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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2006 :  12:41:31  Show Profile
Greetings and salutations, brother Jay:

Peace be unto the house.

Very, very interesting; thank you.

Bearer. The person in possession of an instrument, document of title, or security payable to bearer or indorsed in blank. U.C.C. 1-201(5). When a check, note, draft, etc., is payable to "bearer," it imports that such shall be payable to any person who may present the instrument. See also Payable to bearer. - Black's Law Dictionary, Abridged Sixth Edition, page 105

Payable to bearer. A negotiable instrument is payable to bearer when by its terms it is payable to (a) bearer or the order of bearer; or (b) a specified person or bearer; or (c) "cash" or the order of "cash", or any other indication which does not purport to designate a specific payee. U.C.C. 3-110. See alsoNegotiation (Ibid.) page 781


Under the word "Negotiation" on page 720 we find this: If the instrument is payable to order it is negotiated by delivery with any necessary indorsement; if payable to bearer it is negotiated by delivery. U.C.C. 3-202(1)

We put forth that he said, "...the signature on the check was in question" to cover his "backside" since he knows that it is perfectly LEGAL to indorse a check bearer or payable to bearer. That being the case, we have to wonder why he chose not to accept the negotiation as originally presented.


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional USA or STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
An act done by me against my will is not my act.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 05 Aug 2006 12:43:52
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Jay Scott
Advanced Member

uSA
181 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2006 :  18:01:35  Show Profile
Greets, brothers and sister!

Your input is requested!

I received a check in the mail recently and took it today to the bank it was drawn on (the drawee). The nice teller told me there's a 5 dollar charge for cashing business checks (after I already added my restricted indoresment [NLA/NVA-see previous posts]). I said I'm not cashing the check, I'm presenting it for acceptance. She said it was bank policy and all banks do it. I told her that I'm only interested in presenting this check for acceptance in full. We went around and round a bit. I ended up talking to the Assistant Manager and getting the same story. I asked him if he was subject to the UCC. He gave me a non-answer, so I asked him the same question again. Then he said he did not have the answer to that question. I then asked him to put down in writing why he would not return the full amount of the check. He wrote:

quote:
<Drawer>,

<Jay> presented a check for the amount of $X check # YYYYYY. It is policy that if the cust. does not bank with us there is a fee of $5.00 for cashing the business check.

<signature>
Assistant Manager


It's interesting to me he used 2 lines in his dollar sign, instead of the single vertical line used in typeset material -->$ vs. $$<--. But that's another story.

Back to the subject at hand...at this point I can see two options. 1. return to the drawer, give him the dishonored (indorsed) check and note, and ask for another form of payment in which I may receive the full amount we agreed to. Or, 2. press the issue with the bank in order to prevent this from happening again...if possible.

I just reread the UCC article 3 this morning and I can see only three requirements for making a presentment. 1. deliver the instrument, 2., if payee is identified, provide reasonable identification, and 3. provide indorsement, again, if payee is identified.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/3/article3.htm#Negotiation

Read 3-201(b) in particular.

(By the way, it appears to me that if the payee is not specifically identified, then the instrument is payable to whoever brings it in...no indorsement required. An example of this may be a check that has a blank payee field, or made out to bearer, or cash. http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/3/article3.htm#s3-109 )

This brings another issue to mind...the ol' "thumbprint requirement". I did notice the bank participated in the "thumbprint requirement" program, but either we didn't get that far or they weren't going to require that. But the "check cashing fee" and the "thumbprint requirement" brings the same question to my mind...

Is it possible for banks to stack "policy" on top of the UCC requirements? Wouldn't they need my agreement to include additional restrictions or requirements? Or can a man expect the bankers to honor the UCC all by itself? If so, how can a man encourage them to comply? I'm hoping I can learn how to make them stick to the terms they agreed to.

Be blessed.

Jay Scott

Edited by - Jay Scott on 16 Aug 2006 18:17:17
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Jay Scott
Advanced Member

uSA
181 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2006 :  17:51:25  Show Profile
Recently a man gave me a check. I wrote on the back something like:

Pay to the order of <DRAWEE BANK>
Without Recourse
<autograph>

...and took it to his bank.

The nice teller did not know what to do so disappeared behind the counter. Shortly she returned with another lady who asked me why I wrote that on the back. I said, "that's my endorsement." Then she said something like, "there is no recourse to you, it's our check." I pondered this for a moment then she said, "I was wondering if you were having problems with this customer." I replied that I was not having problems. The nice lady then told the teller that the endorsement was okay and the teller gave me FRNs in the amount of the check.

I'm still trying to figure out what that was all about.

cum grano salis

Jay Scott

Edited by - Jay Scott on 24 Feb 2007 23:17:23
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Jay Scott
Advanced Member

uSA
181 Posts

Posted - 09 Jul 2007 :  13:14:14  Show Profile
Greetings and warm thoughts,

Recently I received yet another check from an organization. It had what looked like my name on it and was drawn against a bank that has a branch in my area: US Bank. I brought the check there and told them I was making a presentment and I'd like cash.

The lady behind the counter asked for ID, so I offered a card I have from Sam's Club that has a photo on it. She asked if I had a driver's license. I said no. She said she needed some form of government issued photo ID for her computers. I asked to see the manager. She repeated the same. I called US Bank customer support, the support lady said the same.

I contacted the director of the organization where I got the check from and told her that the bank her organization had an account would not cash the check without government ID and I asked her to call the manager at the branch near me to discuss the matter.

Apparantly the manager told the director that I had two options, go to the local DMV and get a government issued photo ID OR the director could send me a check made out to US Bank along with a letter authorizing US Bank to make me out a cashier's check.

The director was okay with that (cool) but the treasurer of the organization had reservations (not so cool). So I told them I accept the check they sent, so as not to have a conflict between us.

I did some research and it appears to me that a dishonored draft is an injury against the account holder, not the holder in due course. So, in that case, my only recourse would be against the organization, and my policy is to not charge my brother, so be it.

I presume the presentment was dishonored because I offered the draft and reasonable identification. I learned from my research that there is another requirement for presentment, and that is the terms of the contract must also be satisfied. Apparently the organization has unwritten terms I was not aware of, and that would be that I aquire government issued photo identification to convert their checks written to me to cash.

I don't have any questions, but comments are welcome.

Be blessed.

Jay Scott.




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mikah2k
Regular Member

USA
34 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2007 :  13:34:02  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Scott

Greetings and warm thoughts,

...

I presume the presentment was dishonored because I offered the draft and reasonable identification. I learned from my research that there is another requirement for presentment, and that is the terms of the contract must also be satisfied. Apparently the organization has unwritten terms I was not aware of, and that would be that I aquire government issued photo identification to convert their checks written to me to cash.

I don't have any questions, but comments are welcome.

Be blessed.

Jay Scott.








Maybe get some governmental issued id: http://www.worldservice.org/ has a passport that is governmental issued and it does not affect the status of the passport-holder and it is not property of the wsa, but property of the passport-holder (so it cannot be revoked by any agency of U.S.). At SJ website, I saw David Merrill used his truename as the the surname when filling out the application.

Alternatively, make your own picture id, sign in presence of notary and get notarized, then get notarization apostilled by secretary of state for your country/state: and you have government issued id that is not revocable by any agency of U.S. I have seen nice templates at the SJ website.

Alternatively, I have read that casinos like exchanging paper for paper and have more relaxed requirements than banks. I think they still want govt-issue id, but verify for yourself.

Also, you could exchange the instrument for minted coin with a gold/silver dealer. You have to find a dealer willing to take 3rd party checks endorsed to the dealer. You endorse to the dealer: "Pay to the order of DEALERNAME, without recourse, Truename d.b.a. PAYEENAME-ON-INSTRUMENT-FACE" or "Exchanged for _ of equal face value, by Truename d.b.a. PAYEENAME-ON-INSTRUMENT-FACE"

Also, you could have any trustworthy friends/relatives who would deposit it in their account and get you cash.

If you don't want to follow any of the above options, for remedy you'll have to initiate a protest for non-payment/non-acceptance of the instrument.

If you don't want to do the protest, you will have to demand another form of payment from the one who issued the instrument to you.

Pray for the way to escape and look for the path of least resistance and no compromise to your status.

Edited by - mikah2k on 14 Jul 2007 18:44:43
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Jay Scott
Advanced Member

uSA
181 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2007 :  14:44:18  Show Profile
Wow, excellent suggestions. Some I've thought of and others are new to me. Thanks, mikah2k.

quote:
Originally posted by mikah2kMaybe get some governmental issued id: www.wsa.org has a passport that is governmental issued and it does not affect the status of the passport-holder and it is not property of the wsa, but property of the passport-holder (so it cannot be revoked by any agency of U.S.). At SJ website, I saw David Merrill used his truename as the the surname when filling out the application.


If I remember correctly, the bank manager said state driver's license or state identification or passport. So I'm not sure if this one would go far.


quote:
Originally posted by mikah2kAlternatively, make your own picture id, sign in presence of notary and get notarized, then get notarization apostilled by secretary of state for your country/state: and you have government issued id that is not revocable by any agency of U.S. I have seen nice templates at the SJ website.


I've thought about this. It still may not be acceptable by that particular bank (at least without some pressure) but I think it would be an officer of the state verifiying at least by what name I go by and a true and correct photo. Good one.


quote:
Originally posted by mikah2kAlternatively, I have read that casinos like exchanging paper for paper and have more relaxed requirements than banks. I think they still want govt-issue id, but verify for yourself.


There are Indian-operated casinos in the area. That's worth a try.


quote:
Originally posted by mikah2kAlso, you could exchange the instrument for minted coin with a gold/silver dealer. You have to find a dealer willing to take 3rd party checks endorsed to the dealer. You endorse to the dealer: "Pay to the order of DEALERNAME, without recourse, Truename d.b.a. PAYEENAME-ON-INSTRUMENT-FACE" or "Exchanged for _ of equal face value, by Truename d.b.a. PAYEENAME-ON-INSTRUMENT-FACE"


Another good suggestion. I likee.


quote:
Originally posted by mikah2kAlso, you could have any trustworthy friends/relatives who would deposit it in their account and get you cash.


I've thougth of this. How would that be done? Would I endorse it on the back to them? Just like the coin dealer? Then they deposit in the account they hold? Is that a third party check? And do banks accept that? That may depend on bank policy, eh?


quote:
Originally posted by mikah2kIf you don't want to follow any of the above options, for remedy you'll have to initiate a protest for non-payment/non-acceptance of the instrument.

If you don't want to do the protest, you will have to demand another form of payment from the one who issued the instrument to you.


I don't feel compelled to demand any kind of payment. Just the opposite. I sure don't feel like I have to work for everyone and get nothing. But if an agreement doesn't go as planned I don't feel compelled to force it.


quote:
Originally posted by mikah2kPray for the way to escape and look for the path of least resistance and no compromise to your status.



Best advice of all. Thanks for that. Good for much contemplation.

I don't recall having any problem with small, local banks. It seems to be just the biggies.

Jay Scott.



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cassie0627
Junior Member

uSA
21 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2007 :  18:45:36  Show Profile
Hi Lewish,

There is a essage for you on the notaries forum, and I would apprecaie a reply when you get a chance. I'm a new suscriber and did not know how to reach you.

Aloha from Hawaii

Cassie

Cassie Eleson
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doer
Advanced Member

uSA
198 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2007 :  00:56:41  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by mikah2k

Maybe get some governmental issued id: www.wsa.org has a passport that is governmental issued and it does not affect the status of the passport-holder and it is not property of the wsa, but property of the passport-holder (so it cannot be revoked by any agency of U.S.). At SJ website, I saw David Merrill used his truename as the the surname when filling out the application.



Going to the Website - www.wsa.org gets you "Washington Science Association." Did you mean - http://www.worldservice.org/doc.html

And does anyone know how effective those "World Passports" are, as ID and travel documents today, in light of the Patriot Act and other restrictive U.S. Federal policies?

Also, what is the Link to your reference of the "SJ Website?"

Thanks,
George

Edited by - doer on 14 Jul 2007 00:59:38
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Jay Scott
Advanced Member

uSA
181 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2007 :  13:10:04  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by doer

quote:
Originally posted by mikah2k

Maybe get some governmental issued id: www.wsa.org has a passport that is governmental issued and it does not affect the status of the passport-holder and it is not property of the wsa, but property of the passport-holder (so it cannot be revoked by any agency of U.S.). At SJ website, I saw David Merrill used his truename as the the surname when filling out the application.



Going to the Website - www.wsa.org gets you "Washington Science Association." Did you mean - http://www.worldservice.org/doc.html

And does anyone know how effective those "World Passports" are, as ID and travel documents today, in light of the Patriot Act and other restrictive U.S. Federal policies?

Also, what is the Link to your reference of the "SJ Website?"

Thanks,
George


I'm not sure, but mikah2k may be referring to these:

http://www.suijuris.net/forum/attachments/asset-protection-estate-planning/3585-public-money-right-direct-experiences-please-passport-sanitized.jpg?d=1178129882

http://www.suijuris.net/forum/110633-post386.html

http://www.suijuris.net/forum/asset-protection-estate-planning/9421-public-money-right-direct-experiences-please-39.html

http://www.suijuris.net/forum/

Membership may be required to view some of these links.

Jay Scott.


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mikah2k
Regular Member

USA
34 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2007 :  18:48:01  Show Profile
doer,
I changed the url. Thanks for pointing that out.

Jay Scott,
In re quote below, yes you would mark similar to the endorsement for the coin dealer.

quote:
Originally posted by Jay Scott

Wow, excellent suggestions. Some I've thought of and others are new to me. Thanks, mikah2k.

...

quote:
Originally posted by mikah2kAlso, you could have any trustworthy friends/relatives who would deposit it in their account and get you cash.


I've thougth of this. How would that be done? Would I endorse it on the back to them? Just like the coin dealer? Then they deposit in the account they hold? Is that a third party check? And do banks accept that? That may depend on bank policy, eh?


...


Edited by - mikah2k on 14 Jul 2007 18:48:52
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Jay Scott
Advanced Member

uSA
181 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2007 :  15:06:37  Show Profile
I imagine you are well. All is well here...as far as I know.

For more about the ongoing saga..."Gone with the Bank"...read my post here:

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showpost.php?p=693257&postcount=154

Comments and suggestions welcome and encouraged.

Be blessed.

Jay Scott.





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Lewish
Advanced Member

uSA
496 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2007 :  15:18:18  Show Profile
Brother Jay,

It appears that you do not understand the meaning, in a commercial sense, the word "negotiable".

Clearly Federal Reserve Notes are negotiable, or else all use of them would stop.

"Negotiable" in this context means, "capable of being transferred from one party to another, for use by the second party." Obviously, FRNs can be transferred to another person for use by them.

So, your stamp was erroneous at best, and a stoppage of commerce at worst.


Peace,



Lewis
A Man on the Land on Washington as a Citizen thereon.

Edited by - Lewish on 25 Aug 2007 15:19:03
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Jay Scott
Advanced Member

uSA
181 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2007 :  17:42:21  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Lewish

Brother Jay,

It appears that you do not understand the meaning, in a commercial sense, the word "negotiable".

Clearly Federal Reserve Notes are negotiable, or else all use of them would stop.

"Negotiable" in this context means, "capable of being transferred from one party to another, for use by the second party." Obviously, FRNs can be transferred to another person for use by them.

So, your stamp was erroneous at best, and a stoppage of commerce at worst.


Peace,



Lewis
A Man on the Land on Washington as a Citizen thereon.



I'm sure you are correct. Thanks for your feedback. Good to hear from you.

What do you think would be a more appropriate appellation for a Federal Reserve Note in lieu of "lawful money"? (As per 12 USC 411.)

Be blessed.

Jay Scott.

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Lewish
Advanced Member

uSA
496 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2007 :  18:57:27  Show Profile

Why not simply put what you wrote: "accepted in lieu of lawful money"?




Lewis
A Man on the Land on Washington as a Citizen thereon.
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David Merrill
Advanced Member

USA
1141 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2007 :  22:00:24  Show Profile
That would be an endorsement of private credit from the Fed. The objective is to redeem lawful money. Lawful money, US notes in the form of Federal Reserve Notes is non-negotiable because it cannot be traded up to any higher currency.

FRNs are redeemable in lawful money while US notes shall be lawful money.


Regards,

David Merrill.

http://friends-n-family-research.info/FFR/Merrill_PublicMoney.wmv
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1054706869308133588
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Lewish
Advanced Member

uSA
496 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2007 :  12:51:56  Show Profile
Aw shucks, and all this time I thought the guy was perfectly happy redeeming my Federal Reserve Notes for United States of America 50 dollar Liberty gold pieces, which are lawful money. I guess I had better not tell him they are non-negotiable.

Peace to you all,


Lewis
A Man on the Land on Washington as a Citizen thereon.
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David Merrill
Advanced Member

USA
1141 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2007 :  21:35:50  Show Profile
Nope.

Here's the current definition of lawful money. But first understand that the Constitution leaves it to Congress to define lawful money.

US v Rickman; 638 F.2d 182

In the exercise of that power Congress has declared that Federal Reserve Notes are legal tender and are redeemable in lawful money.

and

US v Ware; 608 F.2d 400

United States notes shall be lawful money, and a legal tender in payment of all debts, public and private, within the United States, except for duties on imports and interest on the public debt.


However you are correct if you are to ignore history.

http://friends-n-family-research.info/FFR/Merrill_juliard.jpg

The definition for lawful money in the US Code was repealed due to people getting metals mixed up in the emergency.

http://friends-n-family-research.info/FFR/Merrill_public_money_case_1.jpg
http://friends-n-family-research.info/FFR/Merrill_public_money_case_2.jpg



Regards,

David Merrill.
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Lewish
Advanced Member

uSA
496 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2007 :  17:40:08  Show Profile
You seem to be confusing UNITED STATES NOTES with FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES. They are not the same. UNITED STATES NOTES are issued by the trust called the UNITED STATES. FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES are issued by a private bank called THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK.

I don't have a copy of US v Rickman, but totally agree with your use of US v Ware.



Lewis
A Man on the Land on Washington as a Citizen thereon.
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doer
Advanced Member

uSA
198 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2007 :  20:30:17  Show Profile
David,

It is interesting that you bring up US v Ware; 608 F.2d 400 --

"United States notes shall be lawful money, and a legal tender in payment of all debts, public and private, within the United States, except for duties on imports and interest on the public debt." (Emphasis mine)

Since they can only be "legal tender" WITHIN the U.S., then do they have no value within the State Republics? And what is then used to pay the "interest on the public debt"? FRN's? (But those are DEBT notes, so how can anything be PAID with them?)

George



Edited by - doer on 02 Sep 2007 20:32:59
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David Merrill
Advanced Member

USA
1141 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2007 :  23:23:22  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by doer

David,

It is interesting that you bring up US v Ware; 608 F.2d 400 --

"United States notes shall be lawful money, and a legal tender in payment of all debts, public and private, within the United States, except for duties on imports and interest on the public debt." (Emphasis mine)

Since they can only be "legal tender" WITHIN the U.S., then do they have no value within the State Republics? And what is then used to pay the "interest on the public debt"? FRN's? (But those are DEBT notes, so how can anything be PAID with them?)

George






There are three different definitions for United States in most law dictionaries.

So of course the Congress gets to define money in the US and that is synonimous with USA - the several compact states.


Regards,

David Merrill.
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