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DanielJacob Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 12:21:06
Greetings brothers,
Peace unto you all,

I am going to go out on a limb here and start a discussion concerning the book authored by Daniel and the prophesies therein.

I know that many of us hold differing beliefs on this subject, and many other parts of Scripture; and, because of those strongly held beliefs, it impacts, in part, how we interact with the rest of the world. It is my hope that we can conduct this discussion in a manner of presentation of the facts and allow those that participate and view these posting to form their own opinions on the subject.

We should also establish some principles upon which we will base our postings. I purpose that those be:
1. Neither to accept nor provide, as settled interpretation, anything that rests upon surmise or mere probability; only that which is supported either by direct proof from Scripture (KJV, LXX), or by reasonable deduction from the Scriptures.
2. Rely on historical facts in order to show the fulfillment of prophecy; for it cannot be shown any other way. (Josephus, I & II Maccabees, etc.)
3. If we offer a statement or opinion, we provide the proofs whereby we believe it to be established.
4. That there be a patient examination of the proofs advanced, together with a measure of toleration among those of us who are, with equal sincerity, seeking to know the mind of the Eternal.

What say ye?
20   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Robert-James Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 14:05:03
Huh?

Pythagorus mentioned all is numbers. Well, numbers can be letter's and are. Symbol's are what we have. Some speak and read in 2-3-4 languages. All are symbol's...of idea's trying to be expressed. The ten tribes of Israel, the Northern Kingdom were taken into captivity circa. 744-45 b.c. Ok? Pretty well agreed upon and completed by 721 b.c.
7 time-2520 years. 360 {prophetic year} X 7.
1776 was the release time of the punishment. Leviticus 26? explains some of this.
Th. Jefferson stated on hearing of Geo. Washington's death, "Israel has lost a great man today". Ok?
I mean to casually ask any caucacian, "why are you called a Caucacian"?
Few even have a response. That is the result of modern x-ianity and flouride? Or just plain satanic plans?
I consider life obvious for one with eyes to see and ears to hear.

Daniel's book is quite a mystery. Many students of scripture consider 1914 as the beginnings...of trouble, Yacob's troubles and set dates and times. I have Newton's reflections in book form on his take on Daniel. As intelligent-gifted as he was, his writings are so very dated and quite quaint and even stupid...today. If Issac Newton couldn't figure it, it can not be figured. Agreed? But discernment, eyes opened and revelation knowlege is available to You.
Common sense is more precious than gold.


TomL Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 11:12:48
Huh!

Robert-James Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 18:26:03
quote:
Originally posted by TomL

This was stopped on April 3, 2004. What a shame, I enjoyed reading it so far. Are you guys still here?

Tom





I am back after near seven years. Seven times?
Daniel 12...and a time of trouble such as never was. Good grief? Yes good grief like when saints rejoice when the walls of Babylon fall.
Poetic language of course. Wall Street crashing more likely. Daniel's words revelant today? I think so.
The thirteen tribes gathered together and circa. 1776 issued a coming of age document. If that ain't Micha-El clearing His throat, what is"
Blessings,
TomL Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 01:22:46
This was stopped on April 3, 2004. What a shame, I enjoyed reading it so far. Are you guys still here?

Tom

BatKol Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 08:11:50
Robert-James said: The moment Daniel knew they were challenging his loyality to the Most High, he, immediately disobeyed they false STATUES.

Steve: I agree. Now take that line of thinking a bit deeper. Ask youself why Daniel had no problem with accepting the JURISTIC PERSONALITY of BELTESHAZZAR. As you rightly point out, once Daniel knew "THEY" were challenging his loyality to the Most High, he refused to follow that STATUTE. Here is a guy, Daniel, who would not even break the Kashrut Torah (food laws)yet he would accept, without protest, a NAME given to him by "BABYL"... As you like to say...

THINK AND READ AT THE SAME TIME!!!

BatKol Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 06:28:25
Robert-James said: Frank told me that...Michael had him [Frank} deliver two message lately,

Steve: I have no way of verifying this.... and neither do you.
What I find funny about this is Frank is part of the group you call
"cretins" and a host of other words I have heard you say about his fellowship.. LOL .

Did you ask yourself why Michael did not tell Frank give up his license and SS# and benefits??


RObert-James said: Frank went into the Govenerer's Office, on two occasion's, and spoke the Word of the Most High YaH to the mere men. What is interesting is that Frank, a man, was talked to by Michael.

Steve: If this man has talked directly to Michael then you should be asking yourself why Michael did not demand this man stop paying IRS, give up DL, SS# and benefits. If Frank Crawford has given up these things then I stand corrected. But last I knew he did not (as I saw his LICENSED car at the hotel he checked into with a DL and probably a credit card).

RObert-James: Yet the Steven's of this world, think MichaEl is hiding.

Steve: You have absoultely NO authority to put words in my mouth.
I never said he is hiding. Please show proof of your statement.

Robert-James: Hiding from whom? Should be the question asked...

Steve: It is a matter of when.... not who.

RObert-James said: Steven Webb presents a perfect example of who we all think that: because it was not told to me, it is not true.

Steve: I am warning you right now. If you want to get personal on this I know way too much about your "double life" for you to be making this personal... You best stop speculating and putting forth false statements that I never said or even hinted at. Never once have I made the statement that if something was not told directly to me it was not true. Never. If I believed this then why would I even be reading the Bible?

Robert-James: The Micha- El Presence is standing, else, right now, Israel, as a people would be wiped out!

Steve: I disagree. It is YHWH who is keeping Israel from being wiped out. Michael has a specific purpose in context to Daniel. 1 Samuel 12:22 For YHWH shall not forsake His people for the sake of His great Name; for YHWH has sworn to make you for a people unto Him.

Robert-James: For Steven, the book of Daniel does also state, that the Most High El Elyon shall set up His Kingdom...while the 4th beast is {thinking } to have his way.

Steve: Please provide the verses for this so we can examine it. I take nothing you say at face value.

Robert-James: Should not the called out {ecclesia} talk more about Our Kingdom, rather than the 4th beast kinKdom?

Steve: The two are very important and need to be examined, especially in context of Daniel 11:34-45 and 12:1..... "and then the people will escape"

Robert-James: I AM so Scottish

Steve: There are some who are your own blood offspring who are seriously questioning this claim.

Robert-James: Daniel was then...Now...is Now.

Steve: Ezek 14:14 ... Daniel, a good example then and most certanly
when the final, future scourage comes about.

Robert-James did you ask yourself why Michael did not tell Frank Crawford to get rid of SS# and DL????
Manuel Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 00:38:01
Greetings In The Most High, The Life Giver:

I remember a couple of years ago I decided to take my son, and a young man afflicted with emotional problems (they say), camping. The young man took his battery powered tape player along with him to the campsite. All the time while we where there, except for the fun times during our make-shift inner-tube shoot rides down the river, plus nice strolls through the woods, plus other fun events that this beautiful young man would play his Scottish bag-pipe music all day! The people around us seemed to enjoy the harmony and so did I. This young man, along with my young son, Michael, was of the Ru clan, and a fine clan they are those men of Ru.

Brothers, I cannot help being In Him, through thoughts, and even giving examples of His Word all day long.

His Grace and Light be harmoniously upon you,
I am, In Him, Father Willing,
Manuel
Robert-James Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 23:26:01
I spoke with my friend of old, Frank Crawford, a few days ago. Frank is an old man 72? who has ministered the gospel for over fifty years, the Israel message, and the sacred names included...along with the message of the cross, death, and resurrection. Frank told me that...Michael had him [Frank} deliver two message lately, to two GOVERNOR's of two U.S. states. Frank went into the Govenerer's Office, on two occasion's, and spoke the Word of the Most High YaH to the mere men. What is interesting is that Frank, a man, was talked to by Michael. Yet the Steven's of this world, think MichaEl is hiding. Hiding from whom? Should be the question asked... Steven Webb presents a perfect example of who we all think that: because it was not told to me, it is not true. The Micha- El Presence is standing, else, right now, Israel, as a people would be wiped out! For Israel is a certain people, among all the people's of the worldly.
Daniel was an Israelite, of the house of Judah/Benyamin. David had 500,000 men in his army in the year 1000 b.c. {for round figures}. This figures 6 million people within Judah/Benyamin in 1000 b.c.
42,600 returned from the BABYLONIAN captivity in 520 b.c. Is it time to think AND read, at the same time? {plus, the ten tribes of Israel were of even a greater number at that time}.
Pythagoras, the great savant of number's, conversed with Daniel, at Babylon. Issac Newton butchered Daniel's booklet. Shall we move on?
For Steven, the book of Daniel does also state, that the Most High El Elyon shall set up His Kingdom...while the 4th beast is {thinking } to have his way. There is always...The Way.
Should not the called out {ecclesia} talk more about Our Kingdom, rather than the 4th beast kinKdom?
I AM so Scottish that I love the picture of YaH's son's raising their kilts and saying to the pope's and kin{K]s of the world, "kiss My arse"
Daniel was then...Now...is Now.
Do any of you pray three times daily at 9:00, 12:00, 3:00, as Daniel did? When you do do this daily, call on me, ok? american@madison.main.nc.us
BatKol Posted - 14 Mar 2004 : 08:59:33
Greetings Daniel-Jacob,

Thanks for the discussion. I am glad the enjoyment and benefit is mutual. I am going to take a few weeks off the thread and spend time around the house with the family.

Peace to you,
Steve
DanielJacob Posted - 14 Mar 2004 : 02:02:05
Greetings Steven,
Peace be unto you.

I enjoy these exchanges also. It makes me search for the truth. Allows me to share what I have found and to experience what others have found. They increases my knowledge. I am very grateful that the opportunity has been given to us by those that provide this site. I will be back in touch soon. I will try to lay out some of my assertions in a more detailed form for perusal.


BatKol Posted - 13 Mar 2004 : 17:56:56
Greetings Daniel-Jacob,
I am very familiar with the authenticity claims of Daniel and we can include some of this as the conversation develops. This certainly has a place although for our purposes here at this moment let's stay on what we are discussing. I am saying this for me BTW. Bible errors, contradictions and impossibilities all were a deep study of mine for about seven months so I never mind including those elements when there is somebody willing to discuss them. But since we are making such progress with the points we have developed I'll not go into any of that now. This has been very enjoyable thus far and I don't want to spoil it.

Daniel-Jacob said: That being said it still doesn't erase or explain why Daniel only mentions Jeremias and specifically the seventy weeks spoken of by that prophet and those events that are involved in that period.

Steve: Let me try. The first vision came because Daniel could not understand it. It was vexing him because he was, after all in exile.
Gabriel came and set him strait. End of first vision. Three years later (new section in Massoretic by way of form, text and context)
"ish echad" fills him in on more future events and ultimately the end of days. We agree on this already I think. Now why you are seeing some of the seventy weeks/490 year stuff mixed in with 'ish echad's' vision is because Daniel is still in the 490 year time frame. There is still some future left in that 3rd Kingdom's time line. Daniel was told to obsure the book so expect to find it intertwined. The two keys, imo are Daniel 7 for identifying the 4 Kingdoms and 12:1 to see what happens when it's over.

Daniel-Jacob said: There is a king in history that fits the bill of 12:1. It is Herod the king.

Steve: Every 4th Kingdom/king could fit this description. What will
reveal the identity of the king, be it allegorically or literally, is a) line up the king in question with behavior listed in Daniel 11:30ish - 12:1. and b) look at the state of the world and see if 'all the things written in the book' have come to pass to see where we are.

My assertion:

I can show you that USA or any FRANCHISE SUBSIDIARY completely fits 11:30ish behavior.

We are not quite there yet to 12:1 or to the dismantling of the 4th Kingdom. . I can show you that this behavior is exactly what we have with the GOVTS that currently rule the world.. and have for quite some time.

Daniel-Jacob said: But we can't get to Herod if we cannot agree that the previous verses of chapter eleven, namely 1-30, pertain to the histories of the Persian empire, the rise of Alexander the Great, the division of his empire between his four generals, the incessant wars between the kings of Syria (Seleucids, "the north") and the kings of Egypt (Ptolemies, "the south"), and the career of Antiochus Epiphanes, the persecutor of the Jews, spoken of as the "vile person" (v. 21), and not some supposed kingdom that is to come to power sometime in the future. History so closely corresponds to this prophecy that even some historical writers have speculated that Daniel had to write it after the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes.

Steve: You are speaking of the 3rd Kingdom when you speak of Persia. Check out Daniel 7 as a good outline of the four Kingdoms. I use Daniel 7 and 12:1 as two fixed points. Daniel did a good job when he was told to obscure the book so I just look at everything against Daniel 7 and ultimately 12:1 when considering who is who and the escape of the people (end of exile)...The last Kingdom before the end of the exile is ROME of which Herod was an early VASSAL. We can agree on Herod as being an early sub-4th Kingdom overseer.. just one in a very long line that is still up and running today.

You see, I agree 100% with what most on this board will say concerning ROMAN statutes, the Cakkolix, ENGLAND, USA etc. It just underscores and helps to identify the 4th Kingdom. Until the war comes which destroys the 4th Kingdom we get 11:30 -11:39 type of GOVT. Scripture says when the Throne of David gets re-instituted, we get Torah Govt flowing once again from Zion. For now it's 11:30-35 unfortunately... until 12:1.

Peace to you, Daniel-Jacob. I enjoy conversing with you and hope you are enjoying it as well.

Steve
DanielJacob Posted - 13 Mar 2004 : 16:17:24
Greetings Steven,
Peace be unto you.

You know, I am somewhat surprised that we are the only ones that have undertaken this discussion. Where are all of the others that hold opinions on this subject?

You said:
quote:
So, for my position, I am looking for the fulfillment of 'all that is written in the book', the destruction of the 4th Kingdom, and the fulfillment of the Messianic prophesies which include weapons to plowshares, universal peace, re-instituted Throne of David, the nations all keeping Tabernacles and all paying tribute of the Throne of David, etc. In summation, fulfillment of 12:1. I am very interested to see how you make this work all within 490 years.

I will continue to assert that there is a bigger issue than trying to fit everything into the 490 years (don't forget the other timelines, including the non-timeline given in 11:35).


Steven, I agree that it would appear that there is much still left of prophecies from other prophets that is yet to be fulfilled and I don't dispute that. I went back and re-read the book again and I will also agree, that as concerning the first vision, that I have developed some additional questions that I must explore. That being said it still doesn't erase or explain why Daniel only mentions Jeremias and specifically the seventy weeks spoken of by that prophet and those events that are involved in that period.

Now concerning your above quote. There is a king in history that fits the bill of 12:1. It is Herod the king. But we can't get to Herod if we cannot agree that the previous verses of chapter eleven, namely 1-30, pertain to the histories of the Persian empire, the rise of Alexander the Great, the division of his empire between his four generals, the incessant wars between the kings of Syria (Seleucids, "the north") and the kings of Egypt (Ptolemies, "the south"), and the career of Antiochus Epiphanes, the persecutor of the Jews, spoken of as the "vile person" (v. 21), and not some supposed kingdom that is to come to power sometime in the future. History so closely corresponds to this prophecy that even some historical writers have speculated that Daniel had to write it after the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes.

Your comments...
BatKol Posted - 13 Mar 2004 : 08:26:43
Greetings Steven,
Peace be unto you.



Greetings to you Daniel-Jacob,

You said: Ok, let me see if I can provide enough evidence in support of my position to at least have you say it is a possibility. We are looking for a connection between the vision of chapter nine and the vision of chapters ten through twelve. Well, here goes.

Steve: To me the root issue is not the math or even the breakups in the text, etc. it is the fulfillment of the prophesies that will prove where we are. I can agree that all of the visions are intertwined, especially with the vision of the four beasts in chapter 7 as an all encompassing story-line of the 4 exiles (see 7:25 concerning the 4th Kingdom which is still here).... Also, we have more than just a 490 years time frame spoken of in these prophecies. We have one in 12:7 that speaks of a period, periods, and a half which includes the fragmenting of the hand of the holy people. We have another which speaks of one thousand three hundred and thirty five years which deals with the removal of the daily offering and the installation of the mute abomination. We have also Daniel asking about the ultimate end of these matters wherein it is said that 'these matters will be obscured and sealed until the time of the end.' Obviously this last statement about the ultimate conclusion cannot be about the events that were given specific time lines. So there is no fixed date or time-line given concerning the ultimate end of these matters. To say all of this is contained in a 490 year time line does not make sense. Even 'ish-echad' says in 11:35 that men of the future will not be able to interpret when the 'time of the End' will be so I can't see how you are going to be able to show this from the fixed time-lines given to Daniel. Clearly Daniel was not given this 'key' to the time-line concerning the 'end of days' so we will not be finding the answer within the 490 years, nor even the 1,335 years or even the period, periods, and a half.

The best guide is to look for the fulfillment. I am very interested in hearing your take on when the 4th Kingdom
has been destroyed and when 12:1 came to fulfillment.


Daniel-Jacob: From verses 10:14 through 10:21 we have this dissertation between Daniel and the "'ish-echad". Daniel is talking about how he can't stand up, how is sick to his stomach, he has no strength to stand, and he is gasping for breath. Then in verse 10:19 the "ish-echad" says to Daniel "Fear not, man greatly beloved, peace be to thee" and then here is a real eye opener "quit thyself like a man, and be strong". The "ish-echad" tells Daniel "Act like man, quit your wining and be strong!" Daniel obligees, and the "ish-echad" continues in this manner, and I paraphrase, "Do you know where I have been? I have come from fighting with the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece!". Now you suppose that He is speaking of mortal beings? I think not; I think He is speaking of spiritual beings of Satan, the prince of this world. He then continues "But I will tell that which is ordained in scripture of truth, and there is no one that holds with me in these matters but Michael, your prince." (Michael was known as "the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people"). Now here is the connection. "And I (the "ish-echad") in the first year of Cyrus stood to strengthen and confirm". There is an implied him or what here, Him who? Him Cyrus, makes the contextual sense. Now if you believe that this is Daniel speaking then of course the whole thing would turn on that but that is not the case, the context doesn't support it, because the very next verse continues "And now I will tell thee the truth", that which he was going to tell Daniel in the beginning before Daniel started his imitation of jello. The "ish-echad" then goes on in the following verses to relate what is going to happen after the decree of Cyrus. Keep in mind, the Jews have or are in the process at that moment in returning and rebuilding Jerusalem and that process took several years which is why I believe also that we have the particular wording of the three separate groupings of the seventy weeks. The first group of seven weeks (49 years) makes sense in that we consider how indignant the scribes where when they misunderstood Messiah when spoke of raising the temple back up after three days and they where quick to point out that forty and six years was that temple in the building. The second group of sevens being sixty-two weeks (434 years) being that period between Malachias and the coming of Messiah. The last, seventieth week, (7 years) was the time from Messiah to the anointing of the saints with the Ruach Hakodesh.

Your comments…

Steve: Again, what I am looking for in toto is the defeat of the 4th Kingdom who is defined clearly in 11:36 - 12:1.
More detail of the 4th Kingdom is given earlier in 7:7. I still see
the temple of strange gods (pagan images and statues used by USA and it's franchises), I still see land apportioned at a price. I still see the 4th Kingdom being given the power to do 'as he pleases'. Until the Throne of David is re-instituted, the 4th Kingdom gets to perform it's function in YHWH's plan.

So, for my position, I am looking for the fulfillment of 'all that is written in the book', the destruction of the 4th Kingdom, and the fulfillment of the Messianic prophesies which include weapons to plowshares, universal peace, re-instituted Throne of David, the nations all keeping Tabernacles and all paying tribute of the Throne of David, etc. In summation, fulfillment of 12:1. I am very interested to see how you make this work all within 490 years.

I will continue to assert that there is a bigger issue than trying to fit everything into the 490 years (don't forget the other timelines, including the non-timeline given in 11:35).

Let's get to this part of our discussion for I think it will give
more definition to each of our positions.

Looking forward to your response.

Peace to you.

Steve
DanielJacob Posted - 13 Mar 2004 : 00:37:21
Greetings Steven,
Peace be unto you.

Ok, let me see if I can provide enough evidence in support of my position to at least have you say it is a possibility. We are looking for a connection between the vision of chapter nine and the vision of chapters ten through twelve. Well, here goes.

From verses 10:14 through 10:21 we have this dissertation between Daniel and the "'ish-echad". Daniel is talking about how he can't stand up, how is sick to his stomach, he has no strength to stand, and he is gasping for breath. Then in verse 10:19 the "ish-echad" says to Daniel "Fear not, man greatly beloved, peace be to thee" and then here is a real eye opener "quit thyself like a man, and be strong". The "ish-echad" tells Daniel "Act like man, quit your wining and be strong!" Daniel obligees, and the "ish-echad" continues in this manner, and I paraphrase, "Do you know where I have been? I have come from fighting with the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece!". Now you suppose that He is speaking of mortal beings? I think not; I think He is speaking of spiritual beings of Satan, the prince of this world. He then continues "But I will tell that which is ordained in scripture of truth, and there is no one that holds with me in these matters but Michael, your prince." (Michael was known as "the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people"). Now here is the connection. "And I (the "ish-echad") in the first year of Cyrus stood to strengthen and confirm". There is an implied him or what here, Him who? Him Cyrus, makes the contextual sense. Now if you believe that this is Daniel speaking then of course the whole thing would turn on that but that is not the case, the context doesn't support it, because the very next verse continues "And now I will tell thee the truth", that which he was going to tell Daniel in the beginning before Daniel started his imitation of jello. The "ish-echad" then goes on in the following verses to relate what is going to happen after the decree of Cyrus. Keep in mind, the Jews have or are in the process at that moment in returning and rebuilding Jerusalem and that process took several years which is why I believe also that we have the particular wording of the three separate groupings of the seventy weeks. The first group of seven weeks (49 years) makes sense in that we consider how indignant the scribes where when they misunderstood Messiah when spoke of raising the temple back up after three days and they where quick to point out that forty and six years was that temple in the building. The second group of sevens being sixty-two weeks (434 years) being that period between Malachias and the coming of Messiah. The last, seventieth week, (7 years) was the time from Messiah to the anointing of the saints with the Ruach Hakodesh.

Your comments…
BatKol Posted - 12 Mar 2004 : 22:48:48
Greetings Daniel-Jacob,

You said: Your points are noted and I agree that the original texts had no breaks at all. This was true even with the Greek.

Steve: I agreed that there are no breaks textually from chapter 10 which starts out "in the third year of Cyrus" all the way to the end of the book. The massoretic text supports this.

Daniel-Jacob: I don't believe that there is a great gulf in the different texts. Your point concerning Daniel 10:14, to me, falls into the so-called "break" theory ....

Steve: Here is where our differences begin. I agreed the Hebrew Massoretic form as well as text subject matter supports no paragraph breaks starting at chapter 10 ending square to the end. I do not see one vision. I see two. Text, form and subject matter all support this.

One vision is with Gabriel which happened during the first year which contains specific prophesies and another three years later narrated by 'ish-echad' which highlights the complete exile until the 'end of days'. To find the context concerning the 'end of days' we should look to what events are detailed concerning the 'end of days' as mentioned in 12:1. So, while, I agree that the form, text and subject matter of the massoretic (and probably Septuigent?) shows no break from Chapter 10 - 12, I assert that a break does exist in the text, the form and the subject matter between chapter 9 and 10. A three year gap shown by the subject matter and supported by the hebrew text itself. Check out a copy of the massoretic text in Hebrew and you can see it.

Daniel-Jacob continues: ...Your point concerning Daniel 10:14, to me, falls into the so-called "break" theory concerning the prophesy and lends itself to the idea that the fulfillment as being somewhere far remote from Daniel,

Steve: I do not believe that the total prophesy is all remotely in the future. I think it is an all encompasing timeline concluding with the 'end of days'..Concerning the Chapter 10-12 vision given by 'ish-echad' it is noted in 10:14, "I have come to make you understand what will befall your people in the End of Days, for there is YET a vision for those days". This shows that the vision given by "ish-Echad" in 10:14 had YET to be revealed and is seperate from the vision given by Gabriel in chapter 9. Remember the context of Gabriel's narrative is an answered prayer because Daniel did not understand the Jeremiah prophesy. The second 'ish-echad' vision is a wide span timeline concluding with the 4th Kingdom's destruction in 12:1 wherein "all the things written in the book" happen, i.e. concerning the end of the final exile and destruction of the 4th Kingdom, then the uniting of the two houses of Yahudah and Yisrael, and the re-instituted Davidic Monarchy, etc.

Daniel-Jacob said: however, I would point out that one should ask "last days" of what event?;

Steve: The 'last days' that conclude the final exile and the destruction of the 4th Kingdom which is ROME/Esau. Have we seen an end to this type of GOVT as detailed here in 11:39 "He will build strong fortresses in honor of a strange god. He will accord great honor to whomever he acknowledges, he will empower them over the multitudes, and he will apportion land at a price"? If you still see this type of GOVT behavior in the world, then the 4th Kingdom is still here. This behaviour will end when 12:1 happens.

Daniel-Jacob: and surely "many days" are included in 490 years.

Steve: Yes, but the 'last days' are well past the 490 years.
There are other events and time frames mentioned as well.

Daniel-Jacob: When we give a blanket meaning to the word "last days" as always sometime in our own future, we summarily dismiss any meaning that may be contained within the context of the Scriptures themselves. The meaning is, and should be, controlled and reveled by the context.

Steve: Please show when the 4th Kingdom has been dismantled and there is no more, ".... fortresses in honor of a strange god. or great honor to whomever the king acknowledges, who will empower them over the multitudes, and the king will apportion land at a price".
I still see this going on so I don't see it's destruction.

Daniel-Jacob: Too often expositors ignore the context and simply apply this "last days" to the last days of the so-called gospel dispensation, even when it means no such thing. This is exactly what I would like to try to avoid.

Steve: You won't find that with me on this topic. To me the context is all about 12:1 and the destruction of the 11:39 type GOVT and THEN the people will escape.

Daniel-Jacob: As I read this book it occurs to me that all the visions or prophecies contained therein are all related and give varying accounts of the same events. Each successive vision or prophecy building on and clarifying the one before. All culminating in the "last days" of those events.

Steve: I can agree up to a point with adding a detail that the
vision given in the third year by 'ish-echad' is mostly about the 'end of days'. A vision that was YET to be revealed after the vision narrated by Gabriel.

Daniel_Jacob: The primary point that is being made in these prophecies of chapters IX through XII are all concerning these same events;

Steve: Here I disagree because I do not see 9 - 12 as being unbroken. There is a three year difference between the two visions of Gabriel and 'ish-echad'. Gabriel's (Ch. 9) deals with explaining Daniel's misunderstanding of Jeremiah's prophesy, while 'ish-echad's' (CH 10-12) deals with the exile events mostly of the 4th kingdom ROME/Esau up to the 'end of days'.

Daniel-Jacob said: What will be the events that are going to impact Daniel's people(the Jews, Gentiles need not apply), the city of Jerusalem, and the Sanctuary. One key is we are given a time period in which these events are to take place and we are given some event markers.

Let's look to chapter, nine, at the prophecy given by Gabriel to see how we discern this 490 years that are spoke of at verse 24:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out the iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Here we are told that there is a set period of time, seventy weeks (sevens of weeks), against the people and the city, to end sin, seal up transgressions, blot out iniquities, make atonement for iniquities, bring everlasting righteousness, seal (complete) the vision and the prophet, and anoint the saints. Six specific things, all connected by the word "and". The question is when does this period start? Well, the next verse tells us.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here we can see that it was the command, by Cyrus, in the first year of his reign that marked the beginning of this period. Ezra verse 1:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of the Persians, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremias might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of the Persians, and he issued a proclamation through all his kingdom, and that in writing, saying, thus said Cyrus king of the Persians, The Lord God of heaven has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has given me a charge to build him a house in Jerusalem that is in Judea. Who is there among you of all his people? for his God shall be with him, and he shall go up to Jerusalem that is in Judea, and let him build the house of the God of Israel: he is the God that is in Jerusalem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Since it is these chapters and prophecies that generate so much speculation as to the meaning, let's begin to break them down and see if we can deduce if, in fact, these prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. as some purport, or if it is in fact set for some time, as others purport, for the near future.

Your comments…

Steve: I will be very interested in seeing how you find fulfillment of 12:1 in light of the above.

Looking forward to your response.

YHWH Bless.

Steve




DanielJacob Posted - 12 Mar 2004 : 20:04:08
Greetings Steven,
Peace be unto you.

Your points are noted and I agree that the original texts had no breaks at all. This was true even with the Greek. I don't believe that there is a great gulf in the different texts. Your point concerning Daniel 10:14, to me, falls into the so-called "break" theory concerning the prophesy and lends itself to the idea that the fulfillment as being somewhere far remote from Daniel, however, I would point out that one should ask "last days" of what event?; and surely "many days" are included in 490 years. We have already began to see the difficulty we have with this book because of what may be long held suppositions or wrong interpretations by various expositors. When we give a blanket meaning to the word "last days" as always sometime in our own future, we summarily dismiss any meaning that may be contained within the context of the Scriptures themselves. The meaning is, and should be, controlled and reveled by the context. Too often expositors ignore the context and simply apply this "last days" to the last days of the so-called gospel dispensation, even when it means no such thing. This is exactly what I would like to try to avoid.

As I read this book it occurs to me that all the visions or prophecies contained therein are all related and give varying accounts of the same events. Each successive vision or prophecy building on and clarifying the one before. All culminating in the "last days" of those events.

The primary point that is being made in these prophecies of chapters IX through XII are all concerning these same events; What will be the events that are going to impact Daniel's people(the Jews, Gentiles need not apply), the city of Jerusalem, and the Sanctuary. One key is we are given a time period in which these events are to take place and we are given some event markers.

Let's look to chapter, nine, at the prophecy given by Gabriel to see how we discern this 490 years that are spoke of at verse 24:
quote:
Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out the iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy.

Here we are told that there is a set period of time, seventy weeks (sevens of weeks), against the people and the city, to end sin, seal up transgressions, blot out iniquities, make atonement for iniquities, bring everlasting righteousness, seal (complete) the vision and the prophet, and anoint the saints. Six specific things, all connected by the word "and". The question is when does this period start? Well, the next verse tells us.
quote:
And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.
Here we can see that it was the command, by Cyrus, in the first year of his reign that marked the beginning of this period. Ezra verse 1:
quote:
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of the Persians, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremias might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of the Persians, and he issued a proclamation through all his kingdom, and that in writing, saying, thus said Cyrus king of the Persians, The Lord God of heaven has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has given me a charge to build him a house in Jerusalem that is in Judea. Who is there among you of all his people? for his God shall be with him, and he shall go up to Jerusalem that is in Judea, and let him build the house of the God of Israel: he is the God that is in Jerusalem.


Since it is these chapters and prophecies that generate so much speculation as to the meaning, let's begin to break them down and see if we can deduce if, in fact, these prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. as some purport, or if it is in fact set for some time, as others purport, for the near future.

Your comments…
BatKol Posted - 12 Mar 2004 : 13:56:36
Greetings again Daniel,
I just wanted to make a note concerning your comment that the prophecy
given in Daniel 10 is from the son of man. The hebrew in 10:4 says
"ish-echad" which means "one man". "Beni-Adam" which means "son of man" is not found in the massoretic text.

Historically the LXX was originally only a translation of the
first five books commisioned by Ptolemies for the purpose of learning about the Jewish governmental/temple operations.

Three examples to back this up:

Flavius Josephus, in his preface to Antiquities of the Jews.

I found, therefore, that the second of the Ptolemies was a king who was extraordinarily diligent in what concerned learning, and the collection of books; that he was also peculiarly ambitious to procure a translation of our law, and of the constitution of our government therein contained, into the Greek tongue. Now Eleazar the high priest, one not inferior to any other of that dignity among us, did not envy the forenamed king the participation of that advantage, which otherwise he would for certain have denied him, but that he knew the custom of our nation was, to hinder nothing of what we esteemed ourselves from being communicated to others. Accordingly, I thought it became me both to imitate the generosity of our high priest, and to suppose there might even now be many lovers of learning like the king; for he did not obtain all our writings at that time; but those who were sent to Alexandria as interpreters, gave him only the books of the law, while there were a vast number of other matters in our sacred books. They, indeed, contain in them the history of five thousand years; in which time happened many strange accidents, many chances of war, and great actions of the commanders, and mutations of the form of our government. Upon the whole, a man that will peruse this history, may principally learn from it, that all events succeed well, even to an incredible degree, and the reward of felicity is proposed by God; but then it is to those that follow his will, and do not venture to break his excellent laws: and that so far as men any way apostatize from the accurate observation of them, what was practical before becomes impracticable and whatsoever they set about as a good thing, is converted into an incurable calamity.

St. Jerome, preface to the Book of Hebrew Questions, Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, Vol 6. Pg. 487 commenting on Josephus.

"Add to this that Josephus, who gives the story of the seventy translators, reports them as translating on the five books of Moses; and we also acknowledge these are more in harmony with the Hebrew than the rest"

The Anchor Bible Dictorary on the original Septuagint Vol 5, page 1093

"The word "Septuagint' (from Lat septuaginta = 70; hence the abbreviation LXX) derives from a story that 72 elders translated the Pentateuch into Greek; the term therefor applied originally only to those five books.

I'll spare you the comments in the Talmud which confirm the above

I don't think the above will matter in my argument as we both agree on the false division in the KJV. I thought this was a needful side note considering the book of Daniel was not one of the books translated by the 72 elders.

Steve




BatKol Posted - 12 Mar 2004 : 13:02:11
Greetings Daniel-Jacod,
I am using an Art Scroll Tanach with the Massoretic text on the right.
My english version has no breaks in the text however the verse numbers
do change. Chapters 10, 11 and 12 all read like one story with no breaks in the Art Scroll. As I check the Massoretic, I see that the Art Scroll Tanack has correctly rendered the form of the text.

So, I agree what you say concerning a false break, but the scriptures that I am using has no break to begin with.

The problem I have with saying this prophesy has been completely fulfilled AND that it is a detail of what is to happen during the 490 years is this:

Daniel 10:14 wherein Gabriel says, "I have come to make you understand what will befall your people in the End of Days, for there is yet a vision for (those) days". This is the context for the
last vision starting at 10:20. The details on the "End of Days".

In this context I cannot see the fulfillment of 12:1. What I do see right now is the truth of this statement in 11:39 "He will build strong fortresses in honor of a strange god. He will accord great honor to whomever he acknowledges, he will empower them over the multitudes, and he will apportion land at a price".

This 4th ROMAN kingdom is still playing out the above verse (and others that follow). With this in mind I have a hard time seeing fulfillment of 12:1.

I look forward to your response. I will print out your post and do more research.

Steve




DanielJacob Posted - 12 Mar 2004 : 11:18:42
Greetings Steven,

Great! Let us begin:

Since I believe that most will agree that the first eight chapters of this book are pretty much self explanatory, giving that the visions are, for the most part, interpreted by the Scriptures and by Gabriel within those chapters themselves, I would like to start with the ninth chapter and Daniel's prayer. I start here because I believe we can begin to establish the timing necessary for the prophesied events that are to take place beginning when Gabriel interrupts Daniel's pray and in chapters X through XII.

I prefer the LXX because it is in paragraph form and is easier, at least for me, to draw the context from. Daniel, in his prayer is making supplications unto the Eternal for his people when he is interrupted by Gabriel with a message from the Eternal. Gabriel provides this message in the form of a prophecy in that he is telling Daniel what is going to take place concerning the City, People, and Sanctuary after the seventy years of captivity are completed and what is eventually going to take place in the subsequent 490 years.

Now, while we are not told so directly, this must have distressed Daniel very much being told that, yes, the Eternal is going to allow the people to return and rebuild the City and Sanctuary, but that is not the end of it, because we see that Daniel starting at x:1, and nearly two years later, is in mourning, in this case for three full weeks. Daniel goes on to explain the conditions when a new vision appears to him and he is visited by the Son of man. This particular vision and prophecy is delivered by the Son of man and begins at x:19 and goes through xii:4.

One of the matters that, in my humble opinion, creates so much confusion about the various books and prophecies of Scripture is the poetic style with which the KJV is written. The breaking of the Eternal's message at xi:1 and xii:1 create a false sense of a break in the context when no break should be intended.

I believe that I can illustrate this point in future posting on this subject.

Thoughts so far?
BatKol Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 19:10:54
Daniel-Jacob all sounds good. I am very interested to see how the prophecies concerning the last kingdom mentioned have been completed as well as the fulfillment of 12:1. I have much read commentary and there are many opinions concerning this. Maybe we can uncover something new.

Steve

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