| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Oneisraelite |
Posted - 01 Feb 2005 : 22:03:17
His Name is Not JESUS
We may argue ‘till the cows come home about the name given The Messiah of Yahuwah but one thing we know for certain, his name is not JESUS. The evidence from virtually every quarter tells us this is truth. This treatise, however, is not written to try to force anyone to use the name given him by the Founder, you may at your own risk, use the name given him by men, in the name of tradition, if you so choose. We indicate that it may be precarious at best because there is a Maxim of Law that states, “What one creates, one controls”.
Let’s start with Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, in his Greek Dictionary of the New Testament.
G2424
Iesous
ee-ay-sooce'
Of Hebrew origin [H3091]; Jesus (that is, Jehoshua), the name of our Lord…
Dr Strong says his name is “of Hebrew origin [H3091]” and that its origin was “Jehoshua”, so let’s look at that one next.
H3091
yehoshua; yehoshua;
yeh-ho-shoo'-ah, yeh-ho-shoo'-ah
We now bring in the concept of "syncopation"...
Random House, Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary, copyrighted 1997, pg. 1027:
Je·su…n. Literary, Jesus. [1150 – 1200; ME < LL Iesu, obl. (orig. voc.) form of Iesus < Gk Iesou; see JESUS]
Je·sus…[1200 – 1250; ME < LL Iesus < Gk Iesous < Heb Yeshua’, syncopated var. (variation) of Yehoshua…]
For those not certain as to how to read the etymology of a word, reading it from the right bracket (bold and in red) to the bolded word at the far left Jesus, it starts with the oldest known form of the word (Yehoshua), eventually taking you to the most modern version of it (Jesus).
We now go to Webster’s 1828 Dictionary to find out exactly what “syncopated var. [variation]” means:
SYN'COPATE, v.t. [See Syncope.] To contract, as a word, by taking one or more letters or syllables from the middle.
We see here that letters and/or syllables were removed from the middle of the “origin” of his name, the name given him by the Supreme Suveran of the Universe, which by all rules of reason, one would think we would all be most anxious to use, considering the fact that our Scriptures seem to indicate that the Creator gave him a name which is above every name. (Philippians 2:9)
In both Strong’s Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary and Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Lexicon we find two variations of the name of our Messiah. Unfortunately the font on Ecclesia.org apparently does not sustain either the Ancient Hebrew or Aramaic/Hebrew so we will have to name the letters of these two accounts. The first that we see is yod, hey, waw, shiyn, waw, ayin, six Hebrew letters. The second version is yod, hey, waw, shiyn, ayin, five letters; one letter, the second waw, has now apparently been removed, i.e. syncopated.
Now then, this name is made up of two Hebrew words, the first being yah, yeh, yahu or yeho; let us attempt to solve the mystery of which one it is.
The first word that makes up the Hebrew name of our Messiah is made up of three Hebrew letters, yod, hey, waw. Here for the edification of the body are the Hebrew letters for Yahh, pronounced according to Dr Strong as yaw, as found in both Strong’s Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary and Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Lexicon at #H3050, yod, hey. We seem to be missing the Hebrew letter waw as found in the “origin”, yod, hey, waw, shiyn, waw, ayin, of the name of our Messiah. (See the definition of “syncopate” above once more.)
So how are yod, hey, waw pronounced? To demonstrate this we look for a word that contains these three Hebrew letters and the first one we find in Strong’s Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary is the word/name Abiyahuw, which means, “Yahuwah is Father (Founder)”. This word/name ends in yod, hey, waw and is pronounced, according to James Strong, ab-ee-yaw’-hoo. We have found, thus far, forty witnesses to attest to this pronunciation of yod, hey, waw in Strong’s Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary! (Anyone desiring to see this list may e-mail us at our temporary e-mail location: Peculiar1s#yahoo.com.)
So, if the name that is above every name, the one given him by the Creator of the Universe, begins with yod, hey, waw then with a multitude of witnesses (40 thus far), may we safely presume that the first two syllables of the original name was yaw-hoo and not simply yah, yeh or even yeho?
Two noteworthy things we wish to bring up here is that Dr Strong, in his Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary, states that the full name of the Creator is pronounced yeh-ho-vaw' (#H3068), but that the shortened version of this very same name is pronounced yaw (#H3050); which is it Dr Strong, yeh or yaw? We perceive that it cannot be both! This is akin to saying that Dab is the contracted version of Deborah, which hopefully, we can all see is ridiculous; Deb is the shortened version of Deborah! And the second point being that there is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence that any word ending with the Hebrew letter hey is pronounced aw, hence the complete name would be pronounced yaw-oo-aw’ as opposed to yaw-oo-ay' or yaw-oo-eh'. And as for the "v" that Dr Strong shows... He shows this for the pronunciation of Levi; lay-vee'. We believe that this word is pronounced lay-oo-ee or loo-ee', if we are not mistaken. Regardless, Levi comes from the Hebrew word lamed, waw, hey,, which is correctly pronounced law-oo-ah', thus demonstrating for us, both the waw (vs. vav or vaw) and the hey.
We now turn our attention back to the last word in the original name of our Messiah, namely shuwa, spelled in the Hebrew, shiyn, waw, ayin or simply shiyn, ayin. To discover which of these two spellings is correct, we go to the word itself found at Strong’s #H7769 and not at #H3467 as Dr Strong indicates at #H3091. If the name above every name was made up of #H3068 and #3467 as James Strong states, it would be transliterated Yahu’yasha or Yahuwah’yasha, and it should be obvious even to the careless observer that it is not!!
H3467
yasha#8219;
yaw-shah'
The Hebrew name of Isaiah is made up of #H3467 & #H3050 and is pronounced yesh-ah-yaw'-hoo, and of course, here again we see that yod, hey, waw is pronounced yaw-hoo. Also, when we go to #H3467 we see that it is pronounced yaw-shah' and not yesh-ah! Further, does anyone else but us, find it strange that there are two accounts of the last word in this name, namely yod, hey and yod, hey, waw? This being truth, why do we not see both variations at #H3050? Could this again be the work of the syncopist, a liar with a pen in his hand? Most likely, since their instructions, which are found in the Mishnaic text of Tamid vii. 2 (= Sota vii. 6), were, and are, to “disguise” the name of the Creator.
Anyway, let us return to the last part of our Messiah’s name; we were about to go to Strong’s #H7769, shuwa, to find out what the Hebrew spelling was. Lo and behold, look what we find, shiyn, waw, ayin, three letters, and not two! That syncopist, it seems, has been having a field day with the two most important names in the Set Apart Scripture. Wonder why they went to all this trouble if, “it doesn’t matter what I call him, he has many names”? Judging by just the next three verses alone, it certainly appears to us that the name that was inspired into the Set Apart Scripture nearly seven thousand times might be important to the Inspirer thereof.
Pour out thy fury upon the heathen [nations] that know thee not, and upon the families [tribe(-s)] that call not on thy name… Yirm’yahu [Jeremiah] 10:25
[Note: In Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Dictionary we do not find “authority” amongst the definitions of shem; name. There are fourteen mentions of the word “authority” throughout BDB’s dictionary but not one of them is found at #H8034!]
For then I will purify the lips of the peoples, that they may all call on the name of Yahuwah, to serve him shoulder to shoulder. Tsaphan’yahu [Zephaniah] 3:9 (HNV)
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, Yahuwah is my ’Elohiym [Ruler]. Zakar’yahu [Zechariah] 13:9
And as we have pointed out before here at Ecclesia.org, #H7769 does not mean “riches” (opulence; 2a) meaning dubious [doubtful] - BDB), it means...
H7769 shua, [pronounced] shoo'-ah; From H7768; a halloo
H7775 …Feminine of H7773; a hallooing
H7773 …From H7768; a hallo
H7768 …A primitive root; properly to be free; but used only causatively and reflexively to hallo
We see from the above four witnesses that the choice, by Dr Strong, of the word "halloo" was not a coinkydink (coincidence)...
HAL'LOO, v.i. To cry out; to exclaim with a loud voice; to call to by name (Webster’s 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language)
…Hence, our Messiah’s name, Yahu’shua, means, “halloo Yahuwah” i.e. "cry out to Yahuwah", or “call on the name of Yahuwah”, which only makes sense, since this is the name to which “every knee shall bow [bend]”.
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I Yahuwah [#H3068]? and there is no ‘Elohiym else beside me; a just ‘Elohiym and a Saviour [#H3467 – yasha]; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am ‘Elohiym, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear [#H7650 – shaba, to seven oneself, that is, swear (as if by repeating a declaration seven times)]. Yasha’yahu [Isaiah] 45:21-23
[Note: “Seven - This number has been called the symbol of…rest. – Easton’s Bible Dictionary]
We propose that if what we have given you as the definition of Yahu’shua were not correct, then the following verses of the Scripture would not be truth, but you decide.
Wherefore Yahuwah also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Yahu’shua every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Yahu’shua, the Messiah, is Lord, to the glory [honour] of Yahuwah the Father. Philippians 2:9-11
This verse from Yahu'el [Joel] is quoted twice in the New Covenant [Testament]. Note well what name it says to call upon!
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Yahuwah [#H3068] shall be delivered… Yahu’el [Joel] 2:32
By putting the name Yahu'shua, which means, "Halloo Yahuwah", in the next two verses, they would precisely match Yahu'el [Joel] 2:32.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Yahu'shua [#H3091 “Halloo Yahuwah”] shall be saved. Act 2:21
For whosoever shall call upon the name of Yahu'shua [#H3091 “Halloo Yahuwah”] shall be saved. Romans 10:13
However, if on the other hand, we put another name there, say JESUS for example, these verses would no longer be saying the same thing and using that name as the source of your salvation might bring Yahu'hanan [John] 5:43 to bear.
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN ‘ELOHIYM. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, Him declare I unto you. Act 17:23
O magnify Yahuwah with me, and let us exalt his name together.
A Psalm of David 34:3
It is done.
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| kevin |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 22:02:50
Well now that is settled .
I speak in the language I know.. bad English,
I am glad Jesus listens and answers, Yehoshua has never refused me on account of my bad English, OR lack of understanding of old languages.
Seems like I have come full circle in this journey, I remember a day when I knew nothing ( not that I know anything now) but things were simple
I commited my way to Him and he made my path straight, in spite of my recklessness.
So much to learn so little time.
thanks Steven |
| BatKol |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 07:59:27
quote:
And, of course, Iesu and Iesus was, we are told, an attempt to transliterate this sycopated word, Y'shua, into Latin. It eventually evolved into the Ibriy/Greek/Latin/English hybrid, and totally meaningless word, JESUS (gee-zus).
Of course, you have been told wrong. Me too. This is one item that I had to eat crow on after I had studied Biblical Hebrew and tried to debate the same position you still put forth. It does not hold water. Using the early Greek LXX OT and the Greek NT is the slam dunk for Iesous but the Yeshua argument can be just as easily established from the later Masoretic (why bother when we have older Greek of both the OT and the NT establishing the antiquity of "Iesous" - both texts being earlier than the Masorah Tanakh).
However, even if you want to go the much later Masoretic Hebrew route instead of the earlier Greek you will find that the name Yeshua is established in the later Biblical Hebrew. Notice that Joshua is also called this name Yeshua while also being called Yehoshua and that in the same verses in the LXX the word Jesus (Iesous) is there. Keep in mind - of course - that there is no "J" in the Hebrew so the "J" would be rendered "Y":
1Ch 24:11 The ninth to Jeshua, the tenth to Shecaniah,
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2Ch 31:15 And next him [were] Eden, and Miniamin, and Jeshua, and Shemaiah, Amariah, and Shecaniah, in the cities of the priests, in [their] set office, to give to their brethren by courses, as well to the great as to the small:
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Ezr 2:2 Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel:
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Ezr 2:6 The children of Pahathmoab, of the children of Jeshua [and] Joab, two thousand eight hundred and twelve.
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Ezr 2:36 The priests: the children of Jedaiah, of the house of Jeshua, nine hundred seventy and three.
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Ezr 2:40 The Levites: the children of Jeshua and Kadmiel, of the children of Hodaviah, seventy and four.
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Ezr 3:2 Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as [it is] written in the law of Moses the man of God.
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Ezr 3:8 Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, began Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the remnant of their brethren the priests and the Levites, and all they that were come out of the captivity unto Jerusalem; and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to set forward the work of the house of the LORD.
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Ezr 3:9 Then stood Jeshua [with] his sons and his brethren, Kadmiel and his sons, the sons of Judah, together, to set forward the workmen in the house of God: the sons of Henadad, [with] their sons and their brethren the Levites.
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Ezr 4:3 But Zerubbabel, and Jeshua, and the rest of the chief of the fathers of Israel, said unto them, Ye have nothing to do with us to build an house unto our God; but we ourselves together will build unto the LORD God of Israel, as king Cyrus the king of Persia hath commanded us.
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Ezr 5:2 Then rose up Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and began to build the house of God which [is] at Jerusalem: and with them [were] the prophets of God helping them.
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Ezr 8:33 Now on the fourth day was the silver and the gold and the vessels weighed in the house of our God by the hand of Meremoth the son of Uriah the priest; and with him [was] Eleazar the son of Phinehas; and with them [was] Jozabad the son of Jeshua, and Noadiah the son of Binnui, Levites;
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Ezr 10:18 And among the sons of the priests there were found that had taken strange wives: [namely], of the sons of Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren; Maaseiah, and Eliezer, and Jarib, and Gedaliah.
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Neh 3:19 And next to him repaired Ezer the son of Jeshua, the ruler of Mizpah, another piece over against the going up to the armoury at the turning [of the wall].
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Neh 7:7 Who came with Zerubbabel, Jeshua, Nehemiah, Azariah, Raamiah, Nahamani, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispereth, Bigvai, Nehum, Baanah. The number, [I say], of the men of the people of Israel [was this];
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Neh 7:11 The children of Pahathmoab, of the children of Jeshua and Joab, two thousand and eight hundred [and] eighteen.
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Neh 7:39 The priests: the children of Jedaiah, of the house of Jeshua, nine hundred seventy and three.
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Neh 7:43 The Levites: the children of Jeshua, of Kadmiel, [and] of the children of Hodevah, seventy and four.
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Neh 8:7 Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people [stood] in their place.
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Neh 8:17 And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness.
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Neh 9:4 Then stood up upon the stairs, of the Levites, Jeshua, and Bani, Kadmiel, Shebaniah, Bunni, Sherebiah, Bani, [and] Chenani, and cried with a loud voice unto the LORD their God.
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Neh 9:5 Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, [and] Pethahiah, said, Stand up [and] bless the LORD your God for ever and ever: and blessed be thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise.
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Neh 10:9 And the Levites: both Jeshua the son of Azaniah, Binnui of the sons of Henadad, Kadmiel;
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Neh 11:26 And at Jeshua, and at Moladah, and at Bethphelet,
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Neh 12:1 Now these [are] the priests and the Levites that went up with Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua: Seraiah, Jeremiah, Ezra,
Here's the definition:
Hebrew for 03442
Pronunciation Guide
Yeshuwa` {yay-shoo'-ah}
TWOT Reference Root Word
Not Available for 03091
Part of Speech
n pr m, n pr loc
Outline of Biblical Usage
Jeshua = "he is saved"
n pr m
1) son of Nun of the tribe of Ephraim and successor to Moses as the leader of the children of Israel; led the conquest of Canaan
2) son of Jehozadak and high priest after the restoration
3) a priest in the time of David who had charge of the 9th course
4) a Levite in the reign of Hezekiah
5) head of a Levitical house which returned from captivity in Babylon
6) father of a builder of the wall of Jerusalem in the time of Nehemiah
So there you have precedent that the name Yeshua (Jeshua) is an established name in Hebrew predating Christ.
Now, having proven that Yeshua is an established name in the Hebrew Bible (especially for Joshua), connect the dots:
Hebrew Yehoshua is also Hebrew Yeshua
Hebrew Yeshua is found as Greek Iesous in the LXX OT.
Greek Iesous is in English Jesus
There is no "sh" sound in the Greek so we rightly have the middle "s" sound in Iesous. The "s" at the end of the Greek name is a grammatical necessity.
So either way you want to go the name Jesus and Yeshua are present. 300 BC Greek LXX or the 900 AD Masoretic text.
quote:
Nomina si nescis perit cognitio rerum. If you know not the names of things, the knowledge of things themselves perishes. Co. Litt. 86.
Well, the Greek NT stands as solid and detailed testimony of the name Iesous so the knowledge of things concerning Him has NOT parished. In fact that name Jesus is called "emmanuel" which means "God is with us". The same Jesus that is a light to the Gentiles and the glory of Israel.
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| BatKol |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 18:23:13
quote:
Originally posted by kevin
But, if anyone thinks it a waste of time to study the names, with particular attention to their meanings, it is certainly their prerogative to do so. They should probably just ignore threads like "His Name is Not Jesus" and "His Name is Not Yahu'shua", if that is the truth of the matter.
agreed, Peace,
kevin
It is a waste of time if one is not willing to REALLY study the topic but rather only looking to find things to support their false assumptions.
Kev, consider these important points nobody seems to bother with:
Jesus spoke Aramaic and most certainly Greek but not the 9th century AD Babylonian Hebrew of the Masorah Tanakh written over 800 years after the fact. Think on that a bit.
In Aramaic His name is Eashoa'. In Greek it is Iesous. No conspiracy at all seeing as the "Toldoth Yeshu" assertion does not even come into this equation until at least hundreds of years later (5 AD at the earliest) but most likely over 1,000 years later with the Jewish persecutions. The Hebrew that oneisraelite is trying to use to make his argument is from the Masoretic OT Tanakh which was written around the 9th Century AD. Christ Himself quotes the Greek LXX OT which was written around 300 BC. Even in that Greek LXX OT, we see IHSOUS (Iesous) in the title of the Book of Joshua. In a word, the Masoretic Hebrew is much later than both Greek and Aramaic that Jesus would have been familiar with!
This whole "blot out the name" argument is quite flawed for those simple points (and more).
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| kevin |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 09:13:41
"...let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name..."
Was this threat to our previous brothers due to the fact that they knew how to say the name or because they lived in the anointing of knowing the one who owned the name?
I could go down the street to the crack house and proclaim to the crack dealer that In the name of Jesus the Christ or YehoShua Ha Maschia I command you to stop dealing crack and they would respond with threats of killing me. Or just sit and laff.
But I can go to a crackhead and speak to him about this Saviour I have found who is wanting to deliver you from addiction and tell him of my experiance or (testimony).
The crack dealers are upset because now I am fighting witn a non carnal weapon.
I am speaking not phoneticaly correct but with simple uneducated words bringing deliverance to captives, Now I tell ya that even crack dealers can recognize a power greater than themselves.I dont fight the dealers or call the government agents to go do my work for me,
If nothing can separate me from His love then nothing can separate me from his love,
I am adopted and I have full rights as a son.
Love you Brother Robert!
Kevin
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| kevin |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 15:50:00
But, if anyone thinks it a waste of time to study the names, with particular attention to their meanings, it is certainly their prerogative to do so. They should probably just ignore threads like "His Name is Not Jesus" and "His Name is Not Yahu'shua", if that is the truth of the matter.
agreed, Peace,
kevin
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| Oneisraelite |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 09:37:57
Greetings and salutations, brother kevin:
Peace be unto the house.
You wrote: Ill take a stab at it...
it aint what come out of your mouth that matters
And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
But, that aside, as we have said many times before it is not the pronunciation of the names that is important; it is the meaning of them which gives us hidden messages.
Take for example: the name of the Creator's only begotten child (the rest of us can be adopted). Evidence indicates that it began as a six letter word, yad hey waw shiyn waw ayin (See H3091), which we transliterate Yahu'shua [yahu is yad hey waw and shua is shiyn waw 'ayin]. (See Strong's H3058 and H7769)
H7769 [shiyn waw 'ayin] shua' BDB Definition: 1) cry, cry for help, cry out
H7769 [shiyn waw 'ayin] shua' Strong's Definition: From H7768; a halloo
HAL'LOO, v.i. To cry out; to exclaim with a loud voice; to call to by name... Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language
H7768 [shiyn waw 'ayin] shava' Strong's Definition: A primitive root; properly to be free; but used only causatively and reflexively to halloo (for help, that is, freedom from some trouble)
Yahu'el [Joel] 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Yahuwah shall be delivered (shall escape)... (See also Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13)
Yahu'shua = halloo Yahuwah = "call on the name of Yahuwah" or "cry out" to Yahuwah "for...freedom".
"...let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name..."
It was then syncopated to Yah'shua and eventually Y'shua supposedly in an attempt to comply with the "ineffable name doctrine" of the Babylonian religion, which Yahudah had brought with them out of their captivity.
SYN'COPATE, v.t. [See Syncope.] To contract, as a word, by taking one or more letters or syllables from the middle. - Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language
And, of course, Iesu and Iesus was, we are told, an attempt to transliterate this sycopated word, Y'shua, into Latin.
It eventually evolved into the Ibriy/Greek/Latin/English hybrid, and totally meaningless word, JESUS (gee-zus).
Nomina si nescis perit cognitio rerum. If you know not the names of things, the knowledge of things themselves perishes. Co. Litt. 86.
But, if anyone thinks it a waste of time to study the names, with particular attention to their meanings, it is certainly their prerogative to do so. They should probably just ignore threads like "His Name is Not Jesus" and "His Name is Not Yahu'shua", if that is the truth of the matter.
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
| kevin |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 21:24:32
Ill take a stab at it...
it aint what come out of your mouth that matters
its what comes out of your heart or spirit or soul or whatever you want to call ,mame or classify it as.
there will always be another question,
dont waste yer time kid.
sincerly,
kevin |
| BatKol |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 08:45:33
quote:
Which is an acronym for “Yemach Shemow W-zikhrow”, meaning, “May His name and memory be erased”, and it was used in the “Toldoth Yeshu”, a very old rabbinical Judaist document that scorned the Anointed. Many still fall for this, calling Him “Yeshua”. - brother Yahuwthah
It is not hard for a good researcher - truly looking for pearls - to think through the math and see that a document such as the "Toldoth Yeshu" written in 500 AD at the very earliest is hundreds upon hundreds of years younger than the Greek Rylands Papyrus (P52) fragment of the book of John dated at 125 A.D. The "Toldoth Yeshu" - on the other hand - is found mostly in Yiddish and Hebrew and considered by most serious scholars to actually be a product of 8th century to 11th century Italy, written during the massive persecution of the Jews.
Indeed, Paul warned us of such Jewish fairytales. We are left wondering why any "serious" Bible researcher would hold anti-Christian Jewish/Yiddish writings above the original Greek source text of NT scripture!
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| BatKol |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 21:15:11
quote:
Originally posted by oneisraelite
[font=Book Antiqua]Greetings and salutations,
Peace be unto the house.
Ever wonder why we can find virtually no secular history on the man called JESUS?
Could any of this be a reason that we can find virtually no secular history on the man called YESHU/YESHUA/IESU/IESUS/JESUS?
Special thanks to my helpmeet for her investigative skills in uncovering, what I perceive to be, a "pearl".
How about some due diligence for this crucial topic. Here's a simple yet very important challenge for one with good investigative skills.
Please show us what secular history you have for which ever name you assert is correct for "Our Wonderful Counselor".
quote:
Moreover, there exists a Jewish Conspiracy where the true name was substituted by:
Yeshuw(a) yad shiyn waw [transliterated in the Greek as Iesu][red]
What is your actual proof that the Greek Iesu is 'transliterated' for Yeshuw? Show us the Biblical NT text that supports your assertion.
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| Oneisraelite |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 07:02:14
Greetings and salutations,
Peace be unto the house.
Ever wonder why we can find virtually no secular history on the man called JESUS?
Try this on for size.
Moreover, there exists a Jewish Conspiracy where the true name was substituted by:
Yeshuw(a) yad shiyn waw [transliterated in the Greek as Iesu]
Which is an acronym for “Yemach Shemow W-zikhrow”, meaning, “May His name and memory be erased”, and it was used in the “Toldoth Yeshu”, a very old rabbinical Judaist document that scorned the Anointed. Many still fall for this, calling Him “Yeshua”. - brother Yahuwthah [Emphasis added]
Nomina si nescis perit cognitio rerum. If you know not the names of things, the knowledge of things themselves perishes. Co. Litt. 86.
Unperson
unperson - Person that has been erased from existence by the government for breaking the law in some way. A unperson is completely erased from history. All records of their existence is removed from record, and all party members are expected to removed them from memory. To mention their name is considered thoughtcrime. This eliminates any possibility of martyrdom. - Newsspeak Dictionary
List of Newspeak Words
Unperson
Unperson is a person who has been "vaporized"; who has been not only killed by the state, but effectively erased from existence. Such a person would be written out of existing books, photographs, and articles so that no trace of their existence could be found in the historical record. The idea is that such a person would, according to the principles of doublethink, be forgotten completely (for it would be impossible to provide evidence of their existence), even by close friends and family members, and mentioning his/her name is thoughtcrime. (The concept that the person may have existed at one time, and has disappeared, cannot be expressed in Newspeak.) Compare to the Stalinist practice of erasing people from photographs after their death.- Wikipedia [Emphasis added]
Did we think that Eric Arthur Blair, better known by his pen name George Orwell, thought this up all by himself?
…damnatio memoriae, was used in the Roman Empire. - Wikipedia [Emphasis added]
We didn't know that, did any of you?
Damnatio memoriae
Damnatio memoriae is the Latin phrase literally meaning "damnation of memory", in the sense of removed from the remembrance. It was a form of dishonor that could be passed by the Roman Senate upon traitors or others who brought discredit to the Roman State. - Wikipedia
Here is a working example...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Arco_degli_Argentarii_-_lato_interno_-_Caracalla_%28and_Geta_erased%29_-_Panairjdde.jpeg (Be sure to read the "Description".)
Could any of this be a reason that we can find virtually no secular history on the man called YESHU/YESHUA/IESU/IESUS/JESUS?
Special thanks to my helpmeet for her investigative skills in uncovering, what I perceive to be, a "pearl".
brother Robert: fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisar'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional STATE OF ISRAEL.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19 |
| adeptuslux |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 16:25:40
LOL, the answer is H2O. The tRUTH will set you free! |
| Oneisraelite |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 07:14:39
Greetings and salutations brothers and sisters,
Peace be unto the house.
I have thanked brother Walter privately for his kind words and have begun answering him privately. As the truth is revealed to us, Yahuwah willing, we will reveal it here.
For now take note of what Walter has shown us; I believe he is equating the names of the Creator and of the first woman (yod,hey,way,hey and hey, waw, hey respectively) with the English transliteration of it, that is to say the four vowels COULD say "I Eve" (IEVE). This concept is, at the very least, quite fascinating.
Since Hawwâh means "living being", is it too far fetched to think that Y'hawwâh (Yahuwâh) may mean, The Living One? We think not!
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional USA.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
An act done by me against my will is not my act. |
| Walter |
Posted - 08 Mar 2005 : 20:38:10
Hi Robert,
Thanks for the information from "Come Out of Her My People," by C.J. Koster and "The Sacred Name," by R. Clover. If you may recall, IAUE is how I spell "the name."
Consider what one gets if one treats YHVH as vowels (rather than consonants): IEVE. Keeping in mind that V can stand for U, which we modern English writers might write as W, what do you think of the 1611 KJV rendering as "iewe" of the modern term "jew?"
Walter |
| Oneisraelite |
Posted - 08 Mar 2005 : 06:04:12
Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
We have been asked to post this information concerning the Name above all names in the open forum. Be aware that it apparently goes, at least in part, against our findings in the opening post. Be that as it may, here is what we have discovered of late, because after all, it is truth which we must seek, and not mere validation of our own stilted opinions.
The Supreme Suveran's [our God's] proper name is made of four Hebrew semi-vowels or vowel/consonants; they are yod, hey, waw, hey. Now, if one looks up, in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible and Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Lexicon, the name that Adam reportedly gave his woman (wife), we find that it is spelled in the Hebrew, hey, waw, hey, the same as the last three letters of the proper name of the Creator (Supreme Suveran). If we look at James Strong's pronunciation of the name of the first woman we see that he claims that it is pronounced khav-vaw'. However, if we go to a more modern source of information, and hopefully one that has accumulated more evidence as to the truth of the matter, here is what we find.
Webster's New World Dictionary of American English, Third College Edition, copyright 1988-96, page 470
Eve [[ME < LL(Ec) Eva, Heva < Heb Hawwâh, lit. life, living being]] [Emphasis added]
Though it didn't come through clearly in this medium, the line over the second "â", in Webster's English transliteration of the Hebrew name of Adam's woman (wife), is a straight line. This is called a pronounciation guide and tells us that the "ah" at the end of this name is pronounced as the English "long a", which of course is an "ay" sound. This, not too surprisingly, matches up perfectly with the "Conclusion" in The Sacred Name [study] by R. Clover, shown above.
It is important too, to notice that there is no "v" sound whatsoever according to the authors of Webster's 1988-96 dictionary, but rather there are two W's, which means that we presumably end up with a word that is pronounced haw-oo-ay'. If this is correct, and we have reason to believe that it is, we have but to put the yod or "Y" sound back on front of this word and we have the pronunciation of the Proper Name of the Creator, the so-called Sacred Name, i.e. ee-haw-oo-ay'. If anyone questions where we got the "oo" sound, try this; say the word "way" very, very slowly (331/3 rpm) and you will hear that the semi-vowel English "W" does indeed (in truth) have the "oo" sound.
Through study we have come to the conclusion that this error of the "V sound" (upper teeth against lower lip) came from transliterating the Hebrew into the Latin. The Roman [LL(Ec)] "V" and "U" were at one time the same letter; " V and U were formerly the same letter, derived no doubt from the oriental vau or waw..." and to further enlighten us Noah Webster (c. 1828) tells us that V.R. in Latin stood for Uti Rotas, pronounced oo-tee thus demonstrating for us that the "V" did indeed have the "U" or "oo" sound [as in the word flute].
P.S. Of late, there has been a person here at ecclesia.org that wishes to label our doctrine for us. For those who are interested in the truth, we are not "Sacred Namers", we are not so-called "Christian Identity", we are of the sect (party) of Naziyrs and our doctrine, if one feels that they must label us, is "Truth Seekers".
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional USA.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
An act done by me against my will is not my act. |
| Oneisraelite |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 15:08:28
An excerpt from another chapter of the above book:
New Standard Bible Dictionary (1936) reveals that Presbyterian and other Christian scholars were aware of how the name Jehovah came into existence:
quote:
The name Jehovah is impossible, according to the strict principles of Heb. vocalization. It is due to the arbitrary transference of the vowels of ‘adhônây, ‘lord,’ to the sacred name [yod, hey, waw, hey] after the Jews became over scrupulous as to the pronunciation of the name.(9)
As time went on the sacredness of the name Jehovah (Yahweh) was increasingly emphasized until at last it was considered profanation to pronounce it even in religious exercises. This avoidance of the name had probably become common usage in New Testament times. In reading the Scriptures, for Yahweh was substituted either ‘Adhônây (Lord) or ‘Elôhîm (God), and at last even in writing the text the vowels of ‘Adhonay were attached to Yahweh making it appear as if it were pronounced Yehôwâh, whence the English ‘Jehovah’. [/font=Book Antiqua][/size=3](10)
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional USA.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
An act done by me against my will is not my act. |
| Oneisraelite |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 12:31:05
Greetings and salutations in the Name of the King, brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
For those who are interested, the following chapter from, The Sacred Name, by R. Clover, is one of the most in depth studies of the name of the Creator that we have found to date: http://www.yahweh.org/publications/sny/sn09Chap.pdf
You will need Acrobat Reader to read this so if you do not have it, here is where you may download a free version of it: http://www.adobe.com/
For those not wishing to read the entire study here for the edification of the body of anointed ones is the conclusion of Chapter IX (9), entitled, Is the Correct Pronunciation Known?:
quote:
Conclusion
The evidence proves that the pronunciation of the sacred name was never lost; it has always been there for anyone willing to seek it out. As Joseph Rotherham conludes, “The exact pronunciation claims a word to itself.” (118) Remarkable is the fact that the four sacred letters forming the sacred name are all vowels, thereby making them free from any need of other vowels to aid in their enunciation. The name stands by itself; a perfect name in its structure. Its original sounds are easily and completely understood by the four vowel letters alone.
Despite the fact that many still try and force the four letters of the sacred name into the role of consonants, and therefore try to place vowels between them, they cannot escape the compelling conclusion that the sacred name is pronounced “Yah-oo-ay.” In English we can transliterate [yod, hey, waw, hey] as “Yahweh” if we understand that our “w” is to be sounded as “oo” and our “eh” as “ay”. Once it is realized that we are dealing with four vowels rather than four consonants, this conclusion becomes inescapable.
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional USA.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
An act done by me against my will is not my act. |
| Oneisraelite |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 08:57:49
Come Out of Her My People, by C.J. Koster
NOTES AND REFERENCES
1 The Scriptural Name of our Heavenly Father, which the Massoretes vowel-pointed to read “Yehowah,” and later on interpreted by some Christian theologians as “Yahweh.” R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer Jnr. and Bruce K. Waltke’s Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, vol. 1, p. 211, says because the word [Name] were spelled with four letters, “we would expect it to have more than two syllables.” Other scholars of Hebrew agree, and therefore do not accept the form “Yahweh,” which only has two syllables, of course. The Yehudim in the Babylonian exile retained the Yahu- (rather than Yeho-) in the Yahwistic names of ordinary people, as we find it in the Marasu texts. Clement of Alexandria also retained the Name for us as he recorded it in Greek a Iaoue (pronounced: Ya-oo-eh), and similarly retained for us in the Ethiopian Apocrypha. This form is also preferred by The Oxford English Dictionary which reproduces it as: IaHUeH, as well as by the French Grande Encyclopedie. The form which the Massoretes left us, namely “Yehowah,” might have been rendered in truth, or else it was done to “disguise” the Name, in accordance with the instruction given in the Mishnaic text of Tamid vii 2 (=Sota vii 6) _ we don’t know for certain. Christian theologians teach that the Name consists of four consonants. However, Josephus, a Jew himself, emphatically stated that the Name “consists of four vowels” (note well: not four consonants). This is therefore often written as IAUE, pronounced Ya-oo-eh. [Color and bolding added]
6 [Yahushua] This is the transliteration of the Name of our Saviour, the form we prefer at present. However, the form “Yehoshua” is the preference of all theological authorities, Bible dictionaries and ordinary encyclopedias. All of them admit that the original Name of “Jesus” was “Yehoshua” or “Jehoshua.” They base their stand on the fact that, whole the Hebrew text calls the successor of Moses “Yehoshua,” the Greek translation of the “Old Testament,” the Septuagint, renders the name of Moses’ successor as “Iesous,” which we call “Jesus” in English. Because of the uncertainty of the Father’s Name being either “Yahuweh” or “Yehowah,” we similarly accept either “Yahushua” or “Yehoshua.” After the partial return of the exiles from Babylonian captivity we find that Moses’ successor was called “Yeshua,” thereby omitting the second and third letters of the name “Yehoshua.” This could have been done because of the avoidance of the Father’s Name since the return from exile, another sign of the post-exilic apostasy. This form “Yeshua” subsequently became used for our Messiah among Jewish believers. However, “Yeshua” is not a personal or proper name, it is merely a common noun meaning “salvation,” and its use as a name had its origin amongst those speaking Aramaic, not Hebrew. Moreover, the name Yeshua does not qualify for being “the Name which is above every name,” neither does it contain the Father’s Name which after all indeed qualifies for being “the Name which is above every name.” One would therefore expect our Messiah’s Name to begin with Yahu- or Yeho-. Anyone can verify the fact of Messiah’s Name (as it was inspired in Hebrew) by looking it up in any authoritative source, such as Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, wherein it is printed as [yod, hey, waw shiyn, ayin].
P.S. Even this [yod, hey, waw shiyn, ayin] is shortened from the original which was [yod, hey, waw shiyn, waw, ayin]
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional USA.
Ephesians 2:12 & 19
An act done by me against my will is not my act. |
| David Merrill |
Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 07:20:45
Upon this subject matter and my insistence on explanation on another Topic here "Expatriation: the Remedy", I will summarize.
By Jewish and probably Israelite convention, when a name has the Yehu suffix used for a prefix, that indicates no theophoric nature in the name. That is to say there is no reference to God in any name beginning with Yehu.
www.ecclesia.org/forum/images/suitors/Yehudah.jpg
Yehudah not theophoric link
This is supported by there being no Yehushuah in any of the standard concordances and the contraction (syncopation) of Yehoshuah to Yehshua is obviously removal of the theophoric nature of that name as well. See Strong's #3091 and #3442.
http://www.direct.ca/trinity/yehoshua.html
link to James D. Price paper on the name Yehoshuah
And note that Dr. Price never mentions moving the Yahu suffix to a prefix. Either he has never heard of the convention or feels it is too insignificant to mention. For whatever reason, it does not get addressed in his paper.
The difference between Yah and Yeh is not argued here. Not by me. It is likely the vowels for Adonah are overlayed upon Yahweh by the Jews in their efforts to avoid using His Name in vain. So the issue I have been debating so vehemently is the insertion of a distinctive vowel sound hoo into prefixes where it is improper to do so; unless of course like Dr. Price points out, to slur the Name of God or the Messiah. Thus it would seem trivial at first glance but very important to me when I see a slur on the Creator promulgated here on these pages.
Now I suppose the argument about Adonah being overlayed on Yahway could be imposed upon the convention above from Encyclopedia Judaica. But that would involve deviation from the common law standards for English interpretation and transliteration of the Bible. I do not advocate doing that because you will almost lose any argument or debate on such shaky foundation. It even smacks of a conspiracy so farfetched as to be conspiracy theory of a paranoid nature.
Regards,
David Merrill.
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| David Merrill |
Posted - 23 Feb 2005 : 13:12:15
Dear Downhomepraise;
I am an advocate of common law. That is to say common agreement. In English-speaking nations when you say Jesus, we all know who you mean. Fine. Strong's, Young's and Richardson's all agree that Yehoshuah is the proper pronunciation for Jesus. Thus no need for me to make my point by writing it for you in big red letters.
The Topic "Original War by Propaganda" endeavors to explore the Pauline heresy that developed Christianity. Since Paul was born in Greek-speaking Cilicia, City of Tarsus, and spent his ministerial campaigns in Asia Minor (Turkey) we have to deal with Greek letters in that context. That is to say, with that question in mind, you should read the Topic - http://ecclesia.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=414&whichpage=1
Which is to say, question the validity of even exploring the Greek interval of translating Hebrew/Aramaic into English. Another way of saying I do not know the answer to your question too. I have the Strong's G#2424 memorized though. It supports that Greek pronunciation for Jesus. I have never seen the significance of whether or not the Greek pronunciation was correct.
Regards,
David Merrill.
P.S. I doubt the above quote is correct:
quote:
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. King James Version
Strong's H#3068 all three occurances of "Lord" which is pronounced Yehovah "yeh-ho-vaw". |
| Oneisraelite |
Posted - 23 Feb 2005 : 11:09:17
Yahu shua; Halloo Yahuwâh (for Freedom)!
Yahu’el [Joel] 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Yahuwâh shall be delivered… (See also Act 2:21 & Romans 10:13)
Believe whom you like, stay with the traditions of men if you so choose, call upon whomsoever you will, it is not a man's place to tell another man what he must do.[/font=Book Antiqua]
fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el,
NOT the man-made, fictional USA.
An act done by me against my will is not my act. |
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