| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| berkano |
Posted - 29 Mar 2003 : 15:25:29
I have some thoughts and questions about the use of Roman Numerals, Roman Dates, etc. I want to use the right method to avoid bad results, and I don't want to be so persnickety that making some small mistake would cause unnecessary alarm. Basically I would like a better understanding of how men in the ecclesia should conduct their writing in a Lawful manner.
One. I notice that the Non-Statutory Abatement rests on one point that the date and numbering formats used by the Roman courts and agencies are foreign to our Lawful Christian venue, and not recognized. Being that in the superior Court these marks are considered unlawful and void, is that to mean that we should *never* use this type of dating and numerals? For instance, if I am keeping a personal diary and I date the entries in DD/MM/YYYY format, does that indicate my diary is part of a commercial activity that I am engaged in? What about the use of the same practice in writing letters or anything else that is not specifically a legal document? If some government agent stole my diary and it had Roman-style dating on the entries, would this indicate that the de facto government somehow has some twisted formula to use this for jurisdiction over me?
Two. Use of Roman names for months. If I date something by using the Roman name for a month [for example, "The first day of August"] would that be wrong to do? Should Christians write out all dates on everything without exception, and if so, why, and what does this accomplish for him/her?
Three. Use of a private shorthand and a private date format. Let's assume I invent my own private shorthand for writing notes, dates, and other things that I do not intend for public consumption, and I invent an abbreviated dating format, or even an abbreviation or symbol to stand for something like the phrase, "The Lord, Jesus the Christ." I know that many during the middle ages considered writing, especially writing with uncommon characters, to be a mark of evil power or witchcraft. Can some inherent evil be assumed from a practice such as this?
Four. Use of a private language and grammar format for brevity. Let's assume that I use a private, redacted form of English or some other language that makes writing significantly faster than regular English usage. Would this practice have any potential wrong in it? What if the language is very exact and legalistic, leaving little or no room for error or misunderstanding of meaning?
Five. Things and practices to avoid. What things and practices should be specifically avoided, and under which circumstances?
Six. Use of receipts. I read somewhere (can't remember where) that one should not make use of receipts when buying or selling anything. Is there some reason one should not keep store receipts for items purchased?
-- Berkano |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Manuel |
Posted - 16 Feb 2004 : 20:08:15
Robert-James,
The name, Manuel, is passed on to me from my earthly father. My last known ancestor (grandfather)was from Santander on Spain, which is on the north. His name was Antonio. From my earthly mother it was of the Canary Islands (south). Many a time, I have wondered past their ancestry, but seems that conquests and migration has cast shadows over that knowledge.
Many times I have ended my signature with the words, "Dios con vosotros," meaning, "God is with us," instinctively understanding what Emmanuel stands for. Using the Spanish language, "El" can be used as "El Señor" or "El Caballo," or "El Mesias." Now... moon is feminine, so we say, "La Luna."
Sun is masculine, so we say, "El Sol."
El Mesias está con vosotros,
Manuel |
| Robert-James |
Posted - 16 Feb 2004 : 19:14:54
Greetings Man-u-El. Ever thought of adding an E to your given name? Eman-u-El?
Yes, to use the moon's reflected Light, is confusion. Unless one is digging fence posts, or talking about a wo-man's monthly cycle...of which We are not.
Until the Day Star arise in Our Hearts........ |
| Manuel |
Posted - 16 Feb 2004 : 14:58:33
I greet you In His name Yahushuah,
I heard that there are thirteen full moons during said year. Now... if the time is counted on thirteen moons per so-called "year," then time, as per worldly calendar is way past its due course.
Please bare with me if I write ignorantly, and/or arrogantly at times, or seems that way... for I am a lost sheep finding my way to His House. One matter I am sure of, and that is that these are wicked times we are observing, and as the pot boils, the scum gets thicker.
In Him, I am, His Will,
Manuel |
| Robert-James |
Posted - 16 Feb 2004 : 10:35:27
Greetings to all those of the Commonwealth of Israel. It was Yahushuah's great desire that we might all be One.
The sabbath day of weekly rest; work six days and then observe the sabbath, which is eternal, and symbolic of the Rest we enter into, by doing our Father's will, and not our will.
Seems the SYSTEM allows us to pick either SATURDAY or SUNDAY, {FRIDAY for Muslims}.
We have been observing the spring equinox for eighteen years now as being the the first day of a new year. Fourteen days later...passover, which Paul kept...if at all possible, in Yerusalem. All males are to appear before YaHuWeH three times a year, passover, pentacost, tabernacles. Why, many reasons, the first being, "it is written". Secondly, the heritage message of being Israelites won't be lost, or stolen, by the Rev. 2:9 and 3:9 false Yudahites.
It is up to YaHuWeH to hide a matter, and kings search it out. {a nation of king-priests}
Any good store bought calendar has the four quarters...seasons, already marked out for us. Just take the spring equinox marker day, count to seven days, and presto, the seventh day is a sabbath day. The first day of fall will be the day of blowing of trumpets, and following the written instructions by Moses, the day of atonement and tabernacles will be found. Do this for yourselves, and keep common sense available.
Now, one will not fit into the SYSTEM very well by living this Way. Your children will not fit into the SCHOOL SYSTEM'S HOLIDAY schedule. And if one works within BABYLON, the employer mosy likely will not allow this rotating sabbath, and a few weeks off for passover and tabernacles. [unless the MASTER is a pretty understanding person].
Father wants His Children out of mystery babylon, and to follow His Way, will be an irritation to our old ways...the old man nature wants the easy way. This irritation within us, will produce that Pearl of Great Price.
p.s. sabbath is a weekly day. Sabbaths are His feast days. I know many who attempt to keep a sabbath day weekly. How many keep His sabbaths?
Yahushuah certainly did. And He is the pattern Son. The firstborn of many.
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| Servant of All |
Posted - 16 Feb 2004 : 01:15:46
Marty,
Thank you for your instructive response. I am deeply interested in any thing that would contribute to a more informed obedience to the Father in Heaven and His Son. Therefore, I appreciate your observations and transliteration of the Holy Scriptures in this matter. I am examining Exodus 12:2 as I write. May I ask how we are to know that "this month..." means the spring equinox ('March' 21?)?
May God Almighty bless you richly as you trust and obey Him more today!
In His service,
Philip the least |
| Cornerstone Foundation |
Posted - 16 Feb 2004 : 00:00:54
quote:
Originally posted by Servant of All
Robert-James and Marty;
If the lunar calendar is a corrupt measurement, what current measurement will assure correct sabbath and feast celebration? I ask this humbly and with open ears and heart.
Reconcile with your Creator. May God Almighty bless you richly as you trust and obey Him more today!
In His service,
Philip the least
Philip:
After a significant amount of study and prayer in the past to obtain, for ourselves, the answer to the question you have posed above...we are currently keeping what we believe to be Yahweh's Sabbath based on the ancient Hebrew solar calendar which is based off Exodus 12:2 and the spring equinox. (We will be pleased to provide more details if you wish.)
We perceive that our study has not been exhaustive and therefore there is more we need to learn concerning these matters.
If someone can show us, based on authoritive information, that we are in error, we are willing to amend our ways.
We have not taken the positions we have taken lightly. We believe that we have sound reasons for doing what we are doing.
We do however have some unanswered questions that we are hopeful of finding answers to.
Perhaps Yahweh will use one or more of the sincere people that post to the forums in ecclesia.org to help us.
We are willing to present what we know and what we think we understand about this issue...we don't feel we are certain enough to "teach" about this...but are interested in engaging in an exchange by which we may learn.
Philip, we appreciate the Spirit that we perceive is working in you and motivating you to have a love for the truth.
For some reason we perceive that the calendar issue is very important.
Best Regards,
Marty |
| Servant of All |
Posted - 15 Feb 2004 : 00:50:18
Robert-James and Marty;
If the lunar calendar is a corrupt measurement, what current measurement will assure correct sabbath and feast celebration? I ask this humbly and with open ears and heart.
Reconcile with your Creator. May God Almighty bless you richly as you trust and obey Him more today!
In His service,
Philip the least |
| BatKol |
Posted - 14 Feb 2004 : 22:48:24
Robert-James said: BATKOL, one man fathered the Israelite nation, physically. Yacob/Israel.
BatKol: True in that context. But what about your original statement?? Let me be clear. You mean to tell us that all Israelites that came forth after entering the promise land came from only two men? |
| Robert-James |
Posted - 14 Feb 2004 : 15:52:58
Greetings Marty,
I have a translated dopy of the Book of Jubilees by Rev. George H. Schodde Ph.D. It varies a little from the one you quoted. Chapter vi. verse xxxiv...and there will be those who will make observations of the moon,for this one {the moon}corrupts the stated times and comes out earlier each year by ten days. {35] And in this way they will corrupt the years and will observe the wrong day as the day of testimony and a corrupted festival day, and everyone will mix the holy days with unclean ones and unclean with holy; for they will err as to months and sabbaths and festivals and jubilee's.
The book of John mentions "the Last Day" eight times. As a reminder of the Last Day Judgement, a sacred year has an extra last day, to make the 364 + one day a complete year.
Since this year has two last days {leap year} added to keep the calendar correct...some inquiring minds question why and the cryptic? meaning. I have an opinion, which may or may not be truth.
Seems as if all RELIGIONS use the moon, i.e. Christian-Muslim-Rabbinic Jews. |
| Cornerstone Foundation |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 23:53:47
Cornerstone Foundation Post Number 44:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert-James
Anyone for Hebrews 6:1? And to setting the calendar and dates?
Is the following information from Jubilees 2:9-10 and Jubilees 6:30b-38 information that can be relied upon?
And (Yahweh) appointed the sun to be a great sign on the earth for days and for sabbaths and for months and for feasts and for years and for sabbaths of years and for jubilees and for all seasons of the years.
And all the days of the commandment will be two and fifty weeks of days, and (these will make) the entire year complete. Thus it is engraven and ordained on the heavenly tablets. And there is no neglecting (this commandment) for a single year or from year to year.
And command thou the children of Israyl that they observe the years according to this reckoning-three hundred and sixty-four days, and (these) will constitute a complete year, and they will not disturb its time from its days and from its feasts; for everything will fall out in them according to their testimony, and they will not leave out any day nor disturb any feast.
But if they do neglect and do not observe them according to His commandment, then they will disturb all their seasons and the years will be dislodged from this (order), [and they will disturb the seasons and the years will be dislodged] and they will neglect their ordinances. And all the children of Israyl will forget and will not find the path of the years,and will forget the new moons, and seasons, and sabbaths and they will go wrong as to all the order of the years.
For I know and from henceforth will I declare it unto thee, and it is not of my own devising; for the book (lies) written before me, and on the heavenly tablets the division of days is ordained, lest they forget the feasts of the covenant and walk according to the feasts of the Gentiles after their error and after their ignorance.
For there will be those who will assuredly make observations of the moon - how it disturbs the seasons and comes in from year to year ten days too soon.
For this reason the years will come upon them when they disturb (the order), and make an abominable (day) the day of testimony,and an unclean day a feast day, and they will confound all the days, the holy with the unclean, and the unclean day with the holy; for they will go wrong as to the months and sabbaths and feasts and jubilees.
For this reasonI command and testify to thee that thou mayest testify to them; for after thy death thy children will disturb (them), so that they will not make the year three hundred and sixty-four days only, and for this reason they will go wrong as to the new moons and seasons and sabbaths and festivals, and they will eat all kinds of blood with all kinds of flesh.
Marty |
| Manuel |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 23:32:13
Greetings In His name Yahushuah,
Robert-James, It is truth. When one reaches the turning point whereby disobedience to "that thing" which is "rotten to the core," is understood to be invented to regulate, administer, push, shove, and attempt to inflict restrictions whereby many dread to thread on, only then can We understand.
The BEASTS MARK has turned hu-mans to "CONE-HEADS."
Let the dead bury the dead.
His Grace and Light be upon you and His House,
I am, In Him, through His Will,
Manuel |
| Robert-James |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 22:33:17
BATKOL, one man fathered the Israelite nation, physically. Yacob/Israel.
Walter, Yahushuah still had the baptism to be baptised with...way after John the water dunker. Luke 12:49-50. Plain and simple, from the Master's mouth.
You boys lose those MARKS of the world, and all this will become plain and simple. {oh I can't loose my LICENSE, caesar will get mad at my disobedience}. Yahuweh can still set a fine table in the wilderness. {but caesar Bush makes it all easier}.
Anyone for Hebrews 6:1? And to setting the calendar and dates?
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| BatKol |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 22:25:37
Manuel, sage advice! Thanks |
| Manuel |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 21:19:54
Greetings In His name Yahashuah, The Messiah,
There was a turning point on understanding the pasage where a woman came to
Father asking Him to settle a dispute whereby He told the wo-man, "I am not here to settle your disputes."
Keep your eyes on and your ears open.
I am, In Him, if His Will only,
Manuel |
| BatKol |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 20:18:02
RObert-James said: Six hundred thousand men came out of Egypt. Two men made it into the promised land.
BatKol: How can this be? Clearly more than two men fathered the Israelite Nation!! The post that Walter added concerning Joshua(Thanks!) shows that the children did make it. These included those children of the mixed multitudes who agreed with the Torah convenant, no?
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| Walter |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 19:27:09
quote:
Originally posted by Robert-James
Greetings in the righteous name of El Elyon.
Well, common sense says so. If we all, would only read scripture and think at the same time...all of us.
Six hundred thousand men came out of Egypt. Two men made it into the promised land. The rest must have died in their wilderness walk. Moses and Aaron did not make the grade. Though they were wonderful men, in respects, they lacked "something"...all for our edification...to learn from their mistakes. Now, what were the MISTAKES of Moses and Aaron. Inquiring minds want to know. Yahushuah stated that "there are many things I need to tell you, but you can't bear them...yet".
One entering into the Kingdom is greater than John the baptiser. Wow!!! Since there is but one baptism...it must be of Fire and not water. For some reason, Rome lays claim to all baptised in water! Right or wrong, it is food for thought.
Joshua 5:
4* And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.
5* Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.
6* For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
7* And their children, whom he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.
Thus showing that those that came out of Egypt died in the wilderness.
I cannot agree baptism is of fire; Jesus was baptised in the river Jordan - we are to follow Him. (And I believe the baptism by fire will be in the lake of fire, for those who reject the water baptism, fwiw.) |
| Robert-James |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 19:16:33
Greetings in the righteous name of El Elyon.
Well, common sense says so. If we all, would only read scripture and think at the same time...all of us.
Six hundred thousand men came out of Egypt. Two men made it into the promised land. The rest must have died in their wilderness walk. Moses and Aaron did not make the grade. Though they were wonderful men, in respects, they lacked "something"...all for our edification...to learn from their mistakes. Now, what were the MISTAKES of Moses and Aaron. Inquiring minds want to know. Yahushuah stated that "there are many things I need to tell you, but you can't bear them...yet".
One entering into the Kingdom is greater than John the baptiser. Wow!!! Since there is but one baptism...it must be of Fire and not water. For some reason, Rome lays claim to all baptised in water! Right or wrong, it is food for thought.
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| Walter |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 19:15:45
quote:
Originally posted by BatKol
Walter: I have read your essay. Sorry it took so long to get back to you. My time is very limited right now. I agree there is a great deal of conflicting accounts per the implimentation of the set-apart times. Scholars have been commenting on this em mass for quite sometime. My original question still stands. Where does the Torah instruct that Abib is the vernal equinox and why is it NOT the new moon. Every translation I have ever read thus far renders "new moon" when dealing with the calander. I have read many essays on the solar calander but I have not found one that is as 'convincing' as the one written by Nehemiah Gordon. No one is willing to refute it here which is a shame since this site has such a high traffic rate. It is a very important topic.
No problem about the time - I understand being busy.
I disagree that there are conflicting accounts on Christ's last passover. No conflict at all; there were two celebrations of passover, and Jesus kept it correctly. The account in John is really not confusing at all, because he clearly calls it the jewish (read: Pharisee) passover.
I prefer to examine the original Hebrew when figuring out why there are apparent discrepencies in the OT. I'm convinced a chodesh is a thirty-day month which ignores the lunar phase.
I might turn around your question to ask where the Torah says the year starts of the first new moon after the vernal equinox (VE)? Even the lunar calendar uses the VE! The evidence for using the VE is first in Genesis 1:14-16, recognizing that a 'light' there is something that *produces* light - the moon merely reflects it. Second, in that IAUE (God) commanded in Exodus 12:2 " 2* This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you." The Egyptians kept / keep a month tied to a rising star - this is "solar" - dealing with Earth's revolving about the sun; there's nothing in the Bible telling the state of the moon(yarech) in that story. The history of the calendar suggests the VE was used (link previously given). And when one's all done examining it, the moon just doesn't make the calendar work.
Gordon's next big play is on Psalms 104:
19 ¶ He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.
20 Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth.
21* The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from God.
22* The sun ariseth, they gather themselves together, and lay them down in their dens.
23* Man goeth forth unto his work and to his labour until the evening.
Summary: the moon is a dumb rock to light the night (celebrations at night!?!) while the sun is attributed the characteristic of knowledge! Which one is higher?! The sun. Next we read the moon and night are for the beasts, while the sun and the day are for men. This yells "use the sun" to me.
The Biblical calendar is a subject open to many differing viewpoints, but, again, I say that once one researches it all, lays out all the feasts and figures it out: it is solar.
Walter |
| BatKol |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 19:06:05
Marty said: Hebrews 9:22 states: For to bind anything by the Law it must be purged with blood; so without shedding of blood (there) is no remission (forgiveness of sins).
BatKol: Here is the problem. YHWH, again and again, through out scripture says he does not desire vicarious atonement. Let's start
another thread for just this topic. I seriously doubt that Paul actually said the above considering the part that is quoted is taken from Lev 17. If Paul was really the Torah scholar he claims, how did he miss the part where the grain offering was an acceptable sacrifice
for those who could not afford an animal? Also, David was forgiven of his murder of Uriah with out blood. In fact he was specifically told it was not nessisary... YHWH also said in the prophets that He never commanded a sacrifice upon coming out of Egypt... hmmmmmm.
There are parts between the NT and the OT that don't match up. This is a big one. I am totally open to re-considering this position IF these contradictions can be cleared up. Let's call the new thread "Forgiveness".. I'll write an opening statement and we can start a nice study on the topic.
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| Cornerstone Foundation |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 18:50:39
Cornerstone Foundation Post Number 43:
quote:
Originally posted by BatKol
BatKol: This is YHWH's salvation program. No blood needed (Isaiah 1:11).
Batkol: We respectfully disagree. Perhaps the above statement is too broad and may mislead readers of this forum. Please clarify your intent in making that staement.
Our understanding is that the covenant Yahshua ushered in was a "renewed" covenant.
The form of Yahweh's sacrifical requirements has changed but the substance has not changed.
A blood sacrifice is still required...but now rather than the blood of bulls or goats the requirement is that we rely on the sacrifice of Yahweh's unblemished Lamb, Yahshua.
Hebrews 9:22 states: For to bind anything by the Law it must be purged with blood; so without shedding of blood (there) is no remission (forgiveness of sins).
Hebrews 9:26b explains: ...but now once, for all in the end of the age; He has appeared to do away with sin, by the sacrifice of Himself.
Revelation 1:5b: ...Unto him (Yahshua Messiah) that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.
Marty
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