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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 21:24:01
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Greetings all,
I find it amazing that the people of the new covenant, {so called Christians} who entered into a new relationship with The YHWH, via the blood sacrifice of Yahushuah {Jesus} as recorded in Yeremiah 31 and the epistle-letter, to The Hebrews 8th chapter, can not see that this New covenant is with the House of Israel and the House of Judah...only as I add the word only. Now, as a side bar, this new relationship also includes...whom-so-ever-will. Which is again not so much new, but repeated, as per Isaiah 56 1-6.
YaHuWeH never made any covenants with the house of Rome-Christian...Cretin...denomination, whatever.
Praise YaHuWeH, and His Firstborn Son.
As a man, if ye enter into my house-home, ye will obey my simple rules. I learned this from my Father. Far too many BELIEVE they can return home to The Father's House without having to obey the Rules of the House. How sad the ego of man is.
And I thank Him daily that He, that is, The YaHuWeH made His covenant with Abraham...unconditional.
Not for your sakes oh Israel, do I do this, but for My name's sake. Who or what is?
Yahushuah, the Firstborn among many brethern...Paul to the Roman's, as they say, 8:29.
A covenant given to David is also unconditional. A throne, a kingdom, Levites forever.
David most likely has over thirty million DNA descendents living now on the face of the earth. My heavens, just think when they awake to this fact of life.
And claim their heritage, through the Blood covenant.
And they overcame by the Blood of the Lamb...and the word of their own testimony...{hello D.M.} and they loved not their {CIVIL} lives unto the death.
There is also a covenant of resurrection, written within The Scriptures.
Numbers six twentyfour through twenty seven.
Psalms one hundred eighteen-seventeen. |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 21:59:56
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Robert-James said: A covenant given to David is also unconditional. A throne, a kingdom, Levites forever.
Steve: Due to breach of contract this arrangement was dismantled. Scripture states clearly that the 4th Kingdom which enslaved the Israelites for breach of same contract will be likewise dismantled. Once the 4th Kingdom has been defeated the Bible says the throne of David will rule again.. this time over ALL nations. This has not hapened yet. The KING still apportions land at a price. If you don't see weapons turned to plowshares then the 4th Kingdom is not yet defeated. If you don't see everyone from the least to the greatest knowing YHWH, then the 4th Kingdom is not yet defeated. Daniel 12:1 has not happened yet. Neither has Jeremiah 31:31-40.
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Edited by - BatKol on 14 Dec 2004 10:22:20 |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 21:57:48
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Hello,
I can only ask you to read psalm 89...especially verses 30-37.
Second Sam.7:16.
Yeremiah 31:17,20,21.
A whole contigent of khazar Jews are betting their souls that messiah has not come yet. Shall we hear their voice?
After the putting away, as in Yeremiah 3,...vs. 14 has been going on for almost two thousand years.
We each see through our own understanding. How perfect is that?
If One has not ratified the new covenant with his Creator YHWH, through the 'transmission line', messiah Yahushuah, which is available now, no FORCE is allowed to MAKE this happen.
Our own words shall judge us.
Since SIN came through one man, ha-Adam listening to his wife, rather that The YHWH, is it not logical that the remedy will be provided by one man, Yahushuah?
The simplicity of it all blew the pharasee Saul away. I can just see him, tucked away somewhere, reading scripture, after the Damascus 'experience',with all his LEARNING of talmudic dialectic reasoning, humbled to his core. "Not of works, least any man should boast". "It" is free.
I have a hunch that Wm. Tyndale had the new covenant written upon his heart, and had full authority to follow his inner thoughts to translate LATIN scripture into readable English for the 'common one's. They killed-burned-cursed him for listening to the commands written upon his heart. {They happened to be the wishy Henry 8th...the defender? of the faith"}.
I have read 'Pilgrims Progress' many times. John Bunyon had the new covenant written upon his heart. As did Columba, as did many who were collected one of a city, two of a family.
I do appreciate your desire to have this Spirit distributed to greater Israel in total abbundance. This may? be a personal burden? Nike...just do it. Nike means...overcomer in greek. May The YHWH put a check mark on your name...as per Ezekiel ch. 9:4.
Does the Throne of David rule on your throne? Psalm 40:8. What is heart?
Not to denegrate wo-men as in ha Adam listening to the voice of his wife {a cop out} thankfully we have our Rebecca's.
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 22:37:10
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Hello,
The literal kingdom of Yehud was disolved in 586 BCE for breach of contract plain and simple. The Bible says the throne of David will be reestablished to rule the world, literally. That day has not come for this planet yet else we would see all nations observing Sukkot. Now if it's all allegory and not literal, then we have something to discuss. However, if you are operating on the idea that the Bible is literal, involving real people and 'real' history, then Moshiac ben David has not yet come. No Khazars needed to prove this. Just a Bible and a newspaper.
Hope this post finds you well.
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2004 : 21:45:24
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A fine greetings,
so often all... fail to realize that scripture is layered and deeper than most {all?} can as yet, comprehend.
It helped me much to see that Yahushua came, say 30 a.d. as the son of Yoseph, in allegory, though truely he was the firstborn among many brethern...of that Spirit birth, The YHWH has always been after.[BTW, Yoseph is listed as the father of Yahushua...perfect!}
Not to create an image of His self, {Genesis 1:27} but the real deal. An image can also be looked at as a shadow.
Yoseph was hated by his carnal brethern, hated. Well, excepting Yudah and Reuban.
Years later Yoseph...you know the story, was named in Egyptian, saviour of the world...though his brethern could not see this. The book of Yasher states Yoseph told Benyamin the real deal, and to keep quiet about it. You decide whether Yasher or the KJV has the allegory in its proper condition.
Now, just who will accept the 'suffering-despised-rejected' sonship? Paul constantly says this is The requirement for the firstfriut company. As does Peter-James-John.
This is the lesson of golgotha, which Yahushua played out perfectly.
All want the Kingship of the promised son of David, of which literal David was a shadow of.
Yedidyah is truely coming, and with 'it' bringing Order to the New World.
The Davidic kingdom around 1000 b.c. shows perfectly a Kingdom of carnal men-women is not the Plan. The natural man receiveth not the things of Yah.
Yah never divorced Yudah-Benyamin, YHWH through Yeremiah, transplanted the Kingdom...and you have heard the story.
So, the Davidic kingdom was in the Isles, safe and sound. The pretenders played out the story in Palestine till their foul crime was proclaimed to the world. Even Rome admitted Yahushua King of Yudah, in three languages. But who shall declare his {messiah's} generation? {Isaiah 53} Paraphrased...who is going to think on how messiah can reproduce himself?
I can see plain as the day star that Genesis 49:11...and Zecharyah 9:9 talk about two "entrances". One has taken place...the suffering despised son of Yoseph.
Yahushua never while in his ministry, laid claim to being the son of David...the people mistakenly did, and still do. He refered the gainsayers to psalm 110.
Too much literal evidence is about and published, via Rome's basement, ot Ireland's sages, or documents and geneologies, even agreed upon by Talmudic sages, to doubt the throne in England is not the Davidic throne, which is really YaHuWeH's. Over 30 million men-women could qualify to sit upon that throne...as LEGAL FICTIONS, till the heir{s} come.
Scripture is in deep dodo, psalms-prophets-law books included, if the throne is not in existance, here and now...somewhere.
Scripture is emphatic of the covenant given to David.
David wanted to build YHWH a house. YHWH's response? No, I am going to build you a house.
Scripture states that The YHWH will raise the House of Yudah first, and this is why Yudah is listed firstly in Revelations.
Great progress can be made reading Haggi-ZecharYah-Ezra-NehemYah-Malachi in regarding leaving babylon, and rebuilding the "temple". Then, one must have the desire to leave modern babylon...good things don't come easy.
Scripture is allegory and historical, and most especially metaphysical.
This is our problem...as I talk, say historical, you metaphysical, the third party allegory, and someone walks in, and they think we are talking in tongue's.
And as a matter of fact, the Khazar Edomites are under contract to the Crown, to run the FICTIONAL economic systems.
An ALL CAP created NAME and a ss# ENTITLES one to do commerce {intercourse} in their world. The great whore made all nations commit FORNICATION.
And The YHWH all ways has His seven thousand. A remnant.
Before I ramble into Paul's discourse to the ROMAN's in chapter nine, ten, eleven, your question may be answered by finding out what Paul was alluding to in 11:26-27. And why the word, 'Deliverer' rather than Yahushua-Jesus-Christ-messiah?
Combine that with Hebrews 9:28...'appear' which means to gaze with "eyes wide opened". As in eriy, as in am-eriy-can.
we can talk about the matrix all we want, but we must see it for ourselves.
Yes, am well, and warm, thanks.
alone, but not lonely.
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2004 : 10:41:57
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No one has the whole picture. A comment or fact or 'truth', that seems applicable to you and can be implemented by you in day to day living without condemnation, verifies that information as 'truth' by witness with His Spirit in you ... " and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" ... Those 'truths' remain true until more or better information comes along that survives the same test, clarifying, improving and changing that 'truth' to give a little bit more clarity to the whole picture.
Saul/Paul didn't start Christianity (Acts 11:26). When you hold the premise that Paul started his own brand/form of religion you distort his writings. Paul wrote/writes to HaGoy, the nations. The Goy are worshippers at the temple of Janus and every other form of religion extant in the first century. Every religion except that ancient Hebrew culture in which Shaul was immersed and complete. Paul's writings have no context inside Hebraic culture or outside of the cultures that are totally ignorant of the nature and character of man and the nature and character of HaShem. I.E., the Goy that Paul is writing to, are totally ignorant of all Hebrew concepts as well as totally 'free' or 'unchained' of/from those laws and concepts. When Pauls' writings are put in their proper context the presumed contradictions, which appear because of a wrong premise or wrong premises, promptly disappear.
The argument about race is another subject easily taken out of context when you start with the wrong premise. The premise that life or righteousness exists because of some act or circumstance other than Leviticus 17:11 creates the race issue, not the strange wives of Nehemiah 13:27 or Ezra 10. Inter-racial marriage must be interpreted with 2 Corinthians 6:17 just like the Tanak states. The race issue has been argued and lost in at least two places I can remember offhand. Argued at Numbers 12:1 in the Tanak and Acts 10:28 in B'rit HaDashah.
The "trust" is already in place. The benefactor of the "trust" is already in place. Luke 22:25 ... "they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors ... But ye shall not be so" ... Luke 22:29 ... "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me" ... Stay with the "trust" already set in place, appoint any benefactor to your 'trust' and it becomes a corporation subject to ...
Hebrews 10:25 ... "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together" ...
Ignorance is relieved with knowledge. Ignorance will not disappear in opinion and dogma.
"There are no contradictions, only wrong premises". 'Atlas Shrugged'
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2004 : 23:52:45
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TN said: Paul wrote/writes to HaGoy
BK: Indeed. This is so very important, yet so many pass it by. The gospel of the uncircumcision is not the same as the gospel of the circumcision. Non-Israelites were never bound to the Torah but offered the rules laid out by James via Paul which are nothing less than proto Noachide laws. Acts 15:22-29, Acts 21:25. The Gauls being such non-Israelites. |
Edited by - BatKol on 19 Dec 2004 06:56:34 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2004 : 12:10:03
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Robert-James said: An ALL CAP created NAME and a ss# ENTITLES one to do commerce {intercourse} in their world.
BK: You don't need an ALL CAP NAME and a SS# to do commerce in 'their' world. You mostly need SCRIP and an agreed upon price.
The Money MAN said "It's so simple they will never get it."
Even the very elect might miss this one. |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2004 : 12:16:49
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quote:
Originally posted by BatKol
This is so very important, yet so many pass it by. The gospel of the uncircumcision is not the same as the gospel of the circumcision. Non-Israelites were never bound to the Torah but offered the rules laid out by James via Paul which are nothing less than proto Noachide laws. Acts 15:22-29, Acts 21:25. The Gauls being such non-Israelites.
Cornerstone Foundation wrote: The Book of Yahweh interprets Acts 15 verses 28 & 29 as follows:
For it was judged right by the Holy Spirit and us, to put on you no more requirements, than those which are required in the Law of Yahweh: That you abstain from godworship (worship of elohim), from bloodshed by violence, from things cooked with the blood still in them, and from all sexual impurity-from which you will do well to keep yourselves. Farewell!
Is this a correct translation?
Marty
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2004 : 12:23:39
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Originally posted by BatKol
This is so very important, yet so many pass it by. The gospel of the uncircumcision is not the same as the gospel of the circumcision. Non-Israelites were never bound to the Torah but offered the rules laid out by James via Paul which are nothing less than proto Noachide laws. Acts 15:22-29, Acts 21:25. The Gauls being such non-Israelites.
[/quote]
Cornerstone Foundation writes:
Steve...you have stated above that Non-Israelites were never bound to the Torah
Concerning that please consider the following Scriptures:
Exodus 12:49
Leviticus 24:22
Numbers 15:16
Numbers 15:29
Thank you for giving this your attention.
Marty
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2004 : 12:36:58
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Originally posted by BatKol
This is so very important, yet so many pass it by. The gospel of the uncircumcision is not the same as the gospel of the circumcision. Non-Israelites were never bound to the Torah but offered the rules laid out by James via Paul which are nothing less than proto Noachide laws. Acts 15:22-29, Acts 21:25.The Gauls being such non-Israelites.
[/quote]
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
Steve:
In your quote above you indicated that you view theGauls as being non-Israelites.
We agree that the Gauls were non-Judahites (herein after referred to as non-Yahdaim).
We believe that it is quite likely that many if not all of those called Gauls were in fact Israylites scattered among the nations (i.e.Gentiles) and therefore referred to by the Yahdaim as the
ethnos (i.e. Gentiles, heathen)
Please carefully consider this. From our point of view this is a key to properly understanding much of Scripture.
Marty |
Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 19 Dec 2004 12:41:58 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2004 : 14:03:48
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Hi Marty,
It's been a while. Hope all is well.
If the Gauls were Israelites then Paul would be instructing them to follow the Torah. If the Gauls were Israelites then the instructions of the Judaisers would have been accurate. Paul was often accused of preaching against the Torah but, in context to his mostly non-Israelite audience, this was not the case. |
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Robert-James
Advanced Member
uSA
353 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2004 : 16:00:27
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Greetings Israel,
98% of Yacob\Israel were not in Palestine in 30 a.d. "Now, go find them, and bring them back into the covenant", were the Orders. Ya really think all Israel stayed as slaves in old Egypt? Think William Wallaces' or Pat Henrys' forefathers put up with such bondage??? I do not.
No one has ever said that the early apostiles functioned with perfect knowledge. They didn't. Get over it.
Greece and Rome, for that matter, England-America, were founded by so called "lost Israelites". Solon...of Roman law fame, was an Israelite. As was Coke-Blackstone-John Marshall.
Paul speaking to the ROMAN'S, is like us speaking to the UNITED STATES citizens. Wake up.
What goes around, comes around, most especially if one does not learn the lessons.
Just think if THEY called for war {like against Iraq} and the people stated, "we have no king, but YHWH. Guess Geo. Bush and his geezer friends would have to go fight Sadam? "My People" have always been given the power, since Moses and the establishment of YHWH's Kingdom...on that third day ceremony.
Hosea spells it out in clarity, for those with eyes to see.
In Romans 13, Paul says to keep more than a couple rules. In fact, all ten are mentioned in the 'new covenant' writings. To ROMANS.
BTW, Americans have no caesar...which has been stated in COURTS here, much to the embarassement of a few D.A.'s. {Even made a few judges giggle!}
Entering into the third day...that resurrection day, quit looking back. Remember Lots wife? Nope, even her name was not recorded.
We need men-women of vision...for the future.
Most covenants are unconditional. Yahushuah made a re-covenant for "many". Many, is not all. The Abrahamic covenant is un-conditional, as is the Davidic covenant. So was the covenant with Noah.
Peter had to have an eye-opening vision, what three times, in order for Spirit thoughts to pierce his deadened head-heart. Peter re-presents so many people.
James the righteous, was captain over the flock in Yerusalem. James addressed his letter to the twelve tribes...scattered abroad, even in Gaul-Londinium-Black forest of Germany {germany=originals}.
Now, who published the scriptures after the 1260 years of darkness-that covered the earth? Northern Europeans-caucasians. Mere facts of history.
YHWH will call His servants by a new name, and it surely is not CHRISTIAN.
Yahushua stated to not...go to the samaratins, but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. "And they spake with cloven tongues. Cloven, to me, is forked tongues. This is mentioned in no way, to demean the original messengers. They had a valuable part, of the story.
Oh, that we would have the original letters Paul sent out!
Esdras...Ezra, mentions that Israel {ten tribes} were a great people scattered north and west, in his time...400's b.c.
In defense of the fisherman Peter, his lack of knowledge of Greater Israel, who had dispersed N\W seven hundred years before his life, is like us wondering what happened to Robert the Bruces' kin. Or King Richard's kin.
And now, there is coming, "no excuse" to those who deny the Houses of Israel/Yudah...being here, now, somewhere.
The absolute ignorance in which bible believers live in today,is without excuse.
YHWH swore to build David a House, which is being raised today. Amos 9:11. YedidYah.
Is it not grand to be able to enter into His rest, and watch Him work His wonders?
Yahushuah stated that he came in "his own name" and was refused, ANOTHER will come, and him ye will receive. Constantine built the Cretin CHURCH IN HIS NAME. Christian.
Christ-mass is the same as denying messiah. Christ=messiah, mass is: to dismiss. Go find a good dictionary.
When the two witnesses died, THEY all... Rev. 11:10 and they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice and make merry, and SHALL SEND GIFTS TO ONE ANOTHER, because the two prophets tormented {convicted} them that dwelt on the earth.{sounds like christmas to me} Two witnesses is very cryptic and overlayed, the two sons of oil-old-new covenants, first and last witness}{Oops, verse 11:11 is coming.
Feet.
So sorry that my thoughts may seem dis-concordant, to most. It is as much my fault as it is yours. You see? That the great call is to come out of religious babylon, AND, economic babylon, AND political babylon.
The religious part is the easiest.
The new PATRIOTIC act #2 STATES ALL PERSONS will have DNA samples on their DRIVERS licenses. All PERSONS will have a SS# ON THE ISSUED birth certificate. It will all get just sooooooooooo obvious.
Thank the Creator that He will bring about what He said will happen...to His Family.
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2004 : 12:04:20
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quote:
Originally posted by BatKol
If the Gauls were Israelites then Paul would be instructing them to follow the Torah.
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
It is our understanding that the brothers referred to in Acts 15:23 were flesh and blood Israylites.
It is our further understanding that Paul and his companions were instructing those brothers to follow the unperverted Torah. We believe that Yahshua Messiah was involved in this same activity in the areas he walked while physically on planet earth.
We also believe that you and we are to be engaged in this same activity if we are inhabitants of Yahweh's Kingdom.
Steven (Batkol) wrote:
If the Gauls were Israelites then the instructions of the Judaisers would have been accurate.
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
We disagree with what you have written.
We regard the definition of Judaisers to be those who pervert the Law of Yahweh (Torah) by adding to or taking away from the Law without the authority to do so.
Such adding to and taking away is in itself a violation of Yahweh's Law.
Dueteronomy 4:2 states "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor shall you take anything from it, so that you may keep the Laws of Yahweh your Father which I command you."
Please also see Dueteronomy 12:32, Proverbs 30:6, Revelation 22:18-19 and Dueteronomy 5:22 for second, third, fourth and fifth witnesses to the existence of and in support of that law.
Acts chapter 15 verse 5 in the Book of Yahweh states "But some of those in the faith who werefrom the sect of the Pharisees stood up, saying 'not only are they required to be circumcised, they are also(d)to be told to keep legal customs(2)(e) besides the Law given through Moses!
Hawkins footnote (d) for "to be told to keep legal customs" reads: Greek terein. Traditionally translated to keep. AGreek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Gingrich and Danker, Page 815 shows this word is correctly translated legal customs.
Hawkins footnote (2) for "besides the Law given through Moses" reads:
The Pharisees were a sect of the Yahdaim who were noted for their insistence that those who reverenced Yahweh were to keep ordinances, rules, and customs that were ordained by MEN (Yahchanan Mark 7:1-13). As a group, the Pharisees would insist that these man-made laws be kept, IN ADDITION TO the Law Yahweh gave through Moses, Romans 9:32.
Hawkins footnote (e) for "besides the Law given through Moses!" reads: Greek ton. Traditionally translated the. Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Pages 433 and 616 shows this word means as well as, (besides).
Steven (Batkol) wrote:
Paul was often accused of preaching against the Torah...
We agree that Paul may have been accused of preaching against the Torah...but we think that he preached only against the perverted torah that is the tradition of the elders which Yahshua also often and forcefully spoke against.
Our observation is that the leaven of the Pharisees is very prevalent in the Judeo-Christian assemblies today.
This is evidenced by the fact that they prohibit actions that Yahweh's Law does not prohibit....and also permit and encourage activities that Yahweh's Law does not permit.
Some of the activities the Judeo-Chrisitian assemblies permit and encourage are clearly stated in Yahweh's Law as being abominations in the sight of Yahweh.
He who has ears let him hear.
Thank you for giving this your prayful consideration. May the Spirit of Yahweh guide you as you consider these issues.
Marty |
Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 20 Dec 2004 12:14:45 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2004 : 14:15:17
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Hello Marty,
I am back home now and found the answer to my own question concerning the ritual cleaning question. Paul was joining the Jews in the Nazarite vow to show that he still followed Torah. However, here is what James had to say about non-Israelites and the Torah:
Act 21:17 And we having come to Jerusalem, the brethren did gladly receive us,
Act 21:18 and on the morrow Paul was going in with us unto James, all the elders also came,
Act 21:19 and having saluted them, he was declaring, one by one, each of the things God did among the nations through his ministration,
Act 21:21 and they are instructed concerning thee, that apostacy from Moses thou dost teach to all Jews among the nations, saying -- Not to circumcise the children, nor after the customs to walk;
Act 21:22 what then is it? certainly the multitude it behoveth to come together, for they will hear that thou hast come.
Now here we have the false accusation. Paul's message was to the non-Israelites, the gospel of the uncircumcision, and the Torah-zealous Jews who were present during his preachings, wrongly thought that Paul's message of no Torah for the gentiles also applied to them.
Act 21:23 `This, therefore, do that we say to thee: We have four men having a vow on themselves,
Act 21:24 these having taken, be purified with them, and be at expence with them, that they may shave the head, and all may know that the things of which they have been instructed concerning thee are nothing, but thou dost walk -- thyself also -- the law keeping.
Act 21:25 `And concerning those of the nations who have believed, we have written, having given judgment, that [i]they observe no such thing, except to keep themselves both from idol-sacrifices, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom.'
[i]What have James and the Jerusalem temple written and concluded? That the Gentiles which believe observe no such thing (Torah mentioned in verse 24), only the noachide-type laws mentioned in the last part of the sentence. This is why Paul could preach the gospel of the uncircumcision which does not require the non-Israelite believers, such as the Gauls, to observe Torah. The Torah had nothing to do with them so they were not obligated to it.
Peace,
Steve
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Edited by - BatKol on 21 Dec 2004 11:24:40 |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 13:11:14
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quote:
Originally posted by BatKol
Act 21:25 `And concerning those of the nations who have believed, we have written, having given judgment, that they observe no such thing, except to keep themselves both from idol-sacrifices, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom.'
What have James and the Jerusalem temple written and concluded? That the Gentiles which believe observe no such thing (Torah mentioned in verse 24), only the noachide-type laws mentioned in the last part of the sentence. This is why Paul could preach the gospel of the uncircumcision which does not require the non-Israelite believers, such as the Gauls, to observe Torah. The Torah had nothing to do with them so they were not obligated to it.
Peace,
Steve
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
In the Book of Yahweh, Mr. Hawkins translates Acts 21:25 as follows:
quote:
And concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written to them that they must keep themselves from the defilement of the worship of gods (elohim), from bloodshed by violence, from things cooked with the blood still in them, and from all sexual impurity.
Mr. Hawkins then appends the following footnote:
quote:
In many different places in the Holy Scriptures words were either added or deleted from the original writings, by the TRANSLATORS of these writings, which would effectually mislead the reader. Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24, and Acts 21:25 are three Scriptures in which words have either been added to them, or have been deliberately left untranslated in most versions, which mislead people into thinking that the Laws Yahweh gave should not be obeyed. Any reliable Diaglott, Interlinear, or compilation of the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts will give you this information.
We have not verified the accuacy of Mr. Hawkins translation nor his comments in the footnote above.
There are those in the ecclesia that are quite competent to do so if any of them feel this is something to look into further at this time.
It seems reasonable that Paul would be promoting the true unperverted law also promoted by Yahshua Messiah... to do otherwise would be in contradiction to words he wrote to the so-called Gentiles ethnos (which we believe were Israylites dispersed among the nations..just as the Scriptures frequently say they would be):
quote:
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Romans 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are righteous in the sight of Yahweh, but the doers of the law are the righteous.
Romans 2:25 Circumcision truly confers benefit, if you keep the Law; but if you are a breaker of the Law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.
Romans 7:1 Now are you ignorant brothers (for I speak to the ones who know the Law), that the Law has authority over a man as long as he lives?
Romans 7:5b ...the Law which is to be kept...
Romans 7:12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the Law of Yahweh according to the inward man;
Romans 7:25b So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.
Romans 8:4 In order that the righteous requirements of the Law might be fully performed in us, who do not live according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
There are many, many other Scriptures in which Paul encourages the so-called "Gentiles" to obey Yahweh's Law, Statute and Judgements.
Because we love you, Steven, and care about you and your family. We encourage you to consult with Yahweh's Set-apart Spirit concerning this important matter.
We exhort and encourage you in this because your family is dependant on your leadership in this.
Another reason we encourage you in this is that you are a thinker and a prolific contributor to this forum and perhaps others. It seems very important that you and we have a proper understanding of this foundational issue.
We ask Ab Yahweh through Yahshua Messiah to guide us all in this by the Spirit that dwells in both of Ab Yahweh and Yahshua His son. So that all in the eccelsia will be able to pray the beautiful Psalm 119 and mean it.
We also pray that all in the ecclesia may be found in the proper group with regard to Mattithyah 5:17-19 so that we might be "called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh".
quote:
Mattithyah 5:17-19 Do not even think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to destroy them, but to establish them.
For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh-the smallest of the letters-will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected.
Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh;
but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh.
Thank you, Steven, for communicating with us.
Marty
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Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 21 Dec 2004 13:26:52 |
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 15:04:35
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Thanks for the info Marty. I will look into this more closely. I think one of the main differences between us as I am not seeing the ethnos as Israelites.
Here are some other versions Acts 21:24 - 25 which say the same thing:
NKJV, KJV
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25: As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
NLT
24 Go with them to the Temple and join them in the purification ceremony, and pay for them to have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that the rumors are all false and that you yourself observe the Jewish laws.
25 "As for the Gentile Christians, all we ask of them is what we already told them in a letter: They should not eat food offered to idols, nor consume blood, nor eat meat from strangled animals, and they should stay away from all sexual immorality."
NASB
Act 21:24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
Act 21:25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."
Webster's
Act 21:24 Take them, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Act 21:25 As concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from lewdness.
Young's
Act 21:24 these having taken, be purified with them, and be at expence with them, that they may shave the head, and all may know that the things of which they have been instructed concerning thee are nothing, but thou dost walk -- thyself also -- the law keeping.
Act 21:25 `And concerning those of the nations who have believed, we have written, having given judgment, that they observe no such thing, except to keep themselves both from idol-sacrifices, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom.'
From just these few translations it all seems to say the same thing. I'll have to look into this matter more.
I have some other comments to your post but I have pressing matters to attend to. Believe me, I'd rather do this all day!
Peace,
Steve
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BatKol
Advanced Member
USA
735 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 22:51:56
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Greetings Marty,
I have been pondering this thread and this occured to me:
quote:
You said: It seems reasonable that Paul would be promoting the true unperverted law also promoted by Yahshua Messiah... to do otherwise would be in contradiction to words he wrote to the so-called Gentiles ethnos (which we believe were Israylites dispersed among the nations..just as the Scriptures frequently say they would be):
Consider the implications if the ethnos/gentiles Paul was speaking to were Abrahamic and not Israelite. Abraham was to be the father of many nations (goyim) complete with their own eternal Covenant to a set area of land. Paul makes clear use of the Abrahamic covenant as an example when preaching to the Gauls. This would explain why the Judaisers would be making such a big deal about circumcision for these people. This would also give another way at looking at why James issued the noachide-type laws for the non-Israelite believers in Acts. Torah is only for Israelites Psalm 147:19-20 "He shewith his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments to Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD."
Now, considering for a moment that ethnos means non-Israelites (but also used to define Abrahamic)Paul would be speaking to an audience of both Israelite and non-Israelite believers in Romans. "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"....Anyway, this speculation of mine would go a long way in making sense of Paul's method of being all things to all people. To those under the Law he comes as one under the Law, to those without the Law, he comes as one without the Law.
This idea might also lead one to ponder the indo-European Jebusite/Hittite/Amorite identity of pre-Israelite Jerusalem as well as Melchizedek. "Jerusalem, thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite". This group was already in place when Abraham came and gave his 10% and even much later when David purchased the threshing floor from them. Even later during the final complilation of the Tanakh as Jerusalem continued to be shared by the those who 'the children of Benjamin could not drive them out but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Benjamin at Jerusalem unto this day' (Josh. 15:63; Judg.. 1:21) ~~ "unto this day" i.e., until the date of last editing of the Tanakh, about the 6th Century B.C....Even later still with the connection to the area known as "the court of the Gentiles" which, perhaps by some ancient agreement, was reserved for this same group (I wonder if Cyrus the indo-European king YHWH calls 'My Moshiach' had something to do with this as there is no Law for this arrangement in the Torah of Moses). This "court of the Gentiles is the area "Jesus" called his father's house. Just some random thoughts on the matter.
Peace,
Steve
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Edited by - BatKol on 22 Dec 2004 23:47:29 |
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Cornerstone Foundation
Advanced Member
uSA
254 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 23:58:32
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quote:
Originally posted by BatKol
Greetings Marty,
I have been pondering this thread and this occured to me:
You said: It seems reasonable that Paul would be promoting the true unperverted law also promoted by Yahshua Messiah... to do otherwise would be in contradiction to words he wrote to the so-called Gentiles ethnos (which we believe were Israylites dispersed among the nations..just as the Scriptures frequently say they would be):
Consider the implications if the ethnos/gentiles Paul was speaking to were Abrahamic and not Israelite. Abraham was to be the father of many nations (goyim) complete with their own eternal Covenant. Paul makes clear use of the Abrahamic covenant as an example when preaching to the Gauls. This would explain why the Judaisers would be making such a big deal about circumcision for these people......
Peace,
Steve
Cornerstone Foundation wrote:
Steve,
Those are some very interesting observations...although we do find this problem with that scenerio:
The Torah contains:
1. Yahweh's Law, Statutes and Judgements which existed prior to the codification of the Mosaic Law at Mount Sinai.
2. Ordinances and perhaps others laws added at Mount Sinai when the Mosaic Law was codified.
That portion of the Torah concerning circumcision appears to have existed prior to the codification of the Mosaic Law at Mount Sinai.
This can be verified at Genesis 17:9-14.
Therefore all of Abraham's descendants who are partakers of Abrahamic Covenant #2 described in Genesis 17 had a requirement for circumcision...not just Israylites...
...or could it be that only Abraham's descendants in the Isaac/Yaaqob-Israyl line are eligible to be partakers of Abrahamic Covenant #2?
Best Regards,
Marty |
Edited by - Cornerstone Foundation on 23 Dec 2004 00:13:04 |
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True North
Advanced Member
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 10:04:59
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The forum discussion in ... Schedule A: "Cracking the Code" ... between David Merrill and source seem to me to lead in the same direction as the forum discussion in ... Biblical Covenants ... between Batkol and Cornerstone Foundation, I.E. Torah, Rex, Law. This is added FYIO.
When a peripatetic teacher taught in haeretz (the land), he was teaching a people who were raised on the TaNaK. Usually talmudim (students) started in the book of purity, (leviticus), at age three. These students had, by the age twelve, memorized most of the teachings or Law (Torah), prophets (Nevi'im) and writings (K'tuvim) TNK = TaNaK. This is important to know in understanding the words of King Yeshua.
The teacher would use a word from the TaNaK that would instantly remind these students of a passage from the TaNaK so the context of the message was alluded to. He would then give a short dissertation and then usually an admonition or two.
Marty quotes, Matthew 5:17 ... "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" ... which you can only get context for 'outside' Christendom. The phrase "destroy the law" can be interpreted for context from writings found only in mishna and talmud.
When two teachers disagreed as to interpretation of a scripture, it was usually considered that, both teachers were correct just coming from a different face of the many facets that make up the diamond of HaShem. When one teacher was adamant about the misinterpretation by another, he would exclaim, "You are destroying the law". Yeshua said he had come to correctly interpret the law not misinterpret it.
HaShem's instructions consist of torah shebe'al pe and torah shebiktav. Torah shebiktav (wrtitten torah), or what is known as the pentateuch consists of the five books of Moses - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy given to Israel at Sinai. Israel's sages believed that Moses received further oral instruction or torah shebe'al pe.
During the time of Yeshua, the orthodox view was that this Oral Torah had been handed down from generation to generation. The Oral Torah included the precepts and interpretations implied in the Written Torah. It also came to include the legal decisions of rabbinic courts and the oral traditions of their predecessors.
The body of legal precedent that develops as judges hand down rulings which interpret the laws of legislators is analogous to the Oral Torah. The written law is applied as cases are brought forward that create a tradition of interpretations and precedent which are no less authoritive than the laws themselves.
The traditions of the elders claimed an authority and continuity equal to that of the Written Torah. It claimed authenticity as a living interpretation and essential complement to Written Torah above the Oral Torah only with the Written Torah as its foundation. The changes in the traditions brought the need for interpretation but the Oral and Written Torah were dependent upon one another.
The Mishnah was the first compilation of Oral Torah authored by Rabbi Yehuda ha-Nazi about 200 AD. In the tradition of the bard and storyteller, to maintain the integrity of the story, the torah shebe'al pe was handed down orally. This ancient oral tradition was broken for fear that the mishna would be lost. Once the tradition was compromised, other collections of Oral Torah were incorporated, such as the commentary on the Mishnah known as Gemara. The writings were eventually put together as the Talmud. The Jerusalem Talmud, compiled in Israel, and the Babylonian Talmud compiled by Jewish sages in Babylon. They differ but the Mishna in both is Rabbi Yehuda's.
The Written Torah is not viewed as something separate from the Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud is central in Jewish education. A thorough knowledge of Written Torah is prerequisite to Talmudic study as it is the foundation of the "house" of Talmud. As in the days of Yeshua, every Orthodox Jewish child grows up learning the bible with the Pentateuch as the all important first step to learning Talmud.
Yeshua attached great importance to the Oral Torah which was still unwritten in his day. This is evidenced in Matthew 23:3 when he admonishes his disciples to "do and observe everything they (the scribes and Pharisees) command you". He was referring to the Pharisee's oral traditions and interpretations of the Written Torah. The written Torah could not have been in question, for it was accepted by all sects of Judaism. Further evidence comes from Yeshua when he said in Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. The jot is the yod of the Hebrew language and the kotz is the tittle and of course the law is Torah.
Further indirect but obvious evidence is that Yeshua was never charged with breaking any part of Torah. The disciples were accused of disobeying aspects of Oral Torah in Luke 6:1-2 but the only accusation against Yeshua was for breaking Sabbath by healing the sick (Luke 14:1-4).
Christian lack of knowledge of Jewish custom has led to misunderstanding Yeshua. His focus was never on himself but on God. A major misunderstanding of Jewish Oral Torah comes in not knowing the rabbinic prohibition against using the unutterable name of God. The unutterable name is the original understanding of the third commandment of Exodus 20:7. Also the the original term "malkut shamaiyim" (Kingdom of Heaven) is common in Hebrew literature of the period, while Kingdom of God is not. The most common word for God used by Yeshua was "heaven". This is seen in Matthew 21:25 "The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven (ie: from God), or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
Another example of rabbinic sophistication is recorded in Matthew 26:64, "Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven". The right hand of power hints at two messianic passages from scripture, Daniel 7:13 and Psalm 110:1.
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Biblical Covenants
