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Advanced Member

496 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  21:55:00  Show Profile
Aw, George,

You said that too well. You didn't leave me anything else to interject.

Peace brother,

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Forum Administrator

382 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  22:04:20  Show Profile  Visit Bondservant's Homepage

To all those posting in this thread:

Tone it down or I'll lock this topic up. These forums are available for you to comment, make opinions, share, fellowship, learn, teach, gain knowledge, seek understanding, discuss, etc. Note that PERSONAL ATTACKS are not on the list.

The internet calls what some of you are doing "FLAMING", which is the same as personally attacking someone else. Personal attacks are NOT tolerated on the ECC, PERIOD. If ANY of you can't keep to this simple guideline, you'll be banned from this forum. I hope I'm very clear and don't ever have to repeat this again.

I am also moving this topic to a more appropriate category.
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Regular Member

Antigua and Barbuda
27 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  00:20:10  Show Profile
Robert-James flamed: I said you were Judiaziers simply because you talk, think, and deny The firstborn son Yahushua The messiah.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Also Robert-James flamed: Maybe your just anti-messiah's.

I calmly respond: No, I'm pro messiah. Just that my belief of who or what the messiah is and yours are not the same.

Robert-James asks: How do you as individual sinners {lawbreakers} expect to get back in?

YHWH tells us: See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love YHWH thy Elohim, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and YHWH thy Elohim shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. - Deuteronomy 30:15,16


Say unto them, As I live, saith the Master YHWH, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? - Ezekiel 33:11

Robert-James is right in saying we are all lawbreakers. But that can be remedied by teshuva (turning back to YHWH in humble repentance). Ninevah tried this method. It worked for them. It will work for you too!

However, the law-less are different than the law-breakers. The law-less do not even so much as acknowledge that there is a law. Or at best give it mere lip service, or say it has been somehow nailed to a cross or done away with. That attitude makes true repentance (teshuva) impossible.

Acknowledge the law. Admit you have transgressed it. Such is the beginning of teshuva (returning to YHWH)! He is merciful and forgives transgressions abundantly to those who acknowledge His Torah and strive to walk in it!

Alas, that is too tall of an order for many. Mankind prefers to think someone else can pay for his iniquities. Not so. We are all accountable.

May YHWH grant understanding to all who read this, so as to effect true teshuva.

Shalom to those who seek His righteousness,
atarah1 (w/o flames)

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Advanced Member

209 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  00:30:56  Show Profile
George and Bondservant, amen and amen.

Bat and AmenYahu, please forgive me for my part in this, for I know that some of what I said came across as a personal attack, and this was not my intention. My prayer is that you will know the "freedom of the glory of the children of Elohim". I should have simply ignored Atarah.

Bat, I'm afraid it was your original reply to me that turned your good question into a spitting match (or worse). If it was cooperation you were looking for, this was not the place to denounce Yahshua and the Renewed Covenant. The way I see it: Israel broke the covenant and Yahshua renewed it (as Jeremiah prophecied). Didn't SOMEONE have to fix what Israel so horribly botched? Hosea and Jeremiah show that Yahweh divorced Israel, and this kind of thing doesn't get fixed easily - certainly not by mere mortals such as you and I.

I have tried to offer reasonable answers to you and AmenYahu, but you go by certain rules that allow you to shoot down most of what another says. Yet you offer no evidence that your "rules of interpretation" are any more correct than mine. If you go back through my posts, you will find many substantive points you have not addressed. Instead we go on about Daniel's 70 weeks, yet I am simply declared wrong. It would help your cause if you could offer a different explanation of how this prophecy was fulfilled.

Now can't you see where you lose credibility by quoting Moses about not adding to scripture, yet accept the many books written after his death as equally a part of scripture? Were you to say that only the first five books were scripture, at least that is a consistent position based on what Moses wrote in Deuteronomy. But to use this against the Renewed Covenant is hitting below the belt. I think anyone who thought the entire Bible was mythology would still agree that you have bent the rules heavily in your favor here.

Bat, I tried to genuinely address the last question you asked me about the shedding of blood, but you dismissed this as well. I did not ignore your question, I tried to show you the bigger picture, which I believe is Yahweh's perspective. I will will try to show this one more time:

Genesis 3:21 Yahweh made clothing from animal skins to "cover" Adam and Eve after they sinned. This involved shedding blood
Genesis 4 Abel's blood sacrifice is accepted. Cain wanted to worship Yahweh his own way, and was rejected.
Genesis 9:5 Yahweh requires our blood. Read the context to see how significant blood is when Noah was starting over after the flood.
Exodus 12 The passover is all about blood. When was the passover fulfilled?
Exodus 24 The covenant at Sinai is sealed with blood.
Exodus 29 The priests are set-apart (hallowed) with blood
Exodus 30:10 Yearly sin offering with blood, "throughout your generations"
Leviticus Blood is an integral part of the Levitcal instructions, including most sin offerings. You can hardly read a chapter without it.
Numbers 35 The instructions to Noah in much more detail, along with the reason (verse 33)
I Chronicles 28:3 David disqualified from building the temple because he shed blood - even though this was in obedience to Yahweh.
II Chronicles 29 Hezekiah offers one of few examples of obedience in Israel's history. It includes blood for a sin offering.
Ezekiel 33:25 It is still important not to eat the blood. The rules (Torah) have not changed since Noah's day.
Ezekiel 39 Sin leading to a blood sacrifice of biblical proportions. This one is judgment on the unrepentant at the end of the age.
Ezekiel 43:18f More sin offerings involving blood
The prophets repeat over and over that innocent blood is being shed in the land. Based on Numbers 35:33, how is the land ever going to be cleansed?
Joel 3:21 The last verse in Joel. This cleansing will apparently be the last act of Yahweh, before He can dwell in Zion. This again shows how significant blood is in the big picture.
Zechariah 9:9f The last mention of blood in the Old Testament (as Christians order it), and it occurs in a Messianic prophecy telling about the King coming!

Do you have a reason from Torah to claim that it is all so straightforward that no one can miss it? This forms the basis for much of your dismissal of Messianic prophecies. You never responded to Isaiah 6 which shows that those with eyes will not "see". The sacrificial system was a shadow-picture of the real. You don't have to agree with me on this, but you do have to come to terms with how hugely significant blood is to Yahweh, and seek a reason for why this is.

I know of no one (including myself) who claims to have completely escaped the clutches of Babylon, but I know of some who are very serious about doing so. Yahweh is teaching us much as we walk this path. He has us dealing with certain issues at the moment, and when we have learned what He has for us, He will move us on to the next. Just because someone is still using electricity does not make him a hypocrite. Freedom from Babylon is a process that Yahweh intends to use to teach us many forgotten truths. Like Yahshua, his disciples, and the prophets before them, we will have to prove our faith by being willing to go to jail, suffer, and possibly even die for what we believe. Yahshua and Paul and the other apostles proved themselves in this. Few people are willing to die for a lie.

Edited by - Caleb on 08 May 2003 00:38:11
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Junior Member

United Kingdom
24 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  04:19:20  Show Profile
Guys, we are all human. Let's try to get along despite our differences. If I said anything offensive, I do much apologise.

Caleb, if you look at that website I pointed out, that will show where my position on Daniel 9 comes from. I don't mean from the website but from the hebrew text it uses from the Tanakh.

Lewis, I never said that 1 Kings 7:23 has the definition of Pi. All I said was that there was a way to work out Pi from the text. Unfortunately there is faith and belief in science as we know it, but people don't call it such. You will see this in the fact that there is no such thing as an unbiased scientist. He has his own theory that he wants to prove. It can be seen in the difference between creation scientists and evolution scientists. They will look at the same thing and come out with different conclusions. Why? Because one has a bias towards a created universe by a creator, and the other has a bias to chaos (for lack of a better word) where things just happen by themselves.

Caleb, all those references you gave about blood they can be challenged.

Gen 3:21. You don't know which animal it came from and the text says nothing about blood being shed, sin being atoned for or forgiven. That's about what the text says and what it doesn't say.

Gen 4. Once again, nothing is said about blood. Nothing says that this offering had anything to do with atonement or anything like that. The word that is translated "offering" in the hebrew is "minchah" meaning a gift. The strongs hebrew dictionary puts it like this:

minchah min-khaw’; from an unused root meaning to apportion, i.e. bestow; a donation; euphemistically, tribute; specifically a sacrificial offering (usually bloodless and voluntary):

This is more likely a thankful offering, giving Yahweh their best. It may have been more of a heart issue rather than the fact that there was no blood.

Gen 9:5 What is the context of this verse talking about? Blood. True. Does it have anything to do with sacrifice? No. The next verse may shed some light where it talks about murder. This verse just shows the accountability that man and beast has for the blood, for the life. Where is sin and atonement? Nowhere.

Exo 12 and 13. This one surprised me. If you look throughout all of these chapters you will notice that there is NOTHING concerning sin and atonement. Blood was there. I will not say you are wrong. But I won't say this is all about blood. This is about the judgment of the Lord against Egypt, by smiting the firstborn. You ask when was the passover fulfilled, but it wasn't a prophecy. According to these verses it happened there in Egypt and it become a memorial of something that happened there in Egypt. The simple reading of the verses will show that.

You are right about Exodus, where there is blood and also oil.

Leviticus, yes most of the sacrifices involve blood, but not all, as you know. But as you say (and are right) blood is in most of the offerings.

Numbers 35, I've read it. Have you made a mistake?

I don't see the relevancy of 1 Chronicles 28:3 (David) or a lot of those following verses.

Yes, blood is important. That's why we shouldn't kill. A lot of sacrifices involve blood. I think you mean Zech 9:11, not Zech 9:9. You will notice that this prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. Verse 10 hasn't happened yet. It should happen around the same time as verse 9.

BatKol can deal with the rest of your informative post.

Because of the way this conversation has gone in the past, because of the accusations that flew about and the personal attacks (as I say, if I did any, I do apologise) I feel reluctant to put anymore. It was kinda hurtful to be called a pretender, plus it just feels like we are all just brick walls speaking to each other, me included. I'm not growing from this conversation. Should I carry on, or should I not? There is nothing in this conversation that is enlightening me or benefiting anyone else. If that is true, then I'll just sign off.

Enjoy the rest of the conversation, guys. Do try to remain peaceful. Christians believe in peace. Those who don't believe in the new testament know that YHWH is a Mighty One of peace. Don't waste your energies fighting, but I pray to the Most High that you all grow towards his wisdom.
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Regular Member

Antigua and Barbuda
27 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  08:07:10  Show Profile
I'm with you amenyahu. There is no edification here at all (to use a new testament term). I don't like personal attacks either. If I have done so, I likewise apologize. I don't appreciate being called names either (Judaizer), when all I am doing is quoting and agreeing with YHWH's word.

I don't see any point in discussing YHWH's word when those I'm trying to discuss it with refer to it in disparaging ways ("your law", "death march", etc.). It sounds too "Pauline" for my taste.

I'm not out to convince anyone of anything. I think BK brought up a great topic for discussion, to wit: applying Torah to our situation of being in bondage and likewise it being the solution to get out of bondage. I can't see where this thread is advancing that discussion. The Torah stands on it's own and people either accept it or they don't. The Torah is stronger than I am and it will stand until heaven and earth pass according to the new testament, so it doesn't need me to defend it (although I gladly do).

Accusations flying left and right do not advance the goals of learning. I don't have time to be in this pissing match so therefore, I too am out. I wish nobody any ill will, only wish that Israel would come to repentance so we can move on to the second exodus and the New Covenant whereby the Torah is on the heart of the people (it's obviously not happened here yet) and where no more shall people try to teach each other to know YHWH for they will all know Him from the least to greatest of them (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

Amenyahu, you said christians believe in peace. Looking throughout history over the past 2000 years, I would beg to differ with you. It doesn't appear that they bring peace, but a sword. Revelation 6:4 comes to mind. Not an attack, just a personal observation. So with that, I'm out of this discussion guys. Take care and....

Be well,

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True North
Advanced Member

163 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  09:47:04  Show Profile
Exegesis may be offended here (spelling and literacy too).

Look again at the subject of blood. Adam is cut off (disobediance) a way is instituted for reconciliation (Torah) by inference, a shedding of blood (Calebs' animal sacrifice inference and by logic and context, blood).

The context, Life is in the blood. Is adam a name, not according to Gen 5:2 ...called their name adam. Your Hebrew lessons show a construct of the alef and the root dam = blood.

They had life and life was in the blood and they (adam and eve) were the exact image and likeness (damuth). From a minute partical (aphar) of the adamah. Eve was from the tselem (a cell, an aphar) of adam. I can spell it out more clear but it won't match your dumbed down exegesis training especially for adamah. Dam, damuth, adam, adamah, tselem. Look again and know that Jastro first claimed adamah is bloods.

Put it together, an exact duplication in up dominion...and the result is coercion. One ego over another with the strongest on top. A deception, a distortion of emet, a beguiling (nachash = serpent).

Blood is the basic foundation and building block of the whole scenario. Ex 12 ...when I see the blood, I will pass over ...

There's more if you're interested...
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Advanced Member

735 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  10:06:29  Show Profile
Shalom Caleb:

Caleb: Bat and AmenYahu, please forgive me for my part in this, for I know that some of what I said came across as a personal attack, and this was not my intention. My prayer is that you will know the "freedom of the glory of the children of Elohim".

BatKol: No worries. I never took anything you said personally and I knew it was not your intention.
You perfectly sum up what I believe we all want regardless of our positions on each other's views:
That we will come to TRUELY know the freedom of the glory of the children of Elohim. I doubt anyone here, after seeing how each has passionatly presented their views, would question the sincerety of each other's yearning to know YHWH and find his Truth. This is what I have gathered so far and it is not a bad thing if we can all get past the shock of our diferences. We can sucessfully study the original proposition regardless of our diferences on these other issues.

Caleb:Bat, I'm afraid it was your original reply to me that turned your good question into a spitting match (or worse). If it was cooperation you were looking for, this was not the place to denounce Yahshua and the Renewed Covenant.

BatKol: Your introduction to my question was full of references to Yahshua and the NT angle. The request was a study concerning disconnecting from "the Beast" using ONLY Torah. I felt a simple explaination of why I did not believe in Yahushua as he is portayed in the NT was fair to you so you could understand WHY I worded the first post the way I did. I agree we got off topic quickly. That problem has been fixed by the admin correctly re-starting the thread. You can view my newest post there where I hope you will contribute. I have no problem discussing Torah and our current bondage, with each having their own personal views on other issues. Where I link our current bondage in Torah is Lev 26, Deut 28. It is from these verses where I enter TaNaCK in Torah context, going forward on the foundation of noting being added to or taken away from Torah. When you accuse me of wrong for referencing the prophets or other parts of TaNaCK is probably because of my error of not being a bit more clearer in my wording. I reference TaNaCK in context to the original study via Lev 26 and Deut 28. Looking back I should have said "only TaNaCK" and I appologize if that threw you off..I failed at making this clearer and many side issues sprung up. I will address each of your claims from your last post so that we can be clear and put our diferences to rest. We have gone back and forth on these issues quite a bit and it seems we have condensed our differences down to a good few worth addressing. We can agree to disagee after this, and that is fine with me. It will not have any effect on the progress of our study if we choose to go with this proposition: Disconnecting from bondage using ONLY TaNaCK.

Caleb: Now can't you see where you lose credibility by quoting Moses about not adding to scripture, yet accept the many books written after his death as equally a part of scripture? Were you to say that only the first five books were scripture, at least that is a consistent position based on what Moses wrote in Deuteronomy. But to use this against the Renewed Covenant is hitting below the belt.

BatKol: I believe this is because I failed to word my original question properly as I detailed in my response above. I should have said ONLY TaNaCK. Again when studying Lev 26 and Deut 28 you are forced to go to TaNaCK. I see my error in this. The NT would have not even have needed to be brought into the discussion if I would have worded my question properly...

Caleb: The way I see it: Israel broke the covenant and Yahshua renewed it (as Jeremiah prophecied).

BatKol: We totally disagree on the fulfillment of Yer 31:31-34 and that this brit hadesha is the NT.

Caleb: Didn't SOMEONE have to fix what Israel so horribly botched?

BatKol: Israel must fix themselves what they botched. Nobody can do it for us. YHWH says return to me and I will return to you. Israel and Yahudah must do this and no human sacrifice can achieve this. Yahshua died 2,000 years ago and the two houses are still not joined. I believe this is because the man Yahushua was paganized in the NT. His original message of calling the lost Israelites back to Torah was perfectly in line with the plight of lost Israel, his being a godman sacrifice was not. I believe this was added in by our current ROMAN Nicene captors to difuse a two house revival and keep lost Israel in paganism AND from getting back under Torah. We could start a seperate thread for this concept and may find that there is much we agree on. Yahshua being god-in-the-flesh is a topic that deserves it's own section..

Caleb: Hosea and Jeremiah show that Yahweh divorced Israel, and this kind of thing doesn't get fixed easily - certainly not by mere mortals such as you and I.

BatKol: There is much debate over weather Israel really got divorced. I have my own personal take on this and it has to do with the lost tribes being cast out in to the nations and being considered "not my people". We may be Israelites by blood, but if we were born in exile into a family or society not governed by Torah, then we tecnically not "covenant" Israel. This is where we marry YHWH anew by accepting the terms of citizenship of the nation of Israel which is the Torah.. This can happen because we were not tecnically "Israel" according to Torah. Our fathers did not teach us Torah, their father's father did not teach them Torah, etc... The tribal link to Torah has effectively been broken..Hosea prophecied that this would happen for the lost 10 tribes of Israel while they are in bondage.. And so it is.

Caleb: Bat, I tried to genuinely address the last question you asked me about the shedding of blood, but you dismissed this as well. I did not ignore your question, I tried to show you the bigger picture, which I believe is Yahweh's perspective. I will will try to show this one more time:

Genesis 3:21 Yahweh made clothing from animal skins to "cover" Adam and Eve after they sinned. This involved shedding blood

BatKol: This is the NT mantra and the verses that tell the story in Genesis support no such theory.. You are making presumptions. Show me where this involved the shedding of blood. The verse you mention is Genesis 3:21. The original hebrew says YHWH "Asah"/"made" skins not sacrificed. The word sacrifice or blood apprears no where in the verse you quote... Look at it this way: YWHW who just got done miraculosly creating the universe, had to kill in order to provide skins?? With all of the allegorical verbage of the story it blows me away that one wants to read sacrifice into this account, especially since the words blood and sacrifice DO NOT appear in the verses. Again, this is what christianity wants to project into the verse. It is essential to the blood cult position that blood needed to be spilled to "cover" the sins of the garden. This is the oral traditions of the christians.

Caleb: Genesis 4 Abel's blood sacrifice is accepted. Cain wanted to worship Yahweh his own way, and was rejected.

BatKol: Again, you are assuming that Abel's Minchah is a blood sacrifice. Read the strong's definiton of Minchah (note the part that says usually bloodless and voluntary) :

mincha#770;h#8233;min-khaw'#8233;From an unused root meaning to apportion, that is, bestow; a donation; euphemistically tribute; specifically a sacrificial offering (usually bloodless and voluntary):—gift, oblation, (meat) offering, present, sacrifice.#8233;

Ge 4:3 And it cometh to pass at the end of days that Cain bringeth from the fruit of the ground a present(MNChH) to YHWH; 4 and Abel, he hath brought, he also, from the female firstlings of his flock, even from their fat ones(ChLB); and YHWH looketh unto Abel and unto his present(MNChT),

Cain did not bring FIRSTfruits, whereas Abel offered a gift of FIRSTlings. This is why Abel's gift was accepted and Cain's wasn't, his was "fruit of the ground". Can't we take the words at their meaning and consider that perhaps Cain's present was not the top quailty fruit off of the vine but off of the ground? It has nothing to do with blood. Fact is, looking at the next references of the Hebrew words I put in parenthesis above helps clarify. Here is the next reference to MNChH:

Ge 32:13 And he lodged there that same night; and took of that which came to his hand a present(MNChH) for Esau his brother;

Surely we wouldn't say that Yaqob sacrificed to Esau, would we? No, the animals were alive and were a present just as the Hebrew and English says.

As a matter of fact, MNChH is NEVER used to describe a blood sacrifice.

To go on about blood any more is pointless because as you can see by me comments above we are 180 degrees apart concerning the two verses in Genesis you listed. You can see from this response how I would address the rest of the blood issues.

Caleb: You never responded to Isaiah 6 which shows that those with eyes will not "see". The sacrificial system was a shadow-picture of the real. You don't have to agree with me on this, but you do have to come to terms with how hugely significant blood is to Yahweh, and seek a reason for why this is.

BatKol: Isaiah 6 could be applied to the false doctrine of believing that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.. Anyone can insert thier own accusation against another by using this verse. What do you do with the many verses wherein YHWH says he does not desire blood of sacrifices. This in itself could be another thread.

Caleb: I know of no one (including myself) who claims to have completely escaped the clutches of Babylon, but I know of some who are very serious about doing so.

BatKol: Agree. What needs to be recognised is that one can be serious about serving YHWH while also NOT using extrapolations of the NT concerning Lev 26 and Deut 28.

Caleb: Just because someone is still using electricity does not make him a hypocrite.

Batkol: It does if a person trashes others for ALL CAP contracts while still engaging in CONTRACTS.
We should not trash anyone, but come and reason together. Pride and arrogance kills HaRuach. When I consider the mess we are in it is humbling. Let one can claim to be CONTRACT free while engaging in CONTRACTS. The admin is correct that there should be peace. Let none here act in arrogance and pride because it is a truth that pride cometh before destruction.

Caleb: Few people are willing to die for a lie.

BatKol: Unfortunately history proves this to be untrue. For a most recent example, how about all the dead soldiers fighting in the wars of the USCORP. How about the many who died refusing to acknowledge Jezuz as GOD, and Messiah when faced by the catholic sword? Do these people count in your above statement? People die all the time for, AND because of lies.. Opinion: HaSatan cares not how he gets blood and death, as long as he gets the results. The more dead Israelites or potential Israelites the better for his mission..

Shalom Alechaim,

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Advanced Member

735 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  10:30:54  Show Profile
Caleb, I stated I would address each point in your last post and I realized when reading back my response that I did not fulfill this statment. I do think that the general "gist" of my response does give you an idea of how I stand on most of your points.

One thing I think is important that I would like to add is that if it was not for the NT and Yahushua (my version of what and who I think he was) I would not have answered the call to get under Torah. Even though the NT has many errors, this precept of lost Israel returning to Torah held up to any proving. I don't need it's salvation program of human blood sacrifice, but Yahushua's call for lost Israel to return to Torah is all I needed. I am thankful to Yahushua for this.

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Advanced Member

198 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  16:56:21  Show Profile
The new thread, "Using Torah," may prove more more amicable and more informative. I note a distinct difference in approach and attitude among the members posting there, from this one.

Be Well,
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Advanced Member

353 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2003 :  20:25:17  Show Profile
Why are we here? How did we get here? And, where are we going? Finally, who are we?
Everything else is filler to help answer these questions, including obeying the rules of Father's House.
To even begin to truely do the ten words {commands}, one must have already been delivered from Egypt. {The world system and its way of thinking}.
Doubt this? Please read the second verse of Exodus 20.
Soooooooo, for todays age, the house of bondage includes using a ss#, presenting our name as an ALL CAPITAL lettered thing-the alter ego, who can function within the world system-matrix.
Thou shall not bear false witness, i.e. who are you?
So really, this exercise is a school for info on how Yahuweh's children can leave Egypt and worship Yahuweh in Spirit and Truth.
Can One serve Yahuweh within the matrix? Somewhat, for sure. But, the U.S. corp., controlled by Rome, says, "we created your identity, and you have agreed to obey our law". "We have your signature on file. {ha-satan is allowed in the heavenly court, {Job was written before the torah}, and he waves the signature card, irs form, a multitude of things, in Yahuweh's face, and says I Will go take more of your disobedient children into my kingdom, as I walk to and fro throught the land". When the children of Israel cry out for repentance is involved here...Yahuweh sends a deliverer. At extremely special times, a Deliverer. Yahushua was called the "godman". Well We all are, Adam was a son of Yahuweh, formed by the Creative power of the Everliving. Yahushua was crucified for making and acting on this very Truth. Why? The Truth will set One free. hasatan says, I created you for my kingdom. To experience passover, is to be delivered from Egypt, oops, by the blood of a lamb. {Thanks torah, for mentioning the blood}. Since we are in Egypt again, and are 3500 years late for Moses the deliverer, to appear, we are screaming again, Daddy, We want out of here!!! One man on these posts said briefly "no godman is coming to the rescue this time". Well for the few of us...they overcame by the blood of the lamb, and the word of their own testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death. Caleb and Yahushua [Joshua] had the testimony last time. They made it into the promised land. {Not, the promised state of Being}. Caleb today, would travel about His Father's kingdom in a modern conveyance with His Father's license written on his heart. For He is also a son of Yahuweh, and acts like it. What transformation could occur to allow One to be so courageous today? Obedience, love, forgiveness. And being able to hear the answers {partly} to the four question listed earlier, questions that act as a splinter in One's mind. {Matrix movie quote}. Yahushua plainly stated that the Children do not pay tribute tax, i.e. irs and ss tax. Rome agrees, and has, in court cases. Learned men tell me that yahu in ancient hebrew means, "I Will Be"... shuah is to the effect of salvation. "I Will Be Salvation". I'll wear that name, especially if given to Me. Given.
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Advanced Member

209 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2003 :  19:37:06  Show Profile
Dear Bat and Amen,

Sorry to be AWOL for a few days, but I was busy with the ecclesia working up some abatements we will serve to the local goon squads on Monday. Three abatements for three brothers (in Messiah) on three separate issues - traffic ticket, dog license, and building permit - all on the same day. We are going to "lay down the Law" of Yahweh with a bang here. Incidentally, two of these issues seem to be too "trivial" to be worth the bother, but these are just the kinds of issues to "practice" on. Who wants their first experience with the beast to be when their kids are being taken away or their house foreclosed on or they're accused of some some "crime" with real time behind bars as the penalty?

Here is what I believe is the fundamental difference in approach between the two sides of the debate in this thread. Because I regard the B'rit Hadashah to be scripture, I am accused of adding to the Torah/Tanakh. Yet issues such as prophecy and blood have revealed your appraoch to be very minimalist. Adding to and taking away from Torah are equally condemned, so there is at least an equal possibility that you all are in violation of the exact command you accuse me with. When it comes to discussing issues from the Tanakh only, I would submit that I am simply seeing a deeper meaning than you are. This is not "adding" anything, but seeing what is there but not obvious from the first reading.

The blood issue provided a perfect example of how this works. I knew that blood was a theme from the beginning because I could "read between the lines" to see that if there were animal skins the clear implication was that an animal was killed. You are correct that the text says nothing about blood, but this is not enough to prove I am missing the basic storyline. Then along comes True North and basically knocks this one out of the park, demonstrating from the Hebrew that blood is there in a BIG way. So while I saw below the surface, I remained ignorant of the deeper level. The beauty is that the same truth is revealed in each level, confirming the word of Yahweh over and over. Yet this can stay hidden to those not open to searching for deeper meaning. You admit that deeper or multiple meanings are there in Torah, but so far your position is based only on what is written plainly.

You do not have to agree with what I see, but you should at least acknowledge that I am not "adding" anything in the above example. And if what I see is correct, then you are "taking away" when you deny it. Now consider the implications of some related statements of yours. You said that the Jews added to Torah through the Talmud and the Christians take away from it through the New Testament. I agree with this, but with a clarification further down. However, you need to decide which "crime" we are guilty of. Are we adding to or taking away? You have actually accused us of both. What I believe this shows is that you use whichever accusation will defend your position at the moment, rather than having a consistent position that explains where we have "erred". Then consider what you say about Ephraim. If the NT is as bad as you say, then Ephraim has been wasting his time for 2000 years. One minute you condemn the NT as nothing but pagan myths, but then your acknowledge that there is SOME good in it.

Here is the real problem, and I alluded to it in my early post but you did not see it that time. The church has been teaching some pretty big whoppers for at least the past 150 years, and using isolated verses out of the NT to back them up. You all have quoted these verses, assuming that they mean exactly what the church says they mean. Were you to stop listening to the harlot church, and seek to understand the B'rit Hadashah on your own, you would find it radically different from what you have been told. Not all Christians on this forum agree with my view, but I never under any circumstances use the B'rit Hadashah as an excuse to take away from the Torah. This is why I responded so positively to your initial post. I do not see a single teaching anywhere in the NT that does not have its basis in the Tanakh. Even the so-called "pagan myths" have their roots there.

In a week, The Matrix Reloaded comes out. Ask yourself, what is so compelling about the first movie's storyline? Or another way to phrase it is: why do all truly great stories have a "Messiah" figure? Neo is such an obvious parallel to Yahshua that everyone sees this, but why couldn't they leave something so "overused" out of the movie? Couldn't it have been just as good without a Messiah? The answer is NO. There is something in our very being that resonates with this idea, and it has nothing to do with cultural programming or any other excuse people use to dismiss it. It is part of the Law of Yahweh written on our heart.

In the same way that all great stories must plagiarize Yahweh's story, so all religions must do the same as well. Without that seed of truth, no one would be drawn to them. This can be difficult to sort out, since God's work has been copied and distorted in so many different ways over the millenia. The basic thing you need to answer for yourself is: what teachings of the New Testament do I object to? If Yahshua and Yahweh are the same (as it teaches) then you can hardly object to worshipping Yahweh. So instead of attacking false church doctrines, and instead of drawing wrong conclusions that are simply not there in the text, find those teachings that specifically conflict with Torah. I believe if you made such a list, you would find that half of it would be misunderstandings of what the NT is actually saying, and the other half would be a failure to see the deeper truths in the Torah. People who WANT to find contradictions will find them, but those who want to know the mind of Yahweh will move deeper by considering the possibility that His word, while confusing at times, is perfectly consistent once rightly understood.

Again, you do not have to agree with me here, but consider the following issues that relate directly to your original question, and consider whether my view offers a fuller answer than yours or not. First, let's look at Yahweh's timeline. No one disputes that Daniel's "seven times" is 2520 years. Add this to when Daniel was alive and the earliest time you arrive at is what we call the "twentieth century". This should be enough by itself to prove that the reunification of the two houses was not to occur in Yahshua's day. You credit Him with the "right" message, but miss the possibility that He could have been simply laying the necessary groundwork for a later fulfillment.

But look at Ezekiel's timeline in chapter 4. He lies on his side 390 days for Ephraim and 40 days for Judah. Now were either house in captivity for this amount of time? No! Oops, we've just uncovered another "error" in the Tanakh. Time to stone Ezekiel for being a false prophet, or time to burn our Tanakh. Or is it? Leviticus 26 (one of your favorites) tells us this will be multiplied seven times if they do not accept their punishment. Of course Ephraim never came close to repenting. 7 x 390 = 2730. So this is the true length of Ephraim's captivity in the nations. What happened to Ephraim 390 years after the Assyrians sacked the Northern Kingdom (728-721 BC)? Nothing! What happened 2730 years after? That brings us right down to today. So now we have two witnesses that Ephraim's captivity could not possibly have ended in Yahshua's day - Yahweh never intended it too. And Ezekiel is the same guy who tells us in chapter 37 that it WILL end and they will be reunited with Judah.

However, there are some other clues as well. Another place from the prophets (and I can find the reference if you need) gives us reason to look to a partial fulfillment after two cylces of punishment. 2 x 390 = 780 which brings us right up to the time of Paul's ministry to the "gentiles". What few realize is that almost every time the NT says "gentiles", it is really referring to Ephraim. Read it this way and you will see that Paul was especially aware of the need to find "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". So this was the beginning, and indeed it would be Ephraim who would embrace this thing called "Christianity". Of course still being in captivity they soon moved away from the B'rit Hadashah's clear teaching into "Christened" forms of pagan worship. Most Christians will defend their pagan traditions to the death, but the main point is that they have no basis from the Renewed Covenant itself.

Hosea 6:1-3 contains yet another confirmation of the above. It says, "after two days He will revive us; in the third day He will raise us up." That's 2000+ years right there again. Verse three then speaks of "the latter and former rain", alluding to two separate times in which this takes place. Is it not "coincidental" that those two times would be almost exactly "two days" apart? Consider that Daniel's 70 weeks (by my reading) point to Yahshua's death and two times 390 years of captivity point to Paul's ministry as the former rain. Then 2520 years plus 70 for the end of Judah's captivity and 2730 years for the end of Ephraim's captivity both bring us to today as the time for the latter rain. Does this not give you a glimpse of just how carefully Yahweh spelled out His plans in the Tanakh? Everything is to be proven by "two or three witnesses", and Yahweh consistently provides these in the scriptures, many times just in the Tanakh. The B'rit Hadashah is usually the third witness. Is this another coincidence?

You made the claim early on that the NT was written by the very people we are trying to escape from. I heard this first from a friend who dismisses ALL scripture on this basis. I considered this view, for that is the only way to determine the truth of something. It doesn't take long to see just how preposterous this is. Every instruction on escaping from Babylon that has ever done me any good has come from scripture. The B'rit Hadashah is especially rich when it comes to this. You do need to ignore the "Christians" who misread Romans 13 and I Peter 2 and "render unto Caesar", but overall what it teaches is as deadly to the establishment as anything ever written. The authors all went to prison or death for their defiance of Rome and the powers of their day. You simply cannot read it with an open mind and conclude that this is written by those trying to enslave us. It is those writing church doctrine that deliberately twists the NT and tells us how to "interpret" it who are working for Babylon. You MUST see this difference.

How about we turn this around for a moment. What is the "source" of the teaching you are following? Who are the major players of the Babylonian system, broadly speaking? Masons, Jesuits, Talmudic Jews, Rhodes' Scholars, CFR, etc. Most respected "Christian" teachers are Masons for example. So who plays the opposite side in their divide and conquer strategy? Talmudic Jews of course. Is it surprising that denial of Yahshua as the Messiah is the very top of their agenda? What may come as a surprise is that they are quite happy to have a bunch of you running around denouncing the Talmud and denouncing Yahshua at the same time. If you dig deep enough, you will find that it is your brand-spanking new "Torah-only" teaching that was started by the very people you are trying to escape. These same people work overtime to get you and the "Christian" church to buy their pack of lies regarding the B'rit Hadashah. I have already pointed out that I too believed these lies for far too long, but when the light turned on it was because I finally started believing what was staring at me from the pages of the B'rit Hadashah. I had just never been able to "see" it before.

The mind is a strange beast, as it will turn a black dog into a white cat if it has been told to do often enough. We open ourselves to this when we first read threats to our well-being like "sell all you have, give to the poor, and come follow me." We cannot accept this, so we soak up the pastor's comforting assurance that these words do not apply to us. Soon we believe that words mean the exact opposite of what they say. The prime example is this idea that Yahshua did not come to "abolish" the Law, but that He came to "fulfill" it. Almost every Christian I know thinks this means that the Law was "done away with". Now can you tell a difference between "abolish" and "done away with"? I can't, but this obvious lie is fundamental to the theology of each and every church in the town where you are. You can't find a pastor who will even consider otherwise. I have talked with pastors in an attempt to achieve just a slight reduction in the contempt with which they hold the Torah, only to earn the same level of contempt for myself as a result. How can EVERYONE believe something that is the exact OPPOSITE of what is written plainly in the book? Satan and his minions have obviously been working overtime and having great success. What I am urging you to consider is that you have not yet read the B'rit Hadashah free of the distortions taught so consistently in churches.

Your take on whether we are "covenant" Israel neglects to take into account the current move of Yahweh. Where do you think your interest in Torah came from? Nobody except a handful of Jews have had the slightest interest in Torah for the past 2000 years. Then all of a sudden people like you and I start popping up out of the woodwork. What is going on? Like Neo in the Matrix, do you really think you are in control of your life? While we have not been taught Torah by our fathers, just as Hosea says, still the lingering issue of a broken covenant is passed down to us. Otherwise, what is there for us to join ourselves to? Is another Moses starting from scratch? Believe it or not, this has EVERYTHING to do with your original question on this thread. It has to do with both the plan and character of Yahweh, who is "a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto a thousand generations of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

You know what our present bondage is based on: contracts. When we sign up for a government "benefit", we get linked into all sorts of hidden promises we had no idea we were making. If we get dragged into court, the judge is not going to enforce "Law", he is simply going to enforce that contract. So we are presently under unjust, hidden contracts or covenants. What is the answer? To "remember" the covenants that have been "hidden" all these centuries because our fathers have not passed them down to us. We are very much under and a part of those covenants. It was you and me, in the loins of our forefathers, that Yahweh divorced. Otherwise our being in the loins of Abraham counts for nothing and we really should throw away all scripture beyond the first five books. You have to get a glimpse of the magnificence of Yahweh's plan, which spans millenia when we have trouble thinking about next year.

I see you trying to make your Messiah-less scenario work by reworking the rules in some key places, but at some point you really do start "taking away" from the scriptures. In Hosea, where Yahweh called Ephraim "not my people", He also promised to call them "my people" again. Who does this refer to if not us? The broken covenant must be made right, renewed, by someone worthy to do it. We cannot simply show up and opt-in like nothing happened over the past 3500 years. This really is the religion of Cain. It is only when we accept the true and just "hidden contracts" we already have with Yahweh through our forefathers that we will be released from the fraudulent and unjust hidden contracts we presently have with Babylon. Nothing we can do will make up for all those centuries of disobedience. Yahweh is a just Elohim, and SOMEONE must pay the penalties he laid out in the Torah. I sure don't want that responsibility. Do you?

Incidentally, not all contracts bind us into further hidden promises. I know of no situation where someone was thrown in jail because of a hidden obligation caused by an electric bill. Bank accounts and driver's licenses are a very different story. Using prison for punishment is actually against the Law (see the Maxims), but we agree to it when we sign up for bank accounts and various licenses. We agree to give our kids to the beast when we apply for a marriage license. We can strive for zero contracts, but some contracts are far more harmful than others, and are therefore more critical to deal with first.

You claim that history proves me wrong about people dying for a lie, but I think you missed my point. No one was telling the disciples to believe in Yahshua or die. Quite the contrary, so the Inquisition does not fit. A closer parallel would be the present wars of the USCORP, except that Yahshua lacked the propaganda machine that convinces soldiers to be "patriotic". Further, military training involves a form of mind-control that teaches you to obey orders without questioning your superiors. When Yahshua died, the disciples were running scared. They were not fired up with something like patriotism, nor did they have commanders who kept them in line. Yahshua actually taught the exact opposite. So the real question is: what changed them? Why were these same men later willing to die for this fellow whose body they stole out of a grave in order to fool the world with the resurrection? It simply doesn't add up. Lie or not, something made them believe with all their hearts that it was real. That doesn't happen when you know where the body is buried.
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