you to...”--I have no authority to do that. That is overstepping my bounds. I am nothing more and nothing less than an instrument by which God makes known to you his revelation. That’s my role.

Now, I may say to you, “Given the circumstances, I would recommend this because it appears from what I know about that and what I know about you that this would be a good choice,” but that is not authority; that is counsel. My authority stops when I close the page of this book, and then all I’m doing is giving you counsel. You can consider that counsel as to its inherent value and make your own decision. But I have no authority to command you, beyond the pages of the Word of God.

That very point is where pastor's and elder's leadership becomes out-of-bounds and abusive and overbearing. God never intended that. The best we can do is give wise counsel. That’s why the Old Testament says, “In much counsel, there is wisdom.” The point is there. If God wanted us to just listen to one guy, He would say, “If you want to know what to do, go ask the elder.” But He says, “Get much counsel and you’ll get wisdom.” So I believe that our authority stops where scripture ends and then the best we can do is try to give wise counsel based upon our best understanding of the facts.

Added to Bible Bulletin Board's "MacArthur’s Questions and Answers" by:

Tony Capoccia
Bible Bulletin Board
Box 119
Columbus, New Jersey, USA, 08022
Websites: www.biblebb.com and www.gospelgems.com
Email: [email protected]
Online since 1986



*************************
If I have to be like him who is going to be like me?
James 1:25 The Perfect Law of Liberty

Edited by - Uncle Buck on 21 May 2005 04:39:29
Go to Top of Page

Lee
Junior Member

USA
19 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2005 :  23:51:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The last paragraph from the linked (http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg45-97.htm) article by John MacArthur reads:

"2. Suppose the government you lived under suddenly denied you all the social and political freedoms you now enjoy. How would you respond? Look up the following verses: Romans 13:1; 1 Timothy 2:1-3; Titus 3:1-2; 1 Peter 2:12-17. Based on the instruction of Scripture, how should your response to the government that gives you freedom differ from the one that denies you freedom? Please be obedient to God's Word by being obedient to your government."

I didn't read all the article. But I did read enough to question the agenda of the writer.

First of all, John errs in assuming our freedoms come from government instead of our Creator. This is the typical stand of the extreme left wing of politics.

(Acts 5:29 KJV) Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I agree that we should obey our government in all things that are in line with obeying God. But to imply that our freedoms come from our government is close to having another god before the True God or setting up government as an object of idol worship.

Bro Lee
Go to Top of Page

Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2005 :  08:19:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and salutations in the name of our King, brothers and sisters:

Peace be unto the house.

Show of hands, Please; how many people here perceive that Yahushua [Yahshua/Yeshua/Y’shua/Iesous/Iesus/JESUS], who was, and is, the Anointed King/Presiding Officer over Yahuwâh’s [Yahweh’s/Yehowah’s/Yehovah’s/Jehovah’s/the LORD’s] Never-Ending Kingdom ever thought of, let alone spoke of, the Roman Empire as, his government?

Yahushua answered, My kingdom is not of this world [Gr. kosmos, arrangement]…

Our citizenship is in Yahuwâh’s Kingdom, Presided over by Yahushua, we obey him and his perfect Law of liberty, if perchance that obedience to him and his government appears to coincide with the worldly government’s so-called law, that’s great, for they being puffed up [the leavening of Herod], will believe that we are obeying them, when in fact we are obeying our ‘Elohiym [Ruler/God] and not them at all, for Yahuwâh’s citizens are not of the world (worldly arrangements; governments not ordained by Yahuwâh), as it is written.

That verse that this brother or sister posted, We ought to obey God rather than men, does not say we ought to obey men except when it goes against God. It says we ought to obey Yahuwâh before [Gr. mallon] men!

Thou shalt have no other ‘Elohiym (Ruler/God) before me.

Before in these last two sentences means above, i.e. we ought to obey Yahuwâh above men; we ought to obey Yahuwâh instead of men.

This coming week their Supreme Court is going to decide if it is Constitutional for the Ten Commandments, which they are referring to as “the Ten Commands”, to be posted on government property. The answer to this, will tell all the people of the earth whether Yahuwâh ordained this government of men, or not.

A yes vote will mean it is; a no vote will mean it is not. Simple as that!

A no decision will mean that they who administer this government of men do not love Yahuwâh with all their heart, and with all their soul, and with all their mind.

Thou shalt love Yahuwâh thy ‘Elohiym (Ruler/God) with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

And if it is not ordained by Yahuwâh, the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, then according to Leviticus 18:1-5 and Romans 13:1, we are not to obey it.

After the doings of the land of Egypt (bondage), wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan (commerce), whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am YaHuWâH your ‘Elohiym (Ruler/God). Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am YaHuWâH. Leviticus 18:1-5

For there is no [true] authority but of Yahuwâh: the [true] authority that be, are ordained of Yahuwâh.

Yahushua…Hail Yahuwâh!!!


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el,
NOT[/u] the man-made, fictional USA.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
An act done by me against my will is not[/b] my act.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 24 Jun 2005 08:53:54
Go to Top of Page

Uncle Buck
Advanced Member

Australia
134 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2005 :  01:10:33  Show Profile  Visit Uncle Buck's Homepage  Reply with Quote
My commonwealth is in heaven - Phillipians 3:20

Clean hands - pureheart!

*************************
If I have to be like him who is going to be like me?
James 1:25 The Perfect Law of Liberty
Go to Top of Page

Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2005 :  06:02:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and salutations from the Kingdom, Uncle Buck:

Peace be unto the house.

Now the only question is…where on earth is “heaven”?

And Yahuwâh called the firmament (raqiya) heaven.

So what is a “firmament”? We get this from the Online Etymology Dictionary:

Firmament
c.1250, from L. firmamentum "firmament," lit. "a support or strengthening," from firmus "firm" (see firm (adj.)), used in Vulgate to translate Gk. stereoma "firm or solid structure," which translated Heb. raqia, a word used of both the vault of the sky and the floor of the earth in the O.T., probably lit. "expanse," from raqa "to spread out," but in Syriac meaning "to make firm or solid," hence the erroneous translation.


We have much to work with here but let us take the quick way out first. It states in the above etymology that this concept is probably from the Hebrew raqato spread out.

Spread out? Did they say, “spread out”?

(113) His disciples said to him, “When will the Kingdom come?”
Yahu’shua said, “It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying ‘Here it is’ or ‘There it is.’ Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it.”


Ah, it’s probably just a coinkydink (coincidence) that those exact words were used in verse 113 from the Good Tidings [Gospel] of Thomas, right? But wait!! It also says something about the Hebrew word raqia being used in reference to “the floor of the earth”.

Okay, we see "a support", "firm", "see firm", “firm or solid structure,” “to make firm or solid”. Now top it off with this; Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Lexicon begins it’s definition of the Hebrew word raqia with this: 1) extended surface (solid)…and ends it with this: 1b1) considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting

That doesn’t sound much like air, clouds or the perfect vacuum of outer space, does it? Makes us wonder… Have we been lied to concerning the whereabouts of the Kingdom of heaven?

HEAVEN, n. hev'n. 1. The region or expanse which surrounds the earth… 5. The Hebrews acknowledged three heavens; the air or aerial heavens; the firmament in which the stars are supposed to be placed; and the heaven of heavens, or third heaven, the residence of Jehovah. – Webster’s 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language

In that definition above we can deduce, by process of elimination, that according to the Hebrews, the “residence of Jehovah” is notthe air or aerial heavens” (where the birds fly) and it is notthe firmament in which the stars are suppose to be placed” (the perfect vaccuum of outerspace)… so what “on earth” does that leave us with as the “residence of Jehovah”, brothers and sisters?

And Yahuwah said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Let’s see now, Yahuwâh divided the waters that were underneath (Heb. tachath) the firmament from the waters that were upon (Heb. ‘al) the firmament. Could the waters that are upon the floor of the earth (firmament) be the seas, lakes, rivers, brooks, etc.? Could it be that the waters that are under the floor of the earth (firmament) are the so-called groundwater, which are sometimes found thousands of feet deep? If this is truth then that would mean that the “residence of Jehovah” is on the earth!!

Blessed are those with contrite and humble hearts: for they shall inherit the earth.


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional USA.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
An act done by me against my will is not my act.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 25 Jun 2005 07:06:01
Go to Top of Page

Uncle Buck
Advanced Member

Australia
134 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2005 :  10:21:38  Show Profile  Visit Uncle Buck's Homepage  Reply with Quote

G'day bros!
I am pleased you used the term 'residence' rather than domicile. Phil 1:27

It seems to me that Christians are to be citizens of heaven on earth therefore residing on earth until our Lord Jesus Christ (God) comes again to take us to the new domicile He has prepared.

Reminds me of 2 Kings 4 - the lady wants the man of God to live with her - she watched him passing by and wanted the presence of God in her house. The irony is she was residing on His turf and He wanted her to be domiciled in his land permanently.

We are to live a life as citizens of heaven on earth! Do it now!

Thanks for the awesome insights Bros Robert! My head hurts and its full! Can I go home now?


*************************
If I have to be like him who is going to be like me?
James 1:25 The Perfect Law of Liberty
Go to Top of Page

Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 26 Jun 2005 :  06:33:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and salutations brother Rick:

Peace be unto the house. (Peace be unto the residence just doesn't have the same ring to it.)

brother Rick wrote: I am pleased you used the term 'residence' rather than domicile.

For the record, we actually didn’t use the term 'residence'; Noah Webster c. 1828 did, and we were merely quoting him.

The terms “resident” and “residence” have no precise legal meaning…” - Black’s Law Dictionary, Abridged Sixth Edition, page 907

Domicile. A person’s legal home. – Black’s Law Dictionary, Abridged Sixth Edition, page 337

Neither “residence” or “domicile” are words that we normally use in describing the house of anyone who is a fellow citizen of the Kingdom of Yahuwâh, but if one feels inclined to use either of them, we strongly suggest that you have a Definitions Page attached to any paperwork you might be presenting to the STATE, which is something we recommend anyway, since it may serve to take away presumptions before they occur.

Psalm 132:5 Until I find out a place for Yahuwâh, an habitation for the mighty One of Ya’aqob.

Psalm 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of Yahuwâh for ever.

brother Rick wrote: It seems to me that Christians are to be citizens of heaven on earth therefore residing on earth until our Lord Jesus Christ (God) comes again to take us to the new domicile He has prepared.

Reside. Live, dwell, abide, sojourn, stay, remain, lodge… – Black’s Law Dictionary, Abridged Sixth Edition, page 907

Though we Live and move and have our being in Him (Yahuwâh), we Dwell on the earth, we Sojourn with Him as Strangers to their Arrangement (world).

Again, since reside's “legal meaning” is vague, to say the least, we recommend a Definitions Page on all paperwork, For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Just curious brother Rick, where is this “new domicile”? We are weak in this knowledge.

(KJV-1611) In my Fathers house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would haue told you: I goe to prepare a place for you.


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional USA.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
An act done by me against my will is not my act.

P.S. Full? We've only scratched the surface.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 26 Jun 2005 07:30:53
Go to Top of Page

Manuel
Advanced Member

USA
762 Posts

Posted - 26 Jun 2005 :  11:23:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"...Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." John 5:19.

Declaration of Independence
[Adopted in Congress 4 July 1776]
The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America
When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. ...



The warning of Theodore Roosevelt has much timeliness today, for the real menace of our republic is this invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy length over city, state and nation. Like the octopus of real life, it operates under cover of a self-created screen. It seizes in its long and powerful tentacles our executive officers, our legislative bodies, our schools, our courts, our newspapers, and EVERY agency created for the public protection. It squirms in the jaws of darkness and thus is the better able to clutch the reins of government, secure enactment of the legislation favorable to corrupt business, violate the law with impunity, smother the press and reach into the courts.

To depart from mere generalizations, let me say that AT THE HEAD of this octopus are the Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as the INTERNATIONAL bankers. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes. They practically control BOTH parties, write political platforms, make cats paws of party leaders, use the leading men of private organizations, and resort to every device to place in nomination for high public office only such candidates as will be amenable to the dictates of corrupt big business. They connive at CENTRALIZATION of government on the theory that a small group of hand-picked, privately controlled individuals in power can be more easily handled than a larger group among whom there will most likely be men sincerely interested in public welfare. These international bankers and Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests control the majority of newspapers and magazines in this country. They use the columns of these papers to club into submission or drive out of office public officials who refuse to do the bidding of the powerful corrupt cliques which compose the invisible government. [New York City Mayor John Hylan, as reported in the New York times.]

"We know the powers that are defying the people. Our Government is in the hands of pirates. [Skull and Bones] All the power of politics, and of Congress, and of the administration is under the control of the moneyed interests. The adversary has the force of capital, thousands of millions of which are in his hand. He will grasp the knife of law, which he has so often wielded in his interest. He will lay hold of his forces in the legislature. He will make use of his forces in the press, which are always waiting for the wink, which is as good as a nod to a blind horse. Political rings are managed by skillful and unscrupulous political gamblers, who possess the 'machine' by which the populace are at once CONTROLLED AND CRUSHED." [New York Times editor John Swinton in his book, "A Momentous Question: The Respective Attitudes of Labor and Capital."]

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the Government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson..." [Franklin D. Roosevelt in a letter to Col. Edward Mandell House 1933.]



"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues, for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities."
Revelation 18:4-5.


And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever; just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be hereafter. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure. Daniel 2:44-45.

Go to Top of Page

Mark
Senior Member

USA
55 Posts

Posted - 26 Jun 2005 :  13:34:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Manuel

The warning of Theodore Roosevelt has much timeliness today, for the real menace of our republic is this invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy length over city, state and nation. Like the octopus of real life, it operates under cover of a self-created screen. It seizes in its long and powerful tentacles our executive officers, our legislative bodies, our schools, our courts, our newspapers, and EVERY agency created for the public protection. It squirms in the jaws of darkness and thus is the better able to clutch the reins of government, secure enactment of the legislation favorable to corrupt business, violate the law with impunity, smother the press and reach into the courts.

To depart from mere generalizations, let me say that AT THE HEAD of this octopus are the Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as the INTERNATIONAL bankers. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes. They practically control BOTH parties, write political platforms, make cats paws of party leaders, use the leading men of private organizations, and resort to every device to place in nomination for high public office only such candidates as will be amenable to the dictates of corrupt big business. They connive at CENTRALIZATION of government on the theory that a small group of hand-picked, privately controlled individuals in power can be more easily handled than a larger group among whom there will most likely be men sincerely interested in public welfare. These international bankers and Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests control the majority of newspapers and magazines in this country. They use the columns of these papers to club into submission or drive out of office public officials who refuse to do the bidding of the powerful corrupt cliques which compose the invisible government. [New York City Mayor John Hylan, as reported in the New York times.]

"We know the powers that are defying the people. Our Government is in the hands of pirates. [Skull and Bones] All the power of politics, and of Congress, and of the administration is under the control of the moneyed interests. The adversary has the force of capital, thousands of millions of which are in his hand. He will grasp the knife of law, which he has so often wielded in his interest. He will lay hold of his forces in the legislature. He will make use of his forces in the press, which are always waiting for the wink, which is as good as a nod to a blind horse. Political rings are managed by skillful and unscrupulous political gamblers, who possess the 'machine' by which the populace are at once CONTROLLED AND CRUSHED." [New York Times editor John Swinton in his book, "A Momentous Question: The Respective Attitudes of Labor and Capital."]

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the Government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson..." [Franklin D. Roosevelt in a letter to Col. Edward Mandell House 1933.]



Just a friendly reminder:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
Col 1:16-17 [emphasis added]

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Isa 45:7

Regardless of how you chose to perceive it or look at it, it is all good.

Peace, Mark


P.S. Solid post on 'residence' oneisraelite, thanks.

Edited by - Mark on 26 Jun 2005 13:42:38
Go to Top of Page

Uncle Buck
Advanced Member

Australia
134 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2005 :  18:41:02  Show Profile  Visit Uncle Buck's Homepage  Reply with Quote
G'day folks! an especial thankyou to bro Robert (and his side kick!) for making me re-search and think.

bro Robert wrote: "Just curious brother Rick, where is this “new domicile”? We are weak in this knowledge."

Let’s see now, Yahuwâh divided the waters that were underneath (Heb. tachath) the firmament from the waters that were upon (Heb. ‘al) the firmament. Could the waters that are upon the floor of the earth (firmament) be the seas, lakes, rivers, brooks, etc.? Could it be that the waters that are under the floor of the earth (firmament) are the so-called groundwater, which are sometimes found thousands of feet deep? If this is truth then that would mean that the “residence of Jehovah” is on the earth!!

Don't you hate logic? Not.

Systematic Theology
Charles Hodge
(Presbyterian Church)
Volume Two
Part III
Soteriology
pp 596-609
chapter XI
KINGLY OFFICE OF CHRIST


1. The Church God's Kingdom

God as the creator and preserver of the universe, and as an infinite inhis being and perfections, is, in virtue of his nature, the absolute sovereign of all his creatures. This sovereignty He exercises over teh material world by his wisdom and power, and over rational beings as a moral ruler. From this rightful authority of God, our race revolted, and thereby became a part of the kingdom of darkness of which Satan is the head. To this kingdom the mas of mankind has ever since belonged. But God, in his grace and mercy, determined to deliver men from the consequences of their apostasy. He not only announced the coming of a Redeemer who should destory the power of Satan, but He at once inauguratedan antagonistic kingdom, consisting of men chosen out of hte world, and through the renewing of the Holy Ghost restored to their allegiance. Until the time of Abraham this kingdom does not appear to have had any visibile organisation apart from the families of the people of God. Every pious household was a church of which the parent was the priest.

To prevent the universal spread of idolatry, to preserve the knowledge of trut, to gather in his elect, and to prepare the way for teh coming of the promised Redeemer, God entered into covenant with the father of the faithfu and with his descendants through Isaac, constituting them his visible kingdom, and making them the depositaries and guardians of his supernatural revelations. In his covenant He promised eternal life upon condition of faith in Him that was to come.

When Moses led the Isrealites out of Egypt, they were made a theocracy so constituted in its officers, in its institutions, and in its services, as not only to preserve alive the knowledge of God's purpose and plan of salvation, but also to set forth the character, offices, and work of the promised seed of Abraham in whom all the nations of the earth were to be blessed.

The kingdom of God, therfore, as consisting of those who acknowledge, worship, love, and obey Jehovah as the only living and true God, has existed in our world ever since the fall of Adam. It has ever been the light and life of the world. It is the salt by which it is preserved. It is the leaven by wich it is ultimately to be pervaded. To gather his people into his kingdom, and to carry it on to its consummation, is the end of all God's dispensations, and the prupose for which his eternal Son assumed our nature. He was born to be a king. To this end He lived and died and rose again, that He might be Lord of all those given to Him by the Father.

2. Christ is Truly a King
Although the kingdom of God had existed from the beginning, yet as everything therewith connected before the Advent was merely preparatory, the Scriptures constantly speak of the Messiah as a king who was to set up a kingdom into which in the end all other kingdoms were to be merged. The most familiar designation applied to Him in the Scriptures is Lord. But Lord means proprietor and ruler; and when used of God or Christ, it means absolute proprietor and sovereign ruler. Apart from Christ's right in us and sovereignty over us as God, He as the God-man is our Lord. We belong to Him by the purchase of his blood, and God has set Him as King on his holy hill of Zion.

......In the New Testament Christ is set forth as a king, in harmony with the predictions which foretold his advent. The Angel Gabriel, in announcing to the Virgin Mary the approaching birth of the Messiah said, (Luke i. 31-33). John the Baptist "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". (Matt. iii.2.). And our Lord himself, when He entered upon his personal ministry, went everywhere preaching, "the gospel of the kingdom of God". (Mark i. 14.) MuMuch of his teacing was devoted to setting forth the nature of the kingdom which He came to establish

Nothing, therefore, is more certain, according to the Scriptures, than that Christ is a king; and consequently, if we would retain the truth concerning Him and his work, He must be so regarded in our theology and religion.

3. Nature of Christ's Kingdom
Although the kingdom of God on earth was set up immediately after the fall, yet as the Messiah was to come to make all things new, and to take into his hands as the Theanthropos the administration of this kingdom, the Old Testament predicted, and the New Testament announces, the establishment of a new kingdom as a consequence of his advent.

The word basileiva is used in Scripture in three senses. [refer to endnote]
(1) For royal authority or dominion; such as it is the prerogative of a king to exercise.
(2) For those who are subject to that authority. Among men any community, or commonwealth, or territory subject to a king, constitutes his kingdom. And in the New Testament, those who acknowledge Christ as their king constitute his kingdom.
(3) The word is used metonymicaly for the effects of the exercise of royal authority.

It is to be understood in the first of these senses in all those cases in which a kngdom or dominion is said to be given to Christ; or when we pray, Thy kingdom come, or when it is said, Of his kingdom there is no end. It is used in the second sense when men are said to enter into the kingdom of Christ, or to be cast out of it, or when the character of those is described who are to constitute that kingdom. And it is used in the third sense when men are said to inherit, to see (or enjoy), to seek, and to value more than hid treasure, the kingdom of God. Hence also the kingdom of God is said to consist in righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Such are the effects of thereign of Christ.

This kingdom is called the kingdom of Christ, or of the Son of God, because administered by Him. The royal authority is vested in Him. It is called the kingdom o fGod, because Christ is God, and because it is the kingdom which God was to establish on earth in distinction from the kingdoms of men. It is called the kingdom of heaven, because its king dwells in heaven, because it is spiritual and heavenly, and because it is to be consummated in heaven. Various as are the applications and uses of these designations in the New Testament, they are included under the general idea of the Messianic kingdom; that kingdom which the Messiah came into the world to establish. That kingdom, however, is presented in different aspects, or, in other words, Christ exercises his royal authority, so to speak, in different spheres.

Christ's Dominion over the Universe
Christ has what theologians are accustomed to call his kingdom of power. As Theanthropos and as Mediator, all power in heaven and upon earth has been committed to his hands. (Matt. xxvii. 18.) In Psalm vii. 6, it is declared to be the purpose of God that all things should be putunder the feet of man. This purpose, we are taught by the Apostle, God fulfilled in the exaltation of Christ, "when he raised him from the dea, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, an dmight, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come, and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church." (Eph. i. 20-22). In 1 Corintinas xv. 27, the argument is pushed to its utmost extreme. Whena l things are said to be put under the feet of Christ, nothing is to be excepted from this subjection, except Him "which did put all things under him." And in Hebrews ii. 8, it is said, "In that he put all (the universe) in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him." The same universality of dominion is implied in Christ's sitting at the right hand of God. As this session on the throne of God involves equality with God in glory and dominion, it cannot be said of any creature. And as it is said of Christ it proves that Christ is a divine person, and is invested with all the power and authority of God. This is the Apostle's argument in Hebrews i. 13, "To which of the angels (to what created being) said he at any time, Sit on my right hand?" The Apostle says to the Philippians, that Him, who though equal with God was gound in fashion of man, "God hath highly exalted, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things, in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth." (Phil ii. 9-10.) This is a perfectly exhaustive statement. All in heaven, all in earth, and all under the earth, include all rational creatures. The person to whom they are to bow the knee is Jesus, not the Logos, but the God-man. An the acknowledgment which they are to make is, that He is Lord ie. their Lord, their absolute proprietor and Sovereign. It is in this sense also, that the Apostle says (Heb i. 2), that God hath appointed the Son heir of all things. It is invirtue of this dominion over the universe that Christ is caled Lord of lords and King of kings, ie. the Sovereign over all other sovereigns in heaven and on earth.

This universal authority is exercised in a providential control, and for the benefit of his Church. He employs the angels asministering spirits, to minister to the heirs of salvation. He controls and restrains the principalities, powers, world-rulers, and spirits of wickedness. (Eph vi. 12) He overrrules all the affairs of nations and of individuals to the same end. He directs all events concerning his people severally and his Church collectively. Paul constantly recognised this providential control of Christ as directing all his steps. Under the present dispensation, therefore, Christ is the God of providence. It is in and through and by Him that the universe is governed. This dominion or kingdom is to last until its object is accomplished, ie. until all his enemies, all forms of evil, and even death itself is subdued. Then this kingdom, this mediatorial government of the universe, is to be given up. (1 Cor xv.24)

Christ's Spiritual Kingdom
But besides this kingdom of power, Christ has a kingdom of grace. This also is exhibited under two aspects. It includes the relation in which He stands to his true people indivually and collectively ( the invisible Church); and the relation He sustains to the visible Church, or the body of his professing people.

He is king of every believing soul. He translates it from the kingdom of darkness. He brings it into subjection to Himself. He rules in and reigns over it. Every believer recognises Christ as his abslute Sovereign; Lord of his inward, as well as of his outward, life. He yields to Him the entire subjection of the reason, of the conscience, and of the heart. In Him he trusts for protection from all enemies, seen and unseen. On Him he relies for help in every emergency, and for final triumph. n Him the loyalty of the believer terminates. To acquit himself as a good solider of Jesus Christ, to spend and be spent in his service and in the promotion of his kingdom, becomes the governing purpose of his life.

The terms of admission into he spiritual kingdom are faith and repentance (John iii 3,5) or conversion (Matt xviii. 3).....

On the other hand, we are taught that no external profession secures admission into this kingdom......
Matt. vii. 21
Matt. v. 20
Rom ii. 28
Gal v. 6
1 Pet iii. 21
Matt iii. 9
Rom ix. 6

The laws of this kingdom require first and above all, faith in Jesus Christ; the sincere belief that He is the Son of God and the Saviour of the world, and cordial submission to Him and trustin Him as our prophet, priest, and king. With this faith is united supreme love....... Christ requires his disciples to honour Him as they honour the Father. (John v. 23) They ar to believe in Him (put the same confidence in Him), as they do in God. (John xiv. 1) It is the same offence under the new dispensation to refuse to worship Christ as God manifest in the flesh, that it was under the old economy to refuse to worship Jehovah as the only living and true God. In both cases it was a violation of the fundamental law of the kingdom, and of necessity worked excision from God's people. but if we are to recognise Christ as Thomas did (John xx. 28) , as our Lord and our God, then of course we are bound not only to worship , but to obey Him. We stnd to Him in the same relation that a slave does to his master, except that our subjection to Him is voluntary and joyful. We belong to Him, not only as the Creator, being his creatures, but also as the Thenthropos, being purchased by his blood. (1 Cor vi. 19-20). His will, and not our own, must govern our conduct, and determine the use we make of our powers. All we gain, whether ofknowledge, wealth, or influence, is his. He, and not we ourselves, is the object or end of our living. It is Christ for believers to live. His glory and the advancement of his kingdom, are the only legitimate objects to which they can devote their powers or resources; the only ends consistent with their relation to Christ, and the full enjoyment of the blessedness which membership in his kingdom secures.

The laws of the kingdom moreover require not only these duties to Christ, but that his people should be holy in heart and life. They must be poor in spirit, meek, merciful, peace-makers, long-suffering; ready to forgive; disinterested, not seeking their own; bearing all things; believing all things; and hoping all things. They are forbidden to be avaricious, or covetous, or proud, or wordly minded. In one word, they are required to be like Christ, in disposition, character, and conduct.

The special law of Christ's kingdom is that its members should love one another, not only with the love of complacency and delight, but with brotherly love. A love which leads to the recognition of all Christians as brethren, belonging to the same family, entitled to the same privileges and blessings; and which pompts to and secures ministering to their necessities, so tht there be no lack. The law is laid down at length by the Apostle in 2 Corinthians viii. The law of the kingdom is, that every man should labour to the extent of his ability to supply his own wants and the wants of those dependent on him; for "if any would not work neither should he eat." (2 Thess. iii. 10); but all deficiency which labour cannot supply is to be supplied by those having the ability. (1 John iii. 17) In praying therefore that the kingdom of God may come, we pray, among other things, that all men may recognise Christ as their king, invested with divine majesty and authority, and that they should all be like Him in character and conduct.

The kingdom of Christ over all his people is exercised not only by his power in their protection and direction, but especially by his Word and Spirit, through which and by whom He reigns in and rules over them.

This kingdom of Christ is everlasting. That is, the relation which believers sustian to Christ on earth they will sustian to Him forever.

Christ's Visible Kingdom
As religion is essentially spiritual, an inward state, the kingdom of Christ as consisting of the truly regenerated, is not a visible body, except so far as goodness renders itself visible by its outward manifestations. Nevertheless as Christ has enjoined upon his people duties which render it necessary that they should organise themselves in an external society, it folows that there is and must be a visible kingdom of Christ in the world. Christians are required to associate for public worship, for the admission and exclusion of members, for teh administration of the sacraments, for the maintenance and propagation of the truth. They therefore form themselves into churches, an collectively constitute the visible kingdom of Christ on earth, consisting of all who profess the true religion, together with their children.

Nature of this Kingdom
First, it is spiritual. That is, it is not of this world. It is not analogous to the other kingdoms which existed, or do still exist among men. It has a different origin and a different end. Human kingdoms are organised among men, under the providential government of God, for the promotion of the temporal well-being of society. The kingdom of Christ was organised immediately by God, for the promotion of religious objects. It is spiritual, or not of this world, moreover, because it has no power over the lives, liberty, or property of its members; and because all secular matters lie beyond its jurisdiciton. Its prerogative is simply to declare the truth of God as revealed in his Word and to require that the truth should be professed and obeyed by all under its jurisdiciton. It can decide no question of politics or science which is not decided in the Bible. The kingdom of Christ, under the present dispensation, therefore, is not worldly even in the sense in which the ancient theocracy was of this world. The latter organised the Hebrews as a nation, and directed all their municipal and national, as well as their social and religious affairs. It, therefore, could not coexist intime and place with any other national organisation. The kingdom of Christ being designed to emabrace all other kingdoms, can exist under all forms of civil government without interfering with any. It was expecially in this view that Christ declared that his kingdom was not of this world. His immediate design was to vindicate his claim to be a king, from the charge that such claim was incompatible with teh authority of the civil magistrate or of the Roman emperor. He intended to say that his kingdom was of such a nature that it necessitated no collision with teh legitimate authority of any civil government. It belonged to a different sphere. It took cognizance of things which lie beyond the province of secular power; and it left untouched all that belongs peculiarly to civil rulers. Christ, therefore, could be recognised and obyed as king by those who continued to render unto Caesar the things which were Caesar's. Every form of claim of the Church, therefore, which is incompatible with the legitimate autority of the State, is inconsistent with the nature of Christ's kingdom as declared by Himself.

Secondly, this kingdom of Christ is catholic or universal. It embraces all who profess the true religion. It is confined to no one organisaton; but includes them al; because all are under the authority of Christ and subject to the laws which He has laid down in his Word. As all Christians are included in the kingdom of Christ, it is the duty of all to recognise each other as belonging to one great commonwealth, and as subjects of the same sovereign.

Thirdly, this form of Christ's kingdom is temporary. It is to be merged into a higher form when He shall come the second time without sin unto salvation. As an external organisation it is designed to anser certain ends, and will cease when those ends are accomplished.

fourthly, the kingdom of Christ is not a democracy, nor an aristocracy, but truly a kingdom of which Christ is absolute sovereign. This involves the denial,-
1. That the State has any authority to make laws to determine the faith, to regulate the worship, or to administer the discipline of the Church. It can neither apoint nor depose its officers.
2. It denies that any civil officer as such, or in virtue of his office, has any authority in the kingdom of Christ; much less can any such officer be the head of the Church.
3. It denies that Church power vests ultimately in the people, or in the clergy. All their power is purely ministerial. It is derived from Christ, and is exercised by others in his name, and according to the rules laid down in his Word. How far the Church has discretionary power in matters of detail is a disputed point. By some all such discretion is denied. They maintain that everything concerning the organisation, officers, and modes of action of the Church is as minutely laid down in the New Testament as the curtains, tassels, and implements of the tabernacle are detailed in the Old Testament. Others hold that while certain principles on this subject are laid down in Scripture, considerable latitude is allowed as to the means and manner in which the Church may carry them out in the exercise of her functions. This latter view has always been practically adopted. Even the Apostolical Churches were not all organised in the same way. The presence of an Apostle, or of a man clothed with apostolical authority, as in the case of James in Jerusalem, necessarily gave to a Church a form which other churches where no Apostle permanently resided could not have. Some had deaconesses, others had not. So all churches in every age and whereever they have existed, have felt at liberty to modify their organisation and modes of action so as to suit them to their peculiar circumstances. All such modifications are matters of indifference. They cannot be made to bind the conscience, nor can they be rendered conditions of Christians or ecclesiastical fellowship.

As Christ is the only head of the Church it follows that its allegiance is to Him, and that whenever those out of the Church undertake to regulate its affairs or to curtail its liberties, its members are bound to obey Him rather than men. They are bound by all legitimate means to resist such usurpations, and to stand fast in teh liberty wherewith Christ has made them free. They are under equal obligation to resist all undue assumption of authority by those within the Church, whether it be by the brotherhood or by individual officers, or by Church councils or courts. The allegiance of the people terminates with Christ. They are bound to obey others only so far as obedience to them is obedience to Him. In the early ages some endeavoured to impose on Christians the yoke of the Jewish law. This of course they were bound to resist. In the following centureis, and by degrees, the intolerable rituals, ceremonies, fasts, festivals, and priestly, prelatical, and papal assumptions, which oppress so large a part of teh Christian world, have been imposed upon the people in derogation to the authority of Christ as the sole head of the Church. Councils, provincial and ecumenical, have not only prescribed creeeds contrary to teh Scriptures, but also have made laws to bnd the conscience, and ordained observances which Christ never enjoined.

As Christ is the head of his earthly kingdom, so is He its only lawgiver. He prescribes,-

1. The erms of admission into his kingdom. These cannot be rightfully altered by any human authority. Men can neither add to them, nor detract from them. The rule which He has laid down on this subject is, that what He requires as a condition for admission into his kingdom of heaven, is to be required as a condition of admission to his kingdom on earth. Nothing more and nothing less is to be demanded. We are to receive all those who Christ receives. No degree of knowledge, no confession, beyond that which is necessary to salvation, can be demanded as a condition of our recognising any one as a Christian brother and treating im as such. Philip baptised the Eunuch on the confession "I believe taht Jesus Christis the Son of God." (Acts viii. 37.) "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.(Rom xiv. 1) "Who are thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth" (v.4) "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ, is born of God." (1 John v.1) For men to reject fromtheir fellowship those whom God has received into his, is an intolerable assumption. All those terms of Church communion which have been set up beyond the credible profession of faith in Christ are usurpations of an authority which belongs to Him alone.

2. A second law of the visible kingdom of our Lord is that heretics and those guilty of scandalous offences should be excommunicated: "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition reject." (Titus iii. 10) "I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, which such an one no not to eat" (1 Cor v. 11.) Our Lord teaches that such an offender when he refuses to hear "the Church" is to be regarded as a "heathen man and a publican." (Matt xviii. 17)

3. Christ has ordained that the power of exercising discipline and the other prerogatives of the Church should be in the hands of officers, having certain gifts and qualifications and duly appointed.

4. That the right to judge of the qualifications of such officers is vested in, or rather belongs to those who by the Holy Ghost have themselves been called to be office bearers.

5. That such officers are not lords over God's heritage, but servants. Their authority is restricted to prescribed limits, and the people have a right to substantive part in the government of the Church through their representatives.

6. Every member of Christ's kingdom is bound to obey his brethren in the Lord. This obligation does not rest on consent or mutual covenant, but on the fact that they are brethren, the temples and organs of the Holy Spirit. It is, therefore, not limited to those brethren with whom the individual chooses to associate himself. It hence follows that in the normal condition of Christ's kingdom, each part would be subject to the whole, and the whole would be one body in the Lord.

4. The Kingdom of Glory
The Scriptures teach that when Christ shall come again, He will gather his people into the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. Concerning that kingdom it is taught,-
1. That it shall consist of the redeemed. None but the regenerate or a converted can enter that kingdom. The tares are to be separated from the wheat. The evil, we are told (Gal v. 21) "shall not inherit the kindgom of God." Nothing that defiles or is untrue can enter there.
2. Those counted worthy of that kingdom shall not only be elevated to the perfection of their nature, but shall also be exalted to great dignity, power, and glory. They shall be kings and priests unto God. They are to sit on thrones. They are to judge angels. They are to reign with Christ, sharing his dominion and glory.
3. The kingdom is to be everalsting.
4. The bodies of the saints, now natural, must be rendered spiritual. This mortal must put on immortality, and this corruptible must put on incorruption; for "flesh and blood (the body as now organised) cannot inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor. xv. 50)
5. The seat of this kingdom is not clearly revealed. Some suppose that it is to be on this earth regenerated and fitted for this new order of things. Others understand the Scriptures to teach that heaven as indicating an entirely different locality, is to be the final home of the redeemed.
6. Diversity of opinion exists as to the time when this kingdom shall be inaugurated. Chiliasts have commonly held that Christ is to come a thousand years ( or a protracted period) before the general resurrection and final judgment, and reign visibly on earth, and that this is the kingdom to which the prophecies and promises of Scripture especially refer. The doctrine of necessity greatly modifies the view taken of the nature of this kingdom. It must be an earthly kingdom, as distinguished from that which is spiritual and heavenly. It must be a kingdom which flesh and blood can inherit. The common doctrine of the Church on the subject is that the general resurrection, the final judgment, the end of the world,and the inauguration of Christ's kingdom of glory are synchronous events.




ENDNOTE
AV - kingdom (of God) 71, kingdom (of heaven) 32, kingdom (general or evil) 20, (Thy or Thine) kingdom 6, His kingdom 6, the kingdom 5, (My) kingdom 4, misc 18; 162

GK - 993 {basileiva}

1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
1a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom
1b) of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah
1c) of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians in the Messiah’s kingdom
2) a kingdom, the territory subject to the rule of a king
3) used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah




*************************
If I have to be like him who is going to be like me?
James 1:25 The Perfect Law of Liberty

Edited by - Uncle Buck on 05 Jul 2005 18:46:56
Go to Top of Page

mikedag
Junior Member

uSA
21 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2006 :  17:47:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LeeI don't receive my freedom from the hacks in office,therefore I am under no obligation to the government to perform. I have no liability with government

The last paragraph from the linked (http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg45-97.htm) article by John MacArthur reads:

"2. Suppose the government you lived under suddenly denied you all the social and political freedoms you now enjoy. How would you respond? Look up the following verses: Romans 13:1; 1 Timothy 2:1-3; Titus 3:1-2; 1 Peter 2:12-17. Based on the instruction of Scripture, how should your response to the government that gives you freedom differ from the one that denies you freedom? Please be obedient to God's Word by being obedient to your government."

I didn't read all the article. But I did read enough to question the agenda of the writer.

First of all, John errs in assuming our freedoms come from government instead of our Creator. This is the typical stand of the extreme left wing of politics.

(Acts 5:29 KJV) Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I agree that we should obey our government in all things that are in line with obeying God. But to imply that our freedoms come from our government is close to having another god before the True God or setting up government as an object of idol worship.

Bro Lee

Go to Top of Page

Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2006 :  07:28:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and salutations, mikedag, and welcome aboard!

Peace be unto the house.

You posted: I didn't read all the article. But I did read enough to question the agenda of the writer.

We respond: Agreed, and in our humble opinion, his or her agenda is not good.

Posted: First of all, John errs in assuming our freedoms come from government instead of our Creator. This is the typical stand of the extreme left wing of politics.

We respond: We totally agree with that first sentence, but perceive that this is the typical stand of all governments created and ordained by the creature, man, since their desire it to be call "benefactor".

Posted: Acts 5:29 KJV) Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
I agree that we should obey our government in all things that are in line with obeying God. But to imply that our freedoms come from our government is close to having another god before the True God or setting up government as an object of idol worship.

We repond: Please see our above post: Posted - Jun 24 2005 : 08:19:55 AM for the response to this.

Again, welcome aboard.

"Knowledge makes a man unfit to be a slave." – Frederick Douglass, born Frederick Augustus Washington Bailey, 1817-95; U.S Black leader, journalist, & statesman

May the Living One bless all His children with ears that understand, eyes that percieve and contrite and humble hearts. amein


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional USA or STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
An act done by me against my will is not my act.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 26 Jul 2006 07:45:33
Go to Top of Page

Caleb
Advanced Member

Philippines
209 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2011 :  23:56:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Up until today, I signed off all my posts with the following verse of Scripture:

"Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end"
Isaiah 9:7

My question is: Did Isaiah get it wrong?

If not, then where is this ever-increasing Kingdom that was "at hand" some 2000 years ago? I don't hear anyone describing it as here and now, and certainly not increasing. Rather, it is "when we get to Heaven", or "When Jesus returns".

Well, I have walked away from all the churches that teach such contradictions of Scripture, and I believe I can show you exactly where it is and what it looks like. But before I do that, I would like to know how others answer this puzzle, and indeed, if anyone has an answer that is not "pie-in-the-sky in the sweet by-and-by".

Honi soit qui mal y pense
Go to Top of Page

Jay Scott
Advanced Member

uSA
181 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2011 :  00:03:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I cringe when people say it, BUUUT, is it for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. What I mean by that, is it possible for one to see a garden overflowing with juicy, ripe watermelon and think it's a patch of thistles and thorns?

Jay Scott.
Go to Top of Page

Caleb
Advanced Member

Philippines
209 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2011 :  00:30:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Scott

I cringe when people say it, BUUUT, is it for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. What I mean by that, is it possible for one to see a garden overflowing with juicy, ripe watermelon and think it's a patch of thistles and thorns?



Yes Jay, so how about lifting enough of those big leaves to reveal at least one juicy watermelon for those whose eyes and ears are opening but still need some assistance to discern what is there in front of them?

It is indeed hiding in plain sight. There is not a single church that can see it. Until late last year, I could not see it, although I was searching for it diligently. Now that I do see it, I understand why so few are able to see it. "Straight is the gate and narrow the way ..." Narrower than any would imagine.

Honi soit qui mal y pense
Go to Top of Page

Jay Scott
Advanced Member

uSA
181 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2011 :  08:12:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Are we not the living watermelon? Can I lift the veil another is clenching firmly over his eyes? Must he let go of it for it to fall away?

Jay Scott.
Go to Top of Page

Caleb
Advanced Member

Philippines
209 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2011 :  19:21:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Jay,

If we are the watermelons, then what is it about us specifically that makes us part of this Kingdom? How do we differ from others in a demonstrable way?

I have a very clear answer to this, and it is earth-shaking. It does indeed turn the world upside down. It separates the sheep from the goats in a manner that is undeniable, and once understood, it explains why the world is in the state it is in and why Christianity has proven powerless to make a difference.

Honi soit qui mal y pense
Go to Top of Page

Uncle Buck
Advanced Member

Australia
134 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2011 :  20:00:07  Show Profile  Visit Uncle Buck's Homepage  Reply with Quote
"Let he who thinks ill there be shamed."
2 Thes 2v12 ....And all those who believed not the truth, but chose evil, will be judged.


*************************
If I have to be like him who is going to be like me?
James 1:25 The Perfect Law of Liberty
Maxim: A man warring for Yahuwah should not be associated with secular business.
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
ECCLESIASTIC COMMONWEALTH COMMUNITY © MMXVIII Ecclesiastic Commonwealth Community Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.2 seconds. Snitz Forums 2000