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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2004 :  20:38:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings Brother Robert, Sister Kathleen and 'lil Bro Kevin,

Yes, I do know you all love me dearly and, as always, I do hope that you all know I feel the same. For those who are reading this we most always start our discussions off on this note so when we get 'the iorn sharpening iorn' there is no offense.... with that publicly established...

Here is my position the best I can figure.. Let me see if I can clearly make my points:

TITLE not NAME:

I can accept your idea of a TITLE instead of NAME but, in essence, does it not amount to the same thing? Here are four guys who, upon their 'capture', refuse to eat the King's food because it is against Torah. They are given TITLES upon entering the BABYL KINGDOM and, to make a long story short, excell to the highest positions. My biggest problem is why there is no rejection of the TITLE in light of their steadfastness in holding to the Kashrut Laws of Torah, IF accepting a GOVT TITLE in their KINGDOM is a breach of Torah. Your point about manditory subjection to slavery in BABYL by YHWH is well taken and I will address this in the next paragraph.

Manditory Slavery

It is true that YHWH demanded that the House of David and it's citizens were to go into BABYL. However, if one reads Deut 28 and Lev 26 which are the performance parts of Torah between YHWH and his People, it is clear that the punishment is consistantly CAPTIVITY. Not just Egypt. Not just Babyl. Check out Daniel and you will see that there is actually four exiles prophecied under four evil kingdoms. BABYLON, PERSIA, GREECE, and what is known as the fourth kingdom exile, ROME. I think we all can agree that ROME is still up and running. We can just take a look out the window or run to the grocery story and pay the TAX on our basic needs to feel the reality of this. All of this fits in perfectly with what was promised by YHWH as punishment. But we all know He is doing this for a reason. When this current fourth kingdom exile is over Then we will see all of the Messianic prophecies come to pass. We will see everybody from the least to the greatest knowing YHWH, we will see the weapons turned to plowshares, we will see Torah flow forth from Zion again and all will pay tribute to the Israelite World Order. There will be no guess work involved when this comes to pass. We will literally see the prophecies fullfilled. Until then... we get what we see. TAX on everything we buy from a CORP, USURY FRNS, etc. The reason why I see Daniel's example and his exhaltation of Righteousness as an archetype of what to do in the worst of times in Ezek 14 is because he was able to honor YHWH even in CAPTIVITY. Keep in mind, Daniel is not the only one listed as an archetype when the great thrasing from YHWH comes. As Robert-James said, YHWH works in threes. I agree. In Ezek 14 there are three paths as examples... Noah, Job as well as Daniel. I believe Daniel is the path of obedience in BONDAGE. The path of Noah may very well be the one that you, Brother Robert, Robert-James and so many others are on... or could it be Job?.. anyway.. the point I am trying to make is that Daniel, who accepted both TITLE and POSITION from BABYL, is listed in this Ezek 14 group of archetypes of Righteousness. BTW, I would be posting all of the verses to back up these statments except I have my laptop which has my quick verse in the repair shop.

YHWH did not suspend the 1st command during exile

While I agree that it was YHWH's manditory plan for the BABYL exile, I cannot imagine that He would suspend the 1st commandment to accomidate 'serving two masters' during the SLAVERY. One of the main features of the book of Daniel is that he was able to stay true to YHWH, even in BONDAGE. This would be absolutely impossible if the
first commandment was a political one. Especially with YHWH being the complete script author, knowing that EXILE was to be a big part of the plan. I think the book of Daniel as well as other examples of Righteous Israelites shows this clearly. Can YHWH make an impossibility in his own Law? It seems that if the first commandment was one of a political nature then either a) this Law must have been suspended or b) Daniel and his brethren, along with anyone else during the any of the exiles, would be guilty of breaking the big #1.
I can't make that add up given the main features of the Daniel story.
I believe that YHWH's Torah was written in such a way that it can be followed as Free or SLAVE.. just the same as one can enter into the Echad body of Christ.

So, in closing, I believe that YHWH has his people in many positions
in the EXILE. TAG or no TAG, SLAVE or Free. Each scripted for a specific purpose because YHWH sets Kings as well as KINGS, creates the good and the evil, even puts lies in the prophets mouths.... even gave "Laws by which ye could not Live"... As crazy as that sounds.. that's what the Book says... and when you think about it, it does make sense: YHWH is the only Sovereign.

Peace to All,
Steven John Webb

Edited by - BatKol on 14 Feb 2004 20:48:52
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2004 :  21:18:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But now, after that ye have known Yahweh, or rather are known of Yahweh, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?





fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2004 :  22:05:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And Yahweh said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this one to reign over us.


REIGN, v.i. rane. [L. regno, a derivative of rego, regnum.] 1. To possess or exercise sovereign power or authority; to rule; to exercise government, as a king...

Here we are, 2000 years later, and the same options are before us once again, the time has been fulfilled, the penalty for treason has been paid. Shall we reject Him once more, or should we turn back to the King de jure and His Perfect Law of liberty? The choice is ours; the choice is yours, but as for me and my house, we shall serve Yahweh!

No King but Yahweh, no tribute but that of the Temple, no friend but the Zealots

It is done.






fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2004 :  22:09:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bro Robert said: Our first question to you is, would you believe us if we told the answers to your questions,

BatKol: Yes, but you never seem to be able to address my individual statements point blank


Bro Robert:if we were able to leap the stumbling blocks you throw in front of those who go out and "preach the Kingdom of Yahweh"?

BatKol: You don't leap. You evade. These points I bring up should be simple for one who is fully living in the Kingdom. I gave you the benefit of the doubt on TITLE, and you did not leap over it.. you avoided it.

Bro Robert: We feel that you would not, but rather you would grasp for yet another stumbling block as fast as you could. Correct us if we are wrong here as we do not wish to bear false witness.

BatKol: Consider yourSelf corrected


As for you claims in the post above:

Desire bondage? Did Yoseph desire bondage? Did Daniel desire bondage?
We are all in this collectively....
When you go pay the TAX when you buy food, when you go pay the TAX when you buy gas, is this your desire? You do pay these TAXES, do you not??? If so you are no more Free than me.

Are you caring/Standing on Land and claiming your inheritance promised to you in the Kingdom wherein you grow your own food? NO. You have an agreement living in someone elses' place, just as I do. You get up and go to work and get FRNS to put INGLES food on the table just as I do.

Are you not getting other's to CONTRACT with the BEAST to 'touch that which you consider unclean' for you so you can enjoy THINGS that require manditory SIGNATURES and the very 'MARKS' you claim are a 'SIN'? Do you not use another to CONTRACT a PHONE for you? Do you not have someone CONTRACTING an ISP INTERNET agreement for you? This is Kingdom living, in your opinion, making deals wherein you cause other's to use their MARKS?? You claim that you are not in BONDAGE but you seem to enjoy things that only those in BONDAGE can get.... Why is this so? Please tell us why you would cause another to sin like this... or more importantly.... explain why it is not a traverse to use other's for their MARKS.. This is key.. And lastly... give me a rebutal on my post!

Sent in Love,
Steve


These are circumstances of the fourth kingdom bondage.. like it or not.

Edited by - BatKol on 14 Feb 2004 23:24:43
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2004 :  22:13:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Brother Robert said:

No King but Yahweh, no tribute but that of the Temple, no friend but the Zealots

Steve asks: Is this true, that you pay no TRIBUTE on the gas you BUY, or the FOOD you buy at the CORP?? Tell us how you get these CORPS to go along with your above quote... or even better.. PLEASE tell this list that you or your Helpmeet (who represents you and is one flesh with you) do not pay these FOOD and GAS TAXES in light of the above statement...

Edited by - BatKol on 14 Feb 2004 22:38:08
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Servant of All
Regular Member

Israel
41 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2004 :  02:07:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
oneisraelite,

Greetings in the name of Yahshua the Christ. I appreciate the honesty in your most recent response. Much to chew upon. May Yahweh, the Source of all Wisdom, guide us all into all Truth.

I, too, must confess that I am compelled against my better judgment and willingness to pay tax upon the gasoline that moves my conveyance along the public ways in the course of obedience to the command of my King. I must simply accept this as a cost of service and proceed toward the reconciliation of the nations Yahweh has called me, and many others, to. If this is truly unlawful scripturally, I too beg forgiveness and to be enlightened. Please know, though, that all offered enlightenment, no matter how logical it may seem according to wisdom of the flesh, will be humbly exposed to the Light of the Spirit of the Living God and the context of His complete Word before implimentation. That said, please offer your best 'psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs...exhortation...admonition...encouragement' for the benefit of all of us as fellow members of this ecclesia. My heart and ears remain open.

May God Almighty bless you richly as you trust and obey Him more today!

In His service,

Philip the least
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2004 :  10:01:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, brother Steven and all the brothers and sisters of this ecclesiastical forum:

Greetings


Peace be unto the house.
Firstly, let us humbly apologize for any of our conversation that has not been edifying to the Body of Anointed. (We fear that some of this should have taken place “out behind the barn”, as the saying goes, and not in a [public] forum.)

We the Accused, stand naked before this ecclesia.


Yes, I apoligize as well. It seems there was a mis-communication
and mis-understanding.. Now that Brother Robert and I have worked this out.. let's proceed.

brother Steven accuses us of partaking of “the king’s dainties”. Allow us to expound on these so-called “benefits” we are accused of taking from caesar: We trade “work for shelter” – [this very humble shelter came with electricity], a "covering", we might add, that was built with our King’s materials. We now, for the first time in about two years, have use of a phone, again, built with our King’s materials.

Yes, it is true that all things are created by YHWH.


This phone service was provided by one of “caesar’s own” who, for his own benefit, wanted us to have it. He knows Whom we serve since we have witnessed to him on more than one occasion, but has chosen to place this service here regardless and has graciously allowed us the [personal] use of the same.


We now have “internet service”, again for the first time in nearly two years, thanks to a brother whom many of you presumably know.
brother Robert: if we have inadvertently caused you to sin in this matter, as our brother accuses us of doing, we humbly apologize to you, and are more than willing to give it up if that is Yahweh’s will, but in any event, we thank your for your generosity and kindness.


This is the crux. Respectfully, as I understand it one cannot get INTERNET SERVICE with out some type of "MARK" as you call it or a CONTRACT which I know you cannot sign. If INTERNET requires all of these things, is it Lawful to have SOMEBODY make the CONTRACT?
This is a most important question. One that I would like to see carried out in-depth.


brother Steven, whom we also thank in front of these witnesses for the generosity and kindness he too has shown us, accuses us of aiding and abetting the enemy of Yahweh and His government by paying gasoline tax, [brother Steven there is no tax on food in this place] and other hidden taxes, etc.

Dear Robert, if you go to INGLES or any CORP to buy any food there is a TAX. Now, if I wrongly accuse you of buying food, I apologize. INGLES TAXES everything from a pack of gum to diapers to a steak to
soap. If you have found a Way to get these things without going to the CORP, then I beg your forgiveness. If you still do, then you are just like most all I know. We work for FRNS because they get us fed.
When we choose to work for FRNS to buy these things at the CORP, then we must PAY the TRIBUTE as well as pony up the FRNS... SO far as I can tell, INGLES only accepts FRNS... if you have found a better Way,
and have by-passed INGLES, Please share it.

As we have previously stated, we do not feel that these are treasonous acts against our King, however, “His Will be done”, if our King “feels” otherwise, we throw ourselves on the Mercy of His Court.

I am just trying to understand all of this in the context of your statement, "no TRIBUTE but unto the Temple". TAX is TAX. TRIBUTE is TAX... plain and simple.

Our brother further accuses us of not standing on land and being self-sufficient; to this charge we plead, Guilty.

I bet you will be the first Ones out there once the weapons get turned to plowshares! Until then, I don't 'blame' you all one bit.
I am just trying to understand all of this in the context of the claim that the Kingdom is here and the inheritance is there just waiting. From my reading of the Scriptures, everybody from the least to the greatest will know YHWH and there will be no need to worry about the BEAST coming and removing one from the Land.


We plead guilty since we have a pretty good understanding of what it takes to “occupy”, since we have previously done this in another place for about a year. We further plead guilty to this charge because we are told to “fear not little flock for it is the Father’s good pleasure to give you the Kingdom” and are instructed to “be bold”.

Hang in there until the Messianic prophecies are fullfilled! Until then, it's FRNS, TAXES, etc...


I am not a brave man: My biggest fear is that we could not be self-sufficient by my efforts alone.

You echo the concerns of many. Myself included. This is noe of the biggest complaints concerning the "BONDAGE blues"... That is why I just admit, right up front, that I willfully engage in FRNS, INTERNET, etc.

However, we will be judged by no man in this matter: if in fact we are guilty, we again throw ourselves at the mercy of Yahweh, for He is our Judge, He is our Lawgiver and He is our King.

Any sincere Man can make this same plea concerning FRNS, or anyTHING we use from the SYSTEM... Daniel and many others in Scripture have shown that YHWH and Torah (at least personal Torah)can be followed in BONDAGE, while at the same time having YHWH as ultimate King and Lawgiver.


As this noble ecclesia and Yahweh is our witness, our brother further accuses us of being “evasive” to his line of questioning; to this charge we plead Not Guilty.

Then answer this please: If the 1st Commandment's proper inteperatation is as you say it is, one of a political nature, Did YHWH suspend the 1st Commandment when Daniel accepted the TITLE given to him? When Daniel continued to serve the KING after the Lion's den?
I think the clear pattern shown in Scripture is that YHWH's Law can be followed in BONDAGE and in Freedom.. SLAVE or Free. CITIZEN or citizen.. This item alone deserves it's own thread.

We have endeavoured to answer your questions to the best of our ability, brother Steven, and have not tried to be evasive to the best of our knowledge.

From what I can tell you did not directly answer the Daniel issue and his being considered an Archetype of Righteousness in times even worse than these (Ezek 14:14). Your quote in Samuel did not address this.

We further put it to this council that we “feel” brother Steven would not be satisfied with any answer we might give, as we perceive that his heart’s desire is to stay in Babylon and partake of the king’s dainties.

That is not true at all. If you are willing to take this topic of Daniel down to it's root and examine the features of the story, I will be more than happy to give credit where credit is due. I am not the only one who is of the opinion that you have not addressed the items outlined in my post concerning Daniel. As for my heart's desire, it would be what all here want: To see the weapons turned to plowshares, etc. You, me, and most everybody I know partakes in CORP CONSUMER PRODUCTS and pays the TRIBUTE when we do. Word games and justfications aside... TRIBUTE is TRIBUTE, FRNS are FRNS, CONTRACTS are CONTRACTS... no matter who is SURETY.. would not a great witness be to those who would do the CONTRACTING, to see us refuse, saying, "I refuse to cause you, or except your offer to enter into CONTRACT for me because it takes MARKS to do these things"?... Now that would be a witness that really sticks... I have not met anybody, mySelf included who is willing to do this... to me all of this is just black and white.. and rationalizations inbetween...



We would suggest to our dear brother, that we do not have all the answers and have never said we did, though we strive toward this goal, for it is written: “It is…the honour of kings to search out a matter” [Yahweh’s Will].

That is all we are trying to do is search the matter out. I can show you where we are being punished with the BONDAGE that makes all of the above TAXES, RENT, BILLS a reality.

We further suggest that there are those who “claim” that the Book of Dani’el has been added to the Word of Yahweh, if this is truth [and we have no knowledge whether this be the case or not], then our arguments concerning Dani’el would be a waste of time, would it not?

I can show you point blank contradictions, errors and impossibilities through out the whole book if we want to go down that road.... Maxim: False in part, false in whole. If this is true, what is my culpability then, if I do not share your view of what the Scriptures say??

We further suggest that if you wish deeper insight into the Book of Dani’el, you find someone more learned that ourselves to debate this issue with, perhaps your “friends” in Paltalk, and ask your forgiveness in not being able to answer your questions better, if you are verily seeking Truth.

We need not be experts. Just applying the same common sense we use in everyday can be used to address the items I bring up about the book of Daniel. That is just one facet of my searching. We have not addressed that fact that Paul wrote Romans 13 during a corrupt Roman GOVT, and was a CITIZEN of this same corrupt ROMAN GOVT. THis is very important to keep in mind when reading Romans 13 or any og the other verses that suggest obeidence to those who YHWH has set over us in BONDAGE. Again, Daniel is an archetype per Ezek 14. Daniel rebelled when asked to bow down to a strange "Diety". The book is very clear. I think that is the Spirit Paul and Peter talk about when addressing the GOVT of their time..


What we do know is this: Whether we are able to hold up under your scrutiny or not, we are citizens in the Kingdom of Yahweh, fellowcitizens with the True Chosen Ones in the commonwealth of Yisra’el, and no man can take that away from us

I confirm that you are who you say you are in this respect. I would never want to take that away from you. I am just pointing out that we are in BONDAGE because we can't get around the TRIBUTE, FRNS, etc. as mentioned by both of us above!

An act against our will, is not our act.

This same reasoning can be used when one agrees quickly upon getting a LICENSE. Black or white.

Only Yahweh has the prerogative to excommunicate us from His Jurisdiction, no one else!! End of story!

Agree.

We have been instructed to “seek ye first the Kingdom”, which we have done and do on a continual basis [diligently], we are commanded to go out two by two and preach the Kingdom of Yahweh, which we do almost, if not, daily, we are further told by our Anointed Counsellor, “if thou wilt enter into life, keep the Commandments”, His “perfect Law of libertie”, and this we do with all our heart and soul, as we perceive them, though we fail miserably on a daily basis we are certain, and beg His merciful forgiveness. If we are wrong in our discerning of any of these Commandments we are absolutely, positively certain that He will bring it to Light for us before the Hammer falls.

I am quite certain that same salvation and forgiveness is available
for all who seek the answers to these same questions. In my seeking, I need to know how these items are dealt with when looking at the claims of certain ones on this thread that one cannot be both a CITIZEN along with being a member of the Body of Christ. You are preaching your versiono f the Gospel, I am sincerely asking questions in light of some serious parts of Scripture that show the Law can be followed SLAVE or Free...

We are not put here to do our will, or the will of brother Steven, we are not even put here to do the will of this noble ecclesia…WE ARE PUT HERE TO DO THE WILL OF YAHWEH and we are doing that to the best of our ability [we fervently hope] at this time, just as you are not put here to do my will.

You have no choice either way. YHWH is the only Doer. We can choose good or evil and even that is effected by how YHWH puts his 'thumb on your necks' leaving us with the illusion that we actually had a choice in the matter.


For anyone to tell us that The Book is not about [politics] a government, a government of Yahweh, by Yahweh and for His Citizens [People], it is our humble “opinion” that, that one should go back and read the Book again!!

There is a political agenda in the book , no doubt, but I do not see everyone from the least to the greatest knowing YHWH, I do not see a re-established Throne of David (Sorry England ain't it), I do not see weapons turned to plowshares. I don't see One True Language restored.
This is not a matter of Faith, it is a matter of looking outside the window as seeing it. YHWH makes some pretty clear statements about what to look for when this Israelite Word Order is established... and it ain't here yet.


Hail Yahweh [Yahu Shua], King of kings and Lord of lords. This is not a “religious statement” but rather “a call to the Head of our Government”. Beyond this we stand mute in this matter.

Peace to you all. I am glad we can discuss these topics in the Sprit of kindness. I promise to, from here on out, adhere to this statement.


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2004 :  15:55:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Greetings in the name of the King, brother Steven:
Peace be unto the house.


Peace be to you all as well.

Dear brother, we do not view our walk as “perfected”; we know it is not.

So you are not one of those suffering from the delusion and boasting that, "my walk is unadultrated"... Just so it is stated between us, I know full well that mine is not perfected either.

We don’t need people like you pointing out every little flaw for us, we are not as ignorant as you seem to believe we are.

I was just taken by your statement, "No TRIBUTE except unto the Temple" and was very curious how you got around the CONSUMER TAXES.
You cleared this up in your last post. Thanks.

Why do ye kick against the pricks?

Now here's where we get into the whole, "my understanding is correct and yours is not"... Could not this Paul quote be pointed back around at yourself, if my position is correct? That is what I am trying to establish... in light of the items I present, we need to go deeply into them and get to the root. If you are willing to do this, we can get answers. These points concerning Daniel and Paul's CITIZENSHIP when he wrote Romans 13 deserve and indepth look at each point, especially the issue of Daniel since he is listed as an archetype of Righteouness in Ezek 14. I see a direct link that has not been discussed to deeply.... we keep getting sidetracked.. I would very much like to dive deeply into this..

But here is an analogy for you: Should one not play chess if he is not the world champion?

It is written if Elohim is in your heart then do all that is in your heart.

We [Kathleen: and I and many others] see the [rational] Kingdome of Yahweh with such clarity, few can even imagine.

Another topic surely. From my reading there is a literal re-establishment of the Throne of David Kingdom, and a Kingdom that Yahushua spoke of that is "Neither here nor there".. Paul says SLAVE or Free can become part of this Kingdom.. As for the other.. the weapons have not been turned to plowshares, and the Ezekiel prophecy of the rebuilt Temple has not yet happened..

It is a place where people show respect for themselves and each other. If it takes something catastrophic like the flood of Noah's day to bring it about, then let the strong right arm of Yahweh bring it forth.

Here again, until we are restored to One True Lauguage, the best we can hope for is to study these issues out and get the insight we desire.. BTW, in Ezek 14 Noah is listed as an Archetype of Righteousness as well.. this is why I am seriously seeing the three
archetypes of righteousness as three different walks.. Perhaps both of our views (and even one more not yet discussed) can be accomidated in Ezek 14.. We will never know unless we dig in and see.

We see Heylel's mirror image [irrational] kingdom nearly as clearly as we see Yahweh's and are doing our uttermost to sever ourselves from it.

I see this whole realm of earth and bodily enthropy as the mirror image, the FICTION. And, like you, I have many verses to back up my position... I, too, am doing the uttermost to persue my Realization
to sever my identification from this realm of the flesh that cannot please YHWH and cannot inherit the Kingdom... Again, since the Messianic prophecies have not been fullfilled, I Am looking to the Spiritual Kingdom where there is neither male nor female, beginning or end.

However, it is a spider web of deceit so pervasive that it is all but impossible to avoid every single nuance of it, it is a virtual minefield, and we know it.

Yes, FRNS and all of the trappings are tough nuts.. Just what I would expect from YHWH via Duet 28 and Lev 26...

And as all should know, when you walk through a minefield, you should follow someone who has made it successfully through that minefield...step for step...even wearing his shoes if necessary.

Wisdom

To give up and join the “bullies in the schoolyard” is an “irrational solution”, it is of an irrational spirit, and we know who “he” is. [Is there anyone left who does not know that the Beast system we are currently under is totally corrupt and immoral?]

The best it seems I have seen anyone do thus far is avoid the bully. No one is going to physically go hand to hand with the bully, so we just try to live out of sight while using the bully's FRNs, UTILITIES, etc. Survival.. Occupy until "I" return can be interperated many different ways.

One thus becomes as evil as they and we are instructed by The Book of the Law not to follow a multitude to do evil!

This is why I question the use of other's standing in for BEAST CONTRACTS that one would not take care of themselves.. Also, don't you think we are following a multitude to do evil concerning our use of FRNS? If we really hated them, nothing is stopping us from Righteous Trade.. I am just trying to reconsile the line where one GOVT ITEM is clean and others are not...

Will we win? Who knows but Yahweh Himself…but we can assure you of this; if we sit back and do nothing they win by default.


We perceive that Yahweh is looking for a few Moshehs who are willing to leave the “lap of luxury”, a few Calebs that will come back with a good report, a few Gideons who are willing to hide their “wheat” from the Midianites, a few Dani’els that will draw a line in the sand and say; “NO MORE!!” And willing to back it up by being so steadfast in their belief that they will allow themselves to be thrown to the lions if necessary…these are the Zealots of Yahweh!!!

What I find fitting about your statement is that the Zealots, from my studies, forced Ceasar to re-mint ROMES gold coins because they refused to use Gold that had ceasar's face on it. ROME caved in and re-issued coins that had Palm brances on them.. That, aside from direct guerilla warfare, is what strikes me about the Zealots. I find no one doing either today. I can't imagine a Zealot paying TRIBUTE on CONSUMER ITEMS like we all do today.


He is looking for a few Yahushuas, a few Children, who are willing to put their life on the line when all the benefits of Heylel’s kingdom are put before them as they are starving to death.

With this attitude you outline above I could see POWER CONTRACTS being refused, FRNS being shunned, CHEMICALLY ALTERED CORP FOOD being refused

His ad, His call, is similar to that of the U.S. Marines: “Yahweh is looking for a few good men!!” Are you one of them? If not, we give you a quote from a well-known patriot of American history:
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams


Yes, issue Righteous trading instead of bending to the CORPS and CONSUMER TRIBUTE so we can be fed! Why don't we do this? Because it is easier to work for FRNS and PURCHASE day to day items..

We don’t ask you to join us; He is only looking for those who will lap up the water [of Truth] like thirsty dogs!

So then YHWH, in your opinion, is only looking for those who will lap
your version of the Truth? This is what I am trying to establish, if your version of the Truth is the correct one. I see a couple of serious items that need to be addressed before I would be willing to consider that your version of the Gospel is the correct one, considering all that I have seen first hand with my own eyes... Would you want anything less from me? What kind of respect would you give me if I just agreed with your position without "proving all things and holding fast to that which is good"? I did that with the "sixth day/eight day man" false dogma and, with the help of your essay I was able to learn the error of that. Now, when putting the same attention to this issue, I want the same closure..

Am I one of them? I can only answer that I pray that He gives me the strength and courage to become one of them, if I am not.

When YHWH Elohim is in your heart then do all that is in your heart.

We only ask that you not undermine and bash every effort we make toward re-establishing Yahweh’s Kingdome here on earth, we only ask that ye not hinder those that are pressing in.

If you take serious examination of your doctrine as undermining and bashing then how can I prove it to be True? If my questioning your position is, "hindering those that are pressing in" then maybe we should publicly do a serious look at the items I outlined in the book of Daniel.. Thus far you have not brought forth anything that proves my position false.. Let's 'de-personalize' this and dig into Daniel and Paul's CITIZENSHIP during corrupt ROME and see if we can get a clear picture. This would be a benefit for all if it's only Truth we seek and not 'someone's opinion'. To do this we have some serious items to address which have not been gone into.

Those who are not against us are for us. And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me

Assuming that your position is the correct undestanding. Help me on this like you did on the sixth day/eigth day man study. This Daniel and Paul thing is a serious item to ponder if we are going to let scripture define scripture.

If you don’t believe in the Kingdome of Yahweh here on earth that is fine, the overwhelmingly vast majority of people on “this rock” do not, they still think the earth is flat; you have much company in that belief.

I do not see the things that YHWH says will happen when the Kingdom is here. Plain and simple. No weapons to plowshares yet, no Israelite World Order yet. No Tribute being imposed on the Nations by the re-instituted Throne of David yet. The two houses have not been joined back together... This is the Kingdom spoke of clearly in the Tanakh. If it is an earthly Kingdom, there's what to look for. Yahushua spoke of a Kingdom not of this world, else his servants would fight (i.e.- to bring about this earthy Kingdom spoken of in the Tanakh).

But we who have been Called Out, do believe in Yahweh's Jurisdiciton, we believe in it as much or more than that “overwhelmingly vast majority” believe in their kingdom.

Where is the governing body as outlined in the Torah set up in your version of the Kingdom? There is no council of elders to bring matters to, nobody enforcing Torah.. why? because the messianic prophecies listed above have not yet been fullfilled.


They cheat each other, they cheat their own king at every turn, they beg their king to covet and steal from their own brothers and sisters so that their life in this living hell might be easier. What a system!!!

Exactly. This system you outline above is what Daniel shows as the fouth kingdom, the ROMAN KINGDOM which is still up and running.
This Kingdom will be destroyed and the House of David will be re-established, complete with Temple and governing body enforcing Torah... so the book says.. This has not yet come to pass.


They must beg their master to even be able to take their modern mode of transportation to the market for food, they must beg him if they want to add a room to “their” home, they must take his mark and swear allegiance to him to even work for their sustenance and you insinutate that we should "come back in, the water’s fine".

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never said such a thing, I only asked you to back up the Gospel you are preaching in light of the items I presented to you. There are many watching this list that would like to see this happen. I have not found where you have done this yet and I would very much like to do this.

It is not fine, it is a boiling cauldron and we can see it fermenting with all the tortured souls that have been sacrificed to it over the centuries. No thanks…we want no part of it, and as soon as we can figure out how to completely and wholly separate ourselves from it, Yahweh willing, we shall do so, or die trying!!!

I bid you success in your efforts.

You say we of the Calling pay tribute to the Beast, you do strain at a gnat; tribute is more than just taxes, it is total obedience, it is servitude, it is crawling on your hands and knees and begging at the masters table for every little scrap that he will throw you.

Well I am a failure in the total obedience part and I have not gone crawling on my hands and knees begging for the master's scraps. I, just like you, work for FRNS and pay my own way. I do what I can to avoid THEM just like any other sane being.

Again, we would rather die than do this…we will not pledge allegiance to him any longer, we have returned in spirit and in truth to the rightful King, the King of the entire universe who is above all these self-appointed, "petty-little-Strawmen" with grandiose names and titles for themselves.

I shall continue to await your called out solution to taking the land inheritance and bypassing the FRN... until then, lets study these items of Daniel and Paul's CITIZENSHIP to corrupt ROME when he wrote Romans 13. I am sure many want to understand how Paul could write Romans 13 under a corrupt GOVT and say that all authority is ordained by YHWH.. That's a pretty clear statement coming from one who is a CITIZEN of a corrupt Rome... don't you think this is worth discussing in depth? Many reading this, I Am sure, do.

Most people call the Creator their God, we call Him our King!!! He is our Judge, He is our Lawgiver, He is our King, He is our Saviour and if anyone doesn’t like this, they can kiss our Royal asses!!!

What's not to like? Do what is in your heart. What is in my heart is to have full understanding, especially since I have seen a great deal of this doctrine in action with my own two eyes. I would hope you would want or expect nothing less from me, no?

We pray this has helped to clarify our stance for those who do not understand… All Hail Yahweh, King of kings and Lord of lords!! Blessed be the King for ever and ever! ‘amein

Peace to you all.. enjoying this dialog..


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.
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Servant of All
Regular Member

Israel
41 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  00:45:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
oneisraelite;

Thank you for clearing up the "Yahshua" question above.

Batkol;

It appears, probably only to me, that the 'root' of the Bondage issue may be context. As it was in the beginning, perhaps it is all about 'choice'. Daniel did not have choice about his captivity. Neither did his three companions. Noah chose to obey God and build the ship, though it was costly to his reputation and family. Abraham heard Yahweh then obeyed by leaving his family, friends, and culture to go without knowing where. Many more examples abound in the Scriptures about men who made choices about obedience in many different circumstances. Still, they made the choice to obey within the limits of their circumstance and let the Living God take care of the rest. So...go ahead and make the best choice that your Creator asks of you. If it means voluntary servitude for a worldly master, just make sure it's God Almighty then obey.

As for me and my house, we will serve the One True God and none other by obeying Him and taking steps and sacrifice to come out of the world masters' domain. We do not work for 'FRNs'since we are ambassadors for the Messiah and are restricted from that by our host authority. We do exchange the currency of our Father's Kingdom for local currency wherever we sojourn and trade this local currency for necessities as directed by the Head of the mission. We inadvertantly must 'pay tax' as a matter of course in the exchange of value for value but we trust that our Creator is large enough to supply that also. Since it His direction we seek moment by moment, it is only by HIS grace that we live and move and have our being. It may seem simplistic but it works for us and doesn't compromise my narrow-minded conscience. Enough said.

All;
I sure appreciate this stimulating discourse. I can see the edge on my sword getting finer.


May God Almighty bless you richly as you trust and obey Him more today!

In His service,

Philip the least
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  08:40:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Steven:
Peace be unto the house.
Come let us reason together; let us discuss one issue at a time rather than using the shotgun approach, shall we?

Me: Peace to you as well... Yes. Let's! I agree. We need to take our time and most certainly reason together. These are crucial
issues.

You: But before we do, may we enquire where this is written?
"It is written if Elohim is in your heart then do all that is in your heart."

Me: I was trying to quote basically what Nathan said to David in 2 Samuel 7:3. You seem to be on a mission.. YHWH is with you
so do all that is in your heart. I don't have my laptop which has by Quickverse so I am typing either from memory or from one of the
many Bibles that I have... Can't wait to get my laptop back from the shop... they has to send it out of state... ;-(

You ask: "Then answer this please: If the 1st Commandment's proper inteperatation is as you say it is, one of a political nature, Did YHWH suspend the 1st Commandment when Daniel accepted the TITLE given to him? When Daniel continued to serve the KING after the Lion's den?"

Us: The answer is, yes, Yahweh suspended His First Commandment, and not just for Daniel.

Me: Here are my points on why I cannot agree with the idea that the 1st commandment was ever suspended.

1. Scriptures

A. For you are near me, O YHWH, and all your commands are true. I
have learned from my earliest days that your decrees never change." (Psalm 119: 151-152)

B. "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Matt 5:18

Seeing as the heaven and earth was around, and the Law had not yet benn fullfilled during Daniel/BELTESHAZZAR, SHADRACH, MESHACH and ABEDNEGO's time, then most certainly the first commandment could not have been suspended after it was given. There are other scriptures I could post but these make the point well.

2. Daniel's center-piece is the first commandment and following Torah ..It was faithfully followed and YHWH protected Daniel/BELTESHAZZAR, SHADRACH, MESHACH and ABEDNEGO because of it:.

See below:

A. Daniel 3:28

When SHADRACH, MESHACH and ABEDNEGO where thrown into the furnace for not bowing down to the statue god, it is clearly because they refused to break the first commandment of having any other Elohim before YHWH.. YHWH saved them because of it...Even Nebuchadnezzer proclaimed, in Daniel 3:28 -"Blessed is the Elohim of SHADRACH, MESHACH and ABEDNEGO , who sent His angel and saved servants who relied on Him and disobeyed the king's order and offered their bodies in order not to worship or prostrate themselves to any god other than their God". Once again they proved their faithfullness to Torah while in bondage (remember the Kashrut Law they refused to break in chaper 1). If the first commandment is, as you teach, having no earthly rulers or excepting TITLES or NAMES, then these three would have been toast, seeing as they traversed greatly.

B. Daniel 6:5-6

That Daniel followed the BABYL KINGDOM's rules and YHWH's Torah is clearly displayed here in 6:5 just after Daniel is appointed a high position, "thereupon these visiers and satraps (Daniel's underlings) tried to find a libel against Daniel with regard to the kingdom, but they could find neither fault nor corruption, because he was faithful and nor could error or corruption be found in him. 6 Then these men said, "We will not find any fault with this Daniel, unless we find it in him through the law of his God."

The whole kingdom knew about YHWH's Law because they had wittnessed YHWH's protection of SHADRACH, MESHACH and ABEDNEGO for refusing to break the first commandment. In fact, even upon their arrival to BABYL, they proving to keep Torah by directly refusing to eat the king's food. These jealous
underlings knew how to entrap Daniel... by YHWH's Laws!

C. Daniel 6:17, 27

That Daniel was known for his' dedication to keeping YHWH's commandments is evident here in Daniel 6:17, "Then the king commanded and they brought Daniel and threw him into the lion's pit. The king explianed to Daniel, "May your God, whom you serve continually, save you!" Even the king proclaims after Daniel's salvation, "An order is herby issued by me that in all the domination of my kingdom people shall tremble and be in fear before the God of Daniel, Who is the living God and endures forever, Whose kingdom will not be destroyed and Whoe dominion is until the end"... Now for a pagan king to declare this, it is clear that this man has seen what following Torah will do. YHWH's Torah trumps man's law, when the two are in conflict. They whole stroy rings with the message again and again that the CAPTIVES stayed true to Torah and YHWH honored them.

D. Conclusion:

Daniel 3:28 is a testamony of the First Commandment. Daniel 6:5-6 shows that Daniel was so faithful to the KINGDOM that the only way to
entrap him was not by pre-existing BABYL LAW to which he was complient to, but to write a new LAW that would traverse YHWH's Law.
They knew Daniel would never traverse Torah, so they clearly used Torah against him. Daniel 6:17 shows that even the king recognised Daniel as serving YHWH continually. Daniel 6:27 shows that even the pagan king recognises YHWH's dominion is forever.


You said: Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. Nevertheless he left not himself without witness...

Now it is left to us to determine what is meant by the phrase "in times past". Let us look at the Scripture for this answer. We perceive that this is when Yahweh began to "suffer" [allow with distress]:

"And Yahweh said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them."
Hearken means listen and obey, i.e. He is going to "suffer" them to walk in their own ways.

Me: It seems that YHWH began to suffer much earlier than this but I agree that this verse would qualify.

You: We can also determine by this phrase, "in times past" that at the time of this writing, or perhaps before, this was no longer true.

Me: The problem that I have with implying that the suffering was a suspension of the first commandment and that the first commandment was re-instituted by the time this phrase was written is this:

Paul, who is a big charecter in Acts and probably was the one quoted in saying this verse you post was a Roman CITIZEN. If the first commandment was in context of being a CITIZEN, then Paul was in serious breach (especially with his Romans 13, written to those under corrupt Rome). To take in consideration that one is serving two masters if one is a CITIZEN is hard to swallow, especially if you are using Paul. One would expect Paul to know what the first commandment is considering his claim to be "zealous about the Laws of his fathers ( i.e. - Torah), a star student of Gamaliel, and one who "upholds the Torah". That he would miss something so plain as the meaning of the first commandment, if your rendering is correct, is hard to grasp.


You: Can we agree on this point?

Me: I am not making the connection you are putting forth in light of my responses above. Maybe you can refute my statements
and in doing so, your point may become a bit clearer to me. I am having a hard time seeing the verse in Acts as an indication that
the first commandment was suspended, especially concerning Paul's ROMAN CITIZENSHIP.

You: If we can, then the next thing we must determine is when did this time end. If we can't, then there is no point in moving on. Would you agree? One thing at time, slow and easy. Okay? With no rudeness or inuendos from either of us. Agreed?

Me: Yes. Agreed. But I still think we need to stay on the issue of the first commandment being suspended, especially in light of Matt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." In Daniel's time the Law was not yet fulfilled. Going slow is the key... let's not rush past this first commandment suspension issue. We need to stay on it as it is a major foundation to the argument that CITIZENSHIP or SUBMISSION to foreign GOVT is a breach of the first commandment. I will stay on topic because I sincerely want to get to the root of this issue.

You: Please give our love to the family. Thanks

Me: Yes, do the same.
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  12:02:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and salutations in the name of Yahushua, Servant to All:
Peace be unto you.
First, let us thank you for putting your valuable "two cents" into this discussion...we probably needn't say this but all are welcome to join in, on either side of this issue.
We hope we satisfactorily answered your question "IAUE is looking for a few Yahushuas", as you seem to indicate that we did.
It has been a blessing being able to “speak” with you privately, dear brother and we appreciate the efforts and time that you have devoted to manifesting the Kingdome of Yahweh once more on this earth.
You said: “If it means voluntary servitude for a worldly master, just make sure it's God Almighty then obey.”
We ask, did you mean to say, “just make sure it is “of” Yahweh [God] Almighty…then obey”. For clarification of our question, we are not taking issue with the phrase “God Almighty”, we are asking whether you meant, “of” Yahweh. We know you already know this, but for edification of the body politic, we cannot obey contradistinct “rules”. It is a physical impossibility! If the rules of the worldly master are exactly the opposite of Yahweh’s, we cannot obey him and Yahweh both. This is why it is written: “We ought to obey Yahweh, rather than men” and “no man can serve two masters”; if any particular worldly master is “of” Yahweh then his laws will reflect this; "ye shall know them by their fruit". Whenever rulers of the world and their “laws” come into conflict with Yahweh’s Law we must follow the Supreme Sovereign. We see from the Greek word kosmokrator that it is the “worldly rulers” who are the “adversary” of Yahweh, hence to obey them when they are in opposition to Yahweh is to be the enemy of Yahweh [Yahu’aqob (James) 4:4]. This, as Steven would say, is the crux of the problem. For one to believe that they can obey both is akin to saying one can be up and down, black and white, right and wrong all at the same time.
You said: “As for me and my house, we will serve the One True God and none other by obeying Him and taking steps and sacrifice to come out of the world masters' domain.”
Us: We must, out of common sense, agree with this stand. Firstly, it is written that we must enter the Kingdom of Yahweh as a "small child". We perceive that one of the many allegorical statements this is making is that we must first learn to walk, before we can run; we must first receive “milk” before we are ready for “strong meat”. For a child to refuse to get off his hands and knees before he can win a marathon is refusal to even try to walk, hence he will probably never walk, or if he ever does, others who were willing to take those few staggering steps will be miles ahead of him.
You state “We do exchange the currency of our Father's Kingdom for local currency wherever we sojourn” and that you “inadvertently must 'pay tax' as a matter of course in the exchange of value for value”.
We say: you are doing a wonderful job of trying to perfect your walk and we need to talk more on this, for at a time when we should be eating strong meat we are still in need of milk.
The Chinese have a saying, “the journey of a thousand miles, begins with but a single step”…your Father, we are sure, is proud of you for having the courage to take that first (?) step!!
You said: “All; I sure appreciate this stimulating discourse. I can see the edge on my sword getting finer.”
Us: sister Kathleen: and I are saying the same exact thing. Soon we hope to be able to “figuratively” lop off the heads of the naysayers with the knowledge, wisdom and understanding of Yawheh.
We understand that the Kingdome of Yahweh is not yet fully manifested, to think otherwise would be foolish, but to sit on our hands and wait for that day we feel would be foolish as well. So like you we do what Yahweh moves us to do toward that end.
The blessing of Yahweh be upon you: we bless you in the name of Yahweh. Psalm 129:8b

fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 20 Feb 2004 12:18:25
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  16:17:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Phillip,
Deut 28 is very clear that punishment includes SLAVERY for breaking the covenant. If you don't see a re-instituted David Kingdom, then the BONDAGE is still here. (Indeed, the Roman fourth kingdom exile as foretold by Daniel). The Judeans at the time of Christ were under SERVITUDE to ROME. The Judeans at the time of Christ were searching for a military leader to over-throw the ROMAN gov't and usher in the Messianic Throne of David. When Christ was in custody of Pilate, the Judeans choose to have Barrabbas, the militant Zealot released instead of Christ who proclaimed that His kingdom was not of this world or his servants would fight. The Judeans did not like this message because the kingdom they were expecting was one very much of the world. A internet study on Barabbas will show that most likely he was a Zealot, as were likely the two "thieves" being crucified with Christ. The Zealots were well known for their ability to sneek up and put a knife in the back of the enemy and slip off into the crowd. They were held in high esteem to the CAPTIVE Judeans..The Zealots and Pharisees were very much against the Roman occupation and wanted to be Sovereign via the re-instituted Throne of David. That is why they choose Barabbas. He stood for "insurrection" per the book of Mark and was a hero to The Judeans and a threat to Rome. Christ was no threat to Rome as Pilate could not find him guilty of the trumped up charges brought against him. The Judeans had no use for a kingdom that is not of this world as they wanted liberation from Rome and were expecting fullfillment of the Messianic prophecies. A message of "Love your enemies" was not going to get Rome defeated. The book of Zecheriah tells of a military victory (as does other prophecies).. This is the message the Judeans wanted and that is why they choose Barabbas. Christ's message was not 'of this world' else his servants would fight. This is not something the Judeans wanted spread around. They wanted Barabbas. Love your enemies is not what the CAPTIVES wanted to hear.

Edited by - BatKol on 20 Feb 2004 18:19:07
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  18:44:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Steven:
May we enquire as to just what your solution is to end the bondage your fellow Americans, your brothers and sisters, are in?


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  21:28:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings to you All,

You asked:
May we enquire as to just what your solution is to end the bondage your fellow Americans, your brothers and sisters, are in?

Me: If one believes what is written in the Tanakh, then one would need to see the hearts of the sons turn back to the fathers. What we have now is tribal dis-unity, not the re-uniting of the tribes. We need to learn how to love our neighbor before being able perform righteous government. We are nowhere close. Part of this process includes those who were supposed to be under the Torah, returning to Torah i.e. - Israelites. They will be the Light to the nations, in that the nations will see the excellence of their way of life and desire it for themselves. A big plus would be worshiping YHWH as the sole Deity (in the Daniel context). This would lead the way to the coming of the Moshiach who will bring about the prophecies that promise Real change. Weapons to plowshares, etc.


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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  22:58:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and Peace,

You said: Peace be unto the house.
We will start with your two reasons for not agreeing that the First Commandment of Yahweh was suspended FOR A TIME.

Me: OK

You said:
We perceive that “suspended,” “never changing” and “passing away” are three different topics. Can something be suspended for a time without being changed or passing away?

Me: Would not the very suspension itself be a change? A passing away, even if for a moment? Deut 28 clearly shows that the Torah has not been suspended... We are living in the very curses promised in the Torah for not following it. So were the Israelites during the time of the Christ. The curses are part of the Torah as well. Read Deut 28 and look out the window and you will see that the Torah curses are in full effect. Read the history of Israel and you will see that the punishments of Torah were very much in effect. Even the blessings as Daniel proved to us. BONDAGE is included in Torah as a penalty. If the Law was suspended, then there would be no punishment. Not a jot or tittle shall pass, be changed or even suspended. Tanakh: If these Laws could be removed from before Me, the word of YHWH, so could the seed of Israel cease from being a people before Me forever. Torah is what keeps Israel, Israel and there has always been those who have not breached Torah. Daniel is a great example. So to agree with your assertion I would need to see a verse that clearly shows that YHWH suspended Torah.

Your reference from Acts quoted by Paul the ROMAN CITIZEN does not show that the first commandment was ever suspended, and most certainly not show that the first commandment meant no CITIZENSHIP, seeing as Paul himself was a CITIZEN. Again, I would need to see where excatly YHWH said he would suspend the first commandment.
Especially in light of the testomony of BELTESHAZZAR, SHADRACH, MESHACH and ABDENEGO. Never was it Lawful for an Israelite to recognise another Deity other than YHWH. It is because the first commandment was NOT suspended that got Israel into the mess they got into... and are in now.

You: They have never changed because True Law is fixed, they won’t pass away because True Law is permanent, but can it be suspended FOR A TIME by the One who instituted them?

Me: Again, I do not see any verse that says YHWH suspended the first commandment. I see the breach of the first commandment as the reason for Israel's BONDAGE. Following other Deities of the Goyim.

You: Could it be that they were suspended and this is why Yahweh instructed Shama'el [Samuel] what would become of them without His Moral Law?

Me: The moral Law was not suspended. You are leaving out the part where Samuel instructs the Israelites after they have accepted the SUBJECTION in 1 Sam 12:20: Fear not. You have done all this evil - but do not turn away from following YHWH, rather serve YHWH with all your heart. 21 Do not turn away for pursuing futilities that cannot avail and cannot rescue, for they are futile. 22 For YHWH shall not forsake His people for the sake of His great Name; for YHWH has sworn to make you for a people unto Him. 23 And I, also- far be it from me to sin against YHWH and refrain from praying on your behalf; rather I shall instruct you in the good and proper path. 24. Only fear YHWH and serve Him faithfully, with all your hearts, for look at how much he has done for you. 25 But if you act wickedly, both you and your king will perish..

Now a big red flag comes up when I read this and consider your claim of serving two masters and not being subject to a king. Yes, the Israelites will be taxed, children pressed into service for the king, etc.. but still, in the midst of these punishments, Samuel tells them NOT to turn away from YHWH.. Now, if your teaching of the first commandment is correct, this would be impossible to both fear YHWH
and serve him faithfully while paying the TAXES, and all of the curses of 1 Sam 8. However, Samuel instructs them in this very thing.
Samuel says he will instruct the Israelites on a good path while being SUBJECT to the king. No dictionaries needed, the story itself at face value shows one can serve an earthly king and still serve YHWH faithfully (1 Sam 12:24). If not then you get verse 25, But if you act wickedly, both you and your king will perish.

You: Essentially Shama'el told the people that they would be taxed in every facet of their being, their children would be conscripted to fight wars and make weapons for their earthly ruler(s), their burden would be so heavy that their women would have to work, the earthly ruler(s) would take their land, and in the end they would become his servants [volunteer slaves]. Is this the stuff that happens to us by being Torah observant? Perhaps we are missing something here.

Me: Yes. You are missing the part of the Torah which says these things will happen if the Torah is breached. Just because Israel is reaping the curses does it mean that the other obligations are on hold....Also you are missing 1 Sam 12:20-25 which instructs the Israelites how to behave and serve YHWH on the 'good path' while being SUBJECT to the king. Very clear.

The Torah does not get suspended, it gets enforced. Part of the punishments are the very things you list above. Never is an Israelite
to recognise another Deity other than YHWH, either Free or SLAVE. Ths is the essense of the first commandment... alive and in full effect during the BABYL CAPTIVITY as demonstarated by Daniel.

You: As to the question of using "daggers" against them, are we not told, "For I will not trust in my bow, neither shall my sword save me."

Me: The Zealots ignored this teaching. In this I agree.

You: Just for clarification, which of these definitions of Torah are you using? Webster's New World Dictionary of American English
Torah 1 the whole body of Jewish religious literature, including the Scripture, the Talmud, etc. 2 the Pentateuch

Me: The Pentateuch.


Peace be to you all on this Spring-like eve. Thank you for spending the time with me on this.
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Servant of All
Regular Member

Israel
41 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  23:49:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings, all, in the most high name of Yahshua, Yahweh's Anointed One;


Oneisraelite,

You have made a good observation and I humbly stand corrected. You ar correct in determining the meaning of the phrase "making sure it is [of] God Almighty".

We are in agreement about the standard for obedience to the Living God. His command must supercede all else. 'One cannot serve two masters, else he will love one and hate the other or hate one and love the other (paraphrase)'.

I believe I stand in exception, however, with the 'suspension of True Law' theory you present, if I tuly understand what you are meaning. Rules, codes, benefits, opportunities, and privileges are subject to suspension but, if God's Law is to consistantly show man his need for God's Only Begotten Son as his Kinsman Redeemer from the eternal death penalty of his disobedience, His Law cannot be.

Batkol,

You are so right about the punishment stated in Deuteronomy for disobedience to Yahweh's commands.

This Scripture is also very clear about the reward for OBEDIENCE to the same commands. Respectfully, I have not been able to observe a general physical captivity or slavery, with regard to restriction of movement and/or access as exampled in the books of the Old Covenant, in this nation or locally among the fellowship of the ecclesia. As for spiritual, mental and emotional captivity, that is precisely why the Father in Heaven sent Yahshua to man; to set the captives free. I am truly thankful for the relative physical freedom to make a choice for Yahweh and obedience to His command in all areas of my life without wondering if I am 'rightly dividing the Word of Truth' because I am locked in a cell or government building without access to Scripture or the counsel of the bretheren of Yahshua the Messiahs' ecclesia.


May God Almighty bless you richly as you trust and obey Him more today!

In His service,

Philip the least
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Manuel
Advanced Member

USA
762 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  23:55:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings to all, In His name, Yahushuah.

The scum rises to be seen as this reality:

"Good governments follow the Laws of Father, Bad governments do not follow the Laws of Father, and Ugly government neither follow the Laws of Father, nor their own."

Now... the reason we have UGLY GOVERNMENT is because the people are wicked. But... those which are for Father and refuse to steal, murder, lie, sheat, etc., (no Law of His Limitation as of yet), are part of the rightious which stand away. Face it... Fathers Children where not before, now, and to come, "butchered" because they gave to Ceasars conmen and their acrobats what belonged to them... It happens because they are for Father, depending of how harmoniously they "blow their trumpets" from the rooftops. It Is for His Image they comform, not theirs. They stood, now In His right, as we stand today, and to morrow, through His Will. If not for their examples of yesterday, In His Order, for they walk His path, no testimony would be inherited for us to walk In His ways. So praise be to His Word, which is of Him.

What would this world be with out Him? NIHIL (NO-THING) nada, finito, terminado. Remember, it is not finished... yet. Are there reasons for these events to have taken place? Surely there are - for does not these events take root, or dry up? There is certain weather for all seasons and certain obligations for each living man, creature and all which is living.

The question is, whom shall you serve?

It is of great joy, and lament, to read from all of you,
I am, In Him,
Manuel



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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2004 :  08:40:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Manuel,
I have three questions for you:

1. What status of GOVT would you condsider ROME during the time of Christ and Paul? Good, bad or ugly?

2. Then please answer why Paul, a CITIZEN of the above GOVT, would write something such as Romans 13?

3. If the first commandment demands you cannot be a CITIZEN,
how could Paul, who "upholds the Torah", have missed the big
number one?

Sincerely awaiting the answer to these questions. I have yet to see anybody willing to answer these questions although I have asked them again and again and again and again and again.

Steve



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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2004 :  08:52:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Philip said: This Scripture is also very clear about the reward for OBEDIENCE to the same commands. Respectfully, I have not been able to observe a general physical captivity or slavery, with regard to restriction of movement and/or access as exampled in the books of the Old Covenant, in this nation or locally among the fellowship of the ecclesia.

BatKol: I know what you mean but ponder this: A license is permission to do that which is ILLEGAL. TAXES as well. Next time you pay a TAX consider this phrase from Yahushua, "Who does the king collect TAXES from his children or his SUBJECTS" .. If we have to pay a TAX just to get the GAS to drive down to the STORE to get food we have to pay TAX on... then the children are NOT free. It seems the
RULERS of today have perfected this BONDAGE and I have not seen anybody escape it... How could we? It's what YHWH said he would punish us with.


Philip said: As for spiritual, mental and emotional captivity, that is precisely why the Father in Heaven sent Yahshua to man; to set the captives free.

batKol: Nicely put. I agree with this 100%. Yahushua's kingdom is not of this world. The future Davidic Kingdom will be very much of this world in the sense that there will be a physical governing body
enforcing Torah as well as a collection of TRIBUTE from all non-Israelites.


Philip: I am truly thankful for the relative physical freedom to make a choice for Yahweh and obedience to His command in all areas of my life without wondering if I am 'rightly dividing the Word of Truth' because I am locked in a cell or government building without access to Scripture or the counsel of the bretheren of Yahshua the Messiahs' ecclesia.

BatKol: In a cell or out, if He is in you... He is in you. I do agree with your statement of relative physical freedom. We have it much better than those in the past..

Peace to all,
Steve


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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2004 :  13:55:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings in the name of the King of Kings, brother Philip:
Peace be to you and yours.
You said: "Philip: I am truly thankful for the relative physical freedom to make a choice for Yahweh and obedience to His command in all areas of my life without wondering if I am 'rightly dividing the Word of Truth' because I am locked in a cell or government building without access to Scripture or the counsel of the bretheren of Yahshua the Messiahs' ecclesia."
Us: Perhaps we misunderstand what you have said in the above, but for the record; have been in their "prisons" about four or five times [whose counting] they have always kept me in solitary confinement, have never given me a Book of Scriptures [even though I asked] and only once was I ever allowed visitors.
Yahweh bless.

fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.
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