| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| berkano |
Posted - 08 Apr 2004 : 01:27:55
Oyez and Greetings All:
I thought about posting this under "holy days" thread but changed my mind realizing it could be a lengthy discussion all by itself.
I posted the following at another forum and I feel it is very relevant to some of the discussions here.
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I would like to submit some more statements and scriptures regarding the "lunar sabbath" for comment.
I have researched a bit more regarding the lunar sabbath I posited earlier. Some would contend that the modern Jewish calendar is the same calendar kept by the ancient Hebrews under Moses, and the sabbath falls on Saturday. I digress from this upon an inspection of the scripture. Although I have not been able yet to fully examine and ponder the hundreds of relevant passages, I have found enough so far that indicate that no current calendar in use can properly account the sabbath days as commanded by Yahweh. I know for certain what the sabbath is NOT. It is neither Sunday nor Saturday. It is not reckoned by heathen calendars, but rather by a pure lunar calendar.
For instance the Book of Numbers gives solid proof that the beginning of each ancient Hebrew month was definitely marked by the day of the new moon:
"And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no
customary work. For you it is a day of blowing the
trumpets. You shall offer a burnt offering as a sweet
aroma to the LORD: one young bull, one ram, and seven
lambs in their first year, with out blemish. Their
grain offering shall be fine flour mixed with oil:
three-tenths of an ephah for the bull, two-tenths for
the ram, and one-tenth for each of the seven lambs;
also one kid of the goats as a sin offering, to make
atonement for you; besides the burnt offering with
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
its grain offering for the New Moon, the regular
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
burnt offering with its grain offering, and their
drink offerings, according to their ordinance, as a
sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD
[Numbers 29:1-6]
The context of this above passage clearly shows the first day of the month is marked by the new moon, as per the parts highlighted with upward chevrons [^^^]. This first day of the month is a day of doing no customary work. This same offering is to be offered at the beginning of all months, each beginning day being a new moon day:
At the beginnings of your months you shall present
a burnt offering to the LORD: two young bulls, one
ram, and seven lambs in their first year, with out
blemish; three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as
a grain offering, mixed with oil, for the one ram;
and one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour, mixed with
oil, as a grain offering for each lamb, as a burnt
offering of sweet aroma, an offering made by fire
to the LORD. Their drink offering shall be half a
hin of wine for a bull, one-third of a hin for a ram,
and one- fourth of a hin for a lamb; this is the burnt
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
offering for each month through out the months of the year.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[Numbers 28:11-14]
Clearly the new moon marks the first day of each month, and clearly each new moon day is an offering day of worship, or the first sabbath day of the month.
And the new moon day is a holy day as is the sabbath:
Thus says the LORD God: “The gate way of the inner
court that faces to ward the east shall be shut the
six working days; but on the Sabbath it shall be
opened, and on the day of the New Moon it shall be
opened. The prince shall enter by way of the
vestibule of that gate way from the out side, and
stand by the gate post. The priests shall prepare
his burnt of fering and his peace offerings. He shall
worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall
go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening.
Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the
entrance to this gateway be fore the LORD on the
Sabbaths and the New Moons.
[Ezekiel 46:1-3]
The new moon days are days of worship at the gates of the temple!
And notice that God reckons time once more by the moons and sabbaths:
And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to
another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh
shall come to worship be fore Me,” saith the LORD.
[Isaiah 66:23]
This passage declares each New Moon day to be a day of worship, which means not a day of work.
The new moon day of the seventh month is clearly declared a sabbath day by Yahweh:
Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘In the seventh
month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
sabbath rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy
^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and
you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD.’
[Leviticus 23:24-24]
The first day of the seventh month here is declared a "sabbath rest" on which no customary work shall be done. This is the same first day of the seventh month that is declared to be marked by the new moon in the quote above [Numbers 29:1-6]. Thus the first day of that month is always measured by the sighting of the new moon, and it is always a sabbath rest day. That would make the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of each month, sabbaths, accounting six days of work between each. The Roman calendar cannot account for this because the weeks are independent of the months, whereas with the ancient Hebrew calendar the first day of the first week begins on the new moon each month, as borne out in the scriptures quoted above. Since the first day of each month is a sabbath, then automatically the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days are automatically and easily figured as sabbaths. In ancient Israel the priests had the duty to watch the moon carefully and made calculations just in case the anticipated new moon day clouded the moon, to declared the correct first day of the month since the length of the lunar cycle can vary from a few hours to a day from month to month.
So there is much more to the lunar sabbath theory than just theory. As I had believed before that current calendars cannot account for the sabbath because of the seven-day week that has no relationship to the calendar, we can see that the weeks can be marked by the cycle of the moon in the sky, each month, and not beforehand, as lunation varies from time-to-time.
Notes: the first new moon day of the month was not a "seventh day" but kept as a sabbath rest, nonetheless. Following this day are four "seventh days," so that there are at least five sabbath rests each month. This seems contiguous to the Shuwai sabbaths of the syriac calendar of the old Syrian church, which to my knowledge is no longer observed, but instead held up like a cultural icon of a bygone era.
The truth is out there. I believe I know what it is NOT, but knowing what it IS requires something more convincing than just words written by men on paper.
-- Berkano
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For peace to prevail:
the means must sanctify the end.
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True Words: http://word.true.ws |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Linc |
Posted - 11 Nov 2006 : 02:23:53
After reading this article on the Hope of Israel website, I have no more objections to the Lunar Sabbath.
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/philosabbath.html
Based on the evidence that Philo the Jew, a good representative of Judaism at the time of Jesus, kept a Lunar Sabbath, and further more, based on the explanation given by Philo, that the new moons are not counted when counting the six days toward the next sabbath, I now believe the lunar sabbath is the truth.
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/philosabbath.html
This has the consequence that Pentecost would actually happen 53 or so days, by modern reckoning, after Passover.
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/philosabbath.html
This in turn leads to the conclusion that Jubilee cycles are every fifty years, so that the second of two jubilee years would be year 100. Whereas under the weekly seventh day saturday sabbath, the omer count would indicate that the second of two jubilee years would be year 99. This in turn means that after a jubilee year there will be SIX instead of five working years before the next land sabbath.
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/philosabbath.html
Hallelujah. Let all the brethren here read the article and see if they can explain away the evidence provided by Philo that the Jews of Jesus time did indeed keep sabbath by the Lunar calendar.
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/philosabbath.html
Then the real fight begins; do we count the sabbath from the local new moon, or the Jerusalem new moon? I say that we do it locally. Who needs international travel? If it is the sabbath at your location, you shouldn't be travelling. If it is the sabbath at the other airport, it will be shut down, which would stop your plane from taking off anyway. So in practice, local sabbaths aren't a problem at all. They can never be more than 12 hours out of sync anyway.
Linc |
| Linc |
Posted - 11 Nov 2006 : 02:14:04
quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
I offer proof that the calendar has never changed or been adjusted - what would you hold onto -a calendar that never needs adjustment or changes for the age -or a need for some alteration of time in the past to hold onto a calendar that needs adjustments every month and year because the heavens are off a bit.
So what did he mean when he said he changes times and seasons? |
| jambosas |
Posted - 22 Jan 2006 : 12:21:20
I offer proof that the calendar has never changed or been adjusted - what would you hold onto -a calendar that never needs adjustment or changes for the age -or a need for some alteration of time in the past to hold onto a calendar that needs adjustments every month and year because the heavens are off a bit. |
| jambosas |
Posted - 22 Jan 2006 : 12:16:35
The epic of creation tablet from 1500 BC is a copy of the story of creation - in it in Gen 1:5 the translation is not the first day or day 1 it is "became part of one cycle". This is from pros - Ashurbanipal Library British Museum London. Once again a translation that has words for day in that language but in the Hebrew text they copied the word day is not there or they would have used it. Because everyone assumes they meant day translations insert the word day - even the Jews. You would be dead wrong that the law would change - The law never changes as scripture says! to change the time would change the LAW. |
| Linc |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 08:42:29
quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
The true calendar has never changed, the law has never changed, and the simple daily view of the moon is exact!
I believe you are dead wrong in making this assumption.
The scriptures say "he changeth times and seasons". There is historical proof that he changed the calendar at the time of the exile, and again around the time the temple was destroyed.
Read this website for the evidence, which is found in the archaelogy of every single ancient civilization.
http://www.12x30.net |
| Linc |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 23:22:51
quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
I forgot to add that with the lunar calendar hard verses in scripture about dates, days, and time, are no longer hard to understand or account for except one (count 7 complete sabbaths and .... 50 days or the next day being the 50th day) but if you look at new wine being ready and wheat being harvested (wheat needs at least 90 days) 7 sabbaths plus 50 days fits? we have worked this issue good.
That is a good line of investigation. Unfortunately I don't think either of us have enough Hebrew and Greek to make a good case for it. Shall we come up with a sum of money, and pay a professional to exegete the relevant verses for us? |
| jambosas |
Posted - 05 Jan 2006 : 23:31:42
I forgot to add that with the lunar calendar hard verses in scripture about dates, days, and time, are no longer hard to understand or account for except one (count 7 complete sabbaths and .... 50 days or the next day being the 50th day) but if you look at new wine being ready and wheat being harvested (wheat needs at least 90 days) 7 sabbaths plus 50 days fits? we have worked this issue good. |
| jambosas |
Posted - 05 Jan 2006 : 23:06:05
I agree Berkano, except a law to follow from the CREATOR would be easy to follow - this is why the lunar concept works (I think this is why the moon is there). It rises 28 times every month (to the human eye) - 6 working periods and 1 rest. The long term lunar time is exact and it works everywhere (north and south) for every person anywhere on earth. The key that is ignored, and is a hard concept, is that the moon rise starts the period and as I have said before this way of time needs no adjustment. I know people here have not looked at this way of time because it requires a lot of time to observe this and log it to test it - but the fact that you can get a moon rise time today and look back 19 years and look this day up - it will be the same should intrest some people who look for facts and truth. The true calendar has never changed, the law has never changed, and the simple daily view of the moon is exact! Simple yes easy to confirm NO - you must go out and prove it day by day until you see the exactness of it. |
| stefree |
Posted - 05 Jan 2006 : 18:39:04
Berkano,
I recently read a book entitled "The Almost Forgotten Day" by Mark Finley and he wrote to the Astronomer Royal about whether the seventh day Sabbath (Saturday) had been changed or altered during the changes in the calendars throughout the years....I don't have the book with me but will paraphrase the response and try to get the exact qoute to you soon....the Astronomer Royal said that they are the official body for keeping track of time and that Saturday, the Biblical seventh day has been unchanged from the beginning of time as any change thereof roused the ire of the Jews....it is pretty convincing evidence.....the 72 Holy Day Sabbatical cycle of the Israelites is still applicable today...only we are the sacrifices (Romans 12:1)...I was glad to see that you noticed the Ezekiel text about the gate being open on the New Moon and Sabbath....on a personal note....when I became a Sabbath keeper (long before I had ever read this text) I noticed that both God & Jesus were present on the Sabbath (unlike my Sunday experience), and if you read a little further along, the only other time that the gate is opened is when a congregant makes a willing Thanksgiving
sacrifice....(Ezekiel 46:12)....hence further evidence that weare to give thanks for the mercy (the whole idea of both the O.T. & N.T. sacrifices) so graciously given to us by God. stefree |
| jambosas |
Posted - 01 Jan 2006 : 10:22:28
Trying to prove all things is not a bad use of time - you would not want to be observing something on someone elses (organization) word and calling it faith. If you can not ask and get an answer there is a problem - and if you ask they dont give an answer, they try to label you as trouble, or unwise, or not understanding of things. But the scripture is clear PROVE ALL THINGS AND LET NO MAN LEAD YOU DOWN THE WRONG PATH. If you dont know should you be doing it? It dont know the right time but I will follow something else? Or worst of all I do it because the Jews do it? If you know that it dose not work then that is definitly not the way to go (ie sat sabbath). |
| jambosas |
Posted - 01 Jan 2006 : 10:11:15
Back in this thread someone wanted proof that scripture talked about a 13th month - well here it is - at least the way I read it. Ezk chapters 1-8 started in the 5th year 4th month 5th day and the next date noted is 6th year 6th month 5th day with him sitting. During this period he was lying down on his side for 430 days? I cannot fit in 430 days between these two dates unless a 13th month is put in? what do you think? |
| berkano |
Posted - 01 Jan 2006 : 05:24:16
I have studied this issue in depth for a long time. It is clear to me that the Sabbath is not a calendar day at all. It is a principle. Calendars are all human devices.
The mind of the carnal man is looking for a day, a date, a word, an incantation, a statue, a paper, a leader, a weapon, a talisman, a charm, a miracle, or some magical thing to give him power, protection, or purpose.
The mind of the spiritual man is looking for a way to develop and ennoble his character beyond the bounds of his limited human understanding. The spiritual man is trying to increase his capacity to understand spiritual truth and obey spiritual principles.
The principle of the sabbath is intimated in this: For six days thou shalt labor and do all thy work . . . but do no work and rest on the seventh day.
What does this mean?
It means put your shoulder to the wheel and get your work done before you rest. Heathens rest before they do the work, going into debt and bondage or selling their children into bondage to pay for their present leisure. Then they never really have rest at all, even if they do observe a calendar day to disengage from work. They're still never disengaged from filthy commerce and compulsory systems of "buy now, pay later" ethics.
Build the house and finish it completely before you rest. God FINISHED all his work, then he rested. He did not rest until his work was done.
Heathens don't get much important done because they're going into debt and bondage to get free benefits without working for them.
This is what the law of the sabbath illustrates.
If you want to be technical, the lunar sabbath is the only one that does work most anywhere . . . but pointing out the correct lunar sabbath or Saturday sabbath or Sunday sabbath and refraining from work on that day does not fulfill the commandment to keep the sabbath day holy.
FINISHING the work and then resting instead of going into bondage is keeping the sabbath day holy. |
| jambosas |
Posted - 31 Dec 2005 : 15:07:55
So in short at this time I dont know because the statements in scripture are not clear enough but lets see how it was calculated in 2005 what day was the wave offering done for the feast of unleaven bread ? then we can maybe apply the rules from there and see if the 55 day count works? To me it does not without manmade adjustments? |
| jambosas |
Posted - 30 Dec 2005 : 13:06:12
Let me ask you a question - do you think these laws given to us should be valid anywhere on earth - if so how can a person who lives in South Africa or South America follow the law. The lunar calendar does not have this problem. |
| jambosas |
Posted - 30 Dec 2005 : 12:57:15
There are no floating holy days - how could there be, one holy day would fall on another, or next to another? |
| jambosas |
Posted - 30 Dec 2005 : 12:53:53
The lunar calendar has this feast at the 28th period of the 4th month every year. First lets look at a phrase all saturday people wish to over look on this count. EX34:22 A good translation would be .....on or after the (turning, new year, or revolution of the year) How can you count your way and be anywhere near a new year or revolution of a year? The best translation backed by the greek is revolution of the year - this could be summer? where the sun starts back, and fits in a global environment. By the way this day falls in a sabbath period on the lunar calendar both in the northern and southern parts of the globe. Once again you read a verse your way - does it not say after 7 sabbaths (perfect) count 50 days? not equals 50 days? |
| Linc |
Posted - 30 Dec 2005 : 11:41:28
quote:
Originally posted by jambosas
The fifty day count issue: first question is the sabbath a day - I contend it is not a day and there for how can it be counted as one? Show me where sabbath is a day (all sabbath periods have a day in them).
Show me how the fiftieth day can be the day after the seventh sabbath, in your Lunar Sabbath scheme. Because the Bible is very clear that the seven sabbaths took 49 days, and the day after the seventh sabbath is the fiftieth.
How is this possible with a Lunar Sabbath? |
| jambosas |
Posted - 30 Dec 2005 : 11:27:19
The fifty day count issue: first question is the sabbath a day - I contend it is not a day and there for how can it be counted as one? Show me where sabbath is a day (all sabbath periods have a day in them). |
| jambosas |
Posted - 30 Dec 2005 : 11:20:59
Hello CHIZKIYAHU You are right - they do not prove saturnday - because they cant. Anyone who uses the sun as a measure of time has introduced time to a calendar that cannot fit without manmade changes. A true calendar would never need changes and be valid anywhere on earth until the end of this age. The lunar calendar is this calendar created by the Father of all, perfect in time, every period is accounted for every day. |
| jambosas |
Posted - 30 Dec 2005 : 11:05:06
The new moon being the first sight of it I hope? not the period when the moon cannot be seen. What scripture do you use to explain counting 50 days from what day and after what sabbath? |
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