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Werner Maximilian
Senior Member

USA
55 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2004 :  13:28:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Man as an organism needs energy.Take away enough of it from him and he dies.
What man has the right to take any of yours to ensure that his life endures?
Men give that taking nice names like "taxes" or "permits" or "license". Maybe it's called "government". I call it theft. Perhaps we're not supposed to have anything.
I don't get that from my read of the owners' manual. If we were put on this world for a purpose why would God just let us expire at the hand of men who assert that they have more right to live than you?
From reading your posts you sound to me like someone trying to justify his nice cushy government job. Many men and women here just try to scratch a bare living out of this evil place and don't need another morsel of bread taken from their families' mouth to support anoter man's utopian dreams of a world wide welfare(for government) State.
Thanks for the vent,
Werner Maximilian

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Solace
Regular Member

Canada
40 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2004 :  06:55:51  Show Profile  Click to see Solace's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
The manner of my employment is not a matter of concern or consequence, to me even, let alone to another. My Father in Heaven provides for my needs, what cause have I to justify? The Lord justifies all things.

Yet you have the appearance of a man who is a victim of the world in which he lives. How then do you justify? To be a victim these men must have power over you. Did God give them this power? Did they give themselves the power? Or did you give them the power? That you are concerned for the wealth of this world makes me think the latter.

God knows even when the sparrow goes to and fro, when it is born and when it dies. He takes care of the sparrow, how much more so shall he take care of his children? While God is your father you will never be poor, though the men of this earth take away all that you have. Whatever happened to the scripture that says to take no heed for what you will eat? The Heavenly Father will provide for his children.

My hope for you is that you will realize the Kingdom of Heaven is come already, and there is a place therein for all of the elect. You have nothing to fear from men. Take of Babylon what you will, for Babylon cannot touch what is truly yours.

Is anything that I say here or have said false? Is anything not true with the scripture?
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Werner Maximilian
Senior Member

USA
55 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2004 :  14:39:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yahoshua tells us there are men whos' lips are near Him but their hearts' are far away and that there would come a time when good intentioned men would kill believers thinking they were doing His work. My point is that mens' words mean far less than their actions. Actions tend to reflect what's in a mans' heart.

I see many here on this site trying to be doers of the Word and not just hearers. Puting their beliefs into action is where friction with Babylon brings heat into their lives. Do you then become a victim of the world because your beliefs clash with those of the world?

In my encounters with the New Centurions (police), I've been asked why I would want to bring such troubles on myself. I'm amused because it's like when an older brother grabs the younger ones' wrists and makes him hit himself then keeps asking ," Why are you hitting yourself?"

I respond because I think your line of reasoning is a way to rationalize away personal responsibilities for what we do in our lives that can have adverse affects on others.

Werner Maximilian
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Solace
Regular Member

Canada
40 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2004 :  19:04:12  Show Profile  Click to see Solace's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Perhaps I live in a very different world than do you. Where I live I speak what I would speak to whomever wishes to listen, I proclaim the truth of my father, and I live my life as the Lord would have me live it. Often I endure the scorn of men, many do not like what I say for many do not like the truth, but never have I been harrassed by a police officer or any other sort of civil official. To the contrary, I have found my rights protected as much as any others are.

In his day Paul relied on his Roman citizenship to protect him from those who would have done him harm. How is it any worse for us to do the same? The world today is no more or less evil than was the world of that day. God doesn't want his children to live in fear of the country wherein they abide, or of the men that live around them.

Perhaps you can explain what it was that I said that led you to this conclusion of my reasoning; "is a way to rationalize away personal responsibilities for what we do in our lives that can have adverse affects on others."...? What action have I endorsed that has an adverse affect on others? I do hope that you are not a person who makes accusations of another but has no means to back it up. You cry foul over the injustices of the world around you; what now do you bring to justify your accusation of me? If you are just and the world is not, then you must surely be capable of justifying this accusation, or would my accuser become like the world that he so despises?
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2004 :  09:48:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, Solace:
Peace be unto the house.
Please pardon the intrusion here, but we wish to comment on the words you posted.
quote:
Originally posted by Solace

Perhaps I live in a very different world than do you.

Perhaps that is precisely the case, for it is written:
Yahu'hanan [John] 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own [and this is apparently truth, since you claim to have never been harrassed by "a police officer or any other sort of civil official"]: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
And again it is written:
Yahu'hanan [John]17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
And yet again it is written:
Yahu'hanan [John]17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
In order to fully comprehend what Yahowshua said, one must first understand what the Greek word kosmos, translated, "world", means here.
G2889; kosmos
Thayer Definition:
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

So if one follows this line of reasoning, right or wrong, and comes out of the "world", i.e. the constitutions and governments of men, and accepts the grace that has been offered and enters the Kingdom of Yahowah, should that man or woman, provided that he or she has harmed no one, nor defrauded anyone, be thrown in prison [or jail] for the "heinous crime" of not complying with the rudiments of a system that he or she has never, or no longer belongs to?
(Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using)
If one truly believes that the S.I.N. number is the mark of the beast, should one be directly, or indirectly, forced to get one? Where we currently sojourn as strangers with Yahowah one cannot even get a DRIVER'S LICENSE without the S.I.N. number, and if one does not have one of these graven images one will likely be arrested, incarcerated and sometimes beaten [but rarely murdered] for simply moving about in the current mode of transportation without kosmokrator's permission. Should we "follow a multitude to do evil" and just go ahead and take, what we believe to be the mark of the beast, like everyone else? Should we just become a part of a "world" that we perceive as inherently evil?
We were always taught that a government was a Voluntary association of men, is it not? If it is not, isn't this Forced Servitude? If ten of you decide that LICENSING is appropriate, and I do not, can you Lawfully force your belief on me? You appear to be a proponent of a "world" (system) that would, were it possible, impale the King once more, if they were able to get their hands on Him. Do you not see this? They will not voluntarily give up their mastery over people!!
People have said, if you don't love this country [meaning its SYSTEM], leave it. Where would we go that we would not be in Yahowah's Kingdom, which He created? Where would we go that we would not be "forced" into the imaginary kingdom of a man or men? The True Kingdom is inside of you, it is a "state of mind"!! If you believe that the Kingdom of Yahowah is real, it is. But if you believe the kingdom of CANADA is real, it also is, but only for you, the believer. I cannot "force" my beliefs on you, and you cannot "force" your beliefs on me. If you wish to serve kosmokrator and his government [world], go ahead, but why would you come here and appear to chide people who wish to serve Yahowah and His government?
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -Samuel Adams

fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 16 Nov 2004 09:56:48
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Werner Maximilian
Senior Member

USA
55 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2004 :  09:54:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sure. My accusation is that you came onto this site with your ideas and opinions. That's what we do here. I love it. I admire that these men host this site and provide a place for others to exspress their thoughts.

Ideas have consequences. Men seize on ideas and turn them into reality. Socialism started as an idea and the reality of it is pretty ugly. Therefore it is everyones' duty to seize upon any ideas presented and sift them through this massive database of their collected wisdom and life experiences and offer up an opinion about this idea.

You have said above to "Take of Babylon what you will." and "Don't fear men." When I had a wallet full of I.D.and credit cards the world seemed so much friendlier and I never had any trouble with authorities.

I think that when you take of Babylon you endorse your adoption into the family of man, you choose your master, you become "Resident" Res-thing,ident-identify or thing identified.

Edited by - Werner Maximilian on 16 Nov 2004 10:19:40
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Solace
Regular Member

Canada
40 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2004 :  12:44:41  Show Profile  Click to see Solace's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
This is curious stuff indeed. Did I not come here to speak unto the sons of God? What master is it that you serve then? Paul said that there is nothing that can seperate us from the love of God. Yet you believe that a number pressed onto a wallet sized card with your name on it robs you of salvation? What foolishness is this? Just as the kingdom of God cannot be seen by the eyes of men neither can the dominion of Satan. They know not the Hell wherein they live, nay, neither do you.

I know what sort of men ye are; you take the law and hold that true to your salvation. Know you not that the law brought only death? Even to he who fulfilled the law was the end thereof death upon the cross. Tell me now, are you sinners or saints?

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Tell me again I say, are you sinners or saints? Are you the sons of God or of the devil? The sons of God cannot sin, so sayeth the scripture, so then must it be true. Is there even one of you who will say to me that you cannot sin? Who then is your father?

If ye be the sons of God you know that you cannot sin, so sayeth the scripture, so must it be true. How then can a number pressed onto a wallet sized card that has your name on it be a sin? You read the S.I.N. anacronym and believe that it holds some hidden meaning which will rob you of your soul, yet you cannot even read the simplest of scriptures and realize that nothing and no one can rob the children of God.

If ye are not the sons of God then that is your affair, but at least know yourselves who your father is, and who is your master. I will not mince words for sake of your pride, because I know that I am a son of God. I do not seek your approval, if I did I would have come here and lied to you the way that you lie to each other.

What cause have I to be harrassed by the police or by officials when I speak the truth? Even they who call themselves the children of God scorn me for my speech, when every word that I have said is true to the scripture. I thank God that the police force are present today to keep me from harm by them who would kill me. And such men are you, for you will do anything to keep the truth from being spoken.

I have little doubt that this post will get me banned from this site, but that is of little consequence to me. Take heed for the consequence to yourselves however, for the Lord God will not strive with you forever. You cannot defeat what I say, for such is not possible. You accuse me of belonging to a system of men because I say do not fear men or demons. If you fear them you belong to them already. For my God is greater than the tower of Babel, and there is no king of men that will have my fear or awe.

You wayward people, you mock even your own selves. You point to me and discredit that I say to take of Babylon what you will, when Paul himself used his Roman citizenship to his own benefit. I will take my example then of Paul, and you can remain in fear of those people who are so busily wrapped up in their own lives that they truly couldn't give a care about yours anyway.

Do you think truly that God called his children to live in fear? How that I should enter into Heaven yet live in fear of the world? And this is the love of a father for his children? The love of your father perhaps, but my father does not wish me to fear any man.

One parting thought; for those of you, which I would wager is all of you, who would be rid of me and what I say. I am a son of God. I cannot sin. Let he who can say the same throw the first stone.
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Werner Maximilian
Senior Member

USA
55 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2004 :  14:33:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow. I for one am happy to have you on this site and welcome you.I just can't fathom some of your responses based on the fact that we read(I think)the same book.
Thats why they have a site like this, to hash some of it out.
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Solace
Regular Member

Canada
40 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2004 :  15:07:18  Show Profile  Click to see Solace's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I posted the verses in 1 John chapter 3. You tell me, is it the same book? Can you answer me then? Can you sin? The verse says that whosoever is born of God cannot commit sin. There is nothing that needs to be hashed out. I will not pretend for your sake or anyone else's that the truth is not the truth, or that the Bible has anything written inside it but the truth. The simple truth is that God's children cannot sin, or else there is no truth in the Bible. If you disagree you do not argue with me but instead you argue with God. When I say the children of God cannot sin I do not tell you my opinion or my interpretation, I tell you exactly what is written in the Bible. Raed the book for yourself, and then tell me if we are reading the same book.
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True North
Advanced Member

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2004 :  20:02:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Forgive please, my rudeness that is forthcoming here, I would seek to make disciples of Him.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Salvation is of the Jews, so what was the definition of sin and grace to the first century Hebrew? Do you know or does the infallible word of Christianity (that divorced itself from Yudah and is ineffable because of it) provide definition for you?

Paul does not ever say he is a citizen of Rome. He does say he was free born and he does say he is a Roman and he does say he is a citizen of no mean city. Do you understand the implication of "citizen of no mean city"?

Did you look at Gibbons' "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire"? It is pointed out there in that book that the Republic of Christs' followers exists alongside the Republic of Rome with its Roman citizens and free Romans.

The brothers of this forum are patient toward those new to this forum. Remain civil, not self-righteous and know "There are no contradictions, only wrong premises". 'Atlas Shrugged'

TN
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Solace
Regular Member

Canada
40 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2004 :  20:56:43  Show Profile  Click to see Solace's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
There is a difference between self-righteous and righteous, but it is obviously a difference that you can not perceive. I asked for one thing only, and it was the same sort of question that Christ himself asked of men such as you; let he who cannot sin cast the first stone. Two now have cast, yet neither can say that they cannot sin.

Paul said he is a Roman. I am a Canadian. I live in a country called Canada. This is where I make my abode, for as long as I have lived on this earth. To be a Roman or a Canadian cannot, in any way, shape or form, come between me and my salvation. If it could than the dominion of Canada is greater than the dominion of Heaven.

I told you before, the powers of this world have only so much power over you as you give them credit for having. You decide by your own mouth who has power over you and who does not. If you sin, you are the child of the devil. The bible tells us this clearly. If you believe that your affiliation with a country of this earth steals your salvation, then indeed it does.

You have rejected out of hand the gospel that I have shown you, which is straight and unaltered from the bible. Therefore know your own beliefs, and know that they are not of God.

Read 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

You asked what sin is, well there you have it. Pure and simple.

Read Romans chapter 6. Verse 14 says; For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Grace is therefore the new covenant, which Christ gave unto us when he established the law upon the cross. To have grace means to be freed from the law, and from sin. If the first century Hebrew did not know this then he did not know the scripture. Just as you do not know the scripture.

And no, the "brothers" of this site do not show patience, not for me or for the scripture or for God. If you did you would read the scripture and see what it is that God has to say to his children, rather than attack my every word. I have said, let him who cannot sin cast the first stone. That was unheeded just as the rest of what I have said was. Do I cast pearls before swine? Then, let he who cannot sin cast the next stone, or should you all expose your own ignorance further?
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2004 :  07:13:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and salutations in the name of my King, Solace:

Our peace returns unto us.
quote:
Originally posted by Solace
I am a son of God. I cannot sin. Let he who can say the same throw the first stone.
I thank God that the police force are present today to keep me from harm by them who would kill me. And such men are you, for you will do anything to keep the truth from being spoken.
You accuse me of belonging to a system of men because I say do not fear men or demons.

Firstly, you vitriolic little man, you state, "I cannot sin", but you bear false witness against the brethren [See bolded and underlined portion of quote above.]

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Next, you say that someone here accused you of belonging to a system because [for this cause] you say you do not fear men or demons. Who accused you of that for those causes?

And you thank God for the police force, a force that, at least here in America, will incarcerate men for reading certain of the Scripture in "public places"! To believe it is "the police force", which keeps you from harm, not only shows your ignorance, but is also putting your faith in the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. amein
[Note: At least here in America it has been emphatically stated by kosmokrator's agents that it is not their job to protect us.]

And lastly, you ask if there be any here who can say that they are without sin...obviously, anyone can; the question would remain however, whether it be the truth.

It is also apparent that your heart is not filled with love, but with venom and hatred; Get thee behind me satan.

brother Robert: a child of Yahowah, brother and friend to the Anointed King/High Priest of the commonwealth of Yisra'el

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1Yahu’hanan [John] 1:9

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 1Yahu’hanan [John] 5:16-17

fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 17 Nov 2004 08:56:21
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Solace
Regular Member

Canada
40 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2004 :  10:17:08  Show Profile  Click to see Solace's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Would you bring me back under the law? And you call me little? If the accusation was not made as I stated it, it was certainly insinuated.

Where did I say that I have not sinned? I said that I CANNOT sin. But I did not say that I have not sinned. The old man that did commit sin died with Christ, or did you miss that part of my posts? Obviously you did, because you also missed that part of the Bible.

Maybe instead of wasting your time trying to come up with what you perceive to be creative little insults, you might want to read your bible and understand it.

Yes, there is a sin unto death. All manner of blasphemy shall be forgiven men, save for blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. I thank God that I cannot sin, so I have no need to fear committing that sin which is unto death. Can you say the same?

You think that because I speak harshly to you of things of God that I have no love in my heart? You preach death and bondage and call it gospel, and for that you would have me speak kind words. Be grateful that it is only I that speaks to you with wrath now, for the day will come that if you continue to lie about God's word that the Lord himself will speak to you with wrath.

But, let's have it your way. I am a vitriolic and little man. My "interpretation" of the gospel is flawed and incorrect. Then you, the wise and just counsellor, might you explain to me the vitriolic and little man, the truth of the gospel. Enlighten me to the truth of the scripture. You accuse me of having no love, then if you have any love whatsoever you can surely do me the small kindness of explaing to me the gospel and the truth about sin, the law and grace. We will see then whose doctrine is sound, and who teaches the gospel of God.
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2004 :  06:00:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let us start with this, never have I claimed to be a counsellor, “wise and just”, or otherwise, so go put your labels on someone else! But, if you are suggesting that the Eternal Moral Law, the Ten Commandments of Yahowah, those set in stone, were nailed to the cross, it is OUR humble opinion, that nothing could be further from the truth, if you are, for one second in time, saying we now have license to be unrighteous [Unjust; contrary to law and equity], then it is you who speaks with a forked tongue. Thus you CAN sin, and have, by bearing false witness against your neighbor(s), when you stated emphatically that the brethren here wish to kill you. I, for one, have never had that inclination and doubt seriously that anyone else here has held such a silly notion. So, if it is your wish to play the part of a martyr, we strongly suggest you go somewhere where someone may buy into that rubbish.
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances [G1378] that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross…
G1378
dogma

Thayer Definition:
1) doctrine, decree, ordinance
1a) of public decrees
1b) of the Roman Senate
1c) of rulers
2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment…

DOGMA, n. [Gr., to think; L.] A settled opinion; a principle, maxim or tenet; a doctrinal notion, particularly in matters of faith and philosophy; as the dogmas of the church; the dogmas of Plato.
And if Lawlessness is what you are teaching for doctrine, then we give your words back to you; “…the day will come that if you continue to lie about God's word that the Lord himself will speak to you with wrath.”
But why do we waste our time, we perceive you are not here to learn, you are here to accuse and to disrupt, nothing more. Hence, if I tell you, ye will not believe: work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. It is written: Give not that which is set apart unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. It is done.

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise ‘Elohiym [Ruler], be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amein.


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 18 Nov 2004 06:18:10
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Solace
Regular Member

Canada
40 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2004 :  08:31:17  Show Profile  Click to see Solace's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Thus the proof, you have not even enough love in your heart to explain to me, someone you perceive to be incorrect in the word of the God, the matter of the gospel. Who now lacks love among us? Yet you come again with accusations to codemn me; where was your condemnation for the man here who brought false witness against me when he said that I advocate harming others? But, let me do as I said I would do, expose your ignorance of the truth that is written in the scriptures.

I do wish you would at least have the courtesy to post where you find these scriptures. From your post, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances [G1378] that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross…" I wish I could remember where this is located. But since it is you who posted it, I can only assume you agree with it. Before that you said this, "But, if you are suggesting that the Eternal Moral Law, the Ten Commandments of Yahowah, those set in stone, were nailed to the cross, it is OUR humble opinion, that nothing could be further from the truth," and in your definition of G1378 you give, "2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses" you admit yourself that the law was indeed, after all, nailled to the cross. And you accuse me of speaking with a forked tongue? Here you prove exactly that which you seek to disprove. I must hand it to you, I couldn't have done a better job of it myself.

You who make the law your boast, listen carefully to what the word of God says unto you. This is the truth, that men such as yourselves did kill such as I many times throughout history to hide away. That is no lie, for God himself is witness to that truth. Here is the revelation of grace, that we should no longer be owing to the law.

Let he who would read the word of God and believe Him, read what I post here, for this is not my opinion nor my interpretation, this is scripture;

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:19 Now we know whatsoever the law sayeth, it sayeth to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped and all the world become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe: for there is no difference.
23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The truth is so obvious here that I do not even need to explain it, but there is more, much more:

Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Remember that I told you already that sin is the trangression of the law, as it was written in 1 John 3:4.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we walk in newness of life.
5 For if we be planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

And it goes on, and I encourage all to read the rest, but I will go to verse 14 to best illustrate my point.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

And yes, there is plenty more. Let me say it again, the truth of sin, the law and of grace is so obvious here that I don't even need to explain it. If you disagree with what is written here then you disagree with the Bible.

Romans 7:1 Know ye not brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Down to verse 4.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore my brethren ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit from God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Let me say again, argue not with me if you disagree, but make your argument with the scripture. How then does the law play the part for the believer? Let us read on.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Then Paul goes on to explain how sin dwells in the flesh, so that in the flesh is no good thing. For as it was written, there shall no flesh be justified in his sight. Thus the flesh must die, and die it did upon the cross, just as his flesh did die, so that the sin of the flesh be destroyed with it.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit.
2 For the law of the spirit of life that is Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Again, read the verses in between for sake of your own knowledge, but for sake of quickening the explanation, I will go further.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness.

This next verse goes back to what I was telling you all the other day.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Read again Romans 4:14. Would you then make faith void? Would you make the promise have no effect?

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which follow not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at the stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Do you seek redemption by faith or by doing the law?

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

So then what is required of us to find redemption?

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

That is all that is required; to believe it and to confess it. That is how you receive grace. Doing the works of the law is NOT required to attain grace.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Work and grace cancel each other out. What did the scritpure say of Abraham and his faith?

Romans 4:3 For what sayeth the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham believed God, that's it. That's all that any of us have to do to attain righteousness.

I posted this before, but you ignored it. I will post it again, although you will likely ignore it again. Yet I will do it for the sake of hope.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

How then can you who practice the law justify this scripture?

Romans is filled with the teachings of freedom from the law and sin, as is indeed much of the new testament.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

and down to verse 9

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

You sought to bring accusation against me, that by the law I had sinned by bringing false witness against my neighbour. There is nothing false in what I said, for you will deny the truth of the scripture even now, and that is a worse crime by far than killing me. By denying the truth of the scriptures that I have written here, you kill what I have said, and I would prefer a thousand times that you kill me rather than the truth of the scripture. Remember this in parting;

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

If you commit sin, if you CAN sin, then know that your father is the devil. So sayeth the scripture, so must it be true.

If you wish to call this the doctrine of lawlessness, and condemn the teaching, then you condemn also the word of God.
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True North
Advanced Member

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2004 :  09:01:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For those who have ears and eyes to hear and see ... The gospel is ... the Kingdom.

The King rules with a rod of Iron in that Kingdom real time ... the good news of the gospel ... the Kingdom.



TN
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Linda June
Junior Member

USA
22 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2004 :  16:06:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello All,

I'm new here, but I've been following the fray of the past several days between, it seems, Solace and everyone else.

Okay, so the topic is about changing Christians into legal fictions by the secular "government," right? And Solace seems to think that abiding by the change is no big deal and that those who think it is a big deal are living in a spirit of fear, correct? And those who think it is a big deal think that people like Solace are aiding and abetting a grave evil against the Kingdom of God, am I right so far?

But Solace thinks that he is not aiding and abetting an evil against the children of the Kingdom because some scriptures promise that we cannot sin and that Jesus' sacrifice justifies all things. (I thought Scripture says that He "reconciles all things to himself." A slight difference, I think.) Do I represent your argument properly, Solace?

And now everyone is slinging accusations and insults all around. That much needs no interpretation. For shame, you guys.

So here's my take on the discussion. As a true believer, baptized and all, I certainly can sin because faith does not abrogate free will. So, if my fleshcorpse gets jumped up and leads my desires astray, say, in defense of my opinions, or in lust for the fleshcorpse of a handsome male, for example, I can, and have, sinned. Yet, it is not the new me in Jesus Christ who does the awful deed, since He cannot sin or even desire to. Rather, it's the old flesh, which is in a constant state of war with my spirit, that sinned. But how to separate out the sinning me from the "cannot sin" me since we occupy the same body? Well, it can't be done until after this age. Our Lord knew that. That's why he offers His mercy and forgiveness every time I sin and then repent of it. Isn't it the heighth of folly and arrogance to say that since the new me cannot sin, then I, Linda June, have not ever sinned since my baptism? Of course it is. I certainly have. I wish that I hadn't and that I won't ever again, but this flesh still gets hungry and greedy and scared and has plenty of hormones.

So back to the topic: Is it evil to permit or play along with the "goverment's" conversion of our lawful status into a legal fiction as evidenced by the all-capital lettered name?

Let me ask, if the secular powers that be impose this conversion by hook and by crook and thereby make it impossible to buy or sell (one's goods and services) in one's proper name without numbers and bank accounts, then how can it be a good thing? How is it a good thing to exterminate the peaceful actions of a man's free will? And if one applies for and receives the conversion, thereby perpetuating and giving life to the mindset and system that isn't good, then isn't that one participating in an evil thing, no matter what the justification? Will Our Divive Lord approve of causing all, both great and small alike, to receive that which looks an awful lot like the fabled Mark of the Beast? I don't know how He could. And if He disapproves, then I don't know how one could take the subject at all lightly.

If one wishes to move about freely on the common roads in a peaceful manner, or work for himself or another without "government"-issued identification, why should anyone set traps for him to prevent him from doing so? Yet that is exactly what happens.

Is it fear of man, Solace, to reject that system, even if it means living like a refugee, being cast into prison or, in some cases lately, getting killed? Or is it fear of Our Lord's disappointment if we continue to give life and permission, both implicit and explicit, to a demonically-inspired "government?" Again, is it fear of man to accept his secular system, to the extreme detriment of those who would live outside of it, in order to not attract the attention of his government's constabulary or in order to feel secure against one's fear of potential murderers who are, after all, just men? And, is it fear of man or God to accept man's arbitrary regulations in order to receive the benefits of man's theft of one to pay another? One is a servile and self-serving fear, the other is the filial fear of one's Father in Heaven who would not have his children treat each other like slaves and chattel.

What say you?
Linda June
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2004 :  16:32:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings,
and well said, Linda June.
John, in his first letter to the ecclesia mentions three distinct groups: little children-young men {women}- father's.
There is confusion in the House when children dictate The Way {home}.
The finest saints mentioned in the Book of Life, at times, defied the GOVERNMENT of man's making.
Roman's 8:29...that he {Yahushua} might be the firstborn {listen up} among many brethern.
And the Government shall be upon His shoulder. {Isaiah 9:6} Messiah is, or can be used in the plural, depending.
There is a veil cast over the nations, which is being removed. If ye have eyes to see.
Peter was not yet converted when he stated that his Master paid tribute taxes. Yahushua pulled him aside and gave him a good going over. The Children are free, but the children of the world system are not yet free. Repentence is not a one time thing.
Blessing from the Eternal King, who has an eternal Kingdom.
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halbertson
Regular Member

USA
29 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2004 :  17:09:36  Show Profile  Click to see halbertson's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
THANK YOU, Linda June -- well stated. It is painful to me to see these ad hominem attacks on this forum of supposed believers. FOR SHAME!!

I understand scripture to teach us that Jesus, as GOD the Son, sacrificed his life for the sins of the entire world -- permanently! Nothing that ANY human can do can change this gift to humankind. (I even think that any human who believes that they can UNDO GODs sacrifice by any human action, commits an incredible affront against GOD!)

Each person must individually accept this gift by Faith alone in Christ alone to complete the gift acceptance.

Once a person accepts the gift of Christ's sacrifice, nothing they do can "undo" the sacrifice and the gift of GOD's Love by Christ. When we commit a sin of any magnitude (especially attitudinal sins -- anger, malice, greed, jealousy, etc.) we have stepped over into our carnal, selfish nature and out of submission to the Holy Spirit. In this carnal spirit our minds are blinded to learning the Biblical Doctrine we MUST have -- we have pushed the Holy Spirit out of our life.

To "clear the air" and allow the Holy Spirit back into our life to teach us His lessons, we need to use I John 1:9 and rebound out of our carnality and back into right standing with GOD. We simply need to acknowledge to GOD, the Father (and not to anyone else), the sin we (with conscious thought) know we comitted and He is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness -- ALL those sins we did not remember to tell our Father.

GODs Grace Plan is very plain ... He will work with us through several stages of contact: knocking on the door of our heart, discipline, punishment and, for the unrepentant, death. He works with ALL believers to help us complete the journey to eternity with him as Jesus determined on the cross and freely gave to each living soul who accepts the gift by Faith alone in Christ alone.

This simple method of living our lives as Believers has been greatly complicated by "religion" and "theology" theories as expressed by human leaders. BEWARE!

Howard in Dallas
________________________________

Never let a Minimum-Wage Person upset your day!!
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2004 :  18:32:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, Linda June:
Peace be unto the house.
We agree, well said!! Thank you very much for your input.
As for me, I humbly apologize to this Ecclesia for the friction that I have been party to, as it serves no useful purpose.
brother Robert:

fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.
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