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 The Coming of Christ
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TomL
Regular Member

USA
28 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2011 :  02:30:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
First, let's get rid of the falacy of the "second coming of Christ." That term is found nowhere in scripture, at least not in reputable translations.

It is not that I don't believe in the coming of Christ, I do. It's a matter of timing. I believe the coming of Christ had already occurred.

The Bible is an historical book. It was not written to or about anyone living today. It was written specifically to the people of that time and for their understanding and edification. So, how would they have understood it. They probably thought that the coming of Christ was imminent in their lifetime. And they were right.

II Peter 3:9 states, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentence." Peter was dealing with those who who have been upsetting early Christendom by questioning the Lord's promise to return. People fully expected His return in their lifetime.

Now, why would the people of that time expect the return or coming of Christ in their lifetime? Because it was part of the Apostolic message. James 5:7&8 states, "Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord IS AT HAND." The imminent return of Christ was taught by the apostles. My first question for you is this, "Did the apostles lie?"

Now, let's look at some of the words of Jesus. Matthew 16:27&28 states, "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly I say to you, there are some standing here who SHALL NOT TASTE death till they see the Son of Man COMING in His Kingdom." This indicates that the coming of Christ in His kingdom would be in the lifetime of SOME of the disciples.

Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give it's light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Here's what we have so far; 1) The apostles taught the immenent return of Christ in their lifetime. 2) Jesus indicated that His coming would be in the lifetime of some of His disciples.

But, now we come to Matthew 24. Jesus had just been in the temple in Jerusalem condemning the scribes and the Pharisees, for all their wickedness down through the years. And at the end of this diatribe, Jesus said, "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." - 23:36. Now, when Jesus said, "this generation," do you suppose he was referring to some far off distant generation? He just got finished condemning them for all their wickedness, and then He says, their punishment wouldn't occur till some far off generation. Yeah right. 23:37 established that they were in fact in Jerusalem. And that is where Matthew 24 begins.

Matthew 24 starts with Jesus and the disciples leaving the temple. Jesus showed them the temple, and told them it would be destroyed. They asked this question, "when will these things be ? And what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?" Jesus then told them of unprecedented great tribulation that would befall Jerusalem. Not, America. And, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS, the sun would be darkened, etc. Then you will see the sign of the Son of Man... then they will see the Son of Man COMING IN HIS KINGDOM, not thousands of years later, but immediately after the great tribulation that would befall Jerusalem. Well, that great tribulation did occur just as Jesus foretold, culminating in the desecration and destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

There you have it, the case for the coming of Christ in 70 AD. However, there is much more in Scripture that confirms what is written here. This little article simply is the beginning. However, I do believe this is enough to establish the fact that the coming of Christ did indeed take place in 70AD.

All Scripture quotations from the NKJV

bjm
New Member

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2011 :  07:21:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Speaking of beginning there is no proof Christ ever came, why not start there or show the body.
Additionally where are the writings of the 70ad advent as the scriptures were being written along the same time?
Matthew 13:13 very few understand anything including the apostles


verily i am

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TomL
Regular Member

USA
28 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2011 :  09:19:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bjm

Speaking of beginning there is no proof Christ ever came, why not start there or show the body.
Additionally where are the writings of the 70ad advent as the scriptures were being written along the same time?
Matthew 13:13 very few understand anything including the apostles

verily i am


You are right. There is no "proof" that Christ came physically. But, Christ made statements that indicates His coming in His Kingdome would occur in the lifetime of the disciples/apostles. Consider Matthew 16.27&28. How do you understand these verses?



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bjm
New Member

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2011 :  16:57:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think it is more babel(on). Did Noah's generation end when he stepped on the boat and how long was that time span? Did health laws end with Peter sitting on the roof confused about the gentiles and someone adding therefore to the scriptures? God forbid. Or how about Saul was he a self appointed apostle? How many churches do we need? Woe to them and until the veil is lifted all is vein.

Also I know of no scripture telling of the 70a.d. advent, can you add to this?
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TomL
Regular Member

USA
28 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2011 :  23:10:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bjm

Also I know of no scripture telling of the 70a.d. advent, can you add to this?



Matthew 24 deals with the great tribulation in Jerusalem, and the destruction of the temple. As is written in the OP,
quote:
Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give it's light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


Jesus said that "Immediately after the tribulation of those days," several things would happen, among them, "the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and great glory." The tribulation of those days culminated with the destruction of the temple in 70ad, which is recorded in history.

Now, how do you understand Matthew 16.27&28?

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debbie
New Member

Australia
1 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  10:50:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think Acts 2 clearly states the position here,
Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day.
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

These passages clearly state that this is the fulfillment of the prophet Joel. Joel is talking about the great and terrible day of the Lord, who can withstand. He is talking about the great signs and wonders as God pours out his spirit, make sure and have a look at what Joel is saying.
Now have a look at the effects of the current teachings of the church, which is infact extremely destructive in putting the church to sleep. In fact if you believe we are on the door step of the great tribulation, there are those who believe they are saved just waiting for the train to take them home to glory, (the is the pretrib rapture) they don't have to do anything as it is all God's plan. Or (end of the trib, rapture when Christ comes back to rein) are so frightened with what they see happen around them they do not oppose evil. I know Christians who will not buy a house because it is the end times, well every generation has believed it was the end times. What an amazing deception by our enemy to put the church to sleep. If we are not living in the end times, then the victory will be ours, for those who love the Lord. So, put on the armour of God, pick up the sword to the spirit, the Word, and take it into all the nations. As it is now, the world says to the church, oh, you have to accept, same sex marriage, abortion, not smacking your children, and the church just goes along with it all. Well what if the church stopped believing we are all doomed, and instead said to the world, no I don't think I am going to do it your way anymore, I reckon we are going to do it God's way. No more compromise, and how about the long term plans for the churches where are they, how about starting true Christian Universities, teaching creation etc. and other really big long term projects, a generation that believes it is doomed, is living as if they were.
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  23:07:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[quote]Originally posted by debbie

I think Acts 2 clearly states the position here,
Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day.
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

These passages clearly state that this is the fulfillment of the prophet Joel. Joel is talking about the great and terrible day of the Lord, who can withstand. He is talking about the great signs and wonders as God pours out his spirit, make sure and have a look at what Joel is saying.
Now have a look at the effects of the current teachings of the church, which is infact extremely destructive in putting the church to sleep. In fact if you believe we are on the door step of the great tribulation, there are those who believe they are saved just waiting for the train to take them home to glory, (the is the pretrib rapture) they don't have to do anything as it is all God's plan. Or (end of the trib, rapture when Christ comes back to rein) are so frightened with what they see happen around them they do not oppose evil. I know Christians who will not buy a house because it is the end times, well every generation has believed it was the end times. What an amazing deception by our enemy to put the church to sleep. If we are not living in the end times, then the victory will be ours, for those who love the Lord. So, put on the armour of God, pick up the sword to the spirit, the Word, and take it into all the nations. As it is now, the world says to the church, oh, you have to accept, same sex marriage, abortion, not smacking your children, and the church just goes along with it all. Well what if the church stopped believing we are all doomed, and instead said to the world, no I don't think I am going to do it your way anymore, I reckon we are going to do it God's way. No more compromise, and how about the long term plans for the churches where are they, how about starting true Christian Universities, teaching creation etc. and other really big long term projects, a generation that believes it is doomed, is living as if they were.

Dear Debbie,
well said and amen the fact that what Peter stated in that day did not happen as Yoel wrote...in their day.
The rapture theory of flying away other than through a natural death is demonic by nature. One of those final deceptions...promised in scripture. Tom Paine hated these lies sent by Yahuweh through certain beings. But recorded history is replete wsith false facts. As is much of the new covenant writings, which are copies of copies of copies.
Not to be said about scriptures so far as we know the torah-old covenant writings.

Bad can of worms I bring up and apologize as we discuss what you were writing of, ok?
Anyone can read the whole of what Peter spoke of and what is written by Yoel and KNOW, Peter was not flowing in a Pure Spirit. It is all recorded for us to decide what was is and will still be.
The Great Day of Yahuweh is actually THE day of vengence. And Yahushua {aka Jesus} did not know the day nor the time. Kinda proves he was not The Father, eh????
But back to Peter. What did he know? Enough to turn chicken and wimp out on his so called "best bud" Yep.Would you or I give prominent esoteric, life changing, well history changing, earth chattering knowlege {gnosis} to a known traitor? Not me nor on my watch?
Peter was a hollow rock, i.e. the name?

Debbie, real Christianity if such a thing ever was:
is a seed the Sower planted, good-bad-stoney ground, Matthew 13 I think.
A seed to reproduce must die in the ground, actually rot and finally spring forth to a new life.
We ain't never going back to Christian Universities or even anything similar to a christian culture. Near 2,000 years of gthat should solidify the stupidity of anything Christian.
Mother of God {Miriam] as RCC idiots spouse? Gods only son as Protestents spouce? Yah knows what those usury fools protest against anymore?
Christianity is rotten to its core. But a seed planted will resurrrect or so I Stand for.
There was a rocker-roll somg years ago heard even down-under:\\
in the Year 2525;;;if man is still alive. Ok?
Mankind, Adam kind will still be alive. Rest assured and sleep well.
We elohim made dinasaurs and Father Yahuweh Elohim looked down in disgust way way long TIME AGO. Don't worry, this too, shall oass and the only thing left of Christianity will be,
a drop of Blood. That is all it took to effect the Eternal change, Why? Ain't our sins so to speak. Nope, He made us and we not Him.
This whole situation is so far above the gold diggers, the mammon seeker,s. Which is 98% OF all babtised cretins circa 2011.
Debbie, you partake of usury? Interest-mortgages-car loans-Aus. SSI. payments? Well if one does, one is as, well, as a sodomite, abortionist, and if you pay tithes, i.e. taxes to the Australian beasty system then you directly are killing Iraqi children...as your tithes buy bullets. Want to point another finger? Three at you in return!

I surmise it is time you Deborah leave the church and be called out, which is the ecclesia. I do know you mean well. And once One is called out and answers the call, one than can be chosen. For many are called {out} and but a few chosen, and after all that, one more step. Which we need not discuss now.

p.s. the Giza pyramid, you know, the one Yahushua mentioned that He, ya, He, was the missing capstone, [of course he was drunk and crazy} well that capstone pyramid theology symbolism is right here on the only folding cash in my posession right now. Damn there it is right here, and the capstone ain't sitting on the body of the pyramid....yet. And Peters symbolic prophecy is certainly not FULFILLED, yet. Yet being the key word.

Teaching creationism? Lets see, wasn't the sun created on the 4th day? What declared the first three days? Did GOD screw up making dinasaurs and destroy them on a rag day?
You Cretin's are not yet of age and thus shall never be given Power. Yahuweh rather give it to Satan as per Yob ch. 1 and 2, as at least satan can keep his word.
Hard to chew on eh?
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TomL
Regular Member

USA
28 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2011 :  15:41:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you Debbie and Robert James. I feared I would be alone here.

May I add Hebrews 1.1-2a, "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son." The writer of Hebrews plainly shows that Jesus appeared to speak to His Ekklesia in the LAST DAYS.

Debbie, seeing where you are from, I hope you are well.

God bless.

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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2011 :  14:29:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

TomL,
feeling alone?
Eliyah felt that way too. So do all the saints at one time and another. YaH told Eliyah that 7,000 un-numbered, i.e. not social security numbered, were supporting him in the Heavenly Court.
mark-name-numbered.


I would like to enjoin you to something:

suppose the book of the Acts...is an on-going experience. Like in, chapter 554? Ok?
I very much "believe in Yahushua {Jesus}. I also believe in Th. Jefferson, Socrates and such. What are we talking here? I believe in Adam...the most denigrated man in recorded history. Blame Adam? What for? Jumping into sin to save his wife? Blame? Hell, he is a hero. Even Yahushua, aka Jesus, had a belly button, and Adam didn't. Who is special now? Who instituted circumcision? Adam. Recorded in the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Abram re-instituted this rite. The Dead booklet even has pictures to assure the children of what was cut. A covenant.

That writer of Hebrews-the letter, sorely missed what is the last days/ But forgive him as he no doubt had Roman Xe {modern hitmen} chase him. Or, these. LAST DAYS just drag on and on and on.
I've never met a Jew who has any clue as to what is written in the N.T. letter to the hebrews. Have you? Revelations 2:9 and 3:9 come to mind. As does the first sentence in James...ever read it?
Don't that writer of Hebrew as you say, also mention:

and to you that look for him, shall he appear, without sin {this time}...a second time. I have a real problem meeting anyone who has met him the first time, let alone the second time.



quote:
Originally posted by TomL

Thank you Debbie and Robert James. I feared I would be alone here.

May I add Hebrews 1.1-2a, "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son." The writer of Hebrews plainly shows that Jesus appeared to speak to His Ekklesia in the LAST DAYS.

Debbie, seeing where you are from, I hope you are well.

God bless.



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TomL
Regular Member

USA
28 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2011 :  22:39:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert-James


TomL,
feeling alone?
Eliyah felt that way too. So do all the saints at one time and another. YaH told Eliyah that 7,000 un-numbered, i.e. not social security numbered, were supporting him in the Heavenly Court.
mark-name-numbered.


I would like to enjoin you to something:

suppose the book of the Acts...is an on-going experience. Like in, chapter 554? Ok?
I very much "believe in Yahushua {Jesus}. I also believe in Th. Jefferson, Socrates and such. What are we talking here? I believe in Adam...the most denigrated man in recorded history. Blame Adam? What for? Jumping into sin to save his wife? Blame? Hell, he is a hero. Even Yahushua, aka Jesus, had a belly button, and Adam didn't. Who is special now? Who instituted circumcision? Adam. Recorded in the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Abram re-instituted this rite. The Dead booklet even has pictures to assure the children of what was cut. A covenant.

That writer of Hebrews-the letter, sorely missed what is the last days/ But forgive him as he no doubt had Roman Xe {modern hitmen} chase him. Or, these. LAST DAYS just drag on and on and on.
I've never met a Jew who has any clue as to what is written in the N.T. letter to the hebrews. Have you? Revelations 2:9 and 3:9 come to mind. As does the first sentence in James...ever read it?
Don't that writer of Hebrew as you say, also mention:

and to you that look for him, shall he appear, without sin {this time}...a second time. I have a real problem meeting anyone who has met him the first time, let alone the second time.



quote:
Originally posted by TomL

Thank you Debbie and Robert James. I feared I would be alone here.

May I add Hebrews 1.1-2a, "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son." The writer of Hebrews plainly shows that Jesus appeared to speak to His Ekklesia in the LAST DAYS.

Debbie, seeing where you are from, I hope you are well.

God bless.







That's interesting. I wrote an article called, "The Beginning," I think you would enjoy. You can see it at: http://sonofdavid.myfreeforum.org/The_Beginning_about7.html

Have a good day.

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