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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2003 : 21:58:43
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God's instructions consist of torah shebiktav, wrtitten torah, or what is known as the pentateuch. These five books of Moses-Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy were given to Israel at Sinai. Israel's sages believed that Moses received further oral instruction or torah shebe'al pe.
During the time of Yeshua, the orthodox view was that this Oral Torah had been handed down from generation to generation. The Oral Torah included the precepts and interpretations implied in the Written Torah. It also came to include the legal decisions of rabbinic courts and the oral traditions of their predecessors.
The body of legal precedent that develops as judges hand down rulings which interpret the laws of legislators is analogous to the Oral Torah. The written law is applied as cases are brought forward that create a tradition of interpretations and precedents which are no less authoritive than the laws themselves.
The traditions of the elders claimed an authority and continuity equal to that of the Written Torah. It claimed authenticity as a living interpretation and essential complement to Written Torah above the Oral Torah only with the Written Torah as its foundation. The changes in the traditions brought the need for interpretation but the Oral and Written Torah were dependent upon one another.
The Mishnah was the first compilation of Oral Torah authored by Rabbi Yehuda ha-Nazi about 200 AD. Tradition was to hand the Oral Torah down orally but once the tradition was broken, other collections of Oral Torah were incorporated, such as the commentary on the Mishnah known as Gemara. The writings were eventually put together as the Talmud. The Jerusalem Talmud, compiled in Israel, and the Babylonian Talmud compiled by Jewish sages in Babylon. They differ but the Mishna in both is Rabbi Yehuda's.
The Written Torah is not viewed as something separate from the Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud is central in Jewish education. A thorough knowledge of Written Torah is a prerequisite to Talmudic study as it is the foundation of the "house" of Talmud. As in the days of Yeshua, every Orthodox Jewish child grows up learning the bible with the Pentateuch the all important first step to learning Talmud.
Yeshua attached great importance to the Oral Torah unwritten in his day. This is evidenced in Matthew 23:3 when he admonishes his disciples to "do and observe everything they (the scribes and Pharisees) command you". He was referring to the Pharisee's oral traditions and interpretations of the Written Torah. The written Torah could not been in question, for it was accepted by all sects of Judaism. Further evidence comes from Yeshua when he said in Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. The jot is the yod of the Hebrew language and the kotz is the tittle and of course the law is Torah.
Further indirect but obvious evidence is that Yeshua was never charged with breaking any part of Torah. The disciples were accused of disobeying aspects of Oral Torah in Luke 6:1-2 but the only accusation against Yeshua was for breaking Sabbath by healing the sick (Luke 14:1-4).
Christian lack of knowledge of Jewish custom has led to misunderstanding Yeshua. His focus was never on himself but on God. A major misunderstanding of Jewish Oral Torah comes in not knowing the rabbinic prohibition against using the unutterable name of God. The original understanding of the third commandment of Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Also the the original malkut shamaiyim (Kingdom of Heaven) is common in Hebrew literature of the period while Kingdom of God is not. The most common word for God used by Yeshua was "heaven". This is seen in Matthew 21:25 "The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven (ie: from God), or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
Another example of rabbinic sophistication is recorded in Matthew 26:64, "Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven". The right hand of power hints at two messianic passages from scripture, Daniel 7:13 and Psalm 110:1.
Credit for the research goes to David Bivin, director of the Jerusalem School for the Study of the Synoptic Gospels and publisher of the Jerusalem Perspective.
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Kevin Kranz
Regular Member
Albania
26 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2003 : 16:53:36
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HI True North.I can't agree with the above article. The above research by David Bivin is the same old propaganda by the Jews over many thousands of years, which is incorrect and is a decption to say the least. First of all you have to work out who are the Jews? Now we know that the Talmud is a very satanic book. Have you ever read any of it?
The Christians and public alike have been led down the garden path in regard to who are Gods chosen race. There are many decptions that have been perpetrated for a long time and most of the time the Christians and public alike have never been able to sort it out.
May I ask you who do you think the Jews are firstly?
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 09:33:56
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Hey Kevin
Please forgive me if I do not answer extremes. All I tried to point out with the above article is that most of us are ignorant and most of us speak death out of our ignorance.
The ideology of a chosen race is ignorant of personal responsibility. It is the individual that chooses to partake of life or that same individual chooses to partake of death.
As for who is a Jew...all who have...put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 10:21:11
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| Greetings this fine Day. So few have put on the new man, the scripture is redundant, as yet, for most...that all are One! The word jew was not used or spelled as"jew" till 1775. The KJV translates the word Yehudah {Jews} firstly in 11 Kings 16th ch. All the Law, covenants and this is also the new covenant, promises, etc. were and are given to the House of Israel and Judah. The tal-MUD is just that, mud. Yahushua declared the edomite Jews, with their traditions {read talmud} try to make the Word of YHWH of none effect. Yahushua had nothing good to say about the religious "jew's" traditions. Nor do I. Maybe 3-5% of modern "Jews" are of the House of Israel. And no-One washed in the Blood of the Lamb would read the filth of the talmud any longer than it would take him to feel the presence of evil within its pages! Paul was of Benyamin {the light within Judah} and was counted within the house of the remenant of Judah. Yet he was forever trying, through the foolishness of preaching, to show Us the revelation of the new man forming within us, i.e. messiah, the new creation. Messiah {Christ} in you...the hope of glory. Judah is recognized today by the rampart lion on countries...and family crests. Scotland forever! Judah is likely 30% of the peoples of northern european descent, scattered about in Australia, New Zealand, America, Canada, Denmark, Norway...you get the picture. |
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godlyman
Regular Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2003 : 21:40:28
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The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book. Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament scripture in Judaism. Evidence of this can be found in the Talmud itself:
Erubin 21b (Soncino edition): "My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament)."
The warnings of Christ Jesus about the traditions of men that voids the commandments of God (Mark 7:1-13), is actually a direct reference to the Talmud, or more properly, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing.
The rabbis later added the Gemara (rabbinical commentaries) to the Mishnah. Together these comprise the Talmud. There are two versions, the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud. The Babylonian Talmud is regarded as the authoritative version:
"The authority of the Babylonian Talmud is also greater than that of the Jerusalem Talmud. In cases of doubt the former is decisive." (R.C. Musaph-Andriesse, From Torah to Kabbalah: A Basic Introduction to the Writings of Judaism, p. 40).
Unfortunately, due to the ignorance of our day, the widespread Christian notion is that the Old Testament is the supreme book of Judaism. But this is not so. The Pharisees teach for doctrine the commandments of men, not God; the Talmudic commentary on the Bible is their supreme law and not the scripture itself. That commentary does indeed, as Jesus said, void the laws of God, not uphold them.
"The modern Jew is the product of the Talmud..." (Babylonian Talmud, published by the Boston Talmud Society, p. XII)
It should be noted that there is a small Jewish sect which makes considerable effort to shun, avoid, and abstain from the Talmud and adhere to the Old Testament alone. These are the Karaites, a most hated and severely persecuted group within Judaism. |
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2003 : 06:46:57
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Agreed and with your considerations also consider ...
Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
There is/were conditions of that covenant that exist and will continue to exist. From the time of adam to Abraham there were things that are hinted at in Jewish writings. There was law given for atonement immediately after the disobedience in the garden. This statement follows the logic that Cain and Abel would not have known about sacrifice and atonement without it.
Throwing out the baby with the water ... etc. Let us not forget that Ruach HaKodesh is in charge. Inspiration comes from Him and study of Him.
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Manuel
Advanced Member
USA
762 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2003 : 00:16:33
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Speaking like a child, for I am not learned on history as others who have many more years gathering information following only truth, not what the "institution" demands, I can tell you that whatever is happening is evil to its core. When one falls in the snare of that which only continues the downward slide of moral "civilization," one begins to put a stop to it, so It does not happen to their "young ones," BUT... but... when attempts to correct is hampered, critized, and even threatened with harm, incarceration, and even fleshly death,
then and only then one realizes that none of it was coincidental.
Paul was a man searching to destroy those bringing the light as a sinner... then, as he entered His light, he became the hunted which not even the law-yer he asked for (I believe the lawyers name was Zephas)could even save him through the "law" of that time.
The same occurs today as then. There are catholic law-yers, lutheran law-yers, pentecostal law-yers, jewish law-yers etc... But of all, for some reason, I have heard that the jewish law-yers dominate the BAR-FLY FIELD of "law-practice." That does not mean that I despise only a few, but all of them that through their "drunkeness," either fail to acknowledge, but also fail to "extract" themselves out of that evil practice which is in the forefront of "managing" the HOLOCAUST.
One would think that the "judeo-christian" laws rightful "preists" would be the jews, but on the contrary, it is only a spreading plaque, like locusts devouring all that is right. Our Lawgiver reminds us that, "that which is crooked cannot be made straight."
The pope "papa," about a year ago condemned the "family courts." He gave warnings to the "canonist law-yers" that the family courts was an "EVIL CONSPIRACY," only to see ads on newspapers days later regarding a "FILE YOUR OWN DIVORCE TRUCK" roaming around at "A TOWN NEAR YOU!" and flourecent billboards on the "lobby" of the tallest building on this city (FAMILY WHOREHOUSE)claiming, "DOMESTIC VIOLENCE - MESANINE[sp?] LEVEL." Damn them!... they should have added to the sign, "FREE HOT DOGS AND COKE!" Soon after, they began the pedophile campaign against them, for which another 87 million FRT's (federal reserve tokens) have been extorted (settled) recently. See! if the outside of the cup is dirty, how can they claim to be clean also.
So to ALL! 1 year of "practice" or 25 years of "practice" I hereby tell them, "DAMN THEM, Hypocrites!" They have paved themselves a road to destruction, which all who fall on their net are as fit for hell as they are themselves. Unless... unless they come out of them! And do not recognize them as the false lawgivers, judges, general masters they "claim" to be. If your house has a foul smell of a dead beast, do you not grab it and throw it out? Far away, or even bury it deep enough, so not even the winds blow the stench your way? Or does one stay with them, allowing them to vex your spirit and everything that could be clean?
"If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being likeminded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose."
- Philippians 2:1,2
Manuel
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2003 : 20:24:49
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Greetings. May I remind us all; civil law is the same as Roman law.
My ancestors fled Europe to come to a New World, called America. Free from Pope's, civil laws, corrupt kings. Father is still guiding American's, through the night, with His light, from above. Hey, it ain't over yet. Revelations chapter twelve covers a long space of time. Each son, will be caught up to the heavenly's, the trick is to keep your feet on the ground! His feet shall stand on the Mountain of Olives, i.e. the mountain of annointing. Pronouns can be very hard to discern. |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2004 : 16:12:40
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Robert James or any others:
We have seen and heard what were purported to be exerpts from the Babylonian Talmud and they were filthy and vile.
Question: Does the Jerusalem Talmud also contain such material?
Do all who practice the jewish religion (other than the Karaites) consider the talmud to be an authoritive religious book that is worthy of study and of adherance to the principles and promulgations therein?
Marty |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 08:57:24
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Hello Marty,
Unfortunately, aside from Karaites, the Talmud is considered Torah also. There are those who call themselves Yosephites who, like the Karaites, consider the Tanakh to be the only inspired Scriptures. You will find these folks in fellowship with the Karaites. If you have not already joined, www.paltalk.com is a text/voice chat where you can chat with Karaites, Rabbinites, who ever. I have sat in some increadible debates between Karaites and Rabbinics on the issue of the Talmud. As long as one is respectful you have complete access to ask questions in real time. I have spent many hours quizing the Rabbis. There is no way around the Talmud for a Jew. With the exception of the Karaites, Judaism and the Talmud are joined at the hip. What I have learned that is of interest is the Massorites who compiled the Massoretic text were Jewish Karaites, not Talmudics. |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 12:58:14
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Batkol:
We appreciate the information.
Is it possible that the Karaites are in fact members of the "remnant of Judah" which the Scripture refers to and actual flesh and blood descendants of Judah the son of Jacob(Israyl)?
Could it be that those Jews who have an affinity for the Talmud are those referred to in Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 who say they are of our brother Judah and are not but are of the synagogue of Satan (and are not actual flesh and blood descendants of Jacob(Israyl)?
Marty |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 17:30:35
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| Could the Karaites be the remnant of Yahudah? Could very well be. I will tell you that the Karaites reject the Brit Hadesha (New Test) as well as Talmud. Tanakh only. |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 19:08:53
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Batkol:
These are just a few thoughts that occurred.
Do they reject Yahshua Messiah or do they reject some of the new writings (New Testament)?
I John 3:22 states: "Who is a liar, but he who denies that Yahshua is the Messiah? He is Anti-Messiah who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever does not have the Son does not have the Father either."...
Is that true?
II John 1:9 says "Whoever transgresses, and does not abide in the doctrine of the Messiah, does not have Yahweh. He who abides in the doctrine of the Messiah, has both the Father and the Son."
Is this true?
Marty |
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Manuel
Advanced Member
USA
762 Posts |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2004 : 18:26:53
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Basically the Karaites reject Yahushua as Moshiach ben David because those prophecies which are about the re-institution of the Global Kingdom of David have not yet happened. They recognise only the Torah, Prophets and the Writings (Tanakh). I sat in on a great Karaite study of the Shem Tov Matthew which is an early Hebrew translation. Some Karaites, while not believing that Yahushua was the Moshiach ben David, do recognise him as a learned Rabbi speaking out against the Pharisees, and supporting Torah. Here Yahushua and the Karaites agree. You can tune into them on Saturdays on Paltalk in the religious section in a room called "Target Tanakh". 2PM.
Nehemiah Gordon is head of the World Wide Karaite Movement based in Eratz Yisrael. He is also a translator working on the Dead Sea Scrolls project. Check out www.karaite-corner.org .
They have a very interesting take on the Sacred Calender. |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 08:05:37
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I have just been informed the proper link to the Karaites is
www.karaite-korner.org |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 21:01:07
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| What about saint Columba? He kept the names of the Father and Son, and the passover till the 530's a.d. till the CATHOLIC Augistine stopmed under their feet the Faith of Our Father's. We can be sure that the ancient Scots were bloodline Israelites, what of the Karaites? The Life is in the blood. "And to You that look for Him, shall He appear a second time, without sin.........." |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 21:48:39
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Robert-James, what is your comment on the Scottish Declaration of Arbroath stating that their ancestory is Scythian, not Israelite?
I have been chating with the man who used to own Commonwealth Books
(well known publishers of Anglo Israel books). This man is also a professional geneaologist. The Scots claim ancestry to the Scythians.
The Germans claim ancestry to the Assyrians. Even have a town named after an Assyrian princess. What is more to the point: The Torah has stipulations and instructions for other non-Israelite peoples to "convert" or rather become Citizens of Israel. The Tanakh shows many non-Israelite peoples did just that. In light of these provisions in the Torah, and the history of the Israelite people as outlined in the Tanakh, it is more correct to think of the Israelites as a people, not a race. As for the Anglo-Israel theory, I have yet to meet anybody who can sucessfully defend it without relying on unsubstantiated fairy tales. I have a picture of a statue of "The Dying Gaul" 300 BCE. As Anglo as can be. Paul tells the Galations it is pointless for them to seek to bind themself to the Torah, since they were never bound to it in the first place. If these white pagan Gauls were never under the Torah, how could they be Israelites? Would not Paul be saying to them "Hey, you guys are lost Israel. You need to follow Torah" if they were the lost Israelites? Our Anglo roots are Aryan (SumAryan). DNA evidence shows our ancestors were already in "the misty Isles" hundreds of years before the Exodus... When and if you ever look into this you will find a direct link to the Brahmin priests and the Druid priests. No hint of Torah with our ancestors. I would love for you to "turn me around" and "set me strait" on this... I would like to go back and re-debate the scholars and professors I went directly to, when researching the "Anglo-Israel" theory. There are many holes in the AI theory....
Actually it is pointless to argue race and the Israelites since the Torah gives clear instructions for other peoples becoming attached to YHWH and Torah. Being Israel is not about race. Sorry to break the bad news to you. I know race is/was one of your big points. |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 18:03:36
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BatKol,
yes, set up a meeting of minds with the experts.
Paul is very hard to understand, Peter about tilted following Paul's "revelation". Nothing new here. Paul also stated the Law is perfect, converting the souls of unregenerate men. Race still is one of the great torrents of Living waters. Yahushuah's bloodline was traced back to Adam for a reason. Great work is being done nowadays on DNA. A good judge withholds his decision till he sees and hears all the evidence. Israel is all about race, a race that fell into sin, who need a Redeemer, and a second non-physical birth. Then We shall become that blessing to the other races. Until 'then' all of creation groans and travails. |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 18:32:12
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Robert-James all sounds good except the Torah, given to both the Freed Israelites AND the mixed multitudes clearly states that other non-Israelites can become "Gerim" convert-citizens (the mixed multitudes became Citizens of Israel upon accepting the Torah). Those non_Israelites who did come in under these Torah provisions became Israelites.
As for Paul, it is very easy to understand when he is speaking to the white pagan Gauls: You were never under the Law! He gives them some Noachide type of laws for health like no eating flesh of live animals (pagans we are dealing with). If these white Gaul-ations were never under the Law then how can they be 'racial' Israelites? Given the clear stipulations in Torah for non-Israelites to become attached to YHWH as Citizens of Israel, it can't be about race. It's about a people who say, "YHWH is my Elohim, and Torah is the Law". Torah is very clear on this. |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 19:06:18
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Hi BatKol,
Paul's words and thoughts were to find and lead the lost sheep of the House of Israel, into an understanding of messiah Yahushuah, which was with the Israelites, in their wilderness walk...though they refused "Him". {thanks for the smiting, Moses}. He was with them, not in them.. In order to come into the House, the messiah Yahushuah takes over. The Son knows the Way home.
Just respecting the numbers in the censuss' of Moses and David, will lead a reasoner to understand, much of the bloodline did not go into Egypt...hence the statements by Paul on a wild olive tree needing grafting into the natural tree. Both are olive trees. Now, once Paul's revelations lead us to messiah Yahushuah, Yahushuah's Word must be followed. And He stated, he was not sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Remember Paul stated, it pleased the Father to reveal His Son, in him.
If I get struck by lightening three times in the same place, I will then change my mind on race. Remember the Alamo...someOne's must hold the fort. Noachide LAWS are pure talmudic. The Torah states, same Law for the stranger as the natural born sons. And, each marry physically, within their race. Paul also missed it on physical circumcision, yet I don't throw out the baby with the water. Father has not been silent the past 1973 years, as some would have us soppose. Acts, the book, is somewhere into chapter 2004, or whatever you surmise. The key is to find Our name, in the Book of Life.
Seek and ye shall find, knock and 'it' shall be opened unto you. Half-hearts, and lakeys for Caesar need not apply.
Whomsoever...is a fine word study in the 'new' covenant letters. Problem is, is that questions sovereignty in the minds of the seekers. If you 'is', nothing can deny you, if ye ain't, nothing you do will enhance 'it'. And we never know, till we try. The Mystery. |
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Yeshua and Talmud
