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jsnyder3395
Regular Member
USA
39 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2015 : 20:38:44
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Caleb, et. al.
I have been associated with the Baptist Church, Calvary Gospel Temple, Word of Life Fellowship, Church of God (Not Armstrong or a splinter of his work) and having moved to Texas I am seeking a permanent local church home.
I give up! Nothing is addressed, over and over again.
Here again, a sweep of the hand and all the documentation is gone.
Caleb wrote: And it [The Catechism] doesn't contradict anything I have said.
But Caleb does not address specifics. He ignores the document's words, and they again are not addressed.
Your assertion of “No Contradiction” is highly questionable!
It is true that the Decalogue is not called the New Covenant in the Catechism. But the principles that I have asserted are also asserted in the Catholic Catechism. You denied the truth of the assertions when I made the statements, how about the Catechism’s statements which are asserting exactly the same thing? One is sufficient, but I will give two.
Statement by James: Loving God and loving your neighbor is the essence of the LAW of the Ten Commandments. The first four give boundaries of loving God, and the last six deal with our neighbor. It is stated so several times in the “New Testament” books. The Bible plainly states this! Loving your neighbor is clarified in the Ten Commandments!
Caleb said: You, by contrast, take every mention of Love, including these, and point us back to the Ten Commandments. Jesus pointed back to a command out of the Law of Moses, but NOT to the Ten Commandments. You have not followed his example!
Caleb queried: On what basis do you equate the Ten Commandments with the "Love" that Jesus spoke of?
Vatican Catechism: THE TEN COMMANDMENTS STATE WHAT IS REQUIRED IN THE LOVE OF GOD AND LOVE OF NEIGHBOR. The first three concern love of God, and the other seven love of neighbor. (the Catechism also mentions that the numbering of the commands in the Ten are varied in time and translations in case the four-six numbering vs the three-seven numbering becomes a focal point)
James stated: What about ANY of the Ten Commandments? Show how it is permissible by God to violate any of these Ten. These are the epitome of love. Love God (first four) and Love you neighbor (next six). Jesus said so, James said so. (Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5, Matthew 12:8)
Caleb Penned: These [love] are indeed the ONLY commandments of the New Covenant, and John agrees completely with Paul in DISPOSING OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS by way of the simpler commandment.
Vatican Catechism: By his life and by his preaching JESUS ATTESTED TO THE PERMANENT VALIDITY OF THE DECALOGUE.
(Decalogue is the Ten Commandments, in case one would like to weasel out)
These statements are contradictory. There is no search for giving truth or receiving truth. There is no desire to examine the word with all readiness of mind then search the scriptures to see if these things are so.
Thank you for the effort. The Word and the Catechism are simply brushed aside with that perfected "sweep of the hand."
Again Caleb puts words into my mouth with regard to "works." His analysis is his, not mine.
May the Spirit of God work in you all. The Spirit of Love and the Spirit of Truth. Perhaps we will meet in the Kingdom of God because of His love and grace.
James Snyder
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Edited by - jsnyder3395 on 28 Sep 2015 09:49:03 |
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Caleb
Advanced Member
Philippines
209 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2015 : 11:13:52
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The reason I won't argue with the teaching on the Ten Commandments is because it is all correct, for what it is.
The Old Covenant continue to apply today, to all who choose to live under the law. There is never a point when stealing, for example, becomes permissible.
But to give just a glimpse, what is the purpose of a command of "Thou shalt not steal" when you own nothing and people hold everything in common? It becomes irrelevant. You are provided for as you have need, so there is no motivation for you to steal. And you own nothing, so how is possible for others to steal from you? As it relates to you, the commandment simply no longer applies.
For those who choose to continue to play the game of "private property ownership", Thou shalt not steal remains critical for them and others to obey and to enforce. We live in a world where people must choose, and so the Vatican knows full well that it must administer BOTH covenants.
The problem should be obvious: NO ONE is living under the New Covenant. No Christian you know has sold all that they have, given the money to the poor, and followed Jesus. There is not one group of believers who do not consider anything that they have to be their own, but hold all things in common.
James, in looking for a new church, you are NOT looking a church that follows the example set in Acts chapter 4, and if you did look, you COULD NOT FIND ONE!
In short, NO Christian that you know is living under the New Covenant. So yes, the Old Covenant still applies, and is important for you to obey.
But the problem is, NO Christian that you know, including yourself, even knows what the New Covenant is! And like yourself, most are horribly confused and believe what you believe, that it is NO DIFFERENT to the Old Covenant!
The confusion is obvious when you take a position that claims:
1) Abraham had the Ten Commandments
2) The Ten Commandments are the New Covenant
3) Israel at Mount Sinai affirmed the New Covenant
4) We are living under the New Covenant today
What you are really saying is that NOTHING HAS EVER CHANGED. Jesus brought in nothing "New". He just dusted of the "old" New Covenant and gave it a fresh coat of paint.
In fact, not one of the four of your positions I have listed above is true. You are discussing the Old Covenant in every case except Abraham, and trying to make a case from Scripture for the confusion that most Christians struggle under today.
Frankly James, I am miffed. I thought that maybe a few people would have the integrity to admit the answer that I would have given to the original question only a few years ago.
Q: "What is the New Covenant?"
A: "I haven't got a clue!"
This is what started me on the search for an answer. I knew that no explanation I had ever heard even came close to being a satisfactory answer. You see, I speak English. I actually know what the word "New" means, as amazing as that may seem.
The last thing I expected was for someone to show up and say:
A: "The New Covenant is the Old Covenant. Now let me give you a few dozen proof-texts to convince you of what every church already teaches."
Keeping the Ten Commandments is a burden. Israel couldn't do it. We cannot do it today. But you want us to give it "One more try", just in case we missed something the first 7 Billion times around. This is the very definition of insanity. You would have us try a completely failed system, "just one more time."
It is completely mystifying to me why I should have to explain the English language to people. I read my Bible, and looked at what my church was doing, and I saw the disconnect. Even when I bought their lies that explained away the story of the Rich Young Ruler and Acts chapter 4, I STILL saw the disconnect. There are just TOO MANY inconsistencies between the PLAIN WORDS of scripture, as translated into English, and what the churches actually practice today.
So I can only conclude that you are living in denial, as is every Christian who cannot admit that the Apostles practiced a form of Socialism. This thread is for those who wish to stop living in denial, and finally come to grips with what Jesus taught, which is the New Covenant. It was not intended to be a place for the failed experiment of modern Christianity to place its whitewashed sepulcher on open display as a form of self-justification.
Honi soit qui mal y pense |
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Manuel
Advanced Member
USA
762 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2015 : 14:02:05
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Greetings Caleb, James, and all,
Jesus said "Every man to his family and
his belongings." I think that means exactly what
it says. Now, as far as giving up all belongings was
to the Apostles/Ministers, so they can distribute free will offerings
to the needy and, make them stronger, not weaker.
When one thinks of the one purse, then that is another entirely
different animal, like that golden calf mentioned from history.
Blessings,
Manuel
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jsnyder3395
Regular Member
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2015 : 20:35:05
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"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Heb 8:13 KJV)
This was authored by the Holy Spirit through the author of Hebrews 2000 years ago. Perhaps this is not in the Douay-Rheims version? How about the Vulgate? Or perhaps vanish away does not mean what the English would indicate, since you read plain English. Therefore Vatican administers the Old Covenant against the statement of the Holy Scripture, is that correct? Let others know.
James Snyder
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Edited by - jsnyder3395 on 10 Oct 2015 20:39:53 |
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Caleb
Advanced Member
Philippines
209 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2015 : 00:36:48
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Hi James,
This really is the whole point.
If you knew WHAT the Old Covenant is, you would know WHY it is ready to vanish away, and you would know precisely which conditions must be fulfilled in order for it to no longer be necessary and/or useful.
I have actually given the answers here, but as you have argued with me at every turn you cannot see the sheer simplicity of the fact that once we stop using money, all Law that regulates commerce (the Ten Commandments) becomes superfluous and can be replaced with a single command to Love (agape) one another.
You will find this on every page of your New Testament, as well as throughout the Old Testament. And yet we are so married to the concept of money that we deny the very meaning in the words of Jesus, and it all goes downhill from there.
And thus, we remain firmly under the Old Covenant, under bondage to the Law, and in need of further forgiveness of sin, which is the breaking of that Law. Consequently, we continue to require an Old Covenant priesthood, offering regular sacrifices for sin. You will find exactly that in the catholic church.
No one wants to admit that they have lived their entire life in disobedience to the teaching of Christ. I know it's tough.
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
Go ahead and tell us once again that the hundreds of millions who earnestly struggle to obey the Ten Commandments while they continue to use money qualify as the "few there be" that Jesus was speaking of.
Honi soit qui mal y pense |
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Bondservant
Forum Administrator
382 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2015 : 13:19:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Bondservant
(from Page 1) Just a thought since usury came up... 'forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors' seems to tie in as well.
Caleb, I think it's time to discuss this now in light of your last post 
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living... - Mark 12:27 |
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Caleb
Advanced Member
Philippines
209 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2015 : 03:59:53
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Yes. Where to begin? Got it: Contract Law.
My particular journey involved the study of Law, and it was the connection between modern law and the Bible that originally brought me to these forums some 14 years ago. At that time I knew as much about Law as the average man on the street, which is less than Zero, since I got all my legal training from Perry Mason.
While it would be the connection with the scriptures that would motivate me, I would not be able to understand modern laws until I came to terms with the fact that they were ALL commercial in nature, and therefore founded upon contract law. While people engage in contracts every day, few are consciously aware that they invoke contract law just to buy a cup of coffee. Thus, people invoke the law of contract every day without actually understanding the details.
A Covenant is a form of contract, and so we cannot understand what the Old and New Covenants are without delving into contract law. And here is the real surprise: EVERY contract creates a debt, without fail. That is the very nature of the beast. You CANNOT contract without accepting a debt AND placing someone else under bondage to debt at the very same time.
I will explain this in more detail, if necessary. But for now the key point is that "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" is a DIRECT ATTACK on contract law.
A contract is enforceable. We have courts and bailiffs and police and prisons to enforce them. When you are in debt to another, they have the right to bring all this force to bear against you.
Forgiving the debts (on BOTH sides) involves a giving up of this right of enforcement. It sets aside the contract and contract law, leaving neither party with a right enforceable against the other. Contract law simply has no role to play in such a scenario.
So you can obey Jesus OR you can contract. Take your choice. You CANNOT do both!
But what is the alternative? How can we exchange things with others without without contracts, and thus without money? Jesus did not leave us without an answer. In fact, the very structure of scripture highlights the centrality of this one issue.
The Old Covenant enforces contract law. "Thou shalt not steal". Provision for just weights and measures. The list goes on and on.
This was not God's original plan. It was not his promise to Abraham. It cannot be found in the book of Job. Contract had no place in the Garden of Eden, where all of man's needs were freely provided for.
Jesus came to show us how to get back to God's original plan. That plan is indeed older than the "Old" Covenant. It was indeed the promise to Abraham. And our Bible today wastes no time in taking us straight to that plan.
When you are ready to dispose of the Old Covenant, and try something New, open up your New Testament to page 1. You will find yourself at the book of Matthew. Just start reading.
You will read two chapters about the birth of Jesus, two chapters about the start of Jesus' ministry, and then Matthew launches straight into the Sermon on Mount, which contains all the core teachings of Jesus in one place.
If I had one book of the Bible to take with me to a desert island, it would be Matthew. If I could only have 3 chapters, they would be the Sermon on the Mount. In these three chapters, Jesus lays out the entire New Covenant.
In roughly the center of the Sermon on the Mount we find, "the Lord's Prayer", which turns out to be a summary of the entire Sermon, and thus a summary of the New Covenant. If you understand the Lord's Prayer, there actually is nothing else that you need to know.
But at exactly the center of the seven clauses of the Lord's prayer, you will find:
"Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors"
And this one phrase tells us the single, critical requirement for undoing the Original Sin and getting back to God's perfect order as found in Eden.
This is also the ONLY clause that requires action on our part. It is also the very clause that Jesus refers back to in verses 14 and 15, which immediately follow the end of the prayer. He makes clear that if you fail to act on this one instruction, that you WILL NOT receive God's forgiveness. So much for salvation by "faith alone", unless you can be saved without being forgiven.
And the translators got this right, in the prayer at least. Jesus is speaking of debts or obligations specifically, rather than sins (or trespasses) more generally. For it is this concept of being able to enforce obligations (both monetary and non-monetary) on your fellow man, that caused everything to go wrong in the first place.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus gives us the solution as well. Under contract law we Buy and Sell. Each party must give something of value to the other. They must agree on an equal exchange. And yet the monetary side is actually unnecessary, if you just think about it. The use of money is an attempt to keep track of the value created and exchanged. But no one eats the money, or wears it, or does anything useful with it beyond facilitating the next contract.
So Jesus tells us to do things God's way, which is to "give freely". Jesus lays this out in separate provisions, lest we link them together the way that contract law does.
Instead of Selling, we are to, "Give to him that ask of you". Matthew 5:42
Instead of Buying, we are to, "Ask, and it shall be given you". Matthew 7:7
Later, in Matthew 10:8, we will have the entire Gospel, and thus the entire New Covenant summed up this way:
"Freely ye have received, freely give."
But if you want the full details on how to make this work, study the Sermon on the Mount.
What can be seen from these instructions is that they remove all obligation, and thus the need for the use of force to make contractual arrangements work.
When Israel made a contract with God, they were unable to stick to the terms. The entire balance of the Old Testament bears witness to this fact, together with Jesus' condemnation of the Pharisees.
So the New Covenant (contract), is that there IS NO CONTRACT! Not once in the entire New Testament will you find a representative group of believers binding themselves to obey the teachings of Jesus in a manner similar to that found in Exodus 19.
The debt to God, the obligation to obey the Ten Commandments and the rest of the Law of Moses, has been forgiven.
Finally, one must ask, what is it that would motivate people to give freely? If there is no monetary necessity, no reward, and no punishment, then why would they give anything? The answer is:
Love
Today we have only one debt/obligation, which Paul perfectly summarizes as:
"Owe no man anything, but to Love (agape)." Romans 13:8
Agape is translated "love", but this is imprecise. The King James used "charity", but this does not have the right implications for us today. Fortunately, the Greek dictionary shows us another English word that faithfully conveys the precise meaning of what Jesus (and Paul) taught. Agape is "Benevolence".
Benevolence is simply, "the will to do good". That is it. No conditions. No warm, fuzzy feelings. A simply decision that you will do good to others simply because you can.
This then is the only rule. "Act benevolently towards one another." This is a better translation of "Love one another."
With everything given freely, you cannot steal. A bit of pondering on this and it will soon be evident why all of the Ten Commandments simply become irrelevant.
This works only once we give up the concept of debt entirely, and the formula for doing so, the only mechanism that is GUARANTEED to eliminate debt from our world is:
"Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors."
Jesus had only one message. He just tried to convey it in multiple ways. Today, we get confused and think that he had multiple messages. No, they are all pointing us to the exact same thing.
Honi soit qui mal y pense |
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Bondservant
Forum Administrator
382 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2015 : 11:29:04
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There were two men who owed money to the same banker (a money-lending usurer who charges interest). One man owed him 500 silver coins (equivalent to 500 days of wages). The other man owed him 50 silver coins (equivalent to 50 days of wages). The men had no money, so they could not pay their debt. But the banker told the men that they did not have to pay him. [Luke 7:41-42 annotated]
Under the Law Merchant, the worldly law of commerce, a debt can only be paid off with commercial money.
Even though the men could have traded their labor in exchange for their debts, the banker wanted only commercial money in return. He wasn't interested in any barter or exchange. He wanted money... period. It was more advantageous for the banker to forgive the money-debts of the commercially bankrupt borrowers so that he could recover his losses by loaning money to those who would pay daily interest (profit) to him.
When we are freed from our worldly debts AND AT THE SAME TIME we free our worldly debtors, this removes us from the Roman Law Merchant.
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living... - Mark 12:27 |
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Caleb
Advanced Member
Philippines
209 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2015 : 11:58:42
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When I started this journey, the goal was to free myself from the Law Merchant. But I still wanted to use money. I did not understand that this meant I would continue to contract, and therefore to continue to impose debts on my fellow man, as well as accept such debts myself.
Needless to say, this plan failed. Because I continued to contract, I continued to be regulated by the Law Merchant, no matter how many different legal theories I tried. It was not until I discovered the full understanding of the New Covenant that I could see that the only way out from under bondage to the Law Merchant (= bondage to debt), was to give up my loyalty to the very concept of money altogether.
Today, the process found in Acts chapter 4, is accessible to us in a surprising place. One hint is the prominent use of the term "Common-wealth" by numerous governments across the globe.
Honi soit qui mal y pense |
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Bondservant
Forum Administrator
382 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2015 : 12:23:14
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Yes, the use of worldly currency or money is a contract. All paper currency in the world today is a promissory note of debt. Few understand this truth! The latter part of Acts 4 is the way to free us from Law Merchant bondage and is the New Covenant of His agape/benevolence. It should be obvious to all why the Christ overturned the banker's tables in the temple courtyard that had become a den of money-changing (for profit) thieves while under the Old Covenant.
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living... - Mark 12:27 |
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Caleb
Advanced Member
Philippines
209 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2015 : 12:53:28
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One of my most mind-blowing revelatory moments came as I was pondering the modern system of commerce. I realized that 3 things change hands, whereas a normal contract requires only two.
The Buyer hands over a promissory note, which is an acknowledgment of debt, as you say.
The Seller then hands over both a receipt and the item of value being purchased, such as a cup of coffee.
Contract law requires like for like and value for value. But the promissory note has no value! So what is going on?
I then saw that the receipt was also paper, just like the promissory note. It contained digits for the same amount, and it was an acknowledgement of debt. There was the contract!
Paper for paper. Digits for digits. Debt for debt. Here then was the actual contract that any modern commercial court could enforce. The cup of coffee is handed over for free!
This sets us up perfectly to dispense with the redundant paperwork. But how to do that? Each side is acknowledging a debt to the other. The only way to do away with this is, "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors"!!!
It was in that moment that I realized that the modern paper-based monetary system is built on the blueprint found in the Sermon on the Mount. I would later learn that this is NOT a coincidence.
Honi soit qui mal y pense |
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Bondservant
Forum Administrator
382 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2015 : 08:57:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Caleb
It was in that moment that I realized that the modern paper-based monetary system is built on the blueprint found in the Sermon on the Mount. I would later learn that this is NOT a coincidence.
Caleb, it would be a big help if you could outline this New Covenant blueprint for others to comprehend.
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living... - Mark 12:27 |
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hosfell
Occasional Poster
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2024 : 07:29:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Bondservant
quote:
Originally posted by Caleb
It was in that moment that I realized that the modern paper-based monetary system is built on the blueprint found in the Sermon on the Mount. I would later learn that this is NOT a coincidence.
Caleb, it would be a big help if you could outline this New Covenant blueprint for others to comprehend.
Indeed, it is a large topic and gets very interesting when you bring in Caleb's line of thinking on how the New Covenant "deals with" (overcomes) commerce. Surely, "What is the New Covenant?" is indeed probably the most important question there is for the modern Christian Body to define.
As Caleb has pointed out in many ways, the present Western system is built on the Covenants (both old and new). eg. Romans 13 is often quoted by prosecutors who want to claim the authority for using the "rod of correction" to "punish the evil doers" as their mandate. But what if Rom 13 is reflective of this very problem of defining the covenants, and division between the Old & New?
There is One Authority, but isn't there two "administrations" (ie. covenants) from the One Lawgiver for governance - ie. Old vs New? If the Old Covenant was meant to pass away and be replaced by the "new, and better" Covenant... then what is the nature of this New administration and how do those who make their "calling, election sure" under it receive "praise from" (for doing good) by those who carry the rod of correction to punish the evil doers?
Isn't it obvious from verses 8-10 vs 1-7 of Rom 13? One Authority, but two covenants (of administration of Law)?
What fulfills law? https://biblehub.com/romans/13-10.htm
What "perfect obedience" ended the "Old Covenant" which made a Testator for a New and Better Covenant (Heb 1)?
How is one "clothed" in His righteousness of His "perfect obedience" and come under His "grace" defined by His example? Is this why we are to be "imitators of Him" https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/11-1.htm?
How does one fulfill His new commandment, to love one another AS He loved us? John 13:34 https://biblehub.com/john/13-34.htm
I liked Kline's 5-point breakdown of the Covenants quoted in David Chilton's Days of Vengeance. If these truly are "vassal king treaties with a High King", then how are the "royal-priests" (as adopted sons in covenant marriage with the Son of God) the "vassal" king (self-governing under the King of kings and High Priest) to fulfill the commanded to have no other king or priest between them and the father (ie. the "High King")?
The 5-Point Biblical Covenant https://rebuildbiblicalworldview.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/the-5-point-biblical-covenant-what-is-it/
Here, then, is the five-point structure of the Biblical covenant, as developed by Sutton in his excellent book, “That You May Prosper”. The Book of Deuteronomy is structured around it.
1. The transcendence and immanence and sovereignty of God
2. Authority/hierarchy of God's covenant
3. Biblical law/ethics/dominion
4. Judgment/oath/sanctions: blessings and curses
5. Continuity/succession/inheritance – ie heb.12:28-29
Because the One Christian Body has not yet found a coherent way to "make one's calling and election sure" is that why they are not "ruling and reigning" after making "peace" with the "rulers/authorities/powers of this world""?
Is this why they have no effective means to "overcome" (the world order) and make peace treaty (to end all resistance against the One Authority's administration of the New Covenant) because of a failure to define, understand and implement the order of operations in Eph 6:11-12? https://biblehub.com/ephesians/6-11.htm
"Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." (need to correct the grammar here of "devil"/false-accusers/attorneys - eg. there is a a reason that in the UK solicitors are called "devilers")
How do we overcome our "Fear of Victory" when faced with the comprehensive Truth of the Total Crown Rights of Christ the King? https://pocketcollege.com/mobile.html#99
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set-apart way-showers
https://hosfell.org/ |
Edited by - hosfell on 14 Dec 2024 10:49:01 |
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What is the New Covenant?
